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Can we talk about Latin? Do you feel it's valuable or pointless?


ILiveInFlipFlops
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It's not essential. It's not pointless. It can substitute for other subjects. It can steal time from other subjects. There are so many pros and cons. If you do Latin it will be an important part of the student's education. If you don't do it, something else will be equally important.

 

I go around and around with it, teaching it and not teaching it. I don't think it really matters one way or the other in the long run. I think it all evens out.

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Thanks, everyone. I appreciate all the discussion and insight. I discussed this with DD10, and she says that while she doesn't love studying Latin, she does enjoy the benefits of it (she loves spotting Latin derivatives and is very proud of herself when she can compose or translate short sentences or decode a word she's never heard before because she recognizes the roots). She can also see the longer-term benefits as well. She wants to keep going. I'm the one who's doing all the whining and moaning :lol:

 

I'll look into some other programs mentioned here. She really likes the format of LfC A, but I liked the explanations in the level of Latin Prep that I looked at after reading 8's posts. One of my big problems with LfC is the lack of explanation. We do learn side by side (I have my own books and we both take the tests), but I do still have to teach to supplement the DVD instruction. Memorization only takes you so far, and I can't explain to her what I don't understand myself! I might see if I can get a copy of LP to supplement my own understanding so I can teach it better for her as well.

 

Thanks again!

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If I had to choose Latin or a living language, I'd choose the living language. If the latter, then I'd add in some kind of brain training - serious logic, for example - to compensate for losing that aspect of Latin. As it was, the boys learned Mandarin and Latin, then added in French. We didn't drop any of them, just added the other languages in.

 

Calvin is still studying Latin and is now getting deeply into Latin poetry. He is experiencing such joy from it. Hobbes is doing well in Latin too, but may drop it in a couple of years. He will still have a basis in the roots of English and the brain training that comes from doing hard things.

 

Laura

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OK, I'm considering that maybe this is the problem. What did you switch to?

 

One of the things that is driving me crazy is the stupid macrons. I cannot figure out their purpose. Are they an accent mark? How do you know when to use them and when not to? I've found errors and inconsistencies in LfC's use of macrons (and their spelling, and other things), and I have a strong suspicion that the kids chanting in the video are not that accurate in their pronunciation, all of which is making understanding the use of the macrons harder. It's making it very hard for me to teach the program, but DD10 really likes the format, so I'm not sure what to do about that. Someone once told me to just leave off the macrons for now and learn how to use them later when the whole thing makes more sense, but I may be too Type A for that :lol:

 

:iagree:There were too many errors in LFC for me.

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This is really interesting. I didn't realize SYRWTLL is not thorough. Is there a specific aspect that isn't enough, such as vocab, grammar, or amount of translation work, or is it an overall thing? I will be sticking with it for at least the next two years, because it's a good fit or my student, but would like to know the ramifications. My tentative plan was to have her go through Wheelocks after SYRWTLL.

Wheelock's starts at square 1, without assuming any prior knowledge of Latin, so any prep a student has before beginning Wheelock's is a bonus. My 8th grader is using Wheelock's for Latin 1 this year (Lukeion), with no Latin prep at all. He did have a year of Greek (Athenaze), so had some familiarity with an inflected language, but he had zero experience with Latin — and he has straight As in that class. My 5th grader has done GSWL and is now using Lively Latin with additional grammar help (provided by me) via New First Steps in Latin. She'll start Wheelock's in 7th with Lukeion, which puts her in their AP Latin in 10th, so I figure any Latin she does before 7th will give her a bit of a head start, but isn't really that critical.

 

In fact, the Barrs say that, in their experience, kids who've had years of elementary-level Latin generally only have a few months head start on kids who are coming in with little prior experience, so for anyone who plans to eventually use Wheelock's, I think the most important "prep" you can do is make sure your kids really enjoy Latin and want to stick with it!

 

Jackie

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I have a standard spiel on this, which repeats but I hope synthesizes points already made in this thread:

 

Latin is the ur-language that unites a lot of languages used in the west. If it's true, as is claimed on Wikipedia, that the study of Interlingua helps one puzzle through Spanish better than the same amount of time spent actually studying Spanish, then Latin would be at least that useful, since Interlingua is basically Latin without inflectional endings. It's also possible with a knowledge of Latin to suss out Spanish or Italian with a few simple rules.

 

It has also been mentioned that Latin helps with learning biological nomenclature. Of course, you can also just study the nomenclature by itself. Most do. Those, however, don't end up learning much about Latin. The person who studies Latin, on the other hand, gets way out ahead in the study of scientific nomenclature and is in the enviable position of not merely memorizing, but understanding. Note that this advantage is cumulative with the advantage discussed above.

 

Latin is often cited as a good way to build up verbal scores in standardized tests, and not without evidence. But in fact, it simply stands to reason. 60% of English words come from Latin, and that jumps to 80% when you look at words of three or more syllables. How many syllables on average are you expecting per word in the SAT? Furthermore, those English words from Latin mean what they mean because of morphological rules that are not themselves carried over into English morphology, so English doesn't teach you how to decode them. You can just study the English vocabulary directly, but the same amount of effort in Latin vocabulary plus derivational rules yields a rich English vocabulary as well. It's also possible to just study the cheat sheet on Latin derivation, which will certainly help. But you won't get any of the advantages mentioned in the previous two paragraphs, which are cumulative.

 

Latin is also a highly ordered and logical language, and is traditionally promoted as part of a complete curriculum that exercises rational faculties. Of course, you can and should study logic itself as well as mathematics and rhetoric. But it's not as though the advantages of all these approaches to analytic training don't stack. They are cumulative with those of Latin, which includes all the above discussed advantages as a free bonus.

 

It's true that you don't come out of a Latin class with the ability to communicate with living people (ignoring for the moment that the spoken Latin community is growing now that the internet is here to connect them). But let's not pretend that high schools are cranking out fluent second language speakers either. You can parlay your halting high school French into continuing studies, but most people don't. They let it wither and fade, and the advantage in principle that it's an actual living language is rarely an advantage in fact. The opportunity cost for that advantage that never manifested is all the things above that Latin teaches you, which are cumulative.

 

Latin builds a diverse intellectual portfolio which pays reliable dividends however the market changes. Modern languages are high-yield investments with little liquidity

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I was forced to take Latin in 7th and 8th grade. I liked it though. I loved how it was so logical. It really made me think. I saw it as logic games.

It has helped in learning Spanish, French and understanding English grammar.

I have even learned to apply it Chinese somehow.

I love to read literature and be able to translate some of the latin sayings.

 

Now teaching it has been a whole other story.

I wish I could hire my old Latin teacher and wouldn;t even begin to know where to find him.

 

But we have looked at and tried a number of curriculums but so far my kids are having fun with I Speak Latin. They are ages 8yrs and 10yrs. I believe with something like Latin you do have to make it fun considering I see it as as a supplement/elective to our curriculum as our family needs to focus on the basics since they started in public school and got behind. We are in catch up mode.

 

I will be using Getting Started with Latin when the baby arrives. Any day now.

 

Yesterday I had all the kids at the board learning the Latin Alphabet and numbers and my 8yrs old was being drilled at the board to learn her latin numbers. 10yrs olds more or less knew them but getting good review. So the 8yrs old learned her Latin numbers and Roman numerals at the same time. And the 10yrs old would say "BENE" when done and the 3yrs old would chime in as well. KODAK moment.

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You can parlay your halting high school French into continuing studies, but most people don't. They let it wither and fade, and the advantage in principle that it's an actual living language is rarely an advantage in fact. The opportunity cost for that advantage that never manifested is all the things above that Latin teaches you, which are cumulative.

 

This can happen with Latin as well--the fading.

 

I remain unconvinced. There are too many factors at play to make sweeping generalizations about either its value alone or in relation to crossover benefits.

Edited by Hilltop Academy
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I know that they are dealing w/a vocabulary gap and ds has forgotten some earlier concepts, but beyond that, sorry, I am not able to definitively state the tutor's assessment......but mainly my sense is that getting through all of the LP and SYRWTLLatin books will put you at having completely a solid Latin 1 and probably about 1/2 of Latin 2. I get the feeling that ds is about 1/2 a semester behind and could use a broader vocabulary in order to be solidly on pace w/appropriate translations....so not quite "really" at a solid Latin 3 level (though we thought that he was since he had completed all LP levels and SYRWTLLatin 2 and was working through 3.....I think 2 and 3 are probably more typical of an actual Latin 2 equivalent??? :confused:

 

The content of SY Latin would give you the grammar to get you to UK GCSE level (age 16). In addition, a teacher would be teaching original texts (maybe part of the Aeneid and other pieces) and the associated vocabulary. These texts are not included in the books because they change every few years dependent on the syllabus set for the exams.

 

Anyone carrying on with Latin from ages 16-18 would be using further texts. Calvin is using an Essential Latin Grammar produced by the Scottish Classics Association and is otherwise working deeply into original texts.

 

In brief then: in the UK, SY Latin would be used up to age 16, supplemented with original texts. The series does not go beyond that.

 

Laura

Edited by Laura Corin
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I remain unconvinced. There are too many factors at play to make sweeping generalizations about either its value alone or in relation to crossover benefits.

I have asked myself why it is that homeschoolers are so much more concerned about Latin than parents of public or even private school children. I think it's because those others don't care as much, and the institutions they depend on don't care as much. Whatever arguments I may make for utility of studying Latin, these are window dressing. Homeschoolers embrace Latin because it's an outstanding example of what they can do better than outside schooling can do. And maybe that is not enough. But, that benefit is cumulative with all the other benefits I mentioned.

 

As for me, I will be teaching my child Latin -- reading, writing and composition. And I fully expect that most of the people he can communicate with this way will have been homeschooled.

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I have asked myself why it is that homeschoolers are so much more concerned about Latin than parents of public or even private school children. I think it's because those others don't care as much, and the institutions they depend on don't care as much. Whatever arguments I may make for utility of studying Latin, these are window dressing. Homeschoolers embrace Latin because it's an outstanding example of what they can do better than outside schooling can do. And maybe that is not enough. But, that benefit is cumulative with all the other benefits I mentioned.

 

I would add furthermore that Latin's one of the languages which is both helpful and where the student doesn't need to worry much about accent/etc. This makes it easier for a parent to teach without worrying about native speakers/accents/dialects/etc.

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We're only in a small way into Latin with my third grade boys, but I can already say that Latin has been valuable.

 

The first child has already begun to learn, through Latin and Math, about the importance of how things are written down. He was unconvinced with Spelling, because he could still "read" and understand what the words meant, regardless of whether he spelled it correctly or not. With math a mistake means he got the problem wrong, with Latin, he can easily see how a single mistake at the end of the word changes the meaning of what he meant to say. It's part of his nature to blast ahead without thinking, so Latin has forced him to slow down and use his memory to think it through.

 

His twin is hFA, and likes math, but dislikes anything with words. He loves Latin. I don't think I have to say more. Just his, "Salve, mater!" in the morning makes me smile.

 

Regardless of whether they get ANYTHING out of Latin in the future, the rewards of this year alone have been worth the thirty minutes a day.

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I haven't read the entire thread.

 

My eldest truly enjoyed Latin for the 2+ years he studied it at home. He absorbed it easily and made many connections in science, history, and English language arts, and I fully believe it played a big part in his placement into Spanish II as a ps freshman after only dabbling a bit in elementary Spanish.

 

My older dd has just started Latin. She likes it, but not nearly as much as her brother did. I do think it will have some similar benefits, but not to the same extent.

 

My younger dd has ZERO interest in Latin, and I have no plans to force a full on program on her. I do intend to keep going with Latin roots/stems through MCT, VfCR, etc. so she can get some of the benefits, like SAT prep.

 

All subjects can have special benefits (forensic science, African literature, Irish-American history, AP Calc, advanced auto repair, competetive fencing) but that will never mean they're all right for every student.

Latin was perfect for my son, is a nice addition for one dd, and isn't the greatest fit for the other dd. So be it.

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I have asked myself why it is that homeschoolers are so much more concerned about Latin than parents of public or even private school children.

 

I don't know this is true, I think maybe homeschoolers just have more ability to act on their concerns than other parents. I've talked to many public school parents who fondly reminisce about their Latin schooling and wish their kids could get the same.

 

As for me, I will be teaching my child Latin -- reading, writing and composition. And I fully expect that most of the people he can communicate with this way will have been homeschooled.

 

I think the real question is when to being Latin instruction. Though I'm firmly in the pro-Latin camp, I'm skeptical of the value of teaching it in the elementary years.

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I think the real question is when to being Latin instruction. Though I'm firmly in the pro-Latin camp, I'm skeptical of the value of teaching it in the elementary years.

 

In the elementary years our goals are introduction and familiarity in the same way we might do memory work about history they don't get the depths of. We slowly build and build throughout their education. I don't aim for mastery in any way in elementary.

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I don't know this is true, I think maybe homeschoolers just have more ability to act on their concerns than other parents. I've talked to many public school parents who fondly reminisce about their Latin schooling and wish their kids could get the same.

Well, I was also neglecting the influence that the Dorothy Sayers essay The Lost Tools of Learning has had on the homeschooling movement, not least because of the influence it had on the book on which this message board is founded.

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