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Lecturing Science rather than having child simply read text


Halcyon
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Okay, so older read a chapter of CPO last week and seemingly didn't retain much. This isnt the fault of the text, I don't think. I think that he finds reading denser non-fiction text is just harder for him still. I have no doubt it will come, eventually. Anyway, I ended up teaching a lecture from the text (covering the same material), using a white board to "outline" the text, show subheadings etc so he would understand things like "Oh, so the four groups of carbon based compounds that compose living things are lipids, carbohydrates, proteins, and nucleic acids. And two TYPES of carbohydrates are...." and so on. It makes it more clear to him. The question is, should he be able to do this on his own right now? Read the text and be able to outline and understand the info and RETAIN it? I feel like he really needs notes to do that, and when I lecture, it seems easier for him to take notes.

 

WOuld appreciate insight, thanks!

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We used CPO Earth and Space last year. I would have my son read a sub-chapter and then I would use the review questions at the end as an guide for our discussion. I would ask him the questions and he could look through the chapter to find the answer.

 

I thought of the questions as as being similar to the questions in SOTW AG. They created a framework for a guided discussion of the chapter.

 

He finished the year being much better at reading and extracting information.

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thanks redsquirrel. Right now, when he does the end of chapter and review question, he often needs to look through the chapter, and doesnt seem to really remember even the generalities of what is being asked. Not always, but sometimes, especially with the denser chapters. I am wondering if i should have him read BEFORE i lecture, or if I shoould lecture first and then have him read (assuming I continue with this apprroach, which is certainly more time consuming but definitely worth it if it works.)

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It's my first year, so I'm speaking from my experience as a student. In high school and college, it was expected that the chapter was read prior to the lecture so we had some background knowledge and more educated questions were asked. I know he's only 10, though, so it really depends on if he finds it easier to read the book before or after you teach the info to him.

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It's my first year, so I'm speaking from my experience as a student. In high school and college, it was expected that the chapter was read prior to the lecture so we had some background knowledge and more educated questions were asked. I know he's only 10, though, so it really depends on if he finds it easier to read the book before or after you teach the info to him.

 

thanks for your input :)

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It's hard for me to link while i'm on the phone. Google "textmapping".

 

To teach a student how to read a chapter you photocopy the chapter and tape it into a scroll. Then you mark it up with different colors that each signify different things like subtitles and vocabulary.

 

The student will always be able to fall back on textmapping when studying a difficult chapter, but you will find the student adapting the tool to even unmarked text.

 

Textmapping works great on vintage classical language printouts. We used textmapping the most on Machen's first edition Ancient Greek text. Green was all the information about accents. I think pink was vocabulary, and blue grammar. It's hard to remember.

 

I used the technique with a friend attending college. After just one chapter, she was reading all her texts with more comprehension.

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It's hard for me to link while i'm on the phone. Google "textmapping".

 

To teach a student how to read a chapter you photocopy the chapter and tape it into a scroll. Then you mark it up with different colors that each signify different things like subtitles and vocabulary.

 

The student will always be able to fall back on textmapping when studying a difficult chapter, but you will find the student adapting the tool to even unmarked text.

 

Textmapping works great on vintage classical language printouts. We used textmapping the most on Machen's first edition Ancient Greek text. Green was all the information about accents. I think pink was vocabulary, and blue grammar. It's hard to remember.

 

I used the technique with a friend attending college. After just one chapter, she was reading all her texts with more comprehension.

 

thank you for reminding me about this! I had forgotten about it, but remember talking about it on these boards a year or two ago. Thanks!

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The question is, should he be able to do this on his own right now? Read the text and be able to outline and understand the info and RETAIN it? I feel like he really needs notes to do that, and when I lecture, it seems easier for him to take notes.

I don't think "should" is a meaningful term here — it's like asking whether your child "should" be able to read by 5, or be fully potty trained by 2, or anything else that kids do where there is a large range of "normal."

 

If he's not able to do this on his own, then what you're doing is perfect: you are modeling how to break the chapter down into logical sections and focus on the key concepts. I'd continue to do this for him before he reads the text, so he has that model in his head as he reads, then gradually over time you can step him through the process of doing it himself. Whether that takes 6 months or 2 years is pretty irrelevant — the point is to learn the skill well and apply it effectively.

 

BTW, have you looked at a standard school text recently? They typically highlight all the vocabulary words, put little "key" symbols or some other clue next to the key points, have bulleted lists of "learning objectives" in sidebars, etc., etc. etc. Many texts even have a "student study guide" that includes pre-written notes with a few fill-in-the-blank spots. So clearly there are many HS students who still haven't learned to do this on their own!

 

Jackie

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Okay, so older read a chapter of CPO last week and seemingly didn't retain much. This isnt the fault of the text, I don't think. I think that he finds reading denser non-fiction text is just harder for him still. I have no doubt it will come, eventually. Anyway, I ended up teaching a lecture from the text (covering the same material), using a white board to "outline" the text, show subheadings etc so he would understand things like "Oh, so the four groups of carbon based compounds that compose living things are lipids, carbohydrates, proteins, and nucleic acids. And two TYPES of carbohydrates are...." and so on. It makes it more clear to him. The question is, should he be able to do this on his own right now? Read the text and be able to outline and understand the info and RETAIN it? I feel like he really needs notes to do that, and when I lecture, it seems easier for him to take notes.

 

WOuld appreciate insight, thanks!

 

I don't know if this is what you want to hear, but my suggestion is to give both of yourselves a break. The middle school years are really the glory years for science exploration and play. There will be several years for dense texts, note-taking and review questions in the future, just please don't make it now. What you are asking from your son at ten involves a fairly sophisticated set of skills, which is fine, as long as you have already done the foundational work and he has adapted to them easily.

 

At this stage, I would work on the skills individually and at an appropriate level without asking your student to synthesize them. My youngest learned to outline at the end of fourth grade and in fifth grade, but we generally confined his practice to history until the skill seemed solid and we could transfer it to other subjects like science.

 

I am not saying this well, but my son blazed through our state's 8th grade science test in 7th grade simply by doing a bit of science four days a week and by exploring, experimenting, and asking lots of questions. My first priority was to instill a love of science. Your son is so young; adapt CPO to where he is now, not where you think he should be and have fun. Lots of fun. Science with boys is just a mind-blowing experience and I am so grateful to have had the time with my guys.

 

I still have my CPO text and can probably give you some specific ideas, but if you want some great science advice, EightFilltheHeart was our inspiration for those years. I will see if I can find some of those threads or maybe she will chime in.

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My first priority was to instill a love of science. Your son is so young; adapt CPO to where he is now, not where you think he should be and have fun. Lots of fun. Science with boys is just a mind-blowing experience and I am so grateful to have had the time with my guys.

:iagree: This is what we do, too.

 

Jackie

Edited by Corraleno
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I typed up several replies and then deleted them w/o posting b/c the question of "should they be able to" is not the question I can even see through to answering b/c the snippet overwhelmed me. (so Lisa, I blame you for my hitting submit. :tongue_smilie: )

 

It brought to mind a quote from The Tarantula Scientist:

 

.....When Sam was growing up, he couldn't imagine that science could be this exciting!

 

"I had no idea what it meant to be a scientist or a biologist," Sam admits. "I think my impression was the same as most people's: that science is a body of knowledge, that science is a big book of answers." Science, to him, was about memorizing a bunch of facts--not figuring out new ways to solve mysteries and make new discoveries.

 

"Science," as he understood it, didn't interest him at all.

 

What did interest him was animals. As a little boy he kept a lizard, gerbils, mice, and a rabbit. Then followed frogs, toads, salamanders, snakes, bugs....

 

..."Animals are a whole different life form," Sam explains, "and I was drawn to things that are different...I was so curious about how they lived and what they did."

 

Reading about lipids and carbohydrates or reading about tarantulas.....well, w/my kids I know which one wouldn't require a lot of effort to peak interest and to pay attention. ;) But, the truth is that I also do not care if my non-high schoolers know about lipids or nucleic acid and the thought of approaching science w/that sort of content w/a 10 yr old just really makes me sad. So, I am still not sure I should have responded b/c science for my 10 yr olds is thrilling and intriguing and well-loved by them all by themselves.

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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The question is, should he be able to do this on his own right now? Read the text and be able to outline and understand the info and RETAIN it? I feel like he really needs notes to do that, and when I lecture, it seems easier for him to take notes.

 

My 3rd grader started taking notes from his online k12 science class this year because that is expected. It took him awhile to get a hang of taking simple notes and even now would need to go back and flesh out his notes if he is using just his notes to revise. He does not retain 100% of his science. more like above 80% consistently. I just treat it as an exercise in note taking skills.

 

I let my kid read first before I explain just because I want to see how much he can comprehend on his own.

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I typed up several replies and then deleted them w/o posting b/c the question of "should they be able to" is not the question I can even see through to answering b/c the snippet overwhelmed me. (so Lisa, I blame you for my hitting submit. :tongue_smilie: )

 

It brought to mind a quote from The Tarantula Scientist:

 

.....When Sam was growing up, he couldn't imagine that science could be this exciting!

 

"I had no idea what it meant to be a scientist or a biologist," Sam admits. "I think my impression was the same as most people's: that science is a body of knowledge, that science is a big book of answers." Science, to him, was about memorizing a bunch of facts--not figuring out new ways to solve mysteries and make new discoveries.

 

"Science," as he understood it, didn't interest him at all.

 

What did interest him was animals. As a little boy he kept a lizard, gerbils, mice, and a rabbit. Then followed frogs, toads, salamanders, snakes, bugs....

 

..."Animals are a whole different life form," Sam explains, "and I was drawn to things that are different...I was so curious about how they lived and what they did."

 

Reading about lipids and carbohydrates or reading about tarantulas.....well, w/my kids I know which one wouldn't require a lot of effort to peak interest and to pay attention. ;) But, the truth is that I also do not care if my non-high schoolers know about lipids or nucleic acid and the thought of approaching science w/that sort of content w/a 10 yr old just really makes me sad. So, I am still not sure I should have responded b/c science for my 10 yr olds is thrilling and intriguing and well-loved by them all by themselves.

 

:001_wub: to this post, and I tend to agree with swimmermom3, because we lean hard that way in science anyway.

 

As to the reading vs lecturing, I thought I would post this wonderful old thread I stumbled upon tonight. It immediately brought your question to mind, so I thought I would link it here.

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Mine are in high school, and I still do that with them. And I go to college classes, and the professor does that. :D Not for everything, but I think it's helpful for dense material that a person didn't choose to learn on his own.

 

That said, I didn't cover science in a systematic way prior to about 7th grade, so I don't know how it would work for a dc that age.

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I think science at this age should be fun like others said.

 

But, I'll just share the question that I force myself to consider every now and then. It usually helps me make changes that aren't immediately obvious when I am stuck in the middle of it.

 

How would I feel if my kid were in school and her teacher was teaching this way?

 

I usually try to envision showing up at a parent/teacher conference and having the teachers describe exactly what I've been doing. It really forces me to self-reflect, particularly on those super difficult days!!

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How would I feel if my kid were in school and her teacher was teaching this way?

 

I usually try to envision showing up at a parent/teacher conference and having the teachers describe exactly what I've been doing. It really forces me to self-reflect, particularly on those super difficult days!!

 

Hmmm... I'm not sure I completely agree with that sentiment. Teaching in a school with a group of students is going to look different than teaching at home. At home, there is going to be more independent reading, and the teacher doesn't need to lecture for 45 minutes on one topic. It would be hard to do 8's science method in a classroom situation, since it is student-led. I just don't think it would be a good fit for a school. I do think it is a good fit for homeschool though (and I use her method with my own son). So what is acceptable at home isn't necessarily acceptable in a school situation.

 

At the same time, I agree with you in some ways... I do think there needs to be interaction between teacher and student, making the education deeper via discussion. So in that respect, if my child is learning history by just reading a textbook and answering some comprehension questions in the back, yes I'd be upset if a teacher taught like that, and I'd have to look at myself and be upset with myself if I taught like that. We need to be discussing the history and digging deeper, not just answering shallow comprehension questions. I know the kid comprehends. I want him to make connections also. ;)

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I think science at this age should be fun like others said.

 

But, I'll just share the question that I force myself to consider every now and then. It usually helps me make changes that aren't immediately obvious when I am stuck in the middle of it.

 

How would I feel if my kid were in school and her teacher was teaching this way?

 

I usually try to envision showing up at a parent/teacher conference and having the teachers describe exactly what I've been doing. It really forces me to self-reflect, particularly on those super difficult days!!

 

This is what I've always aimed at in homeschooling, sort of. I want to create a "school" that I would want my kids to attend. It is really easy to criticize other people's and other school's methods and materials, but you need to be able to turn the same eye on your own "school."

 

My dd goes to a brick and mortar school this year. One of the reasons we chose the school was the science teacher. He loves science. He is enthusiastic, and he gets the kids excited about learning. He doesn't read from the book (and their book has the vocabulary highlighted, and the key ideas listed). The kids read for homework and write the vocabulary, then he talks to them, shows them, asks them questions, demonstrates, explains, and listens. The school uses Socratic dialog as one of their primary teaching tools.

 

My dd came home last week excited about the cell cycle explaining all the steps because the class had acted it out together with lots of laughter and enthusiasm. At home, I can't be Mr. Science-teacher and Ms. Math-teacher and Mr. Latin-scholar, etc., but I can help my kids to find enthusiasm for what we're studying.

 

I don't think I ever once lectured my ds or read a textbook to him, but we had hours of discussion.

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I typed up several replies and then deleted them w/o posting b/c the question of "should they be able to" is not the question I can even see through to answering b/c the snippet overwhelmed me. (so Lisa, I blame you for my hitting submit. :tongue_smilie: )

 

It brought to mind a quote from The Tarantula Scientist:

 

.....When Sam was growing up, he couldn't imagine that science could be this exciting!

 

"I had no idea what it meant to be a scientist or a biologist," Sam admits. "I think my impression was the same as most people's: that science is a body of knowledge, that science is a big book of answers." Science, to him, was about memorizing a bunch of facts--not figuring out new ways to solve mysteries and make new discoveries.

 

"Science," as he understood it, didn't interest him at all.

 

What did interest him was animals. As a little boy he kept a lizard, gerbils, mice, and a rabbit. Then followed frogs, toads, salamanders, snakes, bugs....

 

..."Animals are a whole different life form," Sam explains, "and I was drawn to things that are different...I was so curious about how they lived and what they did."

 

Reading about lipids and carbohydrates or reading about tarantulas.....well, w/my kids I know which one wouldn't require a lot of effort to peak interest and to pay attention. ;) But, the truth is that I also do not care if my non-high schoolers know about lipids or nucleic acid and the thought of approaching science w/that sort of content w/a 10 yr old just really makes me sad. So, I am still not sure I should have responded b/c science for my 10 yr olds is thrilling and intriguing and well-loved by them all by themselves.

 

I am sorry it makes you sad. My son is not sad. He is just trying to figure out how to retain it. I think covering this material, particularly as it relates to food and diet, is more than appropriate for an advanced 10 year old.

 

No need to feel sad for my child. He has a lot of fun with his science experiments, lapbooks and notebooking. It's not all torture. Some of it is even "thrilling and intriguing and well-loved". I know, shock! :tongue_smilie:

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My 3rd grader started taking notes from his online k12 science class this year because that is expected. It took him awhile to get a hang of taking simple notes and even now would need to go back and flesh out his notes if he is using just his notes to revise. He does not retain 100% of his science. more like above 80% consistently. I just treat it as an exercise in note taking skills.

 

I let my kid read first before I explain just because I want to see how much he can comprehend on his own.

 

Thanks Arcadia. We are working on note-taking skills, so this is the time to apply that work, I guess!

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As homeschooling evolves and more families come from the majority culture, with goals that are similar to those to the rest of the majority culture, homeschooling will evolve to become more like PS. Homeschooling was started by mostly fringe people with subculture values. Fringe teaching came naturally to them. A lot of that is not going to carry over well to the new breed of homeschoolers and is only going to confuse and distract them.

 

We are going to be seeing a lot more "school at home". And for some families that is the appropriate method. I know for me as an oldschooler, I need to be very careful about the advice I give newbies from the majority culture, especially as the children get older. My methods and stories are no more applicable that their grandmother's methods and stories.

 

I see lecturing for middle school science as an inevitable development, for many families.

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If you have the time for the lectures, it seems that the effort could be quite valuable to your son. Not only are you helping him understand the science, but he is also learning how to dissect dense text and how to build retention.

 

I started an Anki file for science and math for my son, but I am VERY judicious about putting facts into the file. For example, I think that the boiling point of water should be in one's long term memory. But I don't expect him to have long-term retention of the details from his science books. We just go through the Anki deck and let the built-in spaced repetition due its thing. Daily would be ideal, but that never happens :)

 

BTW, I had never heard of textmapping and I am SO excited to put this into our toolbox!

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As homeschooling evolves and more families come from the majority culture, with goals that are similar to those to the rest of the majority culture, homeschooling will evolve to become more like PS. Homeschooling was started by mostly fringe people with subculture values. Fringe teaching came naturally to them. A lot of that is not going to carry over well to the new breed of homeschoolers and is only going to confuse and distract them.

 

We are going to be seeing a lot more "school at home". And for some families that is the appropriate method. I know for me as an oldschooler, I need to be very careful about the advice I give newbies from the majority culture, especially as the children get older. My methods and stories are no more applicable that their grandmother's methods and stories.

 

I see lecturing for middle school science as an inevitable development, for many families.

 

I'm not against lecturing, really.

 

My worry is that science for younger kids should be fun. Discussion and experimentation are wonderful and valid ways to transfer scientific knowledge. There are also a multitude of interesting science books that a child can read and will read outside of school if given the chance. If the trend in homeschool science is lecturing and using textbooks that kids read then don't understand, I think those of us with experience should speak up. I know that most will ignore our advice and only take advice that agrees with their methods, but somebody reading it might be inspired.

Edited by Karen in CO
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As homeschooling evolves and more families come from the majority culture, with goals that are similar to those to the rest of the majority culture, homeschooling will evolve to become more like PS. Homeschooling was started by mostly fringe people with subculture values. Fringe teaching came naturally to them. A lot of that is not going to carry over well to the new breed of homeschoolers and is only going to confuse and distract them.

 

We are going to be seeing a lot more "school at home". And for some families that is the appropriate method. I know for me as an oldschooler, I need to be very careful about the advice I give newbies from the majority culture, especially as the children get older. My methods and stories are no more applicable that their grandmother's methods and stories.

 

I see lecturing for middle school science as an inevitable development, for many families.

 

 

I think there may be a misconception about what I mean when I say "lecturing".I am standing in front of a white board. But my child questions me constantly, we discuss concepts, I pause and ask questions, etc.

 

It's not a one-way street.

 

LOL, Now here I definitely agree with Halcyon. I mean, what is lecturing but tutoring standing up? :lol: For what it's worth, my feeble attempt at expressing an opinion was by posting that link. I think there is a continuum with teaching between entirely self-taught and entirely spoon-fed. If you're going to choose a textbook, I do think lecturing/interacting/tutoring/discussing/whiteboarding-diagramming/questioning and answering is the way to go. Taking notes from a textbook is a useful skill but lecturing (however you want to define that) is useful as well. Questions are asked and answered, misconceptions can be cleared up right away, the content can be taken deeper, etc., etc., etc.

 

Agreeing with Angela about lecturing being a useful and sometimes necessary part of education. If I went to a PS and saw kids learning strictly from the textbook without teacher lectures or signed up for college classes and was expected to read and understand, learn, with no lecture from my prof, I'd want my money back. :tongue_smilie:

Edited by Alte Veste Academy
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If you have the time for the lectures, it seems that the effort could be quite valuable to your son. Not only are you helping him understand the science, but he is also learning how to dissect dense text and how to build retention.

 

I started an Anki file for science and math for my son, but I am VERY judicious about putting facts into the file. For example, I think that the boiling point of water should be in one's long term memory. But I don't expect him to have long-term retention of the details from his science books. We just go through the Anki deck and let the built-in spaced repetition due its thing. Daily would be ideal, but that never happens :)

 

BTW, I had never heard of textmapping and I am SO excited to put this into our toolbox!

 

Thanks Penguin! We used Anki last year but I was bad about updating it. Maybe I will just add things to our memory folder.

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LOL, Now here I definitely agree with Halcyon. I mean, what is lecturing but tutoring standing up? :lol: For what it's worth, my feeble attempt at expressing an opinion was by posting that link. I think there is a continuum with teaching between entirely self-taught and entirely spoon-fed. If you're going to choose a textbook, I do think lecturing/interacting/tutoring/discussing/whiteboarding-diagramming/questioning and answering is the way to go. Taking notes from a textbook is a useful skill but lecturing (however you want to define that) is useful as well. Questions are asked and answered, misconceptions can be cleared up right away, the content can be taken deeper, etc., etc., etc.

 

Agreeing with Angela about lecturing being a useful and sometimes necessary part of education. If I went to a PS and saw kids learning strictly from the textbook without teacher lectures or signed up for college classes and was expected to read and understand, learn, with no lecture from my prof, I'd want my money back. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

Well, exactly. I stand up because I need to use the big whiteboard. I do expect my son to write down notes, simply because then he can review them and we can discuss information he might have "missed" that was actually important....sort of like when your child narrates and he has missed the entire point of the story, you correct him. It is hard for anyone to listen to a "lecture" and be able to pull out the critical elements.

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:lurk5:

 

Did I miss the memo on what 10yos are supposed to like?

 

My dd didn't know any better--when she was 10 she found mitochondria interesting.

 

 

Right. My son was curious about lipids because his grandfather had coronary heart disease and we had discussed the cause. I think just about ANYTHING can be interesting, to be honest. It doesn't needs to be "spiders vs. carbohydrates" and spiders "win".

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:lurk5:

 

Did I miss the memo on what 10yos are supposed to like?

 

My dd didn't know any better--when she was 10 she found mitochondria interesting.

 

Right. My son was curious about lipids because his grandfather had coronary heart disease and we had discussed the cause. I think just about ANYTHING can be interesting, to be honest. It doesn't needs to be "spiders vs. carbohydrates" and spiders "win".

 

I agree that anything can be interesting. What you've got here (and what you're always going to get here :tongue_smilie:) is simply a philosophical disagreement about child-led vs teacher-led, living books vs textbooks, reading vs playing, memorization vs exposure, etc. But we each have to HS from our own experience, conscience, comfort level...

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I think there may be a misconception about what I mean when I say "lecturing".I am standing in front of a white board. But my child questions me constantly, we discuss concepts, I pause and ask questions, etc.

 

It's not a one-way street.

 

Oh, we need to start these discussions with a definition of terms. I like to sit with a small whiteboard. If I stand in front of my kids, I start to act silly.

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Oh, we need to start these discussions with a definition of terms. I like to sit with a small whiteboard. If I stand in front of my kids, I start to act silly.

 

You know what's funny is that it would never have occurred to me to stand up and teach at the whiteboard until I listened to Andrew Pudewa's talk Teaching Boys and Other Kids Who Would Rather Be Playing in Forts. After listening to this, a light bulb turned on for me about DS9 (who would be diagnosed ADD if in school). DS9 loves the whiteboard. It is magical when I teach from the whiteboard...not a little handheld one. The small one works great with DD but DS9 needs BIG--big board, big movement, big ideas, big everything.

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Same with my 10 year old. I don't think that's the point though. Nobody is saying don't do the advanced topics. They are saying, maybe the mentioned method/style of learning the material is a little too advanced for most 10 year olds.

 

So "lecturing", as defined above, is a style inappropriate for many 5th graders? (Not being snarky, just trying to understand). And beginning to learn to take "notes" (meaning, trying to pull out the most important information from either a text or a "lecture" is also too advanced for many 5th graders? Hmmm. This is not the problem here. He IS learning how to take notes, but does need my help. And I think this is the right age to BEGIN to learn this skill. I could be off-base though. I only know my own child.

 

With regards to child-led or teacher-led (and this has been discussed ad nauseum), it does not have to be one or the other...My child has plenty of time to pursue his own (science) interests and there is also a place in our homeschool for teacher-led science, where I guide the way and the student learns, while at the same time posing questions, getting feedback and learning new skills.

Edited by Halcyon
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Halcyon, you'll get the same negative feedback if you talk about lecturing high schoolers. LOL It's just not homeschool-y enough.

 

When my crew started with TOG, I lectured every day because some of my boys weren't quite seeing how all the elements worked together (they'd never done unit studies before). They loved my lectures! I had a chalkboard or whiteboard for my outlines, things to show-and-tell, book or magazine excerpts to read aloud, Youtube videos, or whatever I wanted to include.

 

Starting our afternoons that way kept us all on the same page, helped us share the topics, and taught them how to take notes while paying attention and asking questions in a lecture-ish situation.

 

I'm doing less lecturing now because I simply don't have time since we added another student, and we all miss that format. I intend to get back to it next year when my tutored student moves on to an online school.

 

If the child is interested in a lofty topic but needs help sorting through the material, I see no reason in the world not to help him with it in any way that you both find enjoyable and beneficial. If that means a whiteboard and an outline, then that's fine!

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My dd goes to a brick and mortar school this year. One of the reasons we chose the school was the science teacher. He loves science. He is enthusiastic, and he gets the kids excited about learning. He doesn't read from the book (and their book has the vocabulary highlighted, and the key ideas listed). The kids read for homework and write the vocabulary, then he talks to them, shows them, asks them questions, demonstrates, explains, and listens. The school uses Socratic dialog as one of their primary teaching tools.

 

That's awesome, thanks for sharing. Thanks to BFSU, I teach very similarly to this teacher - and I love science too! It's a wonder for me to discover alongside my children. The difference is we use living books instead of textbooks, and add a weekly nature walk/nature study to the mix.

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I think there may be a misconception about what I mean when I say "lecturing".I am standing in front of a white board. But my child questions me constantly, we discuss concepts, I pause and ask questions, etc.

 

It's not a one-way street.

 

I do this too. I like to illustrate concepts because both ds and I are visually oriented.

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No, but I guess I work on those skills outside of science? I don't know how else to say it.

 

Ok, not to in turn be snarky, I thought you were asking for opinions/perspectives regarding this. I didn't say you don't know your child or that you should do it the way I do it.

 

Hmmm, well I am, but I think I was looking for advice as to how to help my son retain information from a fairly dense text, and whether "lecturing" before, after, or at all would detract or add to his ability to understand the text. I dont want my lecturing to supplant his learning through reading, and I guess I was concerned that I was "leading" him too much and preventing him from learning independently. Thanks :)

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Okay, so older read a chapter of CPO last week and seemingly didn't retain much. This isnt the fault of the text, I don't think. I think that he finds reading denser non-fiction text is just harder for him still. I have no doubt it will come, eventually. Anyway, I ended up teaching a lecture from the text (covering the same material), using a white board to "outline" the text, show subheadings etc so he would understand things like "Oh, so the four groups of carbon based compounds that compose living things are lipids, carbohydrates, proteins, and nucleic acids. And two TYPES of carbohydrates are...." and so on. It makes it more clear to him. The question is, should he be able to do this on his own right now? Read the text and be able to outline and understand the info and RETAIN it? I feel like he really needs notes to do that, and when I lecture, it seems easier for him to take notes.

 

WOuld appreciate insight, thanks!

 

To answer your question, I generally don't believe a recently-turned-10yo *should* be able to outline (to two levels, or did you do more than two?) a dense text (such as you described) on his own right now, understand the dense info., and retain the dense info. A kid that age might be able to, might be capable of learning how to, etc., but should? No. And I think it's especially unusual for boys that age to do be able to do so.

 

As far as the *method* you used to show him how to pull info. from a text, I think that is fine (whiteboard, discussing, showing him how to organize it outline-style). But I would take all those skills that are wrapped up in your final expectation and slow them down. Is it really he (as you stated) who is trying to figure out how to retain info., or is it you who hopes to quickly be able to get him to be able to? Rushing these skills could backfire once he hits puberty. And I wouldn't force learning these skills through a dense text at this age, either. If he enjoys it, go for it. But if it's a struggle, use less dense material.

 

I am sorry it makes you sad. My son is not sad. He is just trying to figure out how to retain it. I think covering this material, particularly as it relates to food and diet, is more than appropriate for an advanced 10 year old.

 

No need to feel sad for my child. He has a lot of fun with his science experiments, lapbooks and notebooking. It's not all torture. Some of it is even "thrilling and intriguing and well-loved". I know, shock! :tongue_smilie:

 

Halcyon, I don't think 8FilltheHeart means that you shouldn't teach the reading/notetaking/retaining skills with material covering lipids/carbohydrates/nucleic acid - I believe she's probably reacting to your comments that your son's science reading is "dense." Yes, that stuff comes across as quite dense for a 10yo - if your son is into it, by all means use it. But I think her point was that that type of dense reading material isn't *necessary for this age,* and yet it seems to be part of your requirements of him (why not let him practice notetaking on less dense material?).

 

I've read through threads you've started over the past few months about him or your school schedule. You often seem frustrated or dissatisfied with how things are going for him academically. I also know you've talked about him being accelerated, and I know you've been doing Henle Latin with him for awhile, starting at age eight or nine. Those threads (and this one) plus this knowledge indicate to me that you, well, might be pushing him a little too much. Even your post on his stress-induced knuckle-cracking - you talked there about it being mostly related to his academics. Yes, you wrote that he does it when not stressed, but it seems the habit was borne from stress?

 

I have a bright, accelerated son, too, who could probably have started Henle earlier than he did, and probably could have started algebra earlier than he did. I'm glad now that I didn't go that route, because he hit the "brain-fog" that someone mentioned to you in an earlier thread, and things came to a standstill with his learning. He is coming out on the other side of that fog now, and not having covered denser materials in his younger years has not hindered him from learning them now. And he has been able to learn, on easier materials, the skills necessary to mine denser materials now. The skills come easily to him now, making the reading (AKA studying) easier to organize and retain, which seems to be your goal.

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Halcyon, your initial post touched emotional strings for me and I suspect, some others as well. I had a vision of your avatar standing in those horrible, clunky, cement boots of doubt. Most of us have worn them and know how painful they can be. They make us doubt our kids and ourselves and they never take us home. In hindsight, you would have been better served if I had taken the time to be more thoughtful in my response. I really do apologize.

 

Okay, so older read a chapter of CPO last week and seemingly didn't retain much. This isnt the fault of the text, I don't think. I think that he finds reading denser non-fiction text is just harder for him still. I have no doubt it will come, eventually.

Anyway, I ended up teaching a lecture from the text (covering the same material), using a white board to "outline" the text, show subheadings etc so he would understand things like "Oh, so the four groups of carbon based compounds that compose living things are lipids, carbohydrates, proteins, and nucleic acids. And two TYPES of carbohydrates are...." and so on. It makes it more clear to him. The question is, should he be able to do this on his own right now? Read the text and be able to outline and understand the info and RETAIN it? I feel like he really needs notes to do that, and when I lecture, it seems easier for him to take notes.

 

WOuld appreciate insight, thanks!

 

To me, your post sounded as though you were concerned that your son was not where he should be in the early months of fifth grade in his science/study skill abilities. As an old mother, I can't see any problems with where he is at right now. CPO Science's middle school program is written for 6th-8th grade. Your guy is on the younger end of the spectrum and may struggle a bit with the material. That's okay, but recognize that perhaps it is a text issue, not a child issue. That Life text has a ton of information in it and I think the simple layout can be deceptive as to the depth of the material.

 

You found a brilliant way to adapt to your son's needs. No problems here with your white board discussions! It was your question that may have been problematic. It is a loaded question. A definite "yes" or "no" da@ns both the the person asking the question and the one answering the question. "Maybe" isn't very helpful, but it is the most honest, because at ten, kids' abilities are all over the board. For our family, 5th grade and 8th grade were enormous growth years. Students were unrecognizable skill-wise by the end of the year.

 

One thing that is not discussed often enough on this board is what happens when the intellectual growth outpaces the growth in process skills. My youngest moved into algebra in the middle of 7th grade. He got the concepts, but it took forever to complete the written work. I was second-guessing my decision and seriously considered putting him back, when I read a post from a mom whose boys were very advanced mathematically, but their writing skills weren't on the same level. She had them dictate their answers to her. This went against everything I thought a math student at that level should do. However, it made a huge difference in what we were able to accomplish. My son was mentally ready for the work, but the amount of writing involved was a struggle for him physically.

 

I am just throwing out another idea for you to consider.

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Ok, this is totally off topic, but I've been wondering why you switched from BfSU to CPO? I could have sworn you posted something about BFSU2 being the bomb and then all of a sudden you weren't doing it any more.

Just curious....as someone who is still doing BFSU verrrrry slooooowly.

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I don't remember taking notes from lectures until high school, or am I just having a bad memory? Seems like in middle school, we just wrote down whatever the teacher wrote on the board - that was learning to take notes. In high school, we moved to writing down our own notes.

 

I'm 99% sure that in 5th grade, we were not taking notes of any kind during class.

 

I don't have a problem with lecturing, but I do agree with a few others that it sounds like (from your description), you're trying to push him into higher level expectations than what he's ready for. As a fellow mom of an accelerated kid, I know it's hard to match up input to output. Usually I have to give a much higher input and expect a lower output. My son can understand a middle school level text in 3rd grade, but he cannot outline that text or otherwise take notes yet (or we'd be sitting here all day). I also don't expect him to have a lot of retention on nitty gritty details. He's learning more than is typical for his age group in a b&m school, but he is not working at the same output level as the level of the input.

 

This week, DS1 has been reading some stuff in The Way We Work. It's fairly dense for a 3rd grader and has a lot of details. I read about macrophages out loud because my 5 year old wanted to know what that picture was talking about. I don't know reading about it helped. :lol: Anyway, I won't be testing my 3rd grader on macrophages. He doesn't really need to retain that material at this point. Right now, I'm all about exposure. He is being exposed to a lot of different science material at various depth, and in high school he'll see much of it again and be expected to retain it. It's the same with history - if you're doing a 4 year cycle, you go through it 3 times, so you don't have to remember every little detail the first cycle through... you just expose them and they'll have a big picture idea of the information already when they hit it again the next cycle.

 

But by all means, stand up and explain the text at the white board. I think it's a good idea to use white boards (my son learns sooooo much more math at the white board, so I use it a lot). I just wouldn't expect hefty note taking and remembering dense material long term in 5th grade.

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I don't remember taking notes from lectures until high school, or am I just having a bad memory? Seems like in middle school, we just wrote down whatever the teacher wrote on the board - that was learning to take notes. In high school, we moved to writing down our own notes.

 

I'm 99% sure that in 5th grade, we were not taking notes of any kind during class.

 

I don't have a problem with lecturing, but I do agree with a few others that it sounds like (from your description), you're trying to push him into higher level expectations than what he's ready for. As a fellow mom of an accelerated kid, I know it's hard to match up input to output. Usually I have to give a much higher input and expect a lower output. My son can understand a middle school level text in 3rd grade, but he cannot outline that text or otherwise take notes yet (or we'd be sitting here all day). I also don't expect him to have a lot of retention on nitty gritty details. He's learning more than is typical for his age group in a b&m school, but he is not working at the same output level as the level of the input.

 

This week, DS1 has been reading some stuff in The Way We Work. It's fairly dense for a 3rd grader and has a lot of details. I read about macrophages out loud because my 5 year old wanted to know what that picture was talking about. I don't know reading about it helped. :lol: Anyway, I won't be testing my 3rd grader on macrophages. He doesn't really need to retain that material at this point. Right now, I'm all about exposure. He is being exposed to a lot of different science material at various depth, and in high school he'll see much of it again and be expected to retain it. It's the same with history - if you're doing a 4 year cycle, you go through it 3 times, so you don't have to remember every little detail the first cycle through... you just expose them and they'll have a big picture idea of the information already when they hit it again the next cycle.

 

But by all means, stand up and explain the text at the white board. I think it's a good idea to use white boards (my son learns sooooo much more math at the white board, so I use it a lot). I just wouldn't expect hefty note taking and remembering dense material long term in 5th grade.

 

Exactly the same here. I have a few large, lightweight portable white boards that I can leave information on for the day, week or whatever.

 

We just started learning how to outline. We talk together while I write on the board. It is a unit in IEW we just started. But yeah I have to still give a lot of input.

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I'm not against lecturing, really.

 

My worry is that science for younger kids should be fun. Discussion and experimentation are wonderful and valid ways to transfer scientific knowledge. There are also a multitude of interesting science books that a child can read and will read outside of school if given the chance. If the trend in homeschool science is lecturing and using textbooks that kids read then don't understand, I think those of us with experience should speak up. I know that most will ignore our advice and only take advice that agrees with their methods, but somebody reading it might be inspired.

 

I'm so out of touch with the lifestyle of some of the younger majority culture moms, that I feel like my ex-husband's immigrant grandmother did when I discussed my boys' Tae Kwon Do instruction. She would just shake her head and say things had changed. Her boys got their exercise and discipline by farming, and their favorite form of competition was rock throwing fights.

 

I can sometimes link to a method or technique or text, but big picture advice and "shoulds" are just not my place to give, to moms who live in a different world that I do/did. Some of you other oldschool moms are more in touch with the world these younger moms live in and can give more advice than I can. Sometimes you can't. Being an oldschooler, even a successful one, doesn't always mean what worked for us will carry over to all of the next generation.

 

I think these new moms have it as hard as we did, and maybe even harder, but it's a new world out there, and sometimes our old methods won't work for them.

 

I now see that Tae Kwon Do wasn't worth the time and money we invested in it, but farming and rock fighting were not options either. I did the best I could. Our best is always good enough.

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Okay, so older read a chapter of CPO last week and seemingly didn't retain much. This isnt the fault of the text, I don't think. I think that he finds reading denser non-fiction text is just harder for him still. I have no doubt it will come, eventually. Anyway, I ended up teaching a lecture from the text (covering the same material), using a white board to "outline" the text, show subheadings etc so he would understand things like "Oh, so the four groups of carbon based compounds that compose living things are lipids, carbohydrates, proteins, and nucleic acids. And two TYPES of carbohydrates are...." and so on. It makes it more clear to him. The question is, should he be able to do this on his own right now? Read the text and be able to outline and understand the info and RETAIN it? I feel like he really needs notes to do that, and when I lecture, it seems easier for him to take notes.

 

WOuld appreciate insight, thanks!

 

I know there are a lot of positive posts about CPO, but we tried several of the middle school books and just found them unengaging and simplistic and without the depth my boys were wanting on many topics. I think we tried them in 5th and 6th grade. If you really like the book, I don't see anything wrong with clarifying the concepts and facts through discussion.

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I am sorry it makes you sad. My son is not sad. He is just trying to figure out how to retain it. I think covering this material, particularly as it relates to food and diet, is more than appropriate for an advanced 10 year old.

 

No need to feel sad for my child. He has a lot of fun with his science experiments, lapbooks and notebooking. It's not all torture. Some of it is even "thrilling and intriguing and well-loved". I know, shock! :tongue_smilie:

 

Perhaps I misread your OP or used misplaced assumptions? :confused: Based on my readings of your posts on the forum, I started off w/the assumption that he was a highly gifted 10 yr old. I apologize b/c my experience w/my kids has been that when they are engaged in what they are reading that surface details like lists generally do not need explanation and my engaging in teaching like you are describing has normally been limited to helping them make connections w/processes or nuanced information that isn't so explicit.

 

When I read your OP, I interpreted it as he had read the text and then was having difficulty answering knowledge-based questions such as listing the 2 groups of carbohydrates are_____? W/ my kids that is normally an indication that they have not been engaged in close reading/actively engaged w/the content since it is not interpretation based, but simply reiterating what would have been stated in the text. When they can't answer questions like those, I switch to assuming that they have been zoned out while reading or reading to just get it done.

 

Since you have explained that he actually is really interested in this topic (which is what I was alluding to w/tarantulas vs. lipids and not making a commentary on what topics should or shouldn't be studied), with my kids it would indicate that it is a child that has not yet mastered the art of discerning important details from superfluous details and that they are overwhelmed by all of the information and therefore aren't actually processing any of it appropriately. Discriminating key details is skill in and of itself.

 

Engaged actively in reading normally means being able to repeat highlights. If when engaged in the reading the student is unable to discern highlights from all the info and wants to re-tell everything vs. summarized key pts or selects inappropriate details then that is an indication they haven't really mastered the art of discriminating key info. It sounds like this is the skill your ds needs to develop.

 

FWIW, highlighting terms is again a different skill from understanding long explanations of processes or attempting to make associations. Interpretation of info from reading is a step beyond repetition of the text lists/definitions and requires being able to articulate it in their own words.

 

I apologize for my assumption that your ds had already mastered discriminating key info from his reading. It really sounds like that is what you were trying to accomplish at the white board. Helping him make that leap is vital and is what is often accomplished for many students via narration. Or teachers at a white board. ;) (I personally don't use either w/my kids. our interaction is more simple dialogue. It is also how they learn to write, so writing assignments also develop the ability to discern and synthesize.) Giving a pre-reading list of questions to be able to answer is another typical teacher method of directing close reading.

 

Outlining a single paragraph of text also will help develop the skills, then graduating from a paragraph to a single page, etc. Learning to take notes from their reading of an entire chpt is typically more effective when they have already learned to synthesize their reading and their notes are thus confined to key info.

 

My kids do this while they gather info for reports. Outlining chpts is another approach, but I have no experience of doing that w/10 yr olds since outlining chpts is what my kids typically do in high school and college in order to create study sheets for exams.

 

And, from my perspective, all of the above is best learned w/high interest materials. Otherwise, being disinterested means that none of it is pertinent or important. ;)

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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Ok, this is totally off topic, but I've been wondering why you switched from BfSU to CPO? I could have sworn you posted something about BFSU2 being the bomb and then all of a sudden you weren't doing it any more.

Just curious....as someone who is still doing BFSU verrrrry slooooowly.

 

From the bomb thread. Some of us like to combine multiple resources...traditional with non-traditional, textbook with living book, etc.

 

I don't know why but this thread is starting to eat at me. I feel like everyone is ganging up on Halcyon but when I reread her posts in this thread, she came in recognizing the need to take a step back from the dense text, to relax expectations that her DS tackle it on his own. She recognized that it was dense and has starting lecturing/tutoring to teach him the skill of note-taking. Well, my DS9 is in 4th and we're doing outlining, at an appropriate level. He loves it! I can see him learning note-taking next year and, gasp, enjoying it. The narration-->outline-->note-taking path seems pretty linear. Anyway, the whole teacher-led vs child led thing. LOL DS takes his own notes for his science/tinkering lab anyway. That's OK (obviously, because he does it himself!) but somehow formally teaching him is not? :confused: Nah. I think that learning note-taking as a formal skill is not too far off for him and that he will immediately relish its usefulness in everyday life.

 

Maybe some of us wouldn't use a textbook for science at this age, or even a middle-school text a year early. Fine. But it's not wrong to use a textbook for science, just a different choice. It's dense. OK. Let's compare it to high-quality lit, which can also be dense. How many of us read difficult lit to our kids? To stretch them? If I hand my kids something too hard, and see that it's too much of a stretch for them to read on their own and that there is zero understanding, maybe I then read it aloud and we discuss. I stretch them. I mentor them. I teach them. That's what she's doing here.

 

I don't know. Halcyon didn't ask how could she get him to be able to read this dense text on his own, right now, immediately. She asked should he be able to do it? Most people say no. Fine. Yay! What a relief! She said she has found value in lecturing even though it's more work. Sounds like she's relaxed her expectations here and everyone is railing on her for high expectations.

 

I get the points here. I do. I get everyone's point. Just some thoughts I had... Even though I would (and do) make entirely different choices, I see the validity of others.

Edited by Alte Veste Academy
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Actually I felt she was being pretty snarky towards me, but it's a message board so I can't tell exactly.

 

I often respond with whatever thought pops into my head. It's not always totally coherent or totally well thought out I admit, but I never intend to tell anyone how they should do things. I do have a bright 10 year old though so it's not like I'm totally clueless to issues that come up.

 

But I apologize if I was seemed unsupportive or useless. ;)

 

I wasn't thinking of or calling out any poster in particular. Just a general fuzzy feeling of discomfort I was getting. :tongue_smilie:

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I am sorry it makes you sad. My son is not sad. He is just trying to figure out how to retain it. I think covering this material, particularly as it relates to food and diet, is more than appropriate for an advanced 10 year old.

 

No need to feel sad for my child. He has a lot of fun with his science experiments, lapbooks and notebooking. It's not all torture. Some of it is even "thrilling and intriguing and well-loved". I know, shock! :tongue_smilie:

I think there may be a misconception about what I mean when I say "lecturing".I am standing in front of a white board. But my child questions me constantly, we discuss concepts, I pause and ask questions, etc.

It's not a one-way street.

With regards to child-led or teacher-led (and this has been discussed ad nauseum), it does not have to be one or the other! My child has plenty of time to pursue his own (science) interests and there is also a place in our homeschool for teacher-led science, where I guide the way and the student learns, while at the same time posing questions, getting feedback and learning new skills.

:grouphug:

We do totally interest-led, hands-on, nontextbook science here, because that's what works for my family, but I totally get that other options work just as well for other families. As I understand it, you are using science to teach study skills, notetaking skills, etc., whereas others may be doing the exact same thing, but with a different subject, such as history or literature. Not sure why teaching a child to outline a history encyclopedia is great, but doing the same with a science text isn't.

 

Have you posted your question on the accelerated board? You might get different responses there.

 

Jackie

Edited by Corraleno
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Maybe some of us wouldn't use a textbook for science at this age, or even a middle-school text a year early. Fine. But it's not wrong to use a textbook for science, just a different choice. It's dense. OK. Let's compare it to high-quality lit, which can also be dense. How many of us read difficult lit to our kids? To stretch them? If I hand my kids something too hard, and see that it's too much of a stretch for them to read on their own and that there is zero understanding, maybe I then read it aloud and we discuss. I stretch them. I mentor them. I teach them. That's what she's doing here.

:iagree:!

 

Jackie

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