FaithManor Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 (edited) Hi everyone, We arrived home yesterday around 3:00 p.m. from M.T.U. We laid over Saturday evening in Mackinaw City because Dh and I were dog tired and didn't feel like driving the rest of the way. We stayed at the Best Western on the waterfront where the indoor pool and jacuzzi were exactly what we needed! I think I'll start with the cons which doesn't seem fair to the school. However, this institution is so different from typical state u's and has a couple of negatives that would be big red flags for a paticular type of student, that I thought I'd mentioned those upfront so if your student falls into those categories, you do not have to wade through the rest of the reviews. Cons: It is VERY far north. I can't emphasize that enough for students who do not love winter. 150-200 inches of snow per year are the norm. They celebrate it, love it, and make it an adored part of everyday life for the students. If you have a map handy or want to pull one up to the computer, MTU is in the peninsula on the far west of the upper peninsula and juts into Lake Superior. It is a four hr. drive to Duluth, MN but only two hrs. "as the crow flies", however ferry service to Duluth is not provided. It is closer to drive to from Chicago than Detroit! The peninsula is bisected by a narrow river - Portage - that was dredged out for shipping which allowed freighters to go through instead of around the peninsula...a very wise idea since the weather and currents around the tip are terrible and during the "old days" would have caused mayhem for many ships. Thus, the town of Hancock and the rest of the peninsula are only connected by a bridge! Seasonal Affective Disorder is watched for very carefully by the staff and faculty. It is not uncommon for students to have full spectrum lighting desk and floor lamps in their rooms and the campus docs prescribe a LOT of large vitamin D doses. There is information conveniently located around the campus about the condition and the faculty, RA's and RD's are trained to spot those who might suffer from it. If I already had a student who struggled with this type of condition, I would not recommend sending them to MTU. Sunrise, this past Friday morning, was 8:22 a.m. Students were walking to their 8 a.m. classes in the pitch black. The town of Houghton is pretty much isolated. It's two hours to Marquette to get to the nearest mall. The peninsula never fully recovered from the loss of Copper mining and the shrinking of lumbering though there is new uranium mining coming to the area. So, life is slow, predictable, unhurried...not a lot of zip and pizzazz. There is a Walmart, two very good size supermarkets, pharmacies, speciality stores that cater to students, etc. But, the real life in that town is built around outdoor sports. Skiing, snowshoing, snowmobiling (yes, you can bring your snowmobile to school...they encourage it), biking, shooting/hunting, fishing, hiking, hockey (Division 1 though all of their other sports are Division 2), snow sculpting, and rock climbing. For an outdoorsy student who is willing to have his/her entire social life provided by the college, for the bookwork student, for the nerd, the geek, the serious student...this is the school for them. It is difficult for me to imagine that a social butterfly, much less one who is uninterrested in a close-knit, small community, would be very happy there. The Humanities department is VERY SMALL. As in, they have what they need for general education studies and anthropology/archaeology (which is an excellent program by the way with research options beginning in the freshman year, study abroad, ongoing digs in the penninsula and across Michigan/Wisconsin/Minnesota), and not much else. We attended "The Musical Comedy of Murders 1940" in the theater/performing arts center on Friday evening. It is obvious that the theater exists for the sound technology/lighting and effects engineering/set design majors. As a result, the lighting, sound, and effects were very well done and set was excellent! However, the acting...well, it's a young group and no depth. I'm not saying they did a poor job. We were well entertained and happy we attended. But, it was a performance with some obvious issues. As for music, students can join the Keewenaw Symphony Orchestra which would be similar to any smaller city orchestra whose players were good high school/college performers, but who did not necessarily major in music and have other full time jobs...the orchestra being their hobby. They are now providing lessons on campus for a variety of instruments but since this is not a music school, these are provided by non-college teachers that come to campus from the community. If one were a well accomplished student, I think it would be hard to find an appropriate level of teaching. Ds hopes that if he attends there, they will be able to find a classical guitar teacher. Given the level of playing ds will be tackling by then, I have my doubts that one of that ability will be found in such a remote area. General Information: The school has approximately 7000 students. It holds the current world records for "most participants in a snowball fight, simultaneously" (over 3000), "the most participants making snow angels simultaneously" (nearly 4000), and "the world's largest snowball" which was approximately 21 1/3 feet in circumference. Winter carnival - since students are usually snowed in and can't go home - is a HUGE deal. Broomball (think hockey without ice skates and in boots or tennis shoes out on the main ice area, brooms, and a ball....play hockey!), human bowling (absolutely HILARIOUS), and snow carving are just a few of the activities. The students work for a month with each dorm providing sculptures. By senior year, these kids are pretty good at it. We saw pictures of Hogwart's Castle, Narnia, cathedrals, etc. all out of snow. The town loves the students. There is a feeling of adoption there. The school creates many opportunities for the town to volunteer to do nice things for the students and in return, the students have several volunteer days (this past Saturday was one). Typically, the students help do yard work and home repairs for the elderly and infirm or work on a public works, assist the park rangers with projects, etc. Our tour guide, a junior civil engineering major, spent Labor Day weekend with a bunch of other students painting an elderly woman's home. Knowing that the outdoor life is the primary outlet for the students when they need a break from work, the college makes it easy for students to this. Not only will they find it easy to get transportation anywhere they'd like to go outside of town for exploration, but for $69.00 per semester, the student gets access to a huge amount of equipment - camping, skiing, snowshing, fishing gear, etc. plus free entrance to all of the sporting events, musical performances, theater events, etc. on campus. Since the theater troupe is a bit fledgling, outside talent is flown in regularly. They have stand up comics, magicians, professional music groups, dance troupes, etc. The Russian Ballet will be there in January. MTU is the 3rd safest campus in the United States. As several residents told us, nothing bad happens here. Students reiterated often that they walk everywhere at all hours of the day and night, and NOTHING every happens. Certainly one can request a security escort...this service is provided. However, we met several female students and none felt the need. Theft is pretty well non-existent according to the police department. I'd say that PD spends most of it's time on rescue/assistance calls than on crime. They patrol heavily during the storms because the roads are isolated, traffic is not regular, and being stranded is dangerous. So, they encourage students not to go driving in the winter outside of town and into the fishing/camping/skiing wilderness alone, keep their cell phones charged, flares handy, blankets and water always in the back seat, etc. Lots and lots of winter safety advice is handed out to incoming freshman. This is a tier 1 uni that hovers, depending on the year, between 112 -130 of the top 200 in the states and remains in the top 300 in the world. They have a 95% placement rate for employment in the graduate's field, grad school, or military within 6 months of graduation. The Air Force and Army ROTC is very active on this campus thus the military entrance included in the placement numbers. They boast the 12th highest entrance salaries of college graduates in the US and currently have nearly 300 companies actively working with students on research projects. Do not look at this school if your student is uninterested in research. Students begin, generally, in research as freshman and have a rather large, somewhat formidable, research project that is due in order to graduate...doesn't matter what your major is...that's the rule. The student could be a 4.0 going into that senior year and if they flub the research, say hello to a 5th year because said student will not be graduating. They take their research seriously there. The school's reputation is such that pre-med graduates have direct admittance to Michigan State University for med school. Our second tour guide, a senior pre-med student, will be attending MSU. His MCAT score was huge and he was offered positions at some bigger named med schools. However, he wants to practice family medicine and really likes State's internal medicine department which I have heard they are well known for so suprisingly, he turned down U of M. It's a STEM school top to bottom. It feels like a STEM school and everyone acts that way. Even the Greek Houses are described as, according to the bank manager across the street, "quiet and studious". I'll post more in a second post as this is getting long! :D Faith Edited October 29, 2012 by FaithManor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 (edited) Part 2 Pros: The Student/Faculty ratio is approximately 1:15. The largest class, a gen ed that everyone takes, can run up to 100 people which is about the maximum seating of the largest lecture hall. The average class size is less than 25. They never cancel a class unless not one single student signs up. If you sign up as the lone student, the professor will meet with you for the semester and teach you one-one. Their philosophy is that no student should have to delay graduation or continuing their path just because others did not register for the course. Thus, except those students that are maybe double or triple majoring, or studying abroad, graduating in four years is the norm providing one doesn't fail classes. Speaking of failure, they take a dim view of it. They expect their students to study and make it through, but they also provide a LOT of help with that. The math, physics, and chemistry study labs are open practically night and day with properly vetted upper classmen, TA's, and professors staffing it all.the.time. Private tutoring is free - just a part of your tuition - though students who tutor through the service are paid nicely for it. Other study groups and labs exist for different disciplines and one can EASILY find help on this campus. Once a student's grade falls to a C in any course, they begin receiving daily email from the dean's office outlining their options for getting assistance, but most importantly, offering them personal guidance and care if they are having a personal problem. The dean has an open door policy and many of the professors do as well. They have a community mental health center on campus and make it easy to access assistance. Obviously, not everyone will avail themselves of these services, but their stats indicate that a good many do. There is a "rest area", I'm not kidding, in the main computer science hall. Since it's readily recognized that programmers tend to burn the midnight oil if they are on a roll coding (dh does this and always has), then head to class first thing in the morning, they provide a quiet lounge to crash in. When we popped our heads inside, three students were sleeping with their laptops still on their laps and running. It is apparently common for them to go have a nap after class or to come spend the wee hours programming there since the school also takes a very dim view of annoying one's roomate! It doesn't take top stats to get scholarships. Good stats, but not the top. However, they are looking for a certain type of student, a driven, independent thinker with a creative mind. The top money goes to those kinds of students. They give out 30 full scholarships to Michigan residents and 10 to out-of-staters each year and these, while definitely ACT scores and AP's are looked at, are largely dependent on A. excellent essays, and B. serious extra-curriculars and by that, not sports or music. They are actually looking more for science fair awards, leadership recommendations, academic project recognition, etc. There were 30 students taking tours that day and when we were all together at the beginning, the admins began asking the kids individually what they were involved in besides school, nearly every single student said basketball, music lessons, etc. They would receive a nod and a "that's nice" type comment. Ds, when asked, described his TARC 10th place finish with the rocketry team, 4-H youth Leadership award, Science Fair wins, and Best of Show Award in Technology for his computer programming. He ended up being introduced to the head of admissions as well as the dean, the chair of the Computer Science department, and the chair of the anthropology/archaeology department (his chosen minor). It was obvious what they were looking for in their students and ds was the only non-high school senior in the group. I had not expected that much interest in him yet. They do offer sports scholarships, in particular for hockey their only division 1 sport, but they are not what I would call a "sports" school, and certainly not in the same way that U of M or MSU are. Ds and Dh attended a computer software lab that was focused on group projects. The professor did take a few minutes to talk with ds and then placed him with a student group to observe. This was a freshman class, introductory programming, and it was typical of an intro to programming course, but well below what ds is already doing as a programmer. The professor did tell dh that ds would be allowed to skip that course and move into higher levels. Dh assured him that ds would be taking the AP Computer Science Exam this May, but the professor told him that while they'd love to see that on his transcript, the reality is his portfolio of coding projects (which ds just happened to have with him :D), was more than enough proof that he would need more advanced freshman courses. The school is, happily, VERY HOMESCHOOL FRIENDLY! They had nothing but good things to say about the independent work ethic, high academic achievement, and character of the homeschoolers they've accepted. This will be an extremely easy school for us to navigate the application/admission process with and while they do like to see two AP's, especially one of the science ones, they do not require it. Foreign language in high school is not required either and they have a very, uhmmm...well, apathetic attitude towards that. Two admins told me that three or four years of foreign language on a transcript that does not include science electives, is a nick against the application. They prefer to see students who managed 4 years of math and science and then took more science as electives or fit in time for science/math related extra-curriculars. So, it's great for the student who manages the foreign langauge and all of the math and science, but actually counter productive for the applicant that went the typical high school route of three science, three or four math, and three years of foreign language. While U of M and MSU state that four years of math is ideal, but only three are required, I can tell you that this school would not be impressed by that. Pre-Calc is the lowest math they'll accept an applicant with and probably half or more of incoming freshman have had Calc 1 though they do not expect to see the AP necessarily. They will give credit for a 4 or 5 on the AP, however, only after a talk with the math department because they want to be certain the student is truly ready for calc 2 and will not struggle. Better to just retake Calc 1 if there is any hint of uncertainty. To be honest, give how many honors classes and advanced courses have been drummed out of our local schools due to budget cuts and moving resources to "remediation", I do not see this school as an option for even the best and brightest of our county's PS grads. All in all, a great visit! This is ds's #1 choice, of course this is also his first college visit so I have to constantly remind him that he might fall in love with another institution and not to get so set early on. It's also a safety school for him in terms of his stats and accomplishments so admission is not an issue, but of course, we'll wait to see where those scholarships fall. They have a number of good ones, however, we've told ds that he can't be so set on any institution that he'd be brutally disappointed if his "chosen" one did not offer enough merit aid. He's looking at all tier 1 uni's with highly rated computer science departments so he cannot go wrong if he lands somewhere else with more merit money so long as he keeps his emotions and expectations in check. Since the 529 took a nose dive of catastrophic proportions when dd was a high school senior and we had to cash it out absorbing HUGE losses, he has to remember that he'll get at most, $5500.00 - $6000.00 a year from us and possibly a little less his sophomore year when his next youngest brother enters college and we have two at once. So, he needs good aid. On that note, looking at the clock, it's time to get him to stop staring morosely at his art history essay, and move on to another AP U.S. History practice. So far, he's been scoring 5's in the Princeton book and 4's in the Barron's with my extra-critical self giving him mid-range (c's) on the free writing portion. According to the scoring rubric, he'd still earn a 4. So, if this hold true, I'll be happy. Maybe he'll get a less fussy grader for the writing portion and get a 5! At any rate, I've got to take this very tired child, and find some way to light a fire under him today. He's got a full plate, rocket team coming tonight to work on a design issue, and the entire team has to work on their presentation for M.S.U. 4-H leadership on the 10th of November. No rest for the weary mom or student. Faith Edited October 29, 2012 by FaithManor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 This is a fascinating review, Faith. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkateLeft Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I second every thing you've said! That was our experience with the school also. We were in Kansas City this past week, visiting another engineering program that is offering my dd a large scholarship, but when we left she still insisted that Michigan Tech is her first choice. They are very homeschool friendly. During one of our stays in Houghton, I was talking to some of the admissions folks and mentioned that we'd pursued dual enrollment in order to validate my daughter's "mommy grades." They assured me that they don't view homeschool grades as being any less valid than grades on a traditional public school transcript. That was very encouraging! After applying, my daughter received her acceptance a couple of weeks after they received all our materials, so they have a fairly quick turn around on applications. Their scholarship application is due by October 15th, which is considerably earlier than some other schools, so that's something to keep in mind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kareni Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 What a comprehensive review, Faith. It sounds like an intriguing university with lots to offer to the right student. Best wishes to your son. Regards, Kareni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acorn Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 So glad you had a good visit; it is a place very near to my heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 I second every thing you've said! That was our experience with the school also. We were in Kansas City this past week, visiting another engineering program that is offering my dd a large scholarship, but when we left she still insisted that Michigan Tech is her first choice. They are very homeschool friendly. During one of our stays in Houghton, I was talking to some of the admissions folks and mentioned that we'd pursued dual enrollment in order to validate my daughter's "mommy grades." They assured me that they don't view homeschool grades as being any less valid than grades on a traditional public school transcript. That was very encouraging! After applying, my daughter received her acceptance a couple of weeks after they received all our materials, so they have a fairly quick turn around on applications. Their scholarship application is due by October 15th, which is considerably earlier than some other schools, so that's something to keep in mind! Thanks for pointing the scholarship deadline out! There were two juniors in the bunch, and the rest were seniors, most of whom had already applied and sent in their scholarship aps. Due to the early deadlines, they had applied first and visited later. It was interesting to hear how many of them had a VERY difficult time getting out of Friday classes (many needed Thursday classes off as well due to the long travel) in order to visit the school. These zero-tolerance, school attendance policies complicate everything. Actually, I really need to say that if MTU is a serious option for your student, it would be wise to visit during the junior year because it is so unique and there's a lot to think about/mull over, plus the scholarship deadline is early. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara H Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 This is a fantastic review. Thank you for posting it. While every school has its share of enthusiastic alums, I will say that Michigan Tech seems to bring out a special kind of devotion for many who went there. Maybe it is the shared bonding making it through the extreme weather - but the folks who love it there really, really loved it there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Great review - thanks for posting it! It absolutely doesn't fit my youngest (you know, the TROPICAL botany/ministry kid), but since I come into contact with oodles of high school kids at school I really like knowing about any school I can... Of course, most at our high school would never make it in... :glare: But still... I wish your guy luck in snagging a scholarship next year! (And Sailmom's D for this year!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Great review - thanks for posting it! It absolutely doesn't fit my youngest (you know, the TROPICAL botany/ministry kid), but since I come into contact with oodles of high school kids at school I really like knowing about any school I can... Of course, most at our high school would never make it in... :glare: But still... I wish your guy luck in snagging a scholarship next year! (And Sailmom's D for this year!) Now Creekland! tsk, tsk, we've both agreed that my local school district wins the "most pathetic educational institution in America" award so your students definitely have a shot. :D If you've got kids that are managing 27/28 on the ACT, take two AP's - one in science is pretty important though the Calc AB would be fine - and manage some non-standard extra-curriculars then they could make it. The scholarship money might not follow if their extra-curricular achievements are just sports or music. The school is only medium selective in terms of admission, it's the merit money issue where they get VERY selective and that's for even the smallest of scholarships. Our local school district is only averaging a 20.2 on the ACT's with very, very few students - as in literally a handful (11 out of 125 seniors if memory serves) - scoring over 24 and this is the last year that any AP's will be offered - physics and calc. They have also eliminated honors classes and about half of their electives. They no longer have a math or science team, chess club, or other academic groups including the foreign language clubs. So, between the loss of challenging classes including every.single.advanced.science.class. plus the elimination of nearly half of their electives, these kids will definitely not be able to get into MTU. But, I still think that the upper achieving students in your school may have a shot at it. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I'll let others judge whether this is a "pro" or a "con", but MTU's student population is 75% male. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acorn Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I'll let others judge whether this is a "pro" or a "con", but MTU's student population is 75% male. I was going to ask if that was the current ratio. I know it was difficult for some of my male classmates. It was also part of the reason I joined a sorority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 I was going to ask if that was the current ratio. I know it was difficult for some of my male classmates. It was also part of the reason I joined a sorority. Well, it's down to about 69/31 now. I think they actively recruit females but they don't say it. One of our tour guides was a female, sophomore, civil engineering student. But, definitely, a bit of a male nerdvana! I'm fine with it for ds if that is where he lands. Dh and I, though we met in college, were SERIOUS students and if we are going to contribute funds to our children's college educations, expect that kind of diligence in return so we would prefer the dating thing not be emphasized anyway. Now, the girls there....hmm....I wonder if they hand out "applications to date me", and then put all of their options through a vetting process! :lol: Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkateLeft Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Well, it's down to about 69/31 now. I think they actively recruit females but they don't say it. You're right. They do actively recruit females. ;) This past spring, my daughter participated in a leadership program at MTU specifically geared towards high school women interested in STEM careers. She also participated in their summer Women in Engineering program. WIE was phenomenal, by the way, if anyone has a daughter that's interested in science or engineering! MTU also has scholarships specifically for students who participate in their precollege summer programs, so that's another thing to keep in mind. The current president is very committed to increasing female enrollment, and each year that percentage is increasing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 You're right. They do actively recruit females. ;) I read that they have someone (alum or faculty member) contact each accepted female, so they are trying to convince them to attend. I was friends with some people in high school who were heavily recruited for diversity reasons to attend a very nondiverse college. Two of my friends attended, so it can certainly work to establish a relationship between applicants or potential applicants and the school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomsintheGarden Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Thanks so much for the wonderful, thorough review. MTU sounds like a really interesting school. We will definitely keep it on our radar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Now Creekland! tsk, tsk, we've both agreed that my local school district wins the "most pathetic educational institution in America" award so your students definitely have a shot. :D :lol: True, but there sure isn't much of a difference. If you've got kids that are managing 27/28 on the ACT, take two AP's - one in science is pretty important though the Calc AB would be fine - and manage some non-standard extra-curriculars then they could make it. It's rare that we get one that high, but we have had 3 NMF in the last two years (all work a LOT outside of school). Two are heading pre-med and the other wants to stay within 2 hours of home. Oh, and our school doesn't offer AP at all. Kids who have taken our Calc class (and passed, at times with an A) sometimes don't even place INTO Calc when they reach a 4 year U. They certainly wouldn't do well on an AP test unless they did a bit on their own. Our local school district is only averaging a 20.2 on the ACT's with very, very few students - as in literally a handful (11 out of 125 seniors if memory serves) - scoring over 24 and this is the last year that any AP's will be offered - physics and calc. Those numbers would be similar to ours. We have a larger class - generally a bit over 300, but the percentage scoring higher would be the same (maybe less actually, as I doubt we'd have more than 20 - if that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 :lol: True, but there sure isn't much of a difference. It's rare that we get one that high, but we have had 3 NMF in the last two years (all work a LOT outside of school). Two are heading pre-med and the other wants to stay within 2 hours of home. Oh, and our school doesn't offer AP at all. Kids who have taken our Calc class (and passed, at times with an A) sometimes don't even place INTO Calc when they reach a 4 year U. They certainly wouldn't do well on an AP test unless they did a bit on their own. Those numbers would be similar to ours. We have a larger class - generally a bit over 300, but the percentage scoring higher would be the same (maybe less actually, as I doubt we'd have more than 20 - if that). Well, Creekland, I thought your boat was better than mine. I guess with the exception that my local school superintendent, chair of school board, and the high school principal are all total dodo heads and speak their ignorance loudly and triumphantly, you and I are dealing with the same pit. Sigh.... That's the sad thing. I found a school that would LOVE to help students with a science aptitude succeed and would be a good environment for students who need access to a lot of resources, but kids from my area won't be able to get through the front door. I don't know. I'm not going to give up completely. We've got a couple of kids in our 4-H STEM Club that have sooo much natural talent that maybe I should consider doing some sort of ACT and AP study group for them before they graduate from high school. I'm already doing this stuff with my own kids. It didn't work for me as a guidance counselor last year, but on my own terms and in my own house with willing participants, maybe they would have a chance. I do know that my 4-H program coordinator would provide the funds through her education grants to purchase books. It burns me that the local PS does not offer these kids any help at all. I guess that's why the "top" 20% only manage SCARY CRAPPY REGIONAL U down the road. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 That's the sad thing. I found a school that would LOVE to help students with a science aptitude succeed and would be a good environment for students who need access to a lot of resources, but kids from my area won't be able to get through the front door. So, where do the MTU kids come from? They can't all have been homeschooled. :001_smile: Is there some mythical PS somewhere that actually is challenging STEM kids? Unlike all the ones I seem to hear about which brag about being "above average" on some useless metric. Did they come from private school? Were most of the students Tiger-Mom'ed with afterschooled enrichment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 So, where do the MTU kids come from? They can't all have been homeschooled. :001_smile: Is there some mythical PS somewhere that actually is challenging STEM kids? Unlike all the ones I seem to hear about which brag about being "above average" on some useless metric. Did they come from private school? Were most of the students Tiger-Mom'ed with afterschooled enrichment? Yes, there are some pretty competitive PS high schools south of us and one just across the county line plus a several private schools that are getting the job done, they are just VERY expensive. Michigan, while generally 100% crappy for education, has a number of, well...high end schools (ie. monied and in areas with lots of money) that do offer a huge array of options to kids who are motivated. Frankenmuth High is in the top 500 high schools in the nation, the IB school in West Bloomfield, Cranbrook, Grosse Pointe, a couple of high schools in the Rochester/Rochester Hills area, a couple of academies in Grand Rapids, one of the high schools in Traverse City, Valley Lutheran High School and Michigan Seminary (don't know if that is still an all male high school anymore or not), Powers in Flint used to be in this list though I know they have fallen off some so don't quote me about them, a couple of charter high schools in Ann Arbor (the influence and underwriting of U of M), the charter high school in Lansing (MSU), etc. If you look at the top 2000 or 10% of high schools in the nation, that will give you an idea who is turning out the top students. That said, not every high school that isn't in that top has eliminated everything my local school as eliminated. The pre-med student we met is from a town 10 miles from here, just a different school district that is still offering more. Now, he and I both agreed that while they still have some academic offerings, the place is a garbage scow in terms of school environment, but they still offer some of the good stuff and there are still students availing themselves of that. So, MTU is not at a loss for students - they fill their halls and still turn down plenty. It's just that my local school district has cut everything out for college bound students in favor of remediation resources and are doing such a poor job that the top students statistics fall every.single.year. Therefore, it would be pretty unlikely that anyone from my immediate area - aside from our homeschooled kids - would gain admission. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 So, where do the MTU kids come from? They can't all have been homeschooled. :001_smile: Is there some mythical PS somewhere that actually is challenging STEM kids? Unlike all the ones I seem to hear about which brag about being "above average" on some useless metric. Did they come from private school? Were most of the students Tiger-Mom'ed with afterschooled enrichment? There definitely are good schools around. We just don't happen to live in district that does much for "advanced" kids. We were even told by our son's middle school principal that, "Public school isn't meant for the academically talented student. It's meant for the average student and around here the average student works for _____, joins the military, or goes to community college." Our school prepares kids well for those. :glare: At my middle son's Top 50 U, kids come from private schools and good public schools. There really aren't too many homeschoolers (but he has met another). When I thanked the Dean of Admissions (at a Parent Reception) for allowing homeschoolers to be admitted he told me they liked to see homeschoolers as long as they are academically prepared. Most turn out to be really good students. But, he said, they don't get many applications. Middle son is keeping the homeschooling trend "good" there as, at the moment, he has As in all classes and has had the top grade on a test at least once. There's NO WAY he'd have been prepared to do so if I'd relied on our local public school (where I work). The foundation just wouldn't have been there even if the willingness was. The few kids who do a LOT outside of school will do well. Students who choose lower level schools do well. But students who depend upon our school to prepare them for a top school get shortchanged. It's sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 There definitely are good schools around. We just don't happen to live in district that does much for "advanced" kids. We were even told by our son's middle school principal that, "Public school isn't meant for the academically talented student. It's meant for the average student and around here the average student works for _____, joins the military, or goes to community college." Our school prepares kids well for those. :glare: At my middle son's Top 50 U, kids come from private schools and good public schools. There really aren't too many homeschoolers (but he has met another). When I thanked the Dean of Admissions (at a Parent Reception) for allowing homeschoolers to be admitted he told me they liked to see homeschoolers as long as they are academically prepared. Most turn out to be really good students. But, he said, they don't get many applications. Middle son is keeping the homeschooling trend "good" there as, at the moment, he has As in all classes and has had the top grade on a test at least once. There's NO WAY he'd have been prepared to do so if I'd relied on our local public school (where I work). The foundation just wouldn't have been there even if the willingness was. The few kids who do a LOT outside of school will do well. Students who choose lower level schools do well. But students who depend upon our school to prepare them for a top school get shortchanged. It's sad. :iagree: It's not as though Michigan Tech, UVA, U of M, or Yale are seeing a LOT of homeschool applicants. Sure, they accept homeschoolers who meet their requirements. But, they aren't seeing a lot of applicants. DS will have the stats and achievements to gain admission to MTU, U of M, MSU, Embry Riddle (Arizona), Virginia Tech, etc. However, he isn't likely to encounter very many homeschoolers in college because very few will apply. If you ask crappy, unbelievably low expectations state U down the road 55 minutes from me, they'll tell you homeschooling is a mixed bag for them. Literally, it is a 50/50. For every homeschooled freshman who succeeds another one fails and it's pretty even. I find that sad because frankly, that school has very low academic standards and it is fed by schools with tanking academic standards. If I compare my efforts to my local PS, then YEP...we've cornered the market on education! But that's comparing apples and oranges. If I compare myself to Frankenmuth high, I'm keeping pace and working hard to do it, but there are other good reasons to homeschool - character development, moral code, safety, health...etc. So, my hardwork is worth it. If I compare myself to West Bloomfield IB (in the top ten in the nation), I'm not making it. If I lived in the area (I'm so far away it just isn't an option and our income isn't high enough to even consider moving anywhere near there), and if I could afford the school, and if my son would be well-adjusted and thrive there, then I'd have to consider sending him because I can't provide what they do. That's not an easy thing to say. We spend a lot of time on the boards cheerleading each others' efforts and being the "Rah, Rah homeschooling is always better. Always!" committee for educational reform. But, I know and have seen that this is not always the case. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 If I compare my efforts to my local PS, then YEP...we've cornered the market on education! But that's comparing apples and oranges. If I compare myself to Frankenmuth high, I'm keeping pace and working hard to do it, but there are other good reasons to homeschool - character development, moral code, safety, health...etc. So, my hardwork is worth it. If I compare myself to West Bloomfield IB (in the top ten in the nation), I'm not making it. Faith Not to totally be "rah rah," but don't sell yourself short. You wouldn't really know without true comparison. I worried a bit about whether middle son would be able to compete academically with top prep school and public school students since my major high school knowledge comes from where I work now and my own (good school) experience many, many moons ago. He's doing just fine and is very much at or near the top. He feels his prep has been superb, and in some things, even more difficult in high school than his actual (freshman) classes in college. But I didn't know until he got there and "ran the race" with the new set of peers. I worried about whether my prep shortchanged him. We all, as homeschoolers, have our own two bit racetrack. We use standardized tests (ACT/SAT/PSAT/SAT II/AP) to give us an idea where our runners match up with the competition, but until they really join the race, none of us truly know. My personal thinking is that your guy will do just fine in the stepped up competition. ;) You've prepared him well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomsintheGarden Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Not to totally be "rah rah," but don't sell yourself short. You wouldn't really know without true comparison. I worried a bit about whether middle son would be able to compete academically with top prep school and public school students since my major high school knowledge comes from where I work now and my own (good school) experience many, many moons ago. He's doing just fine and is very much at or near the top. He feels his prep has been superb, and in some things, even more difficult in high school than his actual (freshman) classes in college. But I didn't know until he got there and "ran the race" with the new set of peers. I worried about whether my prep shortchanged him. We all, as homeschoolers, have our own two bit racetrack. We use standardized tests (ACT/SAT/PSAT/SAT II/AP) to give us an idea where our runners match up with the competition, but until they really join the race, none of us truly know. My personal thinking is that your guy will do just fine in the stepped up competition. ;) You've prepared him well. I agree. Ds just graduated from VA Tech. I was a bit worried that he wouldn't be able to keep up with the students from TJ High School in Alexandria, VA, which at the time was considered a top 10 high school in the nation. There are other schools around D.C. that are/were extremely competitive as well. What we've found out is that the great prep those high schools provide gives their students about a year's advantage. It evens out after that. Ds felt well prepared, although I felt we could have done more if I had been more savvy about things. He did very well at Tech and is now in grad school there. Btw, we know several homeschooled students at Tech. It's worked out well for them. GardenMom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*LC Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Sigh.... That's the sad thing. I found a school that would LOVE to help students with a science aptitude succeed and would be a good environment for students who need access to a lot of resources, but kids from my area won't be able to get through the front door. I don't know. I'm not going to give up completely. We've got a couple of kids in our 4-H STEM Club that have sooo much natural talent that maybe I should consider doing some sort of ACT and AP study group for them before they graduate from high school. I'm already doing this stuff with my own kids.. Faith Thanks for the cool report. I would definitely encourage those kids with the science aptitude to apply. In "what classes are recommended for admission," the school doesn't mention needing AP classes. So, it might work out for some of those students even from the bad schools. Since it is free to apply, it is definitely won't hurt to try for admission. They list the avg incoming ACT as a 26.3. For those out-of-state folks interested, I found this at the scholarship page. National Scholars Program Scholarships are available to non-Michigan residents of the US or residents of Canada. First-Year Students—applicants with a minimum composite ACT score of 27 (or a 1220 SAT critical reading + math) and 3.00 cumulative GPA (on a 4.00 scale) receive $12,500 per year—bringing tuition close to that of an in-state student. Other applicants will be considered for awards valued at $7,000 or $10,000 per year which are competitively awarded based on an index that considers your high school academic record including ACT or SAT scores, cumulative GPA, and class rank (if available). I'm sorry to hear about your school district. It makes me appreciate the high school my older kids attend. In the recent parent newsletter, the school recently announced that nearly 100 seniors scored at 27 or above on the ACT or at 1800 or above on the SAT. There are 450+ seniors. This is a school that offers a lot of AP classes starting in 10th grade. Thanks again for the report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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