Wow....just wow...

[GWOB]

It is not separate standards. It is not different standards. It's a goal to narrow the achievement gap that persists because of the legacy of generational poverty and lasting impacts of racism which have persisted long after Brown.

 

How in the world is it not separate standards? White kids have one standard. Asian kids have a different (separate) standard. Black and Hispanic kids have a different (separate) standard. And what do those separate standards imply? Seems to me as though we are just giving up on kids with darker skin tones.

[LucyStoner]

:iagree: How about I just follow you around this thread and agree with everything you say.

 

Chocolate Reign, we acknowledge the achievement gap. Many of us just think we should treat the actual problems (reduced opportunities, poor educational institutions in lower socioeconomic neighborhoods,etc.) rather than the symptoms (poor test performance).

 

Of course you can't alleviate the symptoms without tackling the root cause of the problems. But schools are under pressure to show value and document progress with metrics. This is a measure to see how well they address the problems over 6 years. Like a 5 year business plan. I think tax payers tend to want to see the impact of what they are funding.

[justasque]

But none of this justifies raising kids with different expectations for different races.

 

I completely agree it's a concern. I'm just saying that it's complicated.

 

I'm assuming they have been forced into it by No Child Left Behind. Apparently, NCLB is judging them based on how these subgroups do, and, because their funding depends on it, they are therefore forced to create goals for the subgroups.

 

And the fact is they are starting with a 69/53/38 white/hispanic/black pass rate, which shows HUGE disparity. So what are they supposed to do?

 

Do we want them to get to 69/69/69? That would mean holding one group steady while improving another - that's not ideal for the "steady" group.

 

But something like bringing each group up by the same amount - say increasing each by 10 to 79/63/48 - isn't great either, as it doesn't help close the gap at all.

 

So something in between the two extremes would be to bring up all groups, *and* try to close the gap between groups, which looks like what they're trying to do. Their goal is 88/81/74, which increases the groups by 19/28/36. I'm assuming their plan is that if this trend continues for a few more years, it will ramp up to a point where all groups have equal pass rate goals.

 

I don't know if this is a good (temporary) answer or not. I don't know what the answer is. I'm not comfortable with race-based goals at all.

 

I think that in districts like Palm Beach, race is largely a very strong marker for all kinds of other things that affect educational achievement - poverty, parent's educational level, and so on. In some ways, I'd rather see them use the other markers rather than race. At the same time, I've seen blatant, astounding, unapologetic, flat-out racism in Palm Beach like I've never seen anywhere else. Having seen it, I can't pretend it doesn't play a role. I don't have any answers.

 

And all this assumes that the school district is going to be able to help the free-range 3 year olds who wander barefoot downtown, cared for by their 7 year old siblings, neither of whom, sadly, are welcome at the West Palm public library, get the same test scores as the Palm Beach kids whose nanny takes them to tennis lessons and ballet classes and museum visits and library story hours. And I know that race shouldn't be an accurate marker as to which is which, but in Palm Beach, it is. It just is.

 

If you ask me - should we raise kids of different races with different expectations, I'd say of course not.

 

But if you ask me - should we ignore the fact that in some districts kids of one race are doing significantly worse than kids of another race, I'd also say of course not.

 

How do you deal with both those things at the same time? I don't have a clue. All I'm saying is, it's complicated.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

How in the world is it not separate standards? White kids have one standard. Asian kids have a different (separate) standard. Black and Hispanic kids have a different (separate) standard. And what do those separate standards imply? Seems to me as though we are just giving up on kids with darker skin tones.

 

The standards for individual students are identical. In all fairness, one could better argue that failing to address the performance gap is more in violation of Brown than this policy is.

 

Please explain how creating a plan to double the proficiency rate in a demographic group is giving up on kids.

[fhjmom]

The jaw-droppers aren't ignoring anything, Chocolate Reign. Everybody knows about the problems.

 

The jaw-droppers have dropped jaws because in the states of Florida and Virginia, white, black, and Hispanic children are being told that the expectations for them are lower than for Asians, and Asians are being told that they are expected to be higher-performing simply because they are Asian. And children of more than one demographic are being told what? Who knows?

 

We've got black students with assigned seats at the back of the bus. That's jaw-dropping.

 

No, they are not. Each student as an individual is told that they are expected to achieve grade level performance, regardless of their demographics. The standard each student must meet to be considered "on grade level" is the same, no matter what the color of their skin or what other socioeconomic influences play a part. No individual is being let off the hook or being held to a lesser standard because of the color of their skin.

 

Recognizing that a higher percentage of students from certain groups are falling to meet these standards is statistical facts, not racism. The fact that lower performances in those groups have existed is a complex issue related more to culture and socioecomic factors, IMHO, that coincidentally also happen to statistically follow racial demographics. Not something I like, I wish it wasn't the case, but it is the sad truth.

[Reflections]

We need more than school goals and bureaucratic nonsense to solve this issue. I just see this as far different than the VA and Oakland stuff it is being compared to.

 

 

How? Because when I read the articles they sounded very similar. Even their NUMBERS are similar. Makes me think that they are pulling from the same source to draft their plans.....

[kiana]

Seems more like a goal is being set which (if accomplished) will greatly reduce the *already-existing* enormous disparity between these different groups of students *on the same test*. The fact that the disparity exists is a lot more upsetting than the steps the school is trying to take to gradually narrow the gap.

 

Frankly I would rather see a student-improvement-based system where individual students are tracked for improvement.

[Reflections]

No, they are not. Each student as an individual is told that they are expected to achieve grade level performance, regardless of their demographics. The standard each student must meet to be considered "on grade level" is the same, no matter what the color of their skin or what other socioeconomic influences play a part. No individual is being let off the hook or being held to a lesser standard because of the color of their skin.

 

Recognizing that a higher percentage of students from certain groups are falling to meet these standards is statistical facts, not racism. The fact that lower performances in those groups have existed is a complex issue related more to culture and socioecomic factors, IMHO, that coincidentally also happen to statistically follow racial demographics. Not something I like, I wish it wasn't the case, but it is the sad truth.

 

My opinion in the last discussion on this topic and now, is that the schools can't meet the NCLB standards/benchmarks by 2014 and are now changing the "rules" to better meet them.

[LucyStoner]

How in the world is it not separate standards? White kids have one standard. Asian kids have a different (separate) standard. Black and Hispanic kids have a different (separate) standard. And what do those separate standards imply? Seems to me as though we are just giving up on kids with darker skin tones.

 

A separate standard would be that you, as an individual student, pass/meet the standard with a lower score based on race, gender, eye color, address or if you know the superintendent. This is a business/district goal to see progress towards district wide goal of increasing the number of students meeting the standards. It is not a discrepancy by student but a metric of how well the district addresses the issue. Basically ALL districts have a gap. It will not get better by ignoring it or not bothering to take the stats at all. If the gap widens or narrows that can illuminate what is going on and mean they need to either do something else or know (if it lessens) that they are making progress on a worthy goal. They are not lowering the bar for any students. Right now the numbers are gosh darn awful. How would you propose they improve outcomes for all students and narrow the long existing achievement gap without noting that it exists? How would you write the plan? Lump all kids together and set a goal that does not look at the numbers by race at all?

[LucyStoner]

How? Because when I read the articles they sounded very similar. Even their NUMBERS are similar. Makes me think that they are pulling from the same source to draft their plans.....

 

 

I was under the impression that VA had different admission standards by race? If I am wrong forgive me but that is not at all what this article describes.

[GWOB]

Of course you can't alleviate the symptoms without tackling the root cause of the problems. But schools are under pressure to show value and document progress with metrics. This is a measure to see how well they address the problems over 6 years. Like a 5 year business plan. I think tax payers tend to want to see the impact of what they are funding.

 

I'm hormonal, my dh is working nights for the next 2 months, and I am all hopped up on Sudafed. Do NOT get me started on NCLB!:tongue_smilie::lol:

 

The standards for individual students are identical. In all fairness, one could better argue that failing to address the performance gap is more in violation of Brown than this policy is.

 

Please explain how creating a plan to double the proficiency rate in a demographic group is giving up on kids.

 

You know, I can maybe respect that these people were trying to implement a plan to reduce the achievement gap. However, the ramifications of telling an entire race of people "We expect less of you because of the color of your skin" sticks in my craw like a public school cupcake party. (Pathetically trying to diffuse tensions with an inappropriate WTM joke)

[justasque]

My opinion in the last discussion on this topic and now, is that the schools can't meet the NCLB standards/benchmarks by 2014 and are now changing the "rules" to better meet them.

 

Yep. The article said "State Board of Education Chairwoman Kathleen Shanahan said that setting goals for different subgroups was needed to comply with terms of a waiver that Florida and 32 other states have from some provisions of the federal No Child Left Behind Act. These waivers were used to make the states independent from some federal regulations."

[justasque]

I'm hormonal, my dh is working nights for the next 2 months, and I am all hopped up on Sudafed. Do NOT get me started on NCLB!:tongue_smilie::lol:

 

Right there with you!

[Joker]

 

You know, I can maybe respect that these people were trying to implement a plan to reduce the achievement gap. However, the ramifications of telling an entire race of people "We expect less of you because of the color of your skin" sticks in my craw like a public school cupcake party. (Pathetically trying to diffuse tensions with an inappropriate WTM joke)

 

There not expecting less of them, though. If I'm reading the statistics right, they're actually expecting more of them. They are expecting minorites to have a greater rate of improvement.

[Reflections]

Yep. The article said "State Board of Education Chairwoman Kathleen Shanahan said that setting goals for different subgroups was needed to comply with terms of a waiver that Florida and 32 other states have from some provisions of the federal No Child Left Behind Act. These waivers were used to make the states independent from some federal regulations."

 

So the numbers are from the same source.

[LucyStoner]

I'm hormonal, my dh is working nights for the next 2 months, and I am all hopped up on Sudafed. Do NOT get me started on NCLB!:tongue_smilie::lol:

 

You know, I can maybe respect that these people were trying to implement a plan to reduce the achievement gap. However, the ramifications of telling an entire race of people "We expect less of you because of the color of your skin" sticks in my craw

 

I agree that NCLB sucks. But even the absence of NCLB, a well run district is going to set and work to meet ambitious internal district wide metrics.

 

On the last point that is just not what they are doing. Now child is being told they don't need to meet the standard to pass or graduate. All kids are giver the same exam. I doubt this goal is part of the lesson plan. But if we told anyone, kids or otherwise that equal numbers of all races would pass, we would be eating pot brownies while wearing rose colored glasses. ;)

 

I come from a mixed race family. Some of my sons' cousins are blond and pale. Some of my sons' cousins are black. Some are black and Hispanic. I am passionate about undoing racism and giving everyone fair and equal treatment. But it is not reasonable assume that my nieces and nephews are all treated the same or have the same statistical odds of academic success. That doesn't mean that all of the kids are not individually expected to achieve and work hard. They are all equal. But they do not all face the same situations and odds.

[LucyStoner]

There not expecting less of them, though. If I'm reading the statistics right, they're actually expecting more of them. They are expecting minorites to have a greater rate of improvement.

 

Good point.

[GWOB]

There not expecting less of them, though. If I'm reading the statistics right, they're actually expecting more of them. They are expecting minorites to have a greater rate of improvement.

 

Sure, a greater rate of improvement, but not the same level of achievement as Whites. However, do you not think teachers, knowing less is expected of "brown-skinned" kids, are not going to spend more time and effort on lighter-skinned kids? Because that is where I see policies such as these going. And what about all the Black and Hispanic kids? How are they going to feel, knowing a school district doesn't think they are up to par with the white kids? How are these separate, race-based standards going to affect and entire generation of minority kids? Will they grow up thinking they are "less than"?

[Joker]

So the numbers are from the same source.

 

The current numbers are not from the same source (at least I don't think) since the articles I've read here in Florida reference the FCAT for current percents. They may be getting the numbers for 2018 from the same source (at least the percentages), but I don't think they're all identical.

[Reflections]

I was under the impression that VA had different admission standards by race? If I am wrong forgive me but that is not at all what this article describes.

 

 

I have no idea if VA has admission standards by race, but these articles were about students in Elementary, Middle and High school.

 

The article for VA from August 2012:

http://www.dailypress.com/news/education/dp-nws-state-achievement-goals-20120801,0,1422387.story#

[Audrey]

Uh...

 

I'm a Canadian, so correct me if I'm wrong on this...

 

But wasn't the civil rights movement about equality? And in the not so distant past? Wasn't the fact that skin colour had nothing to do w/a person's value EXACTLY what Martin Luther King Jr was talking about in his I Have A Dream speach?

 

Or do I have my grasp of US history completely out of whack?

 

 

You are correct.

 

I am not at all surprised by this. I graduated from a PB Co. school. There is nothing really new about this. They've just finally put on paper what they've been practicing for decades. Anyone who pretends that racism is not happening, has not been happening, without end for decades beyond the civil right movement is an ostrich. One cannot live in the South and not be acutely aware of that elephant in the room.

[LucyStoner]

Sure, a greater rate of improvement, but not the same level of achievement as Whites. However, do you not think teachers, knowing less is expected of "brown-skinned" kids, are not going to spend more time and effort on lighter-skinned kids? Because that is where I see policies such as these going. And what about all the Black and Hispanic kids? How are they going to feel, knowing a school district doesn't think they are up to par with the white kids? How are these separate, race-based standards going to affect and entire generation of minority kids? Will they grow up thinking they are "less than"?

 

What do you suppose the kids feel like now if they see the actual results? Right now, basically 1/3 of whites and 2/3 of blacks are not meeting the standard. A different standard to pass (which would not ok) is not the same thing as a statistic showing that different percentages of kids of each group meet the standards (which is the reality, the stark and harsh truth).

[kiana]

Sure, a greater rate of improvement, but not the same level of achievement as Whites. However, do you not think teachers, knowing less is expected of "brown-skinned" kids, are not going to spend more time and effort on lighter-skinned kids? Because that is where I see policies such as these going. And what about all the Black and Hispanic kids? How are they going to feel, knowing a school district doesn't think they are up to par with the white kids? How are these separate, race-based standards going to affect and entire generation of minority kids? Will they grow up thinking they are "less than"?

 

Since they have to make a bigger improvement with them than with lighter-skinned kids, no, I would doubt it.

[LucyStoner]

One cannot live in the South and not be acutely aware of that elephant in the room.

 

Or the North or the west. This is a nationwide reality. It is appalling that it is this way. Part of why it is this way is that some people believed/believe that civil rights was the end of racism. As if! I live in the NW in a liberal city and racism permeates the whole school district. Truly not a heck of a lot of improvement since I was in kindergarten myself here.

[RainySunday]

As some others have said, a bunch of states are doing this, and it is a way to avoid some of the NCLB aspects. My dh is a teacher in a local district, and he was saying their requirement is for each year, each group to close their gap by 50%.

 

So if a group was at 80% currently, the next few years would look like: 90, 95, 97.5, etc. Accordingly, if a group was at 40%, their next three years would look like: 70%, 85%, 92.5%, etc.

 

The idea is closing the gap, for all groups. The change expected, is the same, but looks different when applied to different group's starting points.

 

I agree with those who've said it's complicated. I see what they are trying to do, I think, but at the same time, I think it's sad/ridiculous/etc, that we feel the need to apply different expectations to different groups (or honestly, to even be divided into racial groups), in 2012. Can't we all just be people?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Sure, a greater rate of improvement, but not the same level of achievement as Whites. However, do you not think teachers, knowing less is expected of "brown-skinned" kids, are not going to spend more time and effort on lighter-skinned kids? Because that is where I see policies such as these going.

 

Actually, if you use a bit of common sense you would see this policy actually moves in the opposite direction.

 

And what about all the Black and Hispanic kids? How are they going to feel, knowing a school district doesn't think they are up to par with the white kids? How are these separate, race-based standards going to affect and entire generation of minority kids? Will they grow up thinking they are "less than"?

 

Let me get this straight. A proficiency rate of 38% is less problematic than a plan to increase that rate to 74% in X years. Got it.

[Reflections]

The current numbers are not from the same source (at least I don't think) since the articles I've read here in Florida reference the FCAT for current percents. They may be getting the numbers for 2018 from the same source (at least the percentages), but I don't think they're all identical.

 

No, you are right, they are not identical. Perhaps the numbers just reflect the overall issue:

 

VA

 

Under the new system, Asian and white students, whose numbers have been highest, will be held to higher pass rates; blacks and Hispanics will be held to lower rates.

In math: The pass rate percentage for each group is as follows: all students, 61, Asian students, 82, white students, 68, Hispanic students, 52, black students, 45, English language learners, 39, economically disadvantaged students and the proficiency gap group, 47, and students with disabilities, 33.

In reading: The pass rate percentage for each group is as follows: all students, 85, Asian students, 92, white students, 90, Hispanic students, 80, black students, English language learners, economically disadvantaged students and the proficiency gap group, 76, and students with disabilities, 59.

 

FL

it wants 90 percent of Asian students, 88 percent of white students, 81 percent of Hispanics and 74 percent of black students to be reading at or above grade level. For math, the goals are 92 percent of Asian kids to be proficient, whites at 86 percent, Hispanics at 80 percent and blacks at 74 percent.

[GWOB]

You are correct.

 

I am not at all surprised by this. I graduated from a PB Co. school. There is nothing really new about this. They've just finally put on paper what they've been practicing for decades. Anyone who pretends that racism is not happening, has not been happening, without end for decades beyond the civil right movement is an ostrich. One cannot live in the South and not be acutely aware of that elephant in the room.

 

:iagree: I grew up in Louisiana and Georgia. The county where I lived in Georgia was closed off to Blacks. It still is:glare:. Just 4 years ago my stupid 17yo sister told my kids "All Black people are suspicious." My parents didn't get why I was livid. I almost puked when an elderly Black lady bowed to me and called me Ma'am when we accidentally bumped into one another. She was scared she'd lose her job because she bumped into a white lady.

 

Racism is still alive and well. Let's just call a spade a spade, then try to fix that problem. These policies scream racism to me. The bottom line is that we are expecting less of an entire race of people because of the color of their skin. That makes this white gal want to puke.

[BakersDozen]

There is nothing really new about this. They've just finally put on paper what they've been practicing for decades. Anyone who pretends that racism is not happening, has not been happening, without end for decades beyond the civil right movement is an ostrich. One cannot live in the South and not be acutely aware of that elephant in the room.

It's not just the South. AZ universities take great pride in their academic diversity and equality. Bull. I went to sign up for an ENG 101 class and was relieved to see that there were 15 seats left...only the advisor informed me that those seats were not really open as they were reserved for minorities. :001_huh: Racism is kept alive and well by many, including the very ones who speak loudest against it.

 

The bottom line is that we are expecting less of an entire race of people because of the color of their skin.

Yep. Edited October 15, 2012 by LuvnMySvn

[ChocolateReignRemix]

These policies scream racism to me. The bottom line is that we are expecting less of an entire race of people because of the color of their skin. That makes this white gal want to puke.

 

Again, please explain how implementing a plan to significantly improve performance by minority groups and closing the achievement gap is racist.

[GWOB]

Actually, if you use a bit of common sense you would see this policy actually moves in the opposite direction.

 

 

 

Let me get this straight. A proficiency rate of 38% is less problematic than a plan to increase that rate to 74% in X years. Got it.

 

Let's not resort to personal attacks here:). Questioning someone's common sense is not a valid way to argue your point. I can see where you are coming from. I just do not feel the same way. I respect our differences, and I am learning a lot in this discussion. Personal attacks cheapen the seriousness of this issue.

As some others have said, a bunch of states are doing this, and it is a way to avoid some of the NCLB aspects. My dh is a teacher in a local district, and he was saying their requirement is for each year, each group to close their gap by 50%.

 

So if a group was at 80% currently, the next few years would look like: 90, 95, 97.5, etc. Accordingly, if a group was at 40%, their next three years would look like: 70%, 85%, 92.5%, etc.

 

The idea is closing the gap, for all groups. The change expected, is the same, but looks different when applied to different group's starting points.

 

I agree with those who've said it's complicated. I see what they are trying to do, I think, but at the same time, I think it's sad/ridiculous/etc, that we feel the need to apply different expectations to different groups (or honestly, to even be divided into racial groups), in 2012. Can't we all just be people?

 

I can buy into this. The objective is to close the gaps and increase achievement. Teachers should be rewarded on closing gaps. When you thrown race in there, it just comes with hundreds of years of history and baggage.

[justasque]

...do you not think teachers, knowing less is expected of "brown-skinned" kids, are not going to spend more time and effort on lighter-skinned kids? Because that is where I see policies such as these going.

 

Teachers have to get more improvement from their darker-skinned kids than their lighter-skinned kids. So that is where their time and effort will likely lie. (Unless the district finds a way to kick out these kids, encourage them to homeschool or enroll in charters, or get them to be coincidentally absent on test day, of course.)

 

And what about all the Black and Hispanic kids? How are they going to feel, knowing a school district doesn't think they are up to par with the white kids? How are these separate, race-based standards going to affect and entire generation of minority kids? Will they grow up thinking they are "less than"?

 

The standard for the kids - the pass rate - is the same for everyone.

 

However, if you live in Palm Beach County, you do not need anyone else to tell you about racial differences. They are pretty obvious to everyone, every day. The kids are not unaware of the current, significant, differences in academic achievement.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Let's not resort to personal attacks here:). Questioning someone's common sense is not a valid way to argue your point. I can see where you are coming from. I just do not feel the same way. I respect our differences, and I am learning a lot in this discussion. Personal attacks cheapen the seriousness of this issue.

 

I stand by my statement. If you believe a plan that focusing on improving performance for groups with lower proficiency somehow encourages teachers to ignore students in those groups, then you lack common sense.

 

I can buy into this. The objective is to close the gaps and increase achievement. Teachers should be rewarded on closing gaps. When you thrown race in there, it just comes with hundreds of years of history and baggage.

 

Wait. The plan you have vehemently bashed throughout this thread does exactly what you say you can buy into.

[Snickerdoodle]

nm

Edited October 15, 2012 by Snickerdoodle

[GWOB]

I stand by my statement. If you believe a plan that focusing on improving performance for groups with lower proficiency somehow encourages teachers to ignore students in those groups, then you lack common sense.

 

 

 

Wait. The plan you have vehemently bashed throughout this thread does exactly what you say you can buy into.

 

And yet, the poster who proposed this plan said nothing about different improvement standards for different races. In fact, she said something to the effect of "Can't we all just be people?" Why can't we just reward teachers for general improvement and leave race out of the equation? I want my kids to look at a person and see "the content of their character, not the color of their skin." (That's a rough paraphrase of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., btw) That's the world I want my kids to live in. I don't want a school board, state, or country telling my kids that people's intellect is based on skin color. I want them to believe the words "That all men are created equal. That they are endowed by by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." I hardly think that by believing in these words I am exhibiting a "lack of common sense."

[justasque]

I wonder exactly how do they propose to close this achievement gap and what metrics (new?) they will use to measure it. Does it mention it in the article?

 

FCAT scores are the metric. The numbers are the percentages of kids in the given group who score proficient on the FCAT. The article didn't mention specific strategies.

 

An example - some of the black kids in PB Co are Haitian immigrants. So they may look at ESL programs in the district to see if Creole/French speaking kids have the resources they need. Some of the Hispanic immigrant kids are from Brazil and speak Portuguese (not Spanish!), so again looking at ESL might be in order. I think the idea is that by looking at all kinds of demographics - scores not only by race but also by income, disability, etc. etc. - they can better target what strategies and resources might be needed.

[justasque]

And yet, the poster who proposed this plan said nothing about different improvement standards for different races. In fact, she said something to the effect of "Can't we all just be people?"

 

I'm confused. The school district is proposing to focus on improving performance gaps by bringing up *all* groups' performances. They want to close the gaps by taking the lower-performing groups and putting them on a faster track to improvement.

 

One group is starting at a 69% pass rate, and the district wants them to improve to a 88% pass rate - 19% more kids passing. Another group is starting at a 38% pass rate, and the district wants them to improve to a 74% pass rate - 36% more kids passing. The lower group has farther to go to get to the point where both groups have the same pass rate, so the lower group will be moving faster, to close the gap. The 88% and 74% are interim goals - ultimately the district, and NCLB, wants the lower group to catch up with the higher group, and the district has set the interim goals with that in mind.

 

...Why can't we just reward teachers for general improvement and leave race out of the equation? ...

 

If we look only at "general improvement", we're not considering that the lower group needs significantly more improvement than the higher group, and that, for whatever historical reasons, may have different needs/challenges than the higher group. If their needs were the same, then there would be no gap. Measuring the gap helps us to see whether there is in fact a gap, and if so how much of one. Recognizing that a gap exists is the first step to figuring out how to close the gap. PB Co. has a HUGE gap.

 

Pretending that there are no differences just doesn't work in a community like PB Co. where there are in fact significant, measurable differences of this magnitude. (Not every community has these differences. Not every community needs these strategies.)

Edited October 15, 2012 by askPauline

[GWOB]

I'm confused. The school district is proposing to focus on improving performance gaps by bringing up *all* groups' performances. They want to close the gaps by taking the lower-performing groups and putting them on a faster track to improvement.

 

One group is starting at a 69% pass rate, and the district wants them to improve to a 88% pass rate - 19% more kids passing. Another group is starting at a 38% pass rate, and the district wants them to improve to a 74% pass rate - 36% more kids passing. They've got farther to go to get to the point where both groups have the same pass rate, but the lower group will be moving faster, to close the gap. The 88% and 74% are interim goals - ultimately the district, and NCLB, wants the lower group to catch up with the higher group, and the district has set the interim goals with that in mind.

 

 

 

If we look only at "general improvement", we're not considering that the lower group needs significantly more improvement than the higher group, and that, for whatever historical reasons, may have different needs than the higher group. If their needs were the same, then there would be no gap. Recognizing that a gap exists is the first step to figuring out how to close the gap.

 

Pretending that there are no differences just doesn't work in a community like PB Co. where there are in fact significant, measurable differences of this magnitude. (Not every community has these differences. Not every community needs these strategies.)

 

I get what you are saying. I really do. I just cannot get over the race thing. I acknowledge it may be a character fault, and I reserve my right to be completely wrong on this issue.

 

Of course, we can flip my argument on its head and say "Why aren't the white kids supposed to improve as much as the minority kids?" In my humble, less-than-genius opinion, the problem occurs when you throw race into the equation. And again, these policies are treating symptoms, not causes. Let's get to the root of the problem. Let's address the different incarceration rates between Blacks and Whites. Let's address the limited opportunities for minorities. Let's address pathetic funding for schools located in minority neighborhoods. Let's be real about the hardships minorities. Let's take an honest look at potential racial bias in standardized tests. Perhaps that is really my "beef" with this subject. You can treat a symptom, but unless you get to the core of the problem, you will accomplish nothing.

[PhotoGal]

Here's the thing. They could close the score gap without basing it on race. They could say, we want the bottom 25% of scorers from the past year to raise their scores by x% over the next x years.

 

Also note that the gap is really an economic gap, not a race gap. Identifying scores by where an individual's ancestors come from makes no sense. If there are specific communities that are struggling, they need to work with those communities to improve scores. If a school is low scoring, efforts should be focused on those schools.

[teamturner]

A separate standard would be that you, as an individual student, pass/meet the standard with a lower score based on race, gender, eye color, address or if you know the superintendent. This is a business/district goal to see progress towards district wide goal of increasing the number of students meeting the standards. It is not a discrepancy by student but a metric of how well the district addresses the issue. Basically ALL districts have a gap. It will not get better by ignoring it or not bothering to take the stats at all. If the gap widens or narrows that can illuminate what is going on and mean they need to either do something else or know (if it lessens) that they are making progress on a worthy goal. They are not lowering the bar for any students. Right now the numbers are gosh darn awful. How would you propose they improve outcomes for all students and narrow the long existing achievement gap without noting that it exists? How would you write the plan? Lump all kids together and set a goal that does not look at the numbers by race at all?

 

:iagree: The bolded part is what it all comes down to.

 

For those who are still thinking the standards are different based on race, look at it this way:

 

Out of 100 black kids 38 can read proficiently. The goal is to increase that number to 74 children. With whites, out of 100 only 69 read proficiently and they want to increase that number to 86. So the teachers of these 200 students have to make sure an additional 36 black students and 17 white students can also read proficiently by 2018. And don't forget the 27 additional Hispanic students that need to be reading proficiently also.

Who is going to get more of the focus in the classrooms in this scenario? The test for reading proficiency is the same for all students, correct? So the standards are the same for ALL students.

 

The bigger question should be HOW are they going to make this happen? What is the strategy? These numbers and race goals are just numbers in a plan. If we are opposed to looking at it by race, what would be a better way? By zip code? There has to be some way to identify the masses of children not reading proficiently so the problem can be corrected somehow.

 

I don't see how some are interpreting this as different educational standards. :confused: What should be shocking and upsetting is that so many children are not reading proficiently!

[justasque]

I get what you are saying. I really do. I just cannot get over the race thing. I acknowledge it may be a character fault, and I reserve my right to be completely wrong on this issue.

 

This is complicated stuff. You're thinking, and listening, and thinking some more. That's a good thing.

 

Of course, we can flip my argument on its head and say "Why aren't the white kids supposed to improve as much as the minority kids?"

 

All of the kids are eventually supposed to be at a 100% pass rate, as I understand NCLB - the ultimate goal is the same for all kids; some just have a lot farther to go, thus the disparate interim goals.

 

In my humble, less-than-genius opinion, the problem occurs when you throw race into the equation.

 

Race is already in the equation in PB Co. Pretending all the kids are doing equally well doesn't help. They're not. There is a significant race gap.

Understanding the makeup of the underachieving group in terms of all kinds of metrics - income level, ESL status, disability, etc. - will help the district to recognize barriers and create solutions. In some areas race isn't an issue. In PB Co, it is.

 

And again, these policies are treating symptoms, not causes. Let's get to the root of the problem. Let's address the different incarceration rates between Blacks and Whites. Let's address the limited opportunities for minorities. Let's address pathetic funding for schools located in minority neighborhoods. Let's be real about the hardships minorities. Let's take an honest look at potential racial bias in standardized tests. Perhaps that is really my "beef" with this subject. You can treat a symptom, but unless you get to the core of the problem, you will accomplish nothing.

 

I think the school district is just trying to do the piece they're responsible for - the education part - and to do it within the confines/requirements of NCLB.

 

Yes, there are other things that need to be addressed. And yes, it's a complex system where various factors (economics, education, crime, etc. etc.) all affect each other - no one of them stands alone and no one organization can fix the problems alone. They are all intertwined.

 

But the school district, I would hope, should at least try to do what they can with their piece of the puzzle. It does at first seem strange to see different expected pass rates for different races. But when you look closer, it's a much more complicated situation. The district is recognizing that it has a race gap, and is setting ambitious goals for its under-performing minorities in an effort to close the gap and bring up the performance of all their students. We all wish the gap wasn't there in the first place. But since it is, at least they're trying to deal with it.

[abacus2]

Here's the thing. They could close the score gap without basing it on race. They could say, we want the bottom 25% of scorers from the past year to raise their scores by x% over the next x years.

 

Also note that the gap is really an economic gap, not a race gap. Identifying scores by where an individual's ancestors come from makes no sense. If there are specific communities that are struggling, they need to work with those communities to improve scores. If a school is low scoring, efforts should be focused on those schools.

 

:iagree:

 

Race is neither the cause nor the solution to the problem at hand. It should not be measured that way, especially because racist attitudes and actions within the education system are a cause.

[GWOB]

This is complicated stuff. You're thinking, and listening, and thinking some more. That's a good thing.

 

 

 

All of the kids are eventually supposed to be at a 100% pass rate, as I understand NCLB - the ultimate goal is the same for all kids; some just have a lot farther to go, thus the disparate interim goals.

 

 

 

Race is already in the equation in PB Co. Pretending all the kids are doing equally well doesn't help. They're not. There is a significant race gap.

Understanding the makeup of the underachieving group in terms of all kinds of metrics - income level, ESL status, disability, etc. - will help the district to recognize barriers and create solutions. In some areas race isn't an issue. In PB Co, it is.

 

 

 

I think the school district is just trying to do the piece they're responsible for - the education part - and to do it within the confines/requirements of NCLB.

 

Yes, there are other things that need to be addressed. And yes, it's a complex system where various factors (economics, education, crime, etc. etc.) all affect each other - no one of them stands alone and no one organization can fix the problems alone. They are all intertwined.

 

But the school district, I would hope, should at least try to do what they can with their piece of the puzzle. It does at first seem strange to see different expected pass rates for different races. But when you look closer, it's a much more complicated situation. The district is recognizing that it has a race gap, and is setting ambitious goals for its under-performing minorities in an effort to close the gap and bring up the performance of all their students. We all wish the gap wasn't there in the first place. But since it is, at least they're trying to deal with it.

 

I am to dumb/tired to figure out how to parse your quote:tongue_smilie:.

 

From what I gathered from the linked article in the original post, this was not a PB county thing. This policy was passed by the Florida State Board of Education. (Please correct me if I am wrong.) So the whole state of Florida is saying Asian kids are the smartest kids, followed by White kids, Hispanic kids, and finally Black kids?

 

I can *kinda* see the spirit of the policy, which aims to close achievement gaps, but the letter of the policy of a whole entire state just rubs me the wrong way.

 

And I do give them credit for acknowledging and trying to bridge achievement gaps. And I acknowledge that the Florida Board of Education can only do so much. But I do not trust Kathleen Shanahan, head of the Florida BOE, a person with absolutely no education background, to make decisions such as these. This seems political to me.

[TranquilMind]

I am in Florida and I'm just shocked and without words...

 

http://tampa.cbslocal.com/2012/10/12/florida-passes-plan-for-racially-based-academic-goals/

The comments were fascinating.

 

Yes, I've been hearing about a swing back this direction. The U.S. Supreme Court just heard the case of Abigail Fisher v. University of Texas, which denied her application because she was white over less qualified minority students. So the question remains "Is affirmative action still valid and necessary today?" Also is Affirmative Action racist in itself? I guess we will see what the Court says.

[kalanamak]

It is not separate standards. It is not different standards. It's a goal to narrow the achievement gap that persists because of the legacy of generational poverty and lasting impacts of racism which have persisted long after Brown.

 

One would have thought they'd have at least tried a more palatable spin, e.g. "halving the illiteracy rate" in each group.

[Carrie12345]

I'm not familiar with the geographical demographics in FL or VA, but I have to wonder how this impacts areas/districts where there is a good deal of WHITE poverty.

[Parrothead]

But Pauline, we've now heard of Florida, Virginia, and California officially turning to these policies. And we know schools are failing all over the country, so it's not as if all the "bad" schools are in those three places. It's all over the country. But none of this justifies raising kids with different expectations for different races.

You've hit the nail on the head with this. The expectations need to come from home. The family structure and the culture of the community needs a total shake up.

 

Truly the schools expect more from the Asian students because the Asian family (Tiger Mom anyone) and community expect more from the Asian student. That expectation just does not exist in most of the Black and Hispanic families and communities.

 

That is not the school's fault. This particular school wants to raise the number of black kids who read on grade level from 38 to 74%. It doesn't want to only educate 74% of the black students.

[Parrothead]

:iagree: How about I just follow you around this thread and agree with everything you say.

 

Chocolate Reign, we acknowledge the achievement gap. Many of us just think we should treat the actual problems (reduced opportunities, poor educational institutions in lower socioeconomic neighborhoods,etc.) rather than the symptoms (poor test performance).

The actual problems start in the homes and culture of these students. Much more than the education of the children needs to happen.

[Parrothead]

I'm hormonal, my dh is working nights for the next 2 months, and I am all hopped up on Sudafed. Do NOT get me started on NCLB!:tongue_smilie::lol:

 

 

 

You know, I can maybe respect that these people were trying to implement a plan to reduce the achievement gap. However, the ramifications of telling an entire race of people "We expect less of you because of the color of your skin" sticks in my craw like a public school cupcake party. (Pathetically trying to diffuse tensions with an inappropriate WTM joke)

Unfortunately it isn't they are saying we expect less of you because of the color of your skin but "we expect less of you because we know that your family and community do not expect you to live up to your potential. We understand how very difficult it is to overcome that type of pressure to not improve your lot in life. Yes, we would love if every child regardless of race would score 100% on every test, but we know that is not realistic."

[Kimber]

This leaves me almost speechless.