After Derek Owens Physics?

[Jugglin'5]

Just trying to think ahead...

 

If you have a younger student (I have a 9th grader) taking Derek Owens Physics, what do you plan for their next physics course? Do you have your science sequence mapped out? This is new territory for me as my two older students are taking physics as a junior and senior. Yes, I have 3 students taking physics right now, lol.

 

Also, have any of you who had a prospective engineering student had you child take physics and calculus at the CC instead of going the AP route? Pros and cons?

[regentrude]

Also' date=' have any of you who had a prospective engineering student had you child take physics and calculus at the CC instead of going the AP route? Pros and cons?[/quote']

 

The question is whether you are planning for them to take those in order to earn college credit and test out of their classes later.

 

I am not a fan of earning college credit for calculus and physics through a CC course for a STEM interested student; very often, the quality of the CC course is low compared to the same course at their engineering school. I also do not find that credit for AP is the best solution in these cases, because the class at their STEM school may quite possibly cover more material in more depth.

 

For my own student who is interested in STEM, we are doing a rigorous AP level calculus course at home, but we strongly encourage her to retake calc at the university. For physics, she is taking a calculus based engineering physics course at a STEM university, not at a CC - this should earn her transferable college credit for a course that is on par with what she would have elsewhere.

 

We often have the weaker students go take their math classes at CC because they are significantly easier. It is not something I would encourage for my student - unless she was planing to retake the course in college, then it this would be a good introduction to the material.

My transfer students from community college usually tell me that the courses here at the university are much more rigorous than what they have been used to; I feel a future engineering student should take the best possible course available, not the easiest.

 

So, I would definitely research the quality of your CC courses and decide then.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Ds took DO physics in 9th grade. In 10th grade, he took Landry Academy's Exercise Physiology & Sports Medicine (1/2 credit) and Earth Science at CC. In 11th grade, he's taking Biology at CC (wanted Chemistry but couldn't get the right lab). He is planning to take Chemistry next semester or next year. There are many other science options at CC that I would have allowed him to choose from, but these ones had the labs that he could attend (we have scheduling challenges due to basketball).

 

I would have allowed him to take calc-based physics at CC, but by the time he takes calc, he will have fulfilled more than his fair share of science classes.

 

I have a friend who has graduated 5 students. The oldest 2 did not have CC available to them and they attended PS in HS. The younger 3 took advantage of dual enrollment at CC. 2 of the 3 younger dc took many CC classes and went on to get engineering degrees - one at Georgia Tech and one at Florida Institute of Technology. The students provided very positive reviews of the CC math classes/teachers. On the Georgia Tech website, you can look up what classes will and won't transfer from different colleges. Both calculus and physics transfer there. That indicates to me that our CC does a decent job because I think Georgia Tech is a decent engineering school.

 

OTOH, I look at CC as a really good high school. If ds's credits transfer, fine. If they don't transfer, fine. Ds does not know what he wants to major in or where he wants to apply to college. I could see perhaps civil engineering or math, but I could also see athletic trainer or sports management or business. Basketball is his passion, not academics.

 

Whether or not he retakes calc at university will be his decision. I will advise based on the school - Univ of North Florida - no, Northwestern - yes/maybe. FWIW, I took AP Calculus in high school 30+ years ago and skipped the first quarter of Calculus at Northwestern without any issues. I'm not sure if they are still on the quarter system these days. FWIW, I have a degree in math.

 

We chose CC over AP mainly because CC is free in 10th-12th grade here. In-person classes were more desirable than online AP classes or working with mom, who could do calculus but has never taken physics. CC has a decent reputation.

 

HTH!

[elfgivas]

:bigear:

[regentrude]

On the Georgia Tech website, you can look up what classes will and won't transfer from different colleges. Both calculus and physics transfer there. That indicates to me that our CC does a decent job because I think Georgia Tech is a decent engineering school.

 

I do not understand the criteria universities use when they determine whether to accept CC credit or not. Every semester, many of our students choose to take calculus at the CC because the course is easier and covers less material. This is common knowledge, the students know, the advisors know, and some advisors actually send their students to take math at CC instead of at the university. The university (an engineering school!) accepts the credit, but the student has gotten a lot less in content and depth than he would have had he taken the course at the university.

I don't get it. I don't know why the school accepts credit for a course that is clearly below the standard for its own courses - so I am hesitant to infer anything about the quality of a course from the fact that the credit is accepted.

[abbeyej]

Ds took DO's Physics in 8th grade. He's in 9th and taking chemistry right now. Our planned sequence is:

9th- Chemistry

10th- Biology

11th- AP Physics

12th- AP Environmental Science

 

... Technically, he's doing work that would prepare him for the AP Chem test this year, but I'm honestly not sure how well that's going to work. I'll evaluate at the end of this semester whether or not it looks like he could be adequately prepared for the AP exam in the spring. If he is, I want him to take it. If he'd be struggling to pull off a 3, we'll just wait. I'll follow the same pattern with biology next year -- we'll do the AP work, but evaluate later in the year whether he's really going to be prepared for the exam.

[Jugglin'5]

If he took AP Physics as a senior, how should the DO Physics be listed on his transcript, I wonder? It seems a bit heavier than Conceptual Physics, but I am not sure about this.

 

Our CC and state system has a course numbering system that makes course transfer between CC and unis easy. I have heard that the engineering schools really want you to retake calculus and physics even if you've gotten 5s on your APs, but they can't force you to, only recommend it. However, I hear that many engineering students do take the calc and physics at the CC successfully.

 

It seems like doing calc and physics at CC senior year is a high risk, but high reward proposition compared to AP exams. :confused:

[EKS]

If he took AP Physics as a senior' date=' how should the DO Physics be listed on his transcript, I wonder? It seems a bit heavier than Conceptual Physics, but I am not sure about this.

 

[/quote']

 

I would list DO physics as Physics. It is *not* conceptual physics. It is based on the Giancoli text, which contains solid algebra based physics. In fact, Giancoli is frequently used for AP Physics B courses.

[elfgivas]

Ds took DO's Physics in 8th grade. He's in 9th and taking chemistry right now. Our planned sequence is:

9th- Chemistry

10th- Biology

11th- AP Physics

12th- AP Environmental Science

 

... Technically, he's doing work that would prepare him for the AP Chem test this year, but I'm honestly not sure how well that's going to work. I'll evaluate at the end of this semester whether or not it looks like he could be adequately prepared for the AP exam in the spring. If he is, I want him to take it. If he'd be struggling to pull off a 3, we'll just wait. I'll follow the same pattern with biology next year -- we'll do the AP work, but evaluate later in the year whether he's really going to be prepared for the exam.

 

wondering what you are using for chemistry?

[8filltheheart]

 

For my own student who is interested in STEM, we are doing a rigorous AP level calculus course at home, but we strongly encourage her to retake calc at the university.

 

Regentrude, is your dd using AoPS cal? If so, is there a specific reason why you want her to re-take cal at the university? :confused:

[Jugglin'5]

I would list DO physics as Physics. It is *not* conceptual physics. It is based on the Giancoli text, which contains solid algebra based physics. In fact, Giancoli is frequently used for AP Physics B courses.

So, taking Physics AP B would be redundant? Perhaps we should lean toward CC, then.

[regentrude]

Regentrude, is your dd using AoPS cal? If so, is there a specific reason why you want her to re-take cal at the university? :confused:

 

We are using AoPS and have several reasons why we might want her to retake calculus at the university:

1. With any conceptually difficult material, a repeated exposure is highly beneficial. Taking the course at the university, she will have her mind free from thinking about mechanical details and will have more appreciation for the underlying concepts and the general theory.

My DH, who is highly gifted and a theoretical physicist, had taught himself the first four semesters of university math before college. He insists that he learned a lot while taking the classes, even though he had studied most of the material already. I also see this in physics that concepts are much more appreciated the second time around when the student is not scrambling to keep his head above water and plug the right things into the right equations.

 

2. Calculus is part of a series of math courses that, at a good school, should be designed to build on each other. There is no substitute for calc 3, AP does not cover this - so the student will have to take part 3 of a sequence (plus several more semesters of math). Taking the whole series at the same institution ensures that there are no holes and that the student gets the full benefit of the sequence.

 

All this may not be important for a student who just has to get through calc to check the box and never look back. But since she is interested in physics, it may be quite possible that she will have to use calculus in many of her other classes and possibly on a daily basis throughout her life- which requires a much more in-depth understanding of the theory than most students get out of calculus.

 

ETA: Of course, this all only works if the math sequence at the university is of sufficient quality. If math has a bad reputation at the school she chooses, she will most likely take the AP test and try to get credit, or attempt credit by examination. But the absolutely stellar math courses I had the privilege to take taught me more than any textbook, including AoPS, could ever have. No book can substitute for a truly great teacher.

Edited October 23, 2012 by regentrude

[abbeyej]

wondering what you are using for chemistry?

 

ThinkWell and Zumdahl. ... I wish I could find something that worked as well as Derek Owens for Chem and Bio!

[Jonibee]

I do not understand the criteria universities use when they determine whether to accept CC credit or not. Every semester, many of our students choose to take calculus at the CC because the course is easier and covers less material. This is common knowledge, the students know, the advisors know, and some advisors actually send their students to take math at CC instead of at the university. The university (an engineering school!) accepts the credit, but the student has gotten a lot less in content and depth than he would have had he taken the course at the university.

I don't get it. I don't know why the school accepts credit for a course that is clearly below the standard for its own courses - so I am hesitant to infer anything about the quality of a course from the fact that the credit is accepted.

 

 

Your post reminded me of something I once heard:

 

You know what they call someone who passes medical school with the lowest average possible?

 

Answer: Doctor.

 

Sometimes the lowest possible mark is good enough. Sometimes it is hard enough to plan out our kid's education from K through high school, and then try to find the "rigorous" college as well -- especially in areas that we know nothing about.

 

In my neck of the woods, in the economy of my household, the community college beats out the local universities because of the money factor many times over. If my kids get an A at the community college and then "struggle" in their junior year at the university (where their credits transfer), well, I am sorry.

 

Sometimes it comes to a choice between affordable or take out a loan for the "better" education. Sometimes it is a difference between 15 kids in a class (cc) or 200 in a class. They are all choices. Money makes my choice more often than I wish.

 

I rest knowing that I have taught my kids how to struggle. I have also taught them that there are many paths to the same destination. Sometimes there are struggles on the way. Many times, they will wish they had learned "this concept" earlier or more thoroughly, but I've done this too long and learned long ago that even when my kids "cover the material in an exemplary way" it does not mean they will remember it next year or even next month. Such is the human brain, sigh.

[Jugglin'5]

This is a good reminder, Jonibee. :)

 

Your post reminded me of something I once heard:

 

You know what they call someone who passes medical school with the lowest average possible?

 

Answer: Doctor.

 

Sometimes the lowest possible mark is good enough. Sometimes it is hard enough to plan out our kid's education from K through high school, and then try to find the "rigorous" college as well -- especially in areas that we know nothing about.

 

In my neck of the woods, in the economy of my household, the community college beats out the local universities because of the money factor many times over. If my kids get an A at the community college and then "struggle" in their junior year at the university (where their credits transfer), well, I am sorry.

 

Sometimes it comes to a choice between affordable or take out a loan for the "better" education. Sometimes it is a difference between 15 kids in a class (cc) or 200 in a class. They are all choices. Money makes my choice more often than I wish.

 

I rest knowing that I have taught my kids how to struggle. I have also taught them that there are many paths to the same destination. Sometimes there are struggles on the way. Many times, they will wish they had learned "this concept" earlier or more thoroughly, but I've done this too long and learned long ago that even when my kids "cover the material in an exemplary way" it does not mean they will remember it next year or even next month. Such is the human brain, sigh.

[EKS]

So' date=' taking Physics AP B would be redundant? Perhaps we should lean toward CC, then.[/quote']

 

No, it would not be redundant. DO physics is *not* AP Physics B. My point in mentioning the text that it is based on was to clarify that DO physics is a real algebra based physics course and not of the "conceptual" variety.

 

That said, if you have the choice, I would definitely go for a CC course over an online AP Physics course, as I searched long and hard and could not find one I liked.

[snowbeltmom]

No, it would not be redundant. DO physics is *not* AP Physics B. My point in mentioning the text that it is based on was to clarify that DO physics is a real algebra based physics course and not of the "conceptual" variety...

.

:iagree:

My oldest took AP Physics B in 8th grade, and my middle child is taking the DO physics this year (also 8th grade). The DO course is great, but it is not at the same level as the AP Physics B course.

 

My middle child will take the AP Physics courses in high school. I am still undecided whether it will be at the "B" or "C" level. Also, the CB is changing the Physic B exam, and I haven't studied those changes yet either.

 

In my area, the vast majority of schools have the kids take "honors" physics and then take AP Physics B. No schools in my area even offer the C level classes.

[Jugglin'5]

I wonder if Derek Owens has any plans to do an actual AP Physics class eventually? :bigear:

[EKS]

I wonder if Derek Owens has any plans to do an actual AP Physics class eventually? :bigear:

 

That would be so incredibly awesome!

[regentrude]

Sometimes the lowest possible mark is good enough.

 

This is a philosophy that is so far removed from the way I or any of my family members feel that I really can not wrap my mind around it.

I know that this is a prevalent attitude which I observe frequently in my students, but I have never been able to understand why somebody would settle for the bare minimum and not strive for excellence in what they have found worth doing. If this makes me a freak, so be it.

 

ETA: I would not really want to have the doctor with the work ethic that the bare minimum is fine - I would want a doctor who strives to do the best job possible. (And I'd say the same for my plumber.) The same way I feel about my job, teaching: you would not want your student taught by an instructor who did the smallest possible effort he could get away with before being fired - you'd want a teacher who strives to do the best job she possibly can.

 

 

 

In my neck of the woods, in the economy of my household, the community college beats out the local universities because of the money factor many times over.

Please note that my comment had absolutely nothing to do with financial constraints; I am sorry if you misread my post that way. I was not judging anybody who takes a CC course over a university class for financial reasons! I was talking specifically about people who choose the CC course so that they can get away with learning less. THAT is what I can not comprehend.

 

But then, as one of my fellow profs pointed out, education seems to be the only product where there are customers who are happy to get as little as possible for their money.

Edited October 24, 2012 by regentrude

[elfgivas]

ThinkWell and Zumdahl. ... I wish I could find something that worked as well as Derek Owens for Chem and Bio!

 

this is what we have found for at least part of bio. dd is taking genetics, environmental science and evolution. we are delighted!

 

http://sherrisonlineclasses.weebly.com/index.html

 

someone from here, or from the yahoo secular well trained mind loop recommended her, and we are delighted! we are also using it as a way to teach how to do a course, as opposed to study a subject, so she is taking notes, revising notes, doing homework and then reviewing notes and homework before the class.

 

hth,

ann

[Laura in CA]

If he took AP Physics as a senior' date=' how should the DO Physics be listed on his transcript, I wonder? It seems a bit heavier than Conceptual Physics, but I am not sure about this.[/quote']

 

I would list DO physics as Physics. It is *not* conceptual physics. It is based on the Giancoli text, which contains solid algebra based physics. In fact, Giancoli is frequently used for AP Physics B courses.

 

My son did DO physics last year (honors option) and I will list it as either Physics or Honors Physics on his transcript. He received a score of 800 on the SAT2 physics subject test, and I feel he is well prepared for either AP Physics C or physics at the CC.

 

... Perhaps I should add a disclaimer that my son had finished AP Calc BC by the time he took DO physics, so he sometimes read about the topics in a calc-based physics text such as Tipler. Also, my husband and the other dad who helped run the labs both have PhDs in physics, allowing for high-level discussion. Having said that, my son didn't do *that* much extra work; I feel DO physics is an excellent course. My son's friend with whom we did the labs did not have the math background my son did (in fact, he had had neither geometry nor trig yet), and his bent is definitely more toward language and arts, and he received a strong score (730, I believe) on the SAT2 subject test.

[Handmaiden]

I wonder if Derek Owens has any plans to do an actual AP Physics class eventually? :bigear:

 

After my son's physics class with Derek Owens was over' date=' I asked him if he had plans to teach an AP Physics class. His response:

 

AP Physics might be a possibility in the distant future, but not any time soon. My current load of courses has been keeping me extremely busy. It would be an interesting and fun project, but right now I simply don’t have the time. Maybe one day…

[abbeyej]

I wonder if Derek Owens has any plans to do an actual AP Physics class eventually? :bigear:

 

I pester him about it periodically. :) I happen to know that he has also taught AP Econ and likes teaching it too, so *someday* that could possibly happen. ... I think he has to get more of his work moved over to the Lucid Education side of things (which runs a little better on its own, without taking such a shocking amount of his daily time) before he can consider producing more classes though.