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I hadn't thought of that. Add the cigarette burns to her property and teaching the child to hit. A restraining order for the grandparents might be the way to go.

 

I cannot understand why it has happened at all. I have never understood some of the family issues I have seen on this board. These are my kids. I have to allow their dad to visit no one else. I would never allow anyone to play with my kid like that. They would never see my baby again. I would follow the courts order to a T. Especially his part of payment. He can visit with his kid thats it.

 

I would be skipping down there to file an order laughing all the way.

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Oh, well in that case it is time for him to do more.

 

He should be the one picking up the baby. No one else.

He should be paying his share of baby's expenses. Start sending bills for half of the medical visits, medicines, insurance, etc.

 

Also start demanding that no one smoke around the baby or in the house that the baby is in. Take the father back to court on this if necessary. They won't be able to find an expert anywhere that will say it is safe for the baby to be in the house where someone is smoking. It is a health hazard. (ETA) If the Father wants to visit the baby try to get the court to say he has to get a smoke free room in a hotel or limit his visitation to times at your house so he can keep the child out of the health hazard that is the grandparents house.

 

Don't send the baby with clothing or other supplies that could be contaminated by cigarette smoke. Send the father (not the grandparents. All correspondence should go to the father only) a letter stating the above and that she will no longer purchase supplies or clothing that will be contaminated.

 

Make them want to fold up and go home.

 

The idea isn't to get anything, but to document for the courts for later. ;)

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

 

 

Would it be possible for you DD to convince the father that at some point down the road this is going to cost HIM a HUGE amount of money?

Babies are cheap, kids get more and more expensive as they get older.

Could she convince him that someday she will get a good judge and then he's going to owe her a ton of money?

If she could convince him of that, would he sign away his rights?

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My husband and I each have one child from our first marriage. We have different problems with our ex-spouses and their families but we have learned a few things over the years that I'm hoping will help your family.

 

1. You MUST ALWAYS do what's right for the child. If that means sending diapers and clothes and buying new ones when they're ruined, do it. Your grandchild needs to be taken care of 100% of the time.

 

2. You need to document, document, document. All payments made, visitation times and dates, including where the child was taken, what happened, etc. The documentation was invaluable for me dealing with my (idiot) ex-husband and his family. I have years worth of documentation, and the courts DID look at all of it. Many judges and CPS workers can smell a rat. I am thankful that the judge in charge of our case was on the ball, but the documentIon being so detailed helped!

 

3. Stick to the court schedule even if its inconvenient. In a year or two, you may be able to swing different scheduling, but right now, it's best to play by the rules. And I agree with the person who commented that your dd should "play dumb" about it.

 

4. Kids are not dumb. As your dgd grows, explain things to her in clear, truthful, age-appropriate language. My kids know that they have crazy family members (including a mom and a sperm donor). As long as your grandchild sees that you are always there for her, always making sure she's ok and has what she needs, she will slowly but surely realize that the other side of the family does not.

 

5. Money isn't everything. Your dgd needs what she needs. Get it and you will have piece of mind.

 

6. If the grandparents have no legal rights, only give the child to the father, and cut off the visits with the grandparents if the cigarette smoking and car seat issue happens even one more time. Give one warning to them about this, reminding them that they have no legal visitation rights.

 

7. If you have any questions about safety, giving the child over in a public place is smart. And he sacrifices his visit if you think he's drinking or otherwise unsafe. Call the police and document it. I have denied my Ex's visits on more than one occasion.

 

Unfortunately I have had experience with all of this- everything will turn out fine if you play the game properly. Unfortunately, that's what people like this turn it into. Good luck!

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She doesn't need sympathy. Right now she feels all upset and victimized like someone is doing something to her. That feeling is going to destroy her if she doesn't get real. She's not a victim here. She chose this and she needs to realize it. Once she does, she can start to deal with it like and adult and begin to minimize the damage to herself and her daughter as much as possible. But until she stops feeling sorry for herself, nothing will help.

 

If by 'chose' you mean decided to keep the baby, than yes, she chose this. She did not choose the situation, however. People change. The father and his family are not the people we thought they were. Never in a million years did we think this situation would be as difficult as it is.

 

I also must have written something in the wrong way - I tend to do that often - because I don't think Dd is feeling sorry for herself. She is working two part time jobs, going to school full time, breastfeeding, making homemade baby food, being a mom, playing varsity athletics, and trying to deal with people who treat her with disdain and contempt at every turn. She pays her bills, goes to work with a smile and is complimented by many about her pleasant attitude and inner strength.

 

Maybe my feelings are coming through in the posts and I am sorry for that.

 

But she should get some sympathy. She is a 19/20 year old who had a baby with her boyfriend but is fighting a battle with his 40-something year old parents.

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I have been reading the posts as I get a chance - thank you to all who have responded, all of you. I need open and honest discourse if I am going to be able to work through this. Remember, my OP was asking for advice on how I should proceed in advising DD. I tend to be all talk with little to no action when it comes to controversy. I also tend to be somewhat passive-aggressive and I do not want to counsel DD into following my behavior.

 

I am amazed and impressed by her and how she has managed the situation thus far - especially with a mom like me.

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Follow the law. If the visitation is order is for the father, then the baby is only handed over to the father, period. I agree with everything in the above post.

 

Also, hand baby off to father with a witness and in a public place. There is too much he said/she said in this kind of situation. He can't say "she did this or that" if the hand off is in the McDonald's playland and there are other adults around. If he appears drunk or otherwise unsafe to take the child, call the police from the McDonald's. They are more likely to respond quickly to a public disturbance call then an "custody" dispute in a private home. She just should not hand over this child at a private residence because these people can't be trusted.

 

She must be strong because if she appears weak, they will take advantage of it.

 

Do not agree to changes in the visitation schedule. Do not let the threat of CPS make her knees wilt. The vast majority of CPS workers I've met aren't push overs. They know the law. They know what jerks look like, sound like, and act like. They'll interview her, they'll interview him, they'll check the paperwork and discover that the grandparents were not awarded visitation, just the father and he isn't doing his part. They don't rip children away from their homes on whims and they are very partial to whatever the court ordered. Too many people allow the threat of CPS being called cripple them into not doing what is best.

 

 

:iagree: My ex BIL sounds just like the dad here. His mom was primarily in charge and they would send my sisters kids home in rags. I mean, you seriously couldn't identify what they were wearing as actual clothes. She would ask for the clothes she sent them in and xBIL could never find them. She started sending them to his house in what they came home in the time before. She really didn't want to, but she was going broke buying new clothes every other week. After a visitation or 2, the kids were coming home well-dressed. They had just been taking advantage of my sister by taking the kids clothes and giving her back unusable stuff. I suspect the grandparents here are doing the same. Don't send the baby with stuff. They should provide everything. Stick to the law, but be nice about it. Don't fight with them. Just keep repeating the terms of custody as many times as you need to and document everything. Oh, and if dad can't bother to come get the baby, too bad- he doesn't get visitation that week.

 

:grouphug::grouphug: I'm sorry y'all are going through this. I truly know how hard it is.

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If by 'chose' you mean decided to keep the baby, than yes, she chose this. She did not choose the situation, however. People change. The father and his family are not the people we thought they were. Never in a million years did we think this situation would be as difficult as it is.

 

I also must have written something in the wrong way - I tend to do that often - because I don't think Dd is feeling sorry for herself. She is working two part time jobs, going to school full time, breastfeeding, making homemade baby food, being a mom, playing varsity athletics, and trying to deal with people who treat her with disdain and contempt at every turn. She pays her bills, goes to work with a smile and is complimented by many about her pleasant attitude and inner strength.

 

Maybe my feelings are coming through in the posts and I am sorry for that.

 

But she should get some sympathy. She is a 19/20 year old who had a baby with her boyfriend but is fighting a battle with his 40-something year old parents.

 

:grouphug: to you and dd!

 

That said, the purple part is worth reiterating. They may have used their son to get visitation for him, but they don't have any legal rights themselves. So, no more handing off to the grandparents. End.that.right.now! They have NO legal standing. The dad must follow the court order and the visitation schedule. She is under no obligation to accomodate them. For that matter, she doesn't even have to take phone calls from them. Either the dodo head will come around and start following the court order and take initiative, or he won't. If he doesn't, she only need to keep documenting. In a couple of years, all of those no-shows could add up to his having visitation revoked.

 

But, the grandparents...she does not have to put up with them.

 

All exchanges with the father should be in public and she should have a witness with her.

 

I'm so sorry all of you are going through this.

 

Faith

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Maybe my feelings are coming through in the posts and I am sorry for that.

 

But she should get some sympathy. She is a 19/20 year old who had a baby with her boyfriend but is fighting a battle with his 40-something year old parents.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I'm sorry. Really.

 

All I meant, is that she's going to have to get tough. Hard, even - or these people are going to tear her apart.

 

However, since reading more in this thread, I agree with all the others - there is just NO REASON for her to be in a battle with these people. None. The battle is over. They don't interact with her anymore. Problem solved.

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I don't know how to write this without creating more drama (which I don't want)..but the father's attorney included a clause in the court papers that say that the father can and will send his parents and other important persons in his life to pick up the baby due to work and farming obligations. Thus far that has meant his mom, dad and sister. DD has asked that it exclude girlfriends, best friends, etc.

 

Am I happy about the clause, no. But we took advantage of it and it has allowed me and my DH the opportunity to pick up the baby from wherever they have her at the end of visitation.

Edited by The Dragon Academy
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I agree with pps. I would advise her to deal only with the father. Meet in a public place for the handoff. Document everything, especially the stuff about the car seat. If it is illegal in your state, I would not allow the child to be put in it - there would be no visitation until they got a carseat that met the requirements of the law.

 

I would send minimal supplies, but I *would* send them. That is about the baby, not them.

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:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I'm sorry. Really.

 

All I meant, is that she's going to have to get tough. Hard, even - or these people are going to tear her apart.

 

 

No harm done. No need to be sorry. I just thought I needed to explain a bit more.

--

Them tearing her apart -

 

That is why I have stepped back and made sure DD is the one to speak to the attorney, go into court and handle all legal matters. She has to learn how to advocate for herself and her DD.

 

There are days though that I think I have expected too much from her. Which is why, when she called today, my heart broke. She sounded so sad, exhausted and defeated.

 

However, this evening she is going to buy a winter coat for her DD and plans on working on her bio lab.

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I'd be tossing a handful of wipes into a ziplock baggie, some diapers, a bottle and a garage sale sleeper/onesie combo into a plastic grocery sack and calling it good! No need to make the poor babe go without what she needs, but also no need to be giving them anything extra that's just going to be burned, lost, or come home reeking of cigarette smoke. If they don't want to carry around a plastic grocery sack then let them buy their own diaper bag!

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Based on what you just added, I guess I would be looking at getting a second consult from another attorney and focus on the smoking around baby and carseat issues. Maybe you can get supervised visits? Maybe the clause can be removed if it can be shown that grandparents are not following safety protocol?

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I don't know how to write this without creating more drama (which I don't want)..but the father's attorney included a clause in the court papers that say that the father can and will send his parents and other important persons in his life to pick up the baby due to work and farming obligations. Thus far that has meant his mom, dad and sister. DD has asked that it exclude girlfriends, best friends, etc.

 

Am I happy about the clause, no. But we took advantage of it and it has allowed me and my DH the opportunity to pick up the baby from wherever they have her at the end of visitation.

 

Would it be in everyone's best interest if you or your Dh pick the baby up? I doubt very much the grandparents would pull the "hitting" stunt with your Dh...but then, humanity surprises me every day. *sigh*

 

I feel for your DD. It sounds like she's doing the best she can, and her hands are tied in providing her baby the BEST possible solution to this. :(

 

I can't really offer any other advice than what has already been said. It's much harder to undo these custody agreements than it is to settle everything before it becomes final.

 

:grouphug:

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OP, I just wanted to say that I am *SO* glad you are there for your DD and your DGD. Yes, she needs to deal with things head on, but knowing she has you backing her up has to make the whole situation much more bearable. :grouphug:

 

I agree that the carseat and smoking issues are very concerning. That is about the little one's safety and should be non-negotiable.

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OP, I just wanted to say that I am *SO* glad you are there for your DD and your DGD. Yes, she needs to deal with things head on, but knowing she has you backing her up has to make the whole situation much more bearable. :grouphug:

 

I agree that the carseat and smoking issues are very concerning. That is about the little one's safety and should be non-negotiable.

 

 

This. Honestly, she's having to work so hard, I'd just pamper her when you can. Two of my adult daughters moved home with babies during tough spots, and, as much as they needed to work hard as parents, students, etc., they needed mama-love.

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I probably would approach this differently because my dad was the chief of police in my town when I was a kid and because I was a mandatory reporter for years, so I'm really not afraid of the system... Here's what I would do...

 

I would have her take the baby as much as possible, agreement or not, and document every single time he violated the agreement. If he gets out of parenting enough, he might decide he's no longer interested.

 

I was walk into the CPS office and ask to speak with someone. You're concerned about neglect and potentially abuse and you want some guidance on where *exactly* the line is in your state. As long as you approach it with the "Can you tell me where the line is," approach, and as long as you luck into someone who's not in a terrible mood, chances are they will be very helpful figuring out exactly what your daughter's rights are, and exactly when she has the right to refuse handing the child over. If his parenting is bad enough (according to the guidelines in your state), they may even help her to fight him for full custody.

 

For example, I'm pretty certain in most states it is fine to refuse to hand a child over if there's not a proper car seat. Most hospitals won't even let a baby go home with parents if there's not a car seat in place.

 

Also, I would talk to *EVERYONE* I knew with any sort of legal connection and try and find a better attorney. A great attorney will help you suss out the difference between annoyances and things that will help your daughter to get custody.

Edited by Katy
to clarify my reasoning
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Who cares what the grandparents want if they have no rights in this? Make the deliquent dad step up to the plate and he will fail at it.

 

I think you need to have a serious sit down with your lawyer on this.

 

:iagree: Especially with their ridiculous "watch baby hit mommy" behavior. So sorry you're dealing with this. I'm glad baby is with you and your daughter most of the time.

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Based on what you just added, I guess I would be looking at getting a second consult from another attorney and focus on the smoking around baby and carseat issues. Maybe you can get supervised visits? Maybe the clause can be removed if it can be shown that grandparents are not following safety protocol?

 

:iagree:

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I see a lot of folks suggesting that she not send supplies. I disagree.

 

Your daughter is never going to regret doing all she can to be sure her little one is cared for. I would not trust that family to provide for her.

 

Especially since she is dealing with idiots, she should bring enough clothing, enough diapers, and enough decent food for the baby. She won't regret it.

 

What a terrible situation. :grouphug:

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I see a lot of folks suggesting that she not send supplies. I disagree.

 

Your daughter is never going to regret doing all she can to be sure her little one is cared for. I would not trust that family to provide for her.

 

Especially since she is dealing with idiots, she should bring enough clothing, enough diapers, and enough decent food for the baby. She won't regret it.

 

What a terrible situation. :grouphug:

 

I agree with this.

 

And to file to get every. single. penny that she can from the dad....it will make him step or step away.

 

And to get a new consult with attorney about stopping gps from taking the dad's visits every time.

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I see a lot of folks suggesting that she not send supplies. I disagree.

 

Your daughter is never going to regret doing all she can to be sure her little one is cared for. I would not trust that family to provide for her.

 

Especially since she is dealing with idiots, she should bring enough clothing, enough diapers, and enough decent food for the baby. She won't regret it.

 

What a terrible situation. :grouphug:

I agree. I would also document every item sent. i would put it in a report. dad is not providing. that s neglect

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Another suggestion would be to talk to dgd's pediatrician and see if he would be willing to write a letter stating that she cannot be around cigarette smoke, or be in a house where smoking has occurred for health reasons. I had to do that with ds when he was a baby and it ended up with everyone else involved showing their true colors.

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:grouphug: This sounds so tough. You daughter is blessed to have your support!

 

Just a couple of thoughts. Fight "fire with fire" by setting boundaries and documenting. Polite, but firm. Stick with the court agreement; do not make changes just to be nice.

 

I would not stop sending supplies. You do not want the father's family to be able to accuse you (meaning your daughter, your family) of not providing for dgd. Also, send supplies so that you know she will get fed and changed. But I would only send the basics, and just what is needed for the visit. Get a couple of basic outfits (something your daughter doesn't love!), and designate those as "visit outfits". If they get stained, burned, lost, whatever, it won't be a great disappointment. Same with coat, shoes, etc. Send a basic diaper bag (again, I'd have a specific small bag just for visits), and just put in there exactly what is needed: a few diapers, food, etc. Baby has what is needed, but they're not getting nice things that can be ruined.

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Why is he allowed to see the baby at all if he is court-appointed to pay child support but hasn't? Maybe this is a dumb question. I don't know much about those laws but if it's not required that she allow him to see the baby and he and his family have been jerks, I'd document and not allow visitation if I could.

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Why is he allowed to see the baby at all if he is court-appointed to pay child support but hasn't? Maybe this is a dumb question. I don't know much about those laws but if it's not required that she allow him to see the baby and he and his family have been jerks, I'd document and not allow visitation if I could.

 

Visitation and child support are seperate issues. You can never withhold one because you haven't received the other.

 

It sounds like visitation rights have been established but he is letting his parents take his visitation.

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:grouphug: This sounds so tough. You daughter is blessed to have your support!

 

Just a couple of thoughts. Fight "fire with fire" by setting boundaries and documenting. Polite, but firm. Stick with the court agreement; do not make changes just to be nice.

 

I would not stop sending supplies. You do not want the father's family to be able to accuse you (meaning your daughter, your family) of not providing for dgd. Also, send supplies so that you know she will get fed and changed. But I would only send the basics, and just what is needed for the visit. Get a couple of basic outfits (something your daughter doesn't love!), and designate those as "visit outfits". If they get stained, burned, lost, whatever, it won't be a great disappointment. Same with coat, shoes, etc. Send a basic diaper bag (again, I'd have a specific small bag just for visits), and just put in there exactly what is needed: a few diapers, food, etc. Baby has what is needed, but they're not getting nice things that can be ruined.

But isn't the reverse true? That if he refuses to supply what the child needs, he's not meeting his responsibilies?

 

Again, he's supposed to be parenting, not babysitting.

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I would follow the court order exactly. I would only give the baby to the father. I would get child support. I would not send things for the baby. I would not negotiate a different schedule. Maybe in the future things can change but right now, with what you described, I would just follow the court order exactly. That way everyone knows what is expected and there doesn't have to be any negotiating.

:iagree:Right now she is giving them all the power over both her and the baby. If the court order says the dad can have visitation, the dad needs to pick up the baby. I don't see why your dd thinks she is obligated to drop off her child at the grandparent's house.

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Based on what you just added, I guess I would be looking at getting a second consult from another attorney and focus on the smoking around baby and carseat issues. Maybe you can get supervised visits? Maybe the clause can be removed if it can be shown that grandparents are not following safety protocol?

 

:iagree:

 

I probably would approach this differently because my dad was the chief of police in my town when I was a kid and because I was a mandatory reporter for years, so I'm really not afraid of the system... Here's what I would do...

 

I would have her take the baby as much as possible, agreement or not, and document every single time he violated the agreement. If he gets out of parenting enough, he might decide he's no longer interested.

 

I was walk into the CPS office and ask to speak with someone. You're concerned about neglect and potentially abuse and you want some guidance on where *exactly* the line is in your state. As long as you approach it with the "Can you tell me where the line is," approach, and as long as you luck into someone who's not in a terrible mood, chances are they will be very helpful figuring out exactly what your daughter's rights are, and exactly when she has the right to refuse handing the child over. If his parenting is bad enough (according to the guidelines in your state), they may even help her to fight him for full custody.

 

For example, I'm pretty certain in most states it is fine to refuse to hand a child over if there's not a proper car seat. Most hospitals won't even let a baby go home with parents if there's not a car seat in place.

 

Also, I would talk to *EVERYONE* I knew with any sort of legal connection and try and find a better attorney. A great attorney will help you suss out the difference between annoyances and things that will help your daughter to get custody.

 

:iagree:

 

Another suggestion would be to talk to dgd's pediatrician and see if he would be willing to write a letter stating that she cannot be around cigarette smoke, or be in a house where smoking has occurred for health reasons. I had to do that with ds when he was a baby and it ended up with everyone else involved showing their true colors.

 

:iagree:

 

 

:iagree:Right now she is giving them all the power over both her and the baby. If the court order says the dad can have visitation, the dad needs to pick up the baby. I don't see why your dd thinks she is obligated to drop off her child at the grandparent's house.

 

:iagree:

 

 

I'm agreeing with everyone tonight.

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Thanks for the discussion and the advice. I appreciate everyone's contributions. I apologize for not commenting on each post but I did read them all and have been mulling over what everyone has said.

 

DD and I will be having a conversation tonight after the baby goes to bed. I hope to come up with a plan that will at least help us feel better about what is happening.

 

Here is a :grouphug: for all of you. Thanks again.

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But isn't the reverse true? That if he refuses to supply what the child needs, he's not meeting his responsibilies?

 

Again, he's supposed to be parenting, not babysitting.

 

Yes, that's true, but in that situation, the baby loses. The goal is to make sure the baby is provided for and leave no opening for accusations from the father or his family. If everything is documented, his refusal/inability to parent will become evident over time.

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Yes, that's true, but in that situation, the baby loses. The goal is to make sure the baby is provided for and leave no opening for accusations from the father or his family. If everything is documented, his refusal/inability to parent will become evident over time.

Or, he'd refuse visitation if he was required to supply everything.

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In situations like this, the best advice is have a good attorney and ask the attorney how to handle it. If you don't think the attorney can be trusted, get another one. The attorney will know (and again, if s/he doesn't get another) about whether or not to send supplies, etc, etc.

 

I agree with pp who said to ask CPS where the line is for neglect/abuse because if they are neglectful and dd doesn't report it, she becomes neglectful herself.

 

I am quite concerned about the "hit your mama" stuff. That is emotional abuse. I would definitely include that when you talk with CPS.

 

Get the durned "grandparents can pick up the child" part out of the court order. That's the attorney's job. HIS attorney put it in; why didn't hers keep it out? Now that you know what's going down, fight to get it out of there.

 

Do ask the attorney about turning over the child in a public place and do take a witness, preferably someone who would be regarded by courts as objective: a friend who is a professional of some sort, for instance.

 

Ask the attorney if videotaping is okay in your state without the other party's permission. I would videotape the exchanges, but not overtly, if the attorney okays it.

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I am quite concerned about the "hit your mama" stuff. That is emotional abuse. I would definitely include that when you talk with CPS.

 

Not picking on this particular poster since others have said the same thing, but teaching a baby to hit isn't abuse. My dh taught our 1yo to punch like his big brothers. It's cute, and all three boys love play punching each other. On it's face, teaching a kid to hit just doesn't qualify as abuse. Encouraging a kid to harm others, however, falls closer to abuse. My guess is that at the age of this baby (and since a baby's hit can't actually harm anyone), the lawyer would be shaking his head at this complaint as well. Now if the baby was 12yo and hitting her mother....

 

Get the durned "grandparents can pick up the child" part out of the court order. That's the attorney's job. HIS attorney put it in; why didn't hers keep it out? Now that you know what's going down, fight to get it out of there.

 

Yes, but....if grandparents can't pick up the baby, the mother's parents won't be able to either. The OP has already said that the maternal grandparents have found this clause to be very helpful for them. Eliminating it potentially solves one issue, but it may create another issue. The mother will have to decide if this is a battle which can be won (because it will cost money) and if it is worth the inconvenience of her parents not being able to transport the baby to and from the father's visitation.

 

These situations are so hard. I can't imagine turning my children over to others and having no influence on what happens when they are not with me. Sadly, bad parents have just as many rights as good parents. :grouphug:

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Get the durned "grandparents can pick up the child" part out of the court order. That's the attorney's job. HIS attorney put it in; why didn't hers keep it out? Now that you know what's going down, fight to get it out of there.

 

 

That would likely cause the op to not be able to pick up the grandbaby either though.....

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In situations like this, the best advice is have a good attorney and ask the attorney how to handle it. If you don't think the attorney can be trusted, get another one. The attorney will know (and again, if s/he doesn't get another) about whether or not to send supplies, etc, etc.

 

I agree with pp who said to ask CPS where the line is for neglect/abuse because if they are neglectful and dd doesn't report it, she becomes neglectful herself.

 

I am quite concerned about the "hit your mama" stuff. That is emotional abuse. I would definitely include that when you talk with CPS.

 

Get the durned "grandparents can pick up the child" part out of the court order. That's the attorney's job. HIS attorney put it in; why didn't hers keep it out? Now that you know what's going down, fight to get it out of there.

 

Do ask the attorney about turning over the child in a public place and do take a witness, preferably someone who would be regarded by courts as objective: a friend who is a professional of some sort, for instance.

 

Ask the attorney if videotaping is okay in your state without the other party's permission. I would videotape the exchanges, but not overtly, if the attorney okays it.

 

This. Good advice.

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Visitation and child support are seperate issues. You can never withhold one because you haven't received the other.

 

It sounds like visitation rights have been established but he is letting his parents take his visitation.

 

Gotcha! Thank you for responding.

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Oh, well in that case it is time for him to do more.

 

He should be the one picking up the baby. No one else.

He should be paying his share of baby's expenses. Start sending bills for half of the medical visits, medicines, insurance, etc.

 

Also start demanding that no one smoke around the baby or in the house that the baby is in. Take the father back to court on this if necessary. They won't be able to find an expert anywhere that will say it is safe for the baby to be in the house where someone is smoking. It is a health hazard. (ETA) If the Father wants to visit the baby try to get the court to say he has to get a smoke free room in a hotel or limit his visitation to times at your house so he can keep the child out of the health hazard that is the grandparents house.

 

Don't send the baby with clothing or other supplies that could be contaminated by cigarette smoke. Send the father (not the grandparents. All correspondence should go to the father only) a letter stating the above and that she will no longer purchase supplies or clothing that will be contaminated.

 

Make them want to fold up and go home.

 

I would follow the court order exactly. I would only give the baby to the father. I would get child support. I would not send things for the baby. I would not negotiate a different schedule. Maybe in the future things can change but right now, with what you described, I would just follow the court order exactly. That way everyone knows what is expected and there doesn't have to be any negotiating.

 

:iagree: Deal with father only and put it all in writing.

 

Follow the law. If the visitation is order is for the father, then the baby is only handed over to the father, period. I agree with everything in the above post.

 

Also, hand baby off to father with a witness and in a public place. There is too much he said/she said in this kind of situation. He can't say "she did this or that" if the hand off is in the McDonald's playland and there are other adults around. If he appears drunk or otherwise unsafe to take the child, call the police from the McDonald's. They are more likely to respond quickly to a public disturbance call then an "custody" dispute in a private home. She just should not hand over this child at a private residence because these people can't be trusted.

 

 

Do not agree to changes in the visitation schedule. Do not let the threat of CPS make her knees wilt. The vast majority of CPS workers I've met aren't push overs. They know the law. They know what jerks look like, sound like, and act like. They'll interview her, they'll interview him, they'll check the paperwork and discover that the grandparents were not awarded visitation, just the father and he isn't doing his part. They don't rip children away from their homes on whims and they are very partial to whatever the court ordered. Too many people allow the threat of CPS being called cripple them into not doing what is best.

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

 

Faith

 

Mostly just :grouphug: and agreed with everyone else: keep up documenting, stop playing nice, stop giving them the supplies, and stop handing the kid over to the grandparents if they don't have any rights. Your dd is obviously trying to compromise so that she can avoid conflict and hopefully smooth everything over. But it's not working. She has to toughen up and learn to be a total witch to them, unfortunately.

 

All bets off. She is under no obligation to do anything at all with anyone other than the father and should stop. And keep all interaction at public facilities. This is nuts that she has been doing this at all.

 

Another thing that I would add, just to keep the drama level down, is that if I were her, I'd act realllllly stupid when they start objecting to her following the court order to the letter.

 

"Oh, I know, it's just, well the court order says I have to."

"People say that you have to follow or the judge can put you in jail"

"but it doesn't say I should give diapers, I don't want to do anything but what it says"

 

All of this said in a sympathetic, whispy voice while she bats are doe eyes and looks slightly befuddled.:001_unsure:

 

:iagree: She started sending them to his house in what they came home in the time before. She really didn't want to, but she was going broke buying new clothes every other week. After a visitation or 2, the kids were coming home well-dressed. They had just been taking advantage of my sister by taking the kids clothes and giving her back unusable stuff. I suspect the grandparents here are doing the same. Don't send the baby with stuff. They should provide everything. Oh, and if dad can't bother to come get the baby, too bad- he doesn't get visitation that week.

 

I'm sorry y'all are going through this. I truly know how hard it is.

 

to you and dd!

 

That said, the purple part is worth reiterating. They may have used their son to get visitation for him, but they don't have any legal rights themselves. So, no more handing off to the grandparents. End.that.right.now! They have NO legal standing. The dad must follow the court order and the visitation schedule. She is under no obligation to accomodate them. For that matter, she doesn't even have to take phone calls from them. Either the dodo head will come around and start following the court order and take initiative, or he won't. If he doesn't, she only need to keep documenting. In a couple of years, all of those no-shows could add up to his having visitation revoked.

 

But, the grandparents...she does not have to put up with them.

 

All exchanges with the father should be in public and she should have a witness with her.

 

 

 

Faith

 

I agree with this.

 

And to file to get every. single. penny that she can from the dad....it will make him step or step away.

 

And to get a new consult with attorney about stopping gps from taking the dad's visits every time.

 

I have been through a simialr situation.

 

Baby goes in one outfit, clean diaper. Buy one that can be used just for this purpose. Take pictures of Baby before leaving and upon return. Do not be flexiable AT ALL! She is going to be dealing with these people a long time. They are to provide for everything when child is in their care. If car seat is improperly installed, Baby does not go until seat is corrected. Call the Police to do a Civil Stand-by from now on or do exchange in a public place so it does not become a 'she says- he says'. Outside impartial wittnesses carry more weight. Anyone considered supervised visitation?

 

And why do the other grandparents have legal visitation rights? I have never heard of something so ridiculous. If it is Father's visits, then Father visits, not his parents. She needs to not be nice about that. If the papers are worded that it is Father's visits then she is under NO legal obligation for the other grandparents to have the child. She needs to be firm about that and stop this. She can just say "I am following the court orders. This will no longer be happening." This needs to be sent certified mail. Put everything in writing. It is scary but she has got to stand up for herself and her Baby. Now there is nothing she can do if Father picks up Baby and drops her off but HE must be the one doing the pick up/drop off or no visits are required. That has got to stop ASAP. These people are using your dd like a door mat.

 

There are legal things that can be done to enforce child support and other financial orders. Call your lawyer to get the ball rolling ASAP. Here, they will throw the guy in jail if he doesn't pay, garnish his wages automatically, claim his tax returns, charge interest on all back amounts until it is paid in full. Texas doesn't mess around.

 

 

I just saw this, DA. I am commenting now -- I agree with everything I copied above.

 

And, this is what I would do: screw the cost, and I mean it.

 

GET THE BIGGEST FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY SHARK YOU CAN FIND!!! Get rid of that inane 'anyone can pick up baby if father is busy' clause. THAT is nonsense. If dd is the victim of anything here, she is the victim of an attorney perhaps neglecting to tellher THAT clause was not in her best interest or the baby's.

 

LAWYER UP!!!!! Spend the money now and save yourself alot of momney and heartache later on. Think of it as the grandparents being a cancer -- you can cut them out a little at a time every year or so, or freaking get rid of them once and for all. They are bullying your dd -- stop it now. And you dd is young and has no idea how to traverse these waters.......get mama bear big time, get a lawyer with claws.

 

Oh, and if that failed, I would find out of state family and dd and baby would be living with them and going to school there. And, yes that can be done.

 

delete this after you have read it.:grouphug: I bolded and put in red and black what your dd has to keep in mind -- she is under no obligation legally (except for that stupid clause) to accomodate these people. Get rid of that clause -- hit the father where it hurts - in the wallet -- as far as she is concerned, in a state that doesn't recognize grandparent rights, they don't exist.

Edited by MariannNOVA
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Personally, with that provision in the order that the grandparents or whoever can pick up and drop off, then I think your daughter is just out of luck. She can stop being flexible about days and times, she can insist on car seat inspections, and she can insist on public exchanges...but otherwise she's pretty much stuck. Bad parenting isn't illegal. And the chances of getting that provision removed from the court order are slim to none. The father would claim that it puts an undo burden on him, the court would agree (and chances are HIGH that the judge who initially put it in understands that it's really grandparents time and is OK with that), and your daughter would come through as looking petty and be less likely to get something she wants of more substance later.

 

At this point all she can do is stick to the court order and realize that her baby is going to be badly parented while she's away and THAT is outside of her ability to control or effect.

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Not picking on this particular poster since others have said the same thing, but teaching a baby to hit isn't abuse. My dh taught our 1yo to punch like his big brothers. It's cute, and all three boys love play punching each other. On it's face, teaching a kid to hit just doesn't qualify as abuse. Encouraging a kid to harm others, however, falls closer to abuse. My guess is that at the age of this baby (and since a baby's hit can't actually harm anyone), the lawyer would be shaking his head at this complaint as well. Now if the baby was 12yo and hitting her mother....

 

 

 

Yes, but....if grandparents can't pick up the baby, the mother's parents won't be able to either. The OP has already said that the maternal grandparents have found this clause to be very helpful for them. Eliminating it potentially solves one issue, but it may create another issue. The mother will have to decide if this is a battle which can be won (because it will cost money) and if it is worth the inconvenience of her parents not being able to transport the baby to and from the father's visitation.

 

These situations are so hard. I can't imagine turning my children over to others and having no influence on what happens when they are not with me. Sadly, bad parents have just as many rights as good parents. :grouphug:

 

Play-punching = people hostile to the mother teaching a baby to hit her mother? Not the same at all. Teaching the child to hit his mother in the context described most certainly does fall at least into the gray area that most mental health professionals and CPS workers would call emotional abuse of that child. It's a form of messing with the baby's head, not to mention teaching aggression.

 

I am a former children's mental health professional. I would have absolutely reported that.

 

It would never have crossed my mind to report rough-housing kind of stuff. I have 4 boys. Rough-housing, including play punching is normal. Now if your dh taught your child to hit his brothers in earnest, that's reportable. Dingbats do it all the time, encourage kids to fight, post it to You Tube, and get arrested.

 

But is IS harmful to that baby to be getting turned against her mother, even if she doesn't totally understand it yet. What CPS did with the report would depend on what else they know, community standards, etc.

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That would likely cause the op to not be able to pick up the grandbaby either though.....

 

Lesser of evils if the situation is, as OP has posted, one in which it is the GP's, not the father, who actually want the visitation. GPs have no legal rights to visitation. Fathers do. These GPs are a very negative influence. If I were the mama, I sure would rather pick my baby up every time to have a chance to get the GPs out of my dd's life.

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I just saw this, DA. I am commenting now -- I agree with everything I copied above.

 

And, this is what I would do: screw the cost, and I mean it.

 

GET THE BIGGEST FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY SHARK YOU CAN FIND!!! Get rid of that inane 'anyone can pick up baby if father is busy' clause. THAT is nonsense. If dd is the victim of anything here, she is the victim of an attorney perhaps neglecting to tellher THAT clause was not in her best interest or the baby's.

 

LAWYER UP!!!!! Spend the money now and save yourself alot of momney and heartache later on. Think of it as the grandparents being a cancer -- you can cut them out a little at a time every year or so, or freaking get rid of them once and for all. They are bullying your dd -- stop it now. And you dd is young and has no idea how to traverse these waters.......get mama bear big time, get a lawyer with claws.

.

 

:iagree: The battle for the baby's best interest was lost with that one phrase inserted into the court order, and an attorney knowing father wasn't interest in visitation but gps were should have fought that tooth and nail. Your dd is limited given that in what she can do, short of requiring safety, documenting everything, etc.

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:iagree: The battle for the baby's best interest was lost with that one phrase inserted into the court order, and an attorney knowing father wasn't interest in visitation but gps were should have fought that tooth and nail. Your dd is limited given that in what she can do, short of requiring safety, documenting everything, etc.

 

:iagree:

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:grouphug::grouphug: How did your talk with dd go?

 

We discussed all kinds of things - time management for classes, studying & work, her loneliness on campus due to being a commuter student, and, of course, the baby.

 

She wants to do whatever it takes to make sure the baby is well-cared for and loved. She also wants to let her know that her mommy is thinking of her whenever she is away and that equates to having her surrounded by 'her' things, things that are familiar. DD wants to continue sending the same things she would use at home. DD also does not want to act like them. She says she wants to set a good example for the baby; she wants to be the person she hopes the baby grows up to be. If that means letting some things go, then she will. But she wants to learn about the law and educate herself on what they can and cannot legally do.

 

 

For now, her plan is to stand tall, smile and be as pleasant as she can. She will continue to document everything. She is praying they have a change of heart. There are some other issues going on in their family that might alter how they treat DD and the baby. We are going to pray that these issues work out in DD's favor.

 

Hearing her heartfelt wishes for her DD makes me proud. She is a much better person than I could hope to be.

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We discussed all kinds of things - time management for classes, studying & work, her loneliness on campus due to being a commuter student, and, of course, the baby.

 

She wants to do whatever it takes to make sure the baby is well-cared for and loved. She also wants to let her know that her mommy is thinking of her whenever she is away and that equates to having her surrounded by 'her' things, things that are familiar. DD wants to continue sending the same things she would use at home. DD also does not want to act like them. She says she wants to set a good example for the baby; she wants to be the person she hopes the baby grows up to be. If that means letting some things go, then she will. But she wants to learn about the law and educate herself on what they can and cannot legally do.

 

 

For now, her plan is to stand tall, smile and be as pleasant as she can. She will continue to document everything. She is praying they have a change of heart. There are some other issues going on in their family that might alter how they treat DD and the baby. We are going to pray that these issues work out in DD's favor.

 

Hearing her heartfelt wishes for her DD makes me proud. She is a much better person than I could hope to be.

 

This was a very heart warming update. :grouphug: to you both.

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We discussed all kinds of things - time management for classes, studying & work, her loneliness on campus due to being a commuter student, and, of course, the baby.

 

She wants to do whatever it takes to make sure the baby is well-cared for and loved. She also wants to let her know that her mommy is thinking of her whenever she is away and that equates to having her surrounded by 'her' things, things that are familiar. DD wants to continue sending the same things she would use at home. DD also does not want to act like them. She says she wants to set a good example for the baby; she wants to be the person she hopes the baby grows up to be. If that means letting some things go, then she will. But she wants to learn about the law and educate herself on what they can and cannot legally do.

 

 

For now, her plan is to stand tall, smile and be as pleasant as she can. She will continue to document everything. She is praying they have a change of heart. There are some other issues going on in their family that might alter how they treat DD and the baby. We are going to pray that these issues work out in DD's favor.

 

Hearing her heartfelt wishes for her DD makes me proud. She is a much better person than I could hope to be.

 

She sounds like a very good mom.

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