Kaleidoscope Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Or perhaps forgiving is the wrong word. Too quick to rationalize? Too quick to excuse? Too quick to forget? Whatever it's called it's when you are so quick to understand, explain away, and excuse a persons actions that you find yourself bending over backwards accommodating them and changing who you are so the issue doesn't come up any more. How does one change that? I seem to have an issue with this. It's nice in some ways... but I'm realizing it can create real problems too. I have real problems now because of it. Of course... if you give me about 24 hours I may forget I have problems because I will have rationalized it all and somehow adjusted my thinking to the point that it will all be okay once again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Yep. I'd go so far as to say, "heck yeah." The process, more or less: 1. You change it by realising that the person you are dealing with really isn't being very nice to you. 2. Then you move to realising you don't like them very much. 3. Then you find a way for them not to matter. Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I think that the problem might not be with the gracious rationalization (because we are always free to think well of people) but with the 'therefore I should' thoughts that follow up your rationalization. You can say, "He/she doesn't mean any harm." -- without saying, "Therefore I should let him/her continue without consiquences." or "Therefore it is my job to compensate for his/her mistakes." or "Therefore I should act like it isn't going to happen this way again." Does that make sense as a vague sort of an answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) Or perhaps forgiving is the wrong word. Too quick to rationalize? Too quick to excuse? Too quick to forget? Whatever it's called it's when you are so quick to understand, explain away, and excuse a persons actions that you find yourself bending over backwards accommodating them and changing who you are so the issue doesn't come up any more. How does one change that? I seem to have an issue with this. YES. I have often found that, whenever I'm too quick to excuse someone's poor behavior, the result has usually been that the Person in Question has not changed a bit, and more poor behavior followed. I don't think forgiveness is a bad thing when someone is genuinely sorry, but I do think it's a bad idea to excuse a person who isn't at all sorry, or who only pretends to be sorry and then repeats the same actions over and over again. I think it can also be helpful to put the shoe on the other foot, and ask yourself how the other person would react if you'd done the bad thing to them. Would that person forgive you? Edited October 17, 2012 by Catwoman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleidoscope Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) I think that the problem might not be with the gracious rationalization (because we are always free to think well of people) but with the 'therefore I should' thoughts that follow up your rationalization. You can say, "He/she doesn't mean any harm." -- without saying, "Therefore I should let him/her continue without consiquences." or "Therefore it is my job to compensate for his/her mistakes." or "Therefore I should act like it isn't going to happen this way again." Does that make sense as a vague sort of an answer? Yes that makes sense. I'm just not sure how to begin to detach the therefore I should logic from my normal reactions. It feels like its who I am. Gee I always hoped I'd grow up and be a door mat for anyone and everyone who needs to vent their frustrations. Not! And yet I almost feel so defined by it I don't know how I should feel. Edited October 17, 2012 by Kaleidoscope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blakereese Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 YES. Exactly what I was going to say. :lol: I am struggling with this right now, so I don't have a lot of advice, but I do understand exactly what you are saying. As I get older, I am realizing that I am not just being "too nice", but I am more of a doormat. I have some friendships that may have to end, I guess. :( Not that they are extremely fulfilling, obviously. :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWOB Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Oh goodness YES! Yes, as Christians (if you are a Christian) we should forgive people as Christ commanded us to do. However, I have not read anything by Christ that says we have to be stupid about it. There is a HUGE difference between forgiving someone for their human condition, and continually going back for more abuse. Personally, the thought of going back for more crud makes me want to lose my Jesus. I have very close relatives who are in constant need of forgiveness, yet I refuse to engage with them because they are consistently abusive. Big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleidoscope Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 YES. I have often found that, whenever I'm too quick to excuse someone's poor behavior, the result has usually been that the Person in Question has not changed a bit, and more poor behavior followed. I don't think forgiveness is a bad thing when someone is genuinely sorry, but I do think it's a bad idea to excuse a person who isn't at all sorry, or who only pretends to be sorry and then repeats the same actions over and over again. I think it can also be helpful to put the shoe on the other foot, and ask yourself how the other person would react if you'd done the bad thing to them. Would that person forgive you? That makes total sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I think that the problem might not be with the gracious rationalization (because we are always free to think well of people) but with the 'therefore I should' thoughts that follow up your rationalization. You can say, "He/she doesn't mean any harm." -- without saying, "Therefore I should let him/her continue without consiquences." or "Therefore it is my job to compensate for his/her mistakes." or "Therefore I should act like it isn't going to happen this way again." Does that make sense as a vague sort of an answer? :iagree: This is right on. And I would also suggest just slowing down. You may feel pressure in the moment, but you don't have to answer or respond right away. That way I can make a more reasoned response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Exactly what I was going to say. :lol: I am struggling with this right now, so I don't have a lot of advice, but I do understand exactly what you are saying. As I get older, I am realizing that I am not just being "too nice", but I am more of a doormat. I have some friendships that may have to end, I guess. :( Not that they are extremely fulfilling, obviously. :glare: I think that's such an important point. It's great to be a kind and forgiving person, when the people around you are deserving of the great treatment you give them, but if the people around you never reciprocate and aren't there when you need them and you still do wonderful things for them and forgive them and rationalize the bad things they do, well... you're a doormat. Nice = Good Doormat = Bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Nice = Good Doormat = Bad Love this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleidoscope Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Maybe I'm just a nice doormat?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 YES! I am in lots of counseling about this right now. Have realized 2 long time "friends" were not friends after all, and a family member who was really using me as her punching bag. It was hard, but I got rid of the "friends" one at a time. It was so worth it. My life is more peaceful now. I have more time for the friends that I enjoy and don't just suck up all of my time and energy. Ask yourself, are you being a forgiving person, or a people pleaser? When you are trying to make everyone else happy, do you change what you and your family (spouse and kids) would be most happy doing? If so, then it is a problem. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:Hard work, but well worth it. We are all so much happier now that mom is growing a backbone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Maybe I'm just a nice doormat?? :D :D :D :D I think the "nice" part is what's getting you into trouble! :tongue_smilie: There truly is such a thing as being "too nice," and the biggest problem with it is that you are the person who always ends up getting hurt when others take advantage of you or treat you unkindly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 One more thought, it helps to define "nice." Nice is often just conflict avoidance, but you probably aren't doing them any favors in terms of real personal growth by letting them think that their behavior is okay. It's actually a sign of caring and respect for that other person to let them see and hear the truth. I found that what I thought was nice was actually have been mistaken for disrespect ("you don't think I'm strong enough to handle the truth?") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 One more thought, it helps to define "nice." Nice is often just conflict avoidance, but you probably aren't doing them any favors in terms of real personal growth by letting them think that their behavior is okay. It's actually a sign of caring and respect for that other person to let them see and hear the truth. I found that what I thought was nice was actually have been mistaken for disrespect ("you don't think I'm strong enough to handle the truth?") That's true. Either that, or they think you're a complete and total wimp, which isn't exactly a good thing, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) Gee I always hoped I'd grow up and be a door mat for anyone and everyone who needs to vent their frustrations. Not! And yet I almost feel so defined by it I don't know how I should feel. Annoyed. Practice being annoyed that someone would be so rude as to impose on you in that way. Not that irritation is a fun emotion, but it's a necessary one. Or surprised at their impertinence. Impertinence is a good word. I should use it more often... Rosie Edited October 17, 2012 by Rosie_0801 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I don't think forgiveness and boundary setting should be mutually exclusive. You can genuinely forgive a person for harm they have done to you, but still take all necessary steps to avoid further abuse, by enforcing your boundaries without judging the other person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassy Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Yep. I'd go so far as to say, "heck yeah." The process, more or less: 1. You change it by realising that the person you are dealing with really isn't being very nice to you. 2. Then you move to realising you don't like them very much. 3. Then you find a way for them not to matter. Annoyed. Practice being annoyed that someone would be so rude as to impose on you in that way. Not that irritation is a fun emotion, but it's a necessary one. Or surprised at their impertinence. Impertinence is a good word. I should use it more often... I love it :001_smile:. Spot on and totally practical. Will you be my therapist, Rosie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) I love it :001_smile:. Spot on and totally practical. Will you be my therapist, Rosie? Not sure I have much to offer. Most of my advice comes down to "a pox on 'em." :p Edited October 17, 2012 by Rosie_0801 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassy Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Not sure I have much to offer. Most of my advice comes down to "a pox on 'em." :p :lol: Works for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 :grouphug: I am dealing with the fall-out from being like this with my family or not dealing with it as they are currently having nothing to do with my immediate family because I finally stood up for us with them and called them on the way they have been treating us all. I am spending a lot of time crying and trying to get used to this "new normal" in our lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisbeth Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 It is a pandemic. Our society as a whole has gotten too easy. In the name of toleration, a lot of plain badness is rationalized away. No one is ever just BAD...it must be society's fault. People are being trained to be doormats, because, we mustn't judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) It might help you to know that there is a vast difference between "excusing" an action/person (it's not that bad, given its context, it honestly seems ok -- rationalization) and forgiving an action/person. To forgive is a very strong statement that what happened (a) was morally wrong, (b) remains morally wrong in spite of context, and © was a wrong done specifically to/against you. If you have ever been told, "I forgive you." -- when you didn't think you had actually wronged someone, you know that these implicit messages of forgiveness are real. When you forgive someone, you are calling them a sinner, you are just telling them what you are doing about their sin against you. So, do forgive when it's approprate, and also excuse when that's actually the truth of the situation. Honestly, most situations don't call for either response. Mostly, just cope. Think charitable thoughts, but carry on with your life according to what seems wise -- not under the emotional manipulation of 'should'. Edited October 17, 2012 by bolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Forgiveness does not = reconciliation. I've 'forgiven' my parents for their cruelties. I'm not angry w/them, I don't hate them, I don't harbour ill towards them. I've let it go, in terms of emotional energy. However, I will never again have anything to do w/them if I can help it (if they show up on my doorstep, or somehow ambush me, I'll deal w/it, but I'm talking me willingly dealing w/them). They're toxic. They're incapable of a healthy relationship. That way lies madness. So, I've forgiven. For my sake. To let go of the anger, the hatred, the emotional drain. But I'll never, ever have them in my life, or my children's lives again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleidoscope Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Forgiveness does not = reconciliation. I've 'forgiven' my parents for their cruelties. I'm not angry w/them, I don't hate them, I don't harbour ill towards them. I've let it go, in terms of emotional energy. However, I will never again have anything to do w/them if I can help it (if they show up on my doorstep, or somehow ambush me, I'll deal w/it, but I'm talking me willingly dealing w/them). They're toxic. They're incapable of a healthy relationship. That way lies madness. So, I've forgiven. For my sake. To let go of the anger, the hatred, the emotional drain. But I'll never, ever have them in my life, or my children's lives again. I can understand being in that spot. I don't know what I'd do if my mother,who was mentally ill and abusive, was alive still. I'd probably still be taking care of her. I can't imagine I would have walked away though I totally understand why a person would. I suspect it is my relationship with her that's turned me into what I am now. To survive I had to ignore, excuse, and forgive everything she did. I realized at 6 that she wasn't ok. Now that response is so automatic the only person I seem to be able to be angry with is myself. A person can cuss me out and tell me the world is better off without me and 15 minutes later I'm functioning and interacting with that and person like it never happened. And this is a person very close to me. If that was by a random person or even aquaintance I would think it was good it didn't effect me. Seems hard to draw boundaries when I don't feel anything though. I'm trying to justify it based on facts but it seems like a lot of work. Just ignoring it all might be easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 A person can cuss me out and tell me the world is better off without me and 15 minutes later I'm functioning and interacting with that and person like it never happened. And this is a person very close to me. If that was by a random person or even aquaintance I would think it was good it didn't effect me. Seems hard to draw boundaries when I don't feel anything though. I'm trying to justify it based on facts but it seems like a lot of work. Just ignoring it all might be easier. This is why I would recommend a counselor if you can find one. It's the feelings. Things are not sliding off my back anymore. My new emotion is anger. I have gotten mad, and that is new for me. My husband says that each time I get mad, say "no, that is not okay." set a new boundary, and THEN forgive, even if no forgiveness is asked for, that a few days later, he notices I am happier. I look at this year and say, wow! I have been mad a lot. My dh agrees, but says I have also been happier than I ever have been before. I have a close family member who is one of my toxic people. I can not walk away from them, but once I put one boundary up, the next was easier, and so on. Best of luck.:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleidoscope Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 This is why I would recommend a counselor if you can find one. It's the feelings. Things are not sliding off my back anymore. My new emotion is anger. I have gotten mad, and that is new for me. My husband says that each time I get mad, say "no, that is not okay." set a new boundary, and THEN forgive, even if no forgiveness is asked for, that a few days later, he notices I am happier. I look at this year and say, wow! I have been mad a lot. My dh agrees, but says I have also been happier than I ever have been before. I have a close family member who is one of my toxic people. I can not walk away from them, but once I put one boundary up, the next was easier, and so on. Best of luck.:grouphug: I just wish I could get mad at this point. I guess part of the problem is also that the main issues are people I'm not sure I can walk away from. Yes, a counselor would probably be a good idea. It's not likely to happen though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter's Moon Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I wrote this article recently. There is nothing wrong in forgiving and looking for the best in others, but if there is a pattern, boundaries need to be set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Rearch "Enabling" and work hard to understand that forgiving someone for past wrongs, doesn't mean that you need to continue putting yourself in the postition to need to forgive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Or perhaps forgiving is the wrong word. Too quick to rationalize? Too quick to excuse? Too quick to forget? Whatever it's called it's when you are so quick to understand, explain away, and excuse a persons actions that you find yourself bending over backwards accommodating them and changing who you are so the issue doesn't come up any more. How does one change that? I seem to have an issue with this. It's nice in some ways... but I'm realizing it can create real problems too. I have real problems now because of it. Of course... if you give me about 24 hours I may forget I have problems because I will have rationalized it all and somehow adjusted my thinking to the point that it will all be okay once again. No, you cannot be "too forgiving". You should forgive everyone everything, for your own health and sanity. However, if by "too forgiving" you mean can you keep putting yourself in the same scenarios again, instead of drawing some boundaries, while expecting a different result, then yes, you can do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Yep. I'd go so far as to say, "heck yeah." The process, more or less: 1. You change it by realising that the person you are dealing with really isn't being very nice to you. 2. Then you move to realising you don't like them very much. 3. Then you find a way for them not to matter. Rosie Yes, this happens. But you should still forgive the person in order to be able to move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 YES. I have often found that, whenever I'm too quick to excuse someone's poor behavior, the result has usually been that the Person in Question has not changed a bit, and more poor behavior followed. I don't think forgiveness is a bad thing when someone is genuinely sorry, but I do think it's a bad idea to excuse a person who isn't at all sorry, or who only pretends to be sorry and then repeats the same actions over and over again. I think it can also be helpful to put the shoe on the other foot, and ask yourself how the other person would react if you'd done the bad thing to them. Would that person forgive you? Yes, this. I like you, Catwoman. You always make sense. Too bad you have cats...;) (kidding- I'm allergic to cats) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 There is a big difference between giving grace and being a doormat. Unfortunately for those who encounter me IRL I have a problem with extending grace. :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 As I get older, I am realizing that I am not just being "too nice", but I am more of a doormat. I have some friendships that may have to end, I guess. :( Not that they are extremely fulfilling, obviously. We need not only a support group for Moms of Teens, to ensure their survival (both the Moms and the teens), but we need a place to make friends in middle age. Not sure how old you are, but you sparked this idea. I think I am a powerful, outspoken person, but I cave in the presence of more powerful, outspoken personalities and then begin to question myself. Then I realize that my first instincts were always correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 yes. it's called being a doormat. (sore subject due to dealings with a family member.) the first step to not being a doormat is to recognize there are appropriate boundaries, and what they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 My life was changed for the better with just a few words from a smart friend: Feeling bad is not the same as feeling responsible. You can feel bad for the situation someone is in, without feeling responsible for changing it. You can feel bad that you aren't doing what someone wants you to do, without feeling responsible for doing it. You can feel bad that someone doesn't feel loved because you make your own decisions, without feeling responsible for changing those decisions. Feeling bad might mean a fleeting sympathy or a genuine regret that things can't be different, but it stops well short of agonizing guilt or nerve-wracking indecision. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Originally Posted by Kaleidoscope A person can cuss me out and tell me the world is better off without me and 15 minutes later I'm functioning and interacting with that and person like it never happened. And this is a person very close to me. If that was by a random person or even aquaintance I would think it was good it didn't effect me. Seems hard to draw boundaries when I don't feel anything though. I'm trying to justify it based on facts but it seems like a lot of work. Just ignoring it all might be easier. This is why I would recommend a counselor if you can find one. It's the feelings. :iagree::iagree: please look into counseling. a good councilor will be able to help you recognize boundaris. It's not just negative emotions and responses that get shut down. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleidoscope Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) My life was changed for the better with just a few words from a smart friend: Feeling bad is not the same as feeling responsible. You can feel bad for the situation someone is in, without feeling responsible for changing it. You can feel bad that you aren't doing what someone wants you to do, without feeling responsible for doing it. You can feel bad that someone doesn't feel loved because you make your own decisions, without feeling responsible for changing those decisions. Feeling bad might mean a fleeting sympathy or a genuine regret that things can't be different, but it stops well short of agonizing guilt or nerve-wracking indecision. :001_smile: I don't think I feel responsible for anything. I think I'm just trying to make life livable. If I can make the pain disappear then I can move on and have some sort of happiness. It actually does work I just doubt it's healthy in the long run. Edited October 18, 2012 by Kaleidoscope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lailasmum Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I am a recovering doormat. Life is going much better since I learnt to protect myself and my family with boundaries. I've also learnt to get and angry and express myself without fear of loosing friends. A lot of people who I thought were friends were just people I was being used by. I seemed to have to constantly get over something they had done in order to continue that relationship. I stopped and it's very freeing and confidence building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebra Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 My life was changed for the better with just a few words from a smart friend: Feeling bad is not the same as feeling responsible. You can feel bad for the situation someone is in, without feeling responsible for changing it. You can feel bad that you aren't doing what someone wants you to do, without feeling responsible for doing it. You can feel bad that someone doesn't feel loved because you make your own decisions, without feeling responsible for changing those decisions. Feeling bad might mean a fleeting sympathy or a genuine regret that things can't be different, but it stops well short of agonizing guilt or nerve-wracking indecision. :001_smile: I REALLY like this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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