My child is a bully:(......

[flopsymopsy]

and I am at a loss. Its not over the top stuff but it is bullying. He has been called out on it but is not willing to view it as such. He has always been impulsive and does not have a filter on his mouth(if he has a thought.......it comes right out his mouth). He points out things(things he sees as flaws in others or compares how he is better at something). Will tell someone they can't sit at this table because it belongs to ________. Stuff like that. It is mostly his mouth. How do I get through to him? He is a hard child. Does not respect authority, eyes roll as soon as I try to talk to him about this stuff. He feels targeted by the adults, which, he is loud and wiry and people notice him. So yes, that would not surprise me for him to feel that way. He usually needs correction in a classroom setting. I just want him to get it and acknowledge his actions are mean and have a desire to stop. Instead, he acts like he is the victim(a manipulation no doubt) and that angers me. Insights? Please be gentle, I already feel like a failure in the parent department:(.

[myfunnybunch]

:grouphug:

 

How old is he?

[flopsymopsy]

He is 12.

[Catwoman]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I have no advice for you, but I am wondering if this is a new thing, or if he has always been this way... and if so, what have you done about it in the past?

 

Edited to add: I hope I don't sound like I'm criticizing you -- I'm just curious about when this behavior started. :grouphug:

[kalanamak]

If I were in your shoes, I'd tomato stake and work the program in Raising A Thinking Child. I swear mine got so sick of "going over" things, he started to behave to avoid the discussion. :D It is time consuming, and I did it every time. (I didn't like Raising a Thinking Pre-Teen, which was all about how to get along with kids at school. It seemed to be written to teach kids how to deal with bullies. I found the short part about dealing with a bully child very Polly Anna.)

[Joanne]

and I am at a loss. Its not over the top stuff but it is bullying. He has been called out on it but is not willing to view it as such. He has always been impulsive and does not have a filter on his mouth(if he has a thought.......it comes right out his mouth). He points out things(things he sees as flaws in others or compares how he is better at something). Will tell someone they can't sit at this table because it belongs to ________. Stuff like that. It is mostly his mouth. How do I get through to him? He is a hard child. Does not respect authority, eyes roll as soon as I try to talk to him about this stuff. He feels targeted by the adults, which, he is loud and wiry and people notice him. So yes, that would not surprise me for him to feel that way. He usually needs correction in a classroom setting. I just want him to get it and acknowledge his actions are mean and have a desire to stop. Instead, he acts like he is the victim(a manipulation no doubt) and that angers me. Insights? Please be gentle, I already feel like a failure in the parent department:(.

 

I'd encourage you to drop the expectation and goal of getting him to acknowledge his action are mean and to create a desire to stop.

 

Instead, I'd focus on what you want him to do/not do. I would not engage with the "why" or his idea of whether he agrees with your assessment.

 

I would approach it that he needs "social coaching." I'd be doing a lot of "Try again" with him. I'd not allow him to argue his side, and I'd have removing him from situations as an option or consequence. At 12, I'd even do some role playing even if that is usually a tool for younger kids.

 

I'd possibly introduce a token economy for a short time; I'd tie rewards to days with minimal social correction and also to his response to correction. I would teach and role play what an *appropriate* and non vitcim response looks like.

 

More later, gotta go.

[flopsymopsy]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I have no advice for you, but I am wondering if this is a new thing, or if he has always been this way... and if so, what have you done about it in the past?

 

We have always struggled with him. We have been in counseling. They felt his issues were anxiety based and possibly ADHD. We did not want to medicate and did not want to enroll him in school(that was brought up frequently). He writes letters of apology to those he has wronged(which he fights doing), involve him in acts of service, which can be a good fit for him especially when it involves hard labor. He is a hard worker. We try to keep in engaged in some type of regular exercise. We set up accountability for him but fights that as well. We have stripped EVERYTHING from him and it bothers him at first but then becomes too hard for him to earn back so he quits trying. He just refuses to see that anything is wrong with the way he is acts. But he has to know......right????

[momma aimee]

We have always struggled with him. We have been in counseling. They felt his issues were anxiety based and possibly ADHD. We did not want to medicate and did not want to enroll him in school(that was brought up frequently). He writes letters of apology to those he has wronged(which he fights doing), involve him in acts of service, which can be a good fit for him especially when it involves hard labor. He is a hard worker. We try to keep in engaged in some type of regular exercise. We set up accountability for him but fights that as well. We have stripped EVERYTHING from him and it bothers him at first but then becomes too hard for him to earn back so he quits trying. He just refuses to see that anything is wrong with the way he is acts. But he has to know......right????

 

are you still working with a therpist? sounds like you need to have a meeting with his therpist without him and ask him or her all this

 

i love my alone meetings with my son's therpist

[Catwoman]

We have always struggled with him. We have been in counseling. They felt his issues were anxiety based and possibly ADHD. We did not want to medicate and did not want to enroll him in school(that was brought up frequently). He writes letters of apology to those he has wronged(which he fights doing), involve him in acts of service, which can be a good fit for him especially when it involves hard labor. He is a hard worker. We try to keep in engaged in some type of regular exercise. We set up accountability for him but fights that as well. We have stripped EVERYTHING from him and it bothers him at first but then becomes too hard for him to earn back so he quits trying. He just refuses to see that anything is wrong with the way he is acts. But he has to know......right????

 

Sadly, not necessarily. Some kids just aren't that big in the Conscience and Kindness Department. I'm not sure what you can do to change the way he thinks, because it's probably a personality thing with him.

 

I think you may need to let go of the idea that he "should" be feeling guilty, because it doesn't seem like that's going to happen. Maybe you need to approach it only on a social/practical level, as in, "This behavior is not acceptable and will not be tolerated," with no talk about how nice people don't act like bullies. He doesn't care. But he does need to know how to interact and survive in society, so he needs to know how to act properly, even if he would prefer to act like a bully.

 

That probably made no sense at all. I'm terrible at explaining what I mean in this type of situation!!!

 

But I will be clear about one thing -- don't blame yourself for your child's innate personality traits. You can't always change the way a person thinks and feels, no matter how hard you try. Often, people just are what they are. :grouphug:

[Mandamom]

I agree with Joanne.

 

You need to change the behavior and not focus on trying to make him feel something he isn't feeling. He needs to become aware of expected behavior and specific social coaching on how to act in daily situations.

 

You might need to develop some code words/signals so that you can give him coach him in a group without others being aware he is getting assistance.

[renmew]

I don't really have anything to tell you that might help, only I do agree with those who say to focus on the behavior itself, not on his thoughts. Forcing a "do-over" every single time, where life does not move forward until the right thing is said. As far as a token system, maybe he could get 2 or 3 tokens for doing it right the first time, and 1 for fixing an incorrect action right away when first asked.

 

I had an experience with a guy in his 20's back when I was in college. He worked at the pizza place next to my coffee shop job. He bragged constantly about the amount of graffiti he did, and told everyone he had a right to do it, since we all had freedom of speech. Weirdo. No amount of talking would change his mind, so a group of us got together and "decorated" his entire car with a washable paint. He tough car was covered in hearts and flowers. He did not get it. He was soooo mad that someone did that to his car, and just could not see how his own actions were connected.

[renmew]

double post

[Elizabeth in MN]

If I were in your shoes, I'd tomato stake

 

Okay, I've seen this term here a few times and I have no idea what it means. Someone can please explain it?

 

 

I have two thoughts about what the OP has said. One is to go postal on her son, like totally loose her temper on him and see if that motivates him to behave better. Like the whole issue of "this is my table and you can't sit here". I would have lost my temper with my own child had she ever pulled that kind of behavior. She's scared stiff of me when I'm angry and complies quickly with whatever the issue is and it never repeats.

 

However, I'm not sure this is the correct approach with the OP's son. She and her family have tried stripping away the some of the fun in his life and having him earn them back, but it doesn't work.

 

OP, you said a magical combination of ADHD and anxiety. Those two terms along with some of the examples of his behavior have me thinking that it may be time to have him evaluated for Asperger Syndrome. If he has it, and that can only be determines by a neuropsych evaluation, then it may be very hard for him to learn how to think of others. Not impossible, just hard.

 

I've had a lot of the "oh, this wouldn't be an issue if you just put him in school" advice. It turned out that by home schooling my daughter she is higher functioning than if I had sent her to school. Thank G-d I stuck to my gut instinct.

 

:grouphug:

[Ann]

Sounds like he has a "lagging skill". Kids do better when they can so you need to back it up and find out where the lacking skill is. This can take awhile and many tries to figure out. This model is based on collaborative problem solving and I have used it with kids. The stripped room is not working because it is not teaching him the missing skill. Ask him for his side of what happened- let him tell you what he thinks and don't say anything- he needs to be heard. Next you can let him know what your concerns are about his actions. Then you come up with a plan together. Have him brainstorm ideas (all ideas don't reject any at first). When the list is done you can discuss why some of them won't work. Try for a few days and check back in to see how it is going. Repeat process as necessary.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

 

OP, you said a magical combination of ADHD and anxiety. Those two terms along with some of the examples of his behavior have me thinking that it may be time to have him evaluated for Asperger Syndrome. If he has it, and that can only be determines by a neuropsych evaluation, then it may be very hard for him to learn how to think of others. Not impossible, just hard.

 

 

 

:iagree: When I was reading your post, OP, I was saying to myself , "This is how my Aspie boy is." It's not that he doesn't care whether or not he is hurting someone's feelings, in his mind he is just stating a truth and truly can't see how that could affect someone else, even if you try to explain it. The table thing is a prime example. I could see my son saying something like that, because in his mind, it's true, and he wound not be able to see how that would sound harsh to the other person.

 

These are the kinds of situations in which I try to make ds go back and replay the situation with me. I explain outright that his behavior in that instance was not socially acceptable, then I model how an acceptable interaction should have gone.

[TXMomof4]

I agree with the role playing idea. My oldest is 12 and is a smart kid. But it seems like she doesn't connect her actions/behaviors with the feelings of others always. Does your son get his feelings hurt if someone is awful to him? With dd we stop her immediately and remove her from the situation. The we turn it around and say the exact same words she used to her or reenact the same situation. It makes her angry sometimes. She generally says that she didn't mean it the way we said it. When we point out that we used her exact words she will generally acknowledge that maybe she could have been a little kinder. Maybe not immediately, but she does get it. Doing this repeatedly has improved her behavior. I don't think she was being mean just to be mean. I think she really didn't stop to think about the power of her words and the impact she has on other people.

[Trish]

If I were in your shoes, I'd tomato stake and work the program in Raising A Thinking Child. I swear mine got so sick of "going over" things, he started to behave to avoid the discussion. :D It is time consuming, and I did it every time. (I didn't like Raising a Thinking Pre-Teen, which was all about how to get along with kids at school. It seemed to be written to teach kids how to deal with bullies. I found the short part about dealing with a bully child very Polly Anna.)

 

:iagree:

[Chris in VA]

:iagree: When I was reading your post, OP, I was saying to myself , "This is how my Aspie boy is." It's not that he doesn't care whether or not he is hurting someone's feelings, in his mind he is just stating a truth and truly can't see how that could affect someone else, even if you try to explain it. The table thing is a prime example. I could see my son saying something like that, because in his mind, it's true, and he wound not be able to see how that would sound harsh to the other person.

 

These are the kinds of situations in which I try to make ds go back and replay the situation with me. I explain outright that his behavior in that instance was not socially acceptable, then I model how an acceptable interaction should have gone.

 

Aspie was the first thing that popped into my mind, too.

 

I don't like the stripping the room thing--I've seen kids lose hope of ever earning back, and it just is so defeating.

 

I'd listen to Joanne and also work on repairing the relationship thru family therapy. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

It is GOOD that you are so aware, facing things, and dealing. I went thru such hardships with my own ds, who ended up having multiple addictions. How I wish we had started dealing with things earlier. :grouphug:

[Garga]

We have always struggled with him. We have been in counseling. They felt his issues were anxiety based and possibly ADHD. We did not want to medicate and did not want to enroll him in school(that was brought up frequently).

 

Interesting. The first thing I thought when I was reading your post: I bet he has ADHD and isn't medicated.

 

Why did I think that? Because my son sounds a lot like your son when he's not taking his meds.

 

Sorry that that won't help you, but I think it's a common problem with some forms of ADHD. Without his meds, my son just DOES NOT see when he's being obnoxious. He just Doesn't. See. It. And instruction and correction seems to hit against a wall. He gives me a saucy look and you can tell it's not sinking in. Sometimes we forget to give him his medicine in the morning and he'll give me "the look." And I'll say, "You didn't take your pill today, did you?" It's very obvious.

 

With the meds, he's reasonable and listens to correction and is able to empathize. Not pushing meds on you. Just saying that it certainly sounds like a side effect of the ADHD. Why am I even posting this? I don't know. It doesn't help you at all. I'm sorry. I guess I'm trying to say that inside of him, he's probably capable of understanding that what he's doing is wrong, but the ADHD gets in the way, so he isn't able to tap into that understanding.

[BlsdMama]

Insights? Please be gentle, I already feel like a failure in the parent department:(.

 

There is only one solution and it's a hard one. Most won't choose it because it's TOO hard. If you want to change his thinking and behaviours you must keep him close to you and correct wrong thinking, behaviour, and action immediately upon the behaviour, word, etc.

 

What does keeping him close mean?

 

Well, you've already noticed you can't correct him in a classroom setting. So it means no classroom settings.

 

This isn't a week long thing. Often it's a one year thing and sometimes more. It's essentially behaviour therapy - you correct it immediately.

 

He gets some kind of gratification or self-soothing out of what he says, does, or "tells" himself in his mind. You need to correct all of these things. It has to be immediate. The only way it can be immediate is to have him close to you... All the time. It's an incredibly high price to pay on your part.

 

ETA: And I will add that getting a diagnosis doesn't change what I wrote. No matter what label you get for him, the problem will still exist and the solution is still this. Now, could medication be part of a solution? Perhaps. But it doesn't change what I have above. I have a child that I'd love to have some kind of label for so I could alleviate a lot of things - Mom guilt for one, MY own responsibility in allowing things, the ability to NOT have to do what I wrote above it definitely there too. But at the end of the day when he (she in my case) turns into an insufferable adult, or worse a dysfunctional, unhealthy adult in whom I cannot change anything and I only have to watch them suffer and torment in a puddle of their own making... It will break my heart.

Edited October 24, 2012 by BlsdMama

[BlsdMama]

BTW, the above is the definition of tomato-staking.

 

It's a term that comes from Raising Godly Tomatoes, a book by a mom of ten.

Elizabeth likened parenting to gardening. If you've ever grown tomatoes you know they are great fun in the garden. However, if you don't stake them up and tend to them, they sprawl out. Then what happens? The fruit touches the ground, often it's blighted or ruined. If you stake the plant carefully it bears much fruit. If you don't, it can still bear fruit, but nowhere near what it had the POTENTIAL to do.

 

:D

[MelanieM]

:hug: I am currently reading a new parenting book by Carol Tuttle called The Child Whisperer. I really feel like it could help you to better understand your son and his actions, and find some ways of relating to him to help heal this. If you happen to purchase the book this week you can get some free bonuses from the book website, including the audio and ebook version, and some great video resources.

 

Wishing you the best of luck in getting to the bottom of this.

[justamouse]

I agree with the evaluation for as pie, and what Kalanamack said.

 

You cannot punish it out of these kids, they don't get it. This is why stripping the room doesn't work and only makes things worse. An NT kid might get it, but a spectrum kid? No way.