just got accused of being a bully. your thoughts

[Firestar Academy]

I belong to a FB group that sells/gives away stuff.

 

today I ran across a post from a woman giving away her WIC milk coupons because her family wasn't going to use it.

 

I pm'd the moderator and asked (what i thought was nicely) the legality of giving away WIC coupons for milk. I did not make a comment on the post. just a PM to the moderator.

 

I have never been on WIC and don't understand the rules. A google search found that in CA, giving away benefits is not allowed. We are in NJ.

 

I was then accused of being a bully and that there were over 2000 women on this board and wouldn't I rather someone get the milk than it go in the trash.

 

I still thought that the government tracks the usage of benefits. somehow even giving it away doesn't seem quite right to me.

 

soooooo, what say the hive???

 

Robin

[OnTheBrink]

Not a bully. WIC vouchers are not freebies for anyone. Person giving them away was in the wrong.

 

Although, she could have used the vouchers, gotten the milk and given the milk away, I guess. At least no one would have been using the vouchers fraudulently.

[TXMomof4]

Ummm- the milk isn't going in the trash.

 

I don't think it's legal to transfer benefits.

[momtoamiracle]

No bully, just concerned about fraud. And yes, she could have bought the milk and then donated it to a shelter or given it to someone else.

[amy g.]

Nope. You were in the right.

[linders]

Not a bully. I am very much in favor of government support where it is needed - many people really need WIC, food stamps, welfare, for any number of reasons. But when people do this, it supports the assumption held by some that it is a joke, abuse, etc.

 

Good job.

Edited October 26, 2012 by linders

[Bang!Zoom!]

So Robin, just a question..

 

If this was a closed / non-public note (assuming) does this mean (assuming) that the bully comment came from the moderator?

[Firestar Academy]

Wait - I relooked at the post. she was offering to get the milk and then give it away. does that make a difference??

 

I still think it is wrong to give away your benefits.

 

robin in NJ

[joannqn]

It is illegal to give away or sell WIC benefits.

[PrincessMommy]

So speaking up about something that may be unethical (or illegal) is now being a bully? :glare:

 

I think you were right. Couldn't the group lose it's privileges if they begin to engage in illegal activity?

[Firestar Academy]

So Robin, just a question..

 

If this was a closed / non-public note (assuming) does this mean (assuming) that the bully comment came from the moderator?

 

it came out on the group. this is the exact message

 

:PLEASE READ:: I am sad to open my inbox tonight and have almost 10 messages, people pointing things out on other peoples pictures/posts. This is BULLYING!

It's very simple, if you like an item and want to buy it, then comment on it, if you don't want to buy it, then scroll past the picture and LEAVE IT ALONE!!!

We have so much tattling and nitpicking going on that I wonder how any of us can be friendly. I understand in a group of 2,350 members there will be some rough patches, but we are coming up on the holidays a time to give and share, not to rip each other apart.

 

Robin

 

BTW one cannot sell knock-off bags on this site because it is illegal.

[Bang!Zoom!]

Eeesh, I'd bail.

[Guest inoubliable]

Yikes. The moderator seems a bit off, IMO. You were in the right. Even if that woman was buying the milk with her WIC checks and then donating it, that's fraud. Illegal. The moderator seems either clueless or is okay with fraud.

[PrincessMommy]

it came out on the group. this is the exact message

 

:PLEASE READ:: I am sad to open my inbox tonight and have almost 10 messages, people pointing things out on other peoples pictures/posts. This is BULLYING!

It's very simple, if you like an item and want to buy it, then comment on it, if you don't want to buy it, then scroll past the picture and LEAVE IT ALONE!!!

We have so much tattling and nitpicking going on that I wonder how any of us can be friendly. I understand in a group of 2,350 members there will be some rough patches, but we are coming up on the holidays a time to give and share, not to rip each other apart.

 

Robin

 

BTW one cannot sell knock-off bags on this site because it is illegal.

 

Oh for pete's sake... To quote the great Inigo Montoya:

 

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

Tattling and nitpicking is NOT bullying. (where's the rolleyes smilie when I need it).

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Eeesh, I'd bail.

 

No kidding! Life's too short.

[Word Nerd]

No, that's not bullying—it's someone misusing a word that has become such a buzzword that it's losing its original meaning.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

The one month I was on WIC I was told that not even my husband was allowed to eat/drink what I got with the vouchers. You did the right thing.

[Firestar Academy]

Thanks Hive!!

 

I thought maybe I missed something in the bully handbook!!

 

if anyone has a link to it being illegal in NJ, it would be appreciated since the poster said she would post next month.

 

robin

[mom2scouts]

You're not a bully. What she's doing is illegal and the milk is not being wasted if she doesn't use the voucher. Can you send a copy of the post to the local WIC office?

[justamouse]

BAil.

 

Stuff like this? Is why kids think it's ok to cheat. Because we (universal) cheat every day...

[laundrycrisis]

IMO you were not being a bully but questioning the legality.

 

As an aside, if people who get a WIC voucher do not use all of the vouchers they are given, then the amount they are given can be decreased, so if they might need the milk in the future, it is in their best interest to still use the voucher for the milk even if they don't need it that week. And IMO, it is not unethical for them to give away milk that would not be otherwise used, or trade it with another family who has a surplus of something different. They generally cannot give a refrigerated product to a food bank or other charity. They would have to give it to or trade it with someone they know privately. Trading it for a different basic food item that the family would use, and having the milk get used by a family who does need it, is IMO way more ethical than having milk go sour and then be dumped. Having the food wasted is worse than trading it. Having the family lose some of what they are given in the future just because they didn't need all the milk once or twice is not in the family's best interest. It makes much more sense to take the milk, and if it will for sure not be needed, find a family who would take the milk and trade something that would be used. I know this is not what the law allows for, but I tend to think that people should quietly do what makes the most sense. People actually consuming the food that the govt paid for is what makes sense, even if there is some swapping going on. As long as it's not milk being swapped for cigarettes, potato chips etc, I would not criticize anyone for doing that.

 

You cannot just give away/trade/sell the vouchers though. You have to show id and sign with a matching signature.

Edited October 26, 2012 by laundrycrisis

[Dustybug]

That is most definitely illegal and you were not being a bully.

 

The one month I was on WIC I was told that not even my husband was allowed to eat/drink what I got with the vouchers. You did the right thing.

 

Seriously? I was on WIC for a LONG time and never heard that at all! Book me Danno! My DH definitely ate that. What do they expect you to cook a meal with your beans, but tell DH that he can't touch it? Ridiculous.

[GWOB]

I have been on WIC before, a number of times. You never, ever, ever give away your vouchers. Ever.

 

You are not a bully. You did the right thing by calling out that lady. I'm sure she was just trying to be nice, but that is illegal. You are fine.

[blondeviolin]

In OK, you have to sign the voucher and show ID.

 

I love how she comments that you can't sell stolen bags because it's illegal, but doesn't touch the legality of transferring WIC benefits. :001_huh:

[Firestar Academy]

IMO you were not being a bully but questioning the legality.

 

As an aside, if people who get a WIC voucher do not use all of the vouchers they are given, then the amount they are given can be decreased, so if they might need the milk in the future, it is in their best interest to still use the voucher for the milk even if they don't need it that week. And IMO, it is not unethical for them to give away milk that would not be otherwise used, or trade it with another family who has a surplus of something different. They generally cannot give a refrigerated product to a food bank or other charity. They would have to give it to or trade it with someone they know privately. Trading it for a different basic food item that the family would use, and having the milk get used by a family who does need it, is IMO way more ethical than having milk go sour and then be dumped. Having the food wasted is worse than trading it. Having the family lose some of what they are given in the future just because they didn't need all the milk once or twice is not in the family's best interest. It makes much more sense to take the milk, and if it will for sure not be needed, find a family who would take the milk and trade something that would be used. I know this is not what the law allows for, but I tend to think that people should quietly do what makes the most sense.

 

I still don't agree. from what I read, there isn't enough $$ to cover all those who qualify for WIC benefits. this family should get a decrease in their milk becasue NOONE in their family drinks milk.

 

to me, it seems that they just stole benefits from someone else who qualifies.

 

robin

[mamajag]

They give so much here on WIC that I couldn't use it all and couldn't pick and choose. My state doesn't do vouchers; they give you a package every month and it's all or nothing. My daughter was on very expensive formula and after checking with WIC and finding I couldn't give it back, I contacted my pediatrician and he made sure the formula went to families who could use it. It was that or throw it out, and to me the bigger sin would have been to waste perfectly good formula. The formula went to a family with premie twins with digestive issues.

 

I don't think in the situation where you get vouchers that one can simply not redeem that you should redeem what you don't need.

[Pink Fairy]

If she buys the milk and gives it away, that's fraud? Says who? :bigear:

 

OP, I think the moderator's response was a bit much, but she might not have been referring to you.

[laundrycrisis]

I still don't agree. from what I read, there isn't enough $$ to cover all those who qualify for WIC benefits. this family should get a decrease in their milk becasue NOONE in their family drinks milk.

 

to me, it seems that they just stole benefits from someone else who qualifies.

 

robin

 

Yes, if they are never going to use the milk, or that much milk, they should not use the voucher and have that extra milk removed from their benefits. But I didn't get that detail from your post.

 

If the family will use the milk some or most of the time, IMO it's not in their best interest to lose the benefit for it just for not taking it once in a while. It's a shame that the WIC system is not set up to allow occasional refusals of items without it having a lasting effect on the family's vouchers.

 

But here's another possible consideration - if the family is allergic to dairy products, but WIC in their state won't cover dairy alternatives (like calcium enriched soy milk), IMO it's not unethical to take the milk they can get from the program, and quietly find a friend to take the milk and trade for that value in a calcium enriched dairy alternative product. Because then the WIC program is still providing that family with the nutrition of the milk.

 

In many places, WIC programs are really inflexible. Sometimes the families have to find creative ways to end up with healthy food that will be used, and not have any of the WIC food wasted.

Edited October 26, 2012 by laundrycrisis

[LostSurprise]

They give so much here on WIC that I couldn't use it all and couldn't pick and choose. My state doesn't do vouchers; they give you a package every month and it's all or nothing.

 

This is how it was when my sister was on WIC. The caseworker would not let her pick and chose what she received. Gluten-free household? Too bad.

 

She stopped fighting it and just gave the cereal portion away. She tried to make sure it went to families that could use the help but didn't quite qualify for WIC, but sometimes no one she knew but my kids would eat plain cereal so we got it. :001_huh:

[staceyobu]

If she buys the milk and gives it away, that's fraud? Says who? :bigear:

 

OP, I think the moderator's response was a bit much, but she might not have been referring to you.

 

Because everyone's tax dollars are paying for milk for someone to give it away to someone who could buy their own milk.

[Firestar Academy]

If she buys the milk and gives it away, that's fraud? Says who? :bigear:

 

OP, I think the moderator's response was a bit much, but she might not have been referring to you.

 

 

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/wicworks/Documents/NE/WIC-NE-EdMaterials-WelcomeToWICBrochure.pdf

 

here is a document I came across for california. on the second page under your responsibilities:

 

"use the foods only for the person on the program."

 

robin

[Firestar Academy]

Because everyone's tax dollars are paying for milk for someone to give it away to someone who could buy their own milk.

 

:iagree:

 

 

robin

[Firestar Academy]

Yes, if they are never going to use the milk, or that much milk, they should not use the voucher and have that extra milk removed from their benefits. But I didn't get that detail from your post.

 

They are never going to use the milk

 

If the family will use the milk some or most of the time, IMO it's not in their best interest to lose the benefit for it just for not taking it once in a while. It's a shame that the WIC system is not set up to allow occasional refusals of items without it having a lasting effect on the family's vouchers.

 

But here's another possible consideration - if the family is allergic to dairy products, but WIC in their state won't cover dairy alternatives (like calcium enriched soy milk), IMO it's not unethical to take the milk they can get from the program, and quietly find a friend to take the milk and trade for that value in a calcium enriched dairy alternative product. Because then the WIC program is still providing that family with the nutrition of the milk.

 

if they didn't use the vouchers wouldn't the wic program eventually realize, when families do not use the vouchers, that dairy alternatives should be offered??

 

In many places, WIC programs are really inflexible. Sometimes the families have to find creative ways to end up with healthy food that will be used, and not have any of the WIC food wasted.

 

robin

[Elizabeth in MN]

Giving away or selling WIC vouchers is illegal.

 

As for an alternate dairy product, yes they do that in NJ - http://www.nj.gov/health/fhs/wic/documents/foodlist_en.pdf

 

Also, IMO the OP is not being a bully - she's stopping fraud.

[Elizabeth in MN]

Because everyone's tax dollars are paying for milk for someone to give it away to someone who could buy their own milk.

 

Uh, this is true but possibly not the way that you're thinking.

 

WIC is administered by the USDA. The reason foods are VERY limited is because WIC is actually a way to use up food that has been subsidized by the US government.

 

This is how it basically works - the US government gives money to some grain farmers. In exchange, the farmers promise to sell their grains to certain buyers/companies. The grain is then used to make certain food, like Chex breakfast cereal. Then WIC requires that only certain brands of cereal be applicable for their vouchers - ones that buy the grains from the subsidized farmers. This way the money recycles back into the the US government. So yes, it is tax money being used but no, it's not tax money like with Food Stamps.

 

On WIC you can't just go and buy any brand of milk, or just any kind of milk. It has to be from a specific set of companies, depending on what state you live in. The same with EVERYTHING from WIC.

 

WIC is a great program, but it's very rigid.

[LucyStoner]

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/wicworks/Documents/NE/WIC-NE-EdMaterials-WelcomeToWICBrochure.pdf

 

here is a document I came across for california. on the second page under your responsibilities:

 

"use the foods only for the person on the program."

 

robin

 

That's one of those impossible to follow or enforce rules. If a mom has 3 kids on WIC, no one is going to expect that she keep four open gallons of milk in the fridge at one time (1 per kid and 1 bought separately for dad.) At least no sane person. Provided that sharing within the household is not leaving the beneficiary hungry, I don't see why anyone would follow that rule to the letter rather than the spirit. That said, I totally agree that offering up WIC foods on Facebook is not ok. I am more flexible to trading with another family in need so that each family ends up with more food they will or can actually eat.

Edited October 26, 2012 by kijipt

[LucyStoner]

Giving away or selling WIC vouchers is illegal.

 

As for an alternate dairy product, yes they do that in NJ - http://www.nj.gov/health/fhs/wic/documents/foodlist_en.pdf

 

Also, IMO the OP is not being a bully - she's stopping fraud.

 

I don't think she is being a bully but I do think it is an overstatement to say she is stopping fraud. If she really wanted to persue it, she could report the woman's name to the WIC office, but then perhaps the child loses the foods they do eat and while I care about fraud, in the end a child eating is preferable to the alternative. Reporting it to the mod of the group is not really going to stop it from happening. I think the woman making the posting offering the WIC checks is really making bad decision but there is not much anyone can do about it on Facebook.

[SKL]

I don't think it's any better to give away the milk itself than the coupons. The exception would be if you originally intended to use the milk and for whatever reason it wasn't used and would go to waste.

 

How come the person in question had extra? That would be my question. If she accepted a benefit she did not need, she left the government with less resources to distribute to those in need. What would have happened had she given the coupons back? Would it have caused her kids to go hungry in the future?

[LucyStoner]

I don't think it's any better to give away the milk itself than the coupons. The exception would be if you originally intended to use the milk and for whatever reason it wasn't used and would go to waste.

 

How come the person in question had extra? That would be my question. If she accepted a benefit she did not need, she left the government with less resources to distribute to those in need. What would have happened had she given the coupons back? Would it have caused her kids to go hungry in the future?

 

It depends on where you are. Sometimes it is an all or nothing. So a mom might need to take the milk to get the other stuff that she does need at all. That is not her fault, it is the fault of the policies of her state's program. In that case, I can't see the harm in giving the milk you had to take away. In other states, you can get the other stuff only so why not just use the voucher for what you need. Ideally, you would be able to swap something you didn't need for something you did. Some families don't do juice or can't drink milk but you can't decline the juice or milk and get an extra bag of beans, even though you would be substituting in a less costly item.

[Elizabeth in MN]

I do think it is an overstatement to say she is stopping fraud.

 

Respectfully, I disagree. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fraud

 

The woman in NJ is getting the milk, claiming that she will use it for her family. When she receives the milk she gives it to someone else - someone who is not eligible for WIC. In applying for WIC you sign a contract that you and your family are the only ones who will use the vouchers.

 

Interestingly enough, I can find no way to report WIC fraud in NJ. I read up on several sites for other states and the giving-away of WIC food is not listed as something they prosecute. However, in the WIC program itself they make a BIG DEAL about it.

[LucyStoner]

Respectfully, I disagree. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fraud

 

 

Um, ok. :confused: I know what fraud is and agree that this is fraud. :tongue_smilie: I take "STOPPING fraud" to mean taking action that actually stops the fraudulent activity, not reporting a FB post to a loopy mod. The woman offering that milk is still going to give it away, even if the mod was responsive to the report. Which she wasn't. All I was saying was that the fraud was not being stopped.

 

If you want to report someone for WIC fraud, you can call the WIC office you believe they use. It will not be prosecuted (we are talking about $5 worth of milk here) but in some instances, benefits will be revoked.

[Elizabeth in MN]

I take "STOPPING fraud" to mean taking action that actually stops the fraudulent activity, not reporting a FB post to a loopy mod.

 

All I was saying was that the fraud was not being stopped.

 

Ah, true. My brain didn't work enough to pick up the stopping part. I'll either blame the dog or my lack of night sleep :D

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

Seriously? I was on WIC for a LONG time and never heard that at all! Book me Danno! My DH definitely ate that. What do they expect you to cook a meal with your beans, but tell DH that he can't touch it? Ridiculous.

 

Yup. As part of the paperwork I signed a legally binding statement that I would be the only one to use the foodstuffs I redeemed. We had two different jugs of milk in the fridge, labeled. I was the only one who ate the lentils, carrots, and cheese. We didn't do that again. I only signed up because the rent on the breast pump from the hospital was a lot (preemie in the NICU, it was the only way to get him breast milk,) and I was told WIC could help me with that. They lent me one that was HORRIBLE; I couldn't use it. I gave it back and never renewed.,

[DawnM]

I got called FAR WORSE by someone trying to sell her birth control pills! It was HORRIBLE.

 

I still have the nasty emails saved. They call me every curse word available, etc....

 

You did the right thing. I did the right thing.

 

By her definition, any rule follower or anyone blowing the whistle would be a bully. NO! You are mad because you got cause and you need someone to blame!

 

Dawn

[merry gardens]

No, I don't think you were a bully. I think you may have been the victim of a bully.

[PrincessMommy]

No, I don't think you were a bully. I think you may have been the victim of a bully.

 

That's a very good point. Honestly, I think I'd call this mod out on calling whistle blowers bullies.

[twinmami01]

If she buys the milk and gives it away, that's fraud? Says who? :bigear:

 

OP, I think the moderator's response was a bit much, but she might not have been referring to you.

 

:iagree: I'm wondering if the moderator was referring to one of the other people who responded?

[Punks in Ontario]

I haven't read all the replies, so ignore me if I'm repeating someone else. I'm also too lazy to look up the reference, but I always teach my guys that Proverbs tells us that when you correct a fool, you'll get one of two responses. Either they'll laugh (scoff) at you or they'll be angry (rage) at you. Both ways, they'll try to make you think it's you that's wrong. BYW, this can be a form of bullying.

[Murphy101]

Um. No. It's fraud. It's a felony. Pointing that out does not make you a bully.

[Murphy101]

Idk about other states, but in MY state the WIC office is very clear that trading Wic checks or Wic products for anything is illegal and punishable. That's why if I didn't get the milk from Wic, I can trade it for beer. But if its Wic milk, iow I have claimed I don't have enough food or money for food for my kids and thus the govts gives me milk but I lied and actually am using the Wic to get other things - that's illegal and fraud.

 

If she doesn't use the Wic herself, then it expires and those funds can go to someone else that has qualified for the free milk.

 

The notion that if she doesn't use the check its wasted is bogus.