AP really equal college intro?

[Nscribe]

We have not tackled the AP question yet, but will likely opt to do about 4 exams along the way. As I was looking over the College Board course sites and reading forums a question came to me. If AP courses are so rigorous as to equate to a 100 level/intro college course, what does that say about high school teachers who teach the course in comparison with their higher paid/more credentialed college counterparts? Just how rigorous are these exams/courses really?

[elizabeth]

AP exams are tough and the courses might well be taught by those not qualified to teach them but many parents/students do not care about the test scores as they should. Taking the class is one thing doing well on the exam is entirely another matter. The SAT subject tests are so easy it is shameful that the Ivies use them instead of AP test scores. I leave you to draw your own conclusions as to the purpose behind that...I say legacy admissions and some none too bright candidates who text and can no longer write or spell worth a darn. Just my 2 cents. I did take Latin, Biology, World History and Composition SAT subject practice tests. I missed 3 while gorked on pain meds for knee replacement surgery. A potato can score well on SAT subject tests. Not so on AP. You have to write quickly, legibly and succinctly as well as answer very difficult multiple choice questions. The students who have a great instructor will fare well on AP exams and those that do not will fail to pass.

[FaithManor]

I really think it depends on each course/exam and the purpose.

 

Yes, the AP biology will cover a standard intro to bio course from most uni's for NON majors. Many, many colleges now break down their Gen Ed courses by major. Even "college writing" may not be the same depending on your major. This is one reason being undeclared is dangerous. The student could take college writing, intro to chemistry, and whatever else, then declare a major and find out that his gen eds are no longer the required prerequisite to X in his major. This is particularly true of STEM majors. At MSU, the pre-vet, pre-med students are housed together and get all of their gen ed requirements together. When everyone else is writing a persuasive essay in college writing class, they are practicing research writing, lab note keeping, writing for periodicals, etc. and yet their class is "College Writing"...the difference is "College Writing for Science Majors" vs. say, history majors.

 

Creekland's son, at U of R, is taking their lowest level bio class. He studied both Apologia Biology and Campbell's AP book. He's well prepared to be successful in his Intro to Bio class, however, the AP bio course was NOT a replacement for their freshman bio class. That's how steep that class is and it's because it is a research facility. However, head to say Michigan State University and do not declare a science major, and yes, the AP is most certainly on par with the course content, scope, and sequence of their gen ed freshman bio class for their humanities majors. Michigan State is a tier 1 school. I would probably not choose tier 2/regional uni's for comparison since they tend to be much less selective at admission's time which means more remedial offerings.

 

The AP Computer Science course is heady and the exam as well. It is comparable to the first exam level for JAVA certification for computer programmers. Ds is studying this course now and will attempt the exam. It is not a common one for high schoolers to attempt and we will have a three hour drive to a prep school in order to have a proctor. He will then be able to study for his Java certification which will be a HUGE leg up to him going into college as a freshman Computer Software Engineering major.

 

I waffle about physics. I really do. I am all about chemistry and it's been a gazillion years since I've really studied physics. I never even helped dd. She studied for and took the AP physics exam without so much as asking a single question of DH and I. I took a practice exam and some 28 years post 100 level college physics class and not having reviewed the material nor taught it recently, passed with flying colors. But, maybe I remember more than I give myself credit for or maybe it isn't that tough.

 

Calc AB - either you can do the math or you can't. It tests for the content and ability so I think that exam kind of stands for itself.

 

However, this will be our first year to take advantage of some of the humanities offerings. Our eldest boy is going to sit the U.S. History exam and next year, the World History. I will try to remember to post our thoughts on those when the time comes.

 

Faith

[Nscribe]

A potato can score well on SAT subject tests.

 

:lol: I had visions of Mr./Mrs. Potato Heads with mortar board caps and gown. Aren't the SAT subject test suppose to test high school level competency? I assumed they were designed for some sort of baseline to give some equivalency standard between what can be very diverse high school quality.

If AP courses are so rigorous as to equate to a 100 level/intro college course, what does that say about high school teachers who teach the course in comparison with their higher paid/more credentialed college counterparts? Just how rigorous are these exams/courses really?

 

I think it is really, really hard to make accurate generalizations. Some 100 level college classes are taught by full professors who are passionate about their subject, world-renowned researchers and wonderful teachers. Other 100 level classes, perhaps at the same institution, might be taught by a TA who barely speaks English, and just finished her Bachelor's degree a few months earlier.

[Nscribe]

I really think it depends on each course/exam and the purpose.

 

Yes, the AP biology will cover a standard intro to bio course from most uni's for NON majors.

 

...

 

I will try to remember to post our thoughts on those when the time comes.

 

Faith

 

TY for the response, especially the detailed impressions re: Biology, Comp Sci, Physics and Calc. I had not thought about the major/non major distinctions, but that makes a great deal of sense.

 

In our area it will be a grueling adventure to find a school that will allow Dd to sit for the exams. I will confess, I wince at any dealings with our local school system at this point, but am really dreading going hat in hand to seek a testing opportunity for Dd.

 

We are not at all interested in gaining college credit for AP, it would really be about validating quality of what we do. Dd has zero chance of need based aid, thus it really is about admission thresholds.

 

How many exams did your children take in a given year?

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

 

The AP Computer Science course is heady and the exam as well. It is comparable to the first exam level for JAVA certification for computer programmers. Ds is studying this course now and will attempt the exam. It is not a common one for high schoolers to attempt

 

Faith

 

Really? My son is attempting that one this year, in grade 10. I wasn't worried about it, maybe I should be?

 

We're a family of software engineers, and DS has been coding since the age of 12. He's taking the class through PA Homeschoolers.

 

It looks to me that many teens would be interested in taking the computer programming class. Or is it just the people I hang with?

[regentrude]

I waffle about physics. I really do. I am all about chemistry and it's been a gazillion years since I've really studied physics. I never even helped dd. She studied for and took the AP physics exam without so much as asking a single question of DH and I. I took a practice exam and some 28 years post 100 level college physics class and not having reviewed the material nor taught it recently, passed with flying colors. But, maybe I remember more than I give myself credit for or maybe it isn't that tough.

 

Which one? There are two AP Physics tests, B and C. AP Physics B is algebra based and may be equivalent to an intro physics course for life science majors at certain schools. AP Phyiscs C is calulus based and more comparable to the course physics and engineering majors are required to take at the university.

 

I have had students in my intro classes who had taken an AP C course and not done well enough on the exam to test out; some knew basically everything, some had a lot to learn.

 

I have a hard time comparing the material on one specific test to the content of a year of class; classes can have very different focus and weighting.

[Nscribe]

Other 100 level classes, perhaps at the same institution, might be taught by a TA who barely speaks English, and just finished her Bachelor's degree a few months earlier.

 

The thing is that TA finished her Bachelor's in a content area relevant to the subject matter. Locally high schools would not hire a PhD in the content area, if he/she did not also have teacher's certification. However, they would allow a certified teacher without a content specific degree teach. That has always bugged me and I even took a look at the Praxis materials to see if I was being fair in my concern.

[regentrude]

. If AP courses are so rigorous as to equate to a 100 level/intro college course, what does that say about high school teachers who teach the course in comparison with their higher paid/more credentialed college counterparts? Just how rigorous are these exams/courses really?

 

It says that a good high school teacher should be capable of teaching an introductory college course - something I would expect (unfortunately, many high school teachers would not be capable, which is sad). College professors do not get their credentials because they can teach Physics 101; they get their credentials for original research and the ability to teach a 400 level class.

 

AP Calulus AB compares quite well to a one semester calculus 1 course at our STEM university. AP Calc BC would correspond to two semesters, calc 1 and calc 2. The text we use would work well for an AP calc syllabus and be in line with teh requirements.

[FaithManor]

Really? My son is attempting that one this year, in grade 10. I wasn't worried about it, maybe I should be?

 

We're a family of software engineers, and DS has been coding since the age of 12. He's taking the class through PA Homeschoolers.

 

It looks to me that many teens would be interested in taking the computer programming class. Or is it just the people I hang with?

 

I think you'll be fine. The exam is tougher on the kids who do not have a programming parent at home, do not have a true programmer as a teacher - very, very common for American high schools - and for those that came to programming late. Our ds is only a 10th grader as well. He has experience that many do not have just like your son.

 

And yes, it is the people you hang with! How can I put this....an awful lot of kids like to play computer games and really just think it's a walk in the park to program. They have NO clue they are learning a language. Maybe, just maybe, they've dabbled with basic or something, but certainly not anything like Java. Once confronted with the reality that A. it's algebra based and B. it's a language and C. you are going to really have to study it and then D. you'll be asked to find the errors in code, or create a business solution, then E. the bloom is OFF the rose, so to speak.

 

In our area, computer science classes for high schoolers are usually end user based software - How to use Microsoft Publisher, Word for Windows, Excel, make a spreadsheet, etc. stuff that kids how have been around computer for years. I'm really rather appalled at what passes for "computer science" classes.

 

That said, it's not offered anywhere at any high school within 100 miles of here. Schools require teacher certification in order to teach the class and there are very few computer science majors that go into teacher ed. The administrators are convinced that an IBM or Hewlett Packerd Software Engineer could not possibly be qualified to teach a class without a secondary ed teaching license. Hence, no qualified experts available to help these kids.

 

So, it's heady for MOST kids because they have no idea what it means to code. However, I think your son and my son will be fine. They have computer programmers teaching them the material! (DH is just about giddy over this. :D)

 

Faith

[In The Great White North]

A potato can score well on SAT subject tests. Not so on AP.

 

Are there stats for this? I've heard repeatedly that students often take the AP test in May, then the subject test in June - meaning that a large number of students with "college level coursework) are taking the subject tests and skewing the curve. (And it is scored on a curve.) What exactly is "score well" on the subject tests? Does a 5 on an AP test equate to an 800 on a subject test? A 750? a 700?

 

The AP Computer Science course is heady and the exam as well. It is comparable to the first exam level for JAVA certification for computer programmers.

 

Ds looked into it and decided it wasn't worth taking - something about colleges not accepting it because they all taught somewhat different things in their basic computer science courses?? Or maybe it was just his school? I don't remember the details. Turns out his college had their own test to place out of freshman computer science though, and he passed that (for free.)

 

The thing is that TA finished her Bachelor's in a content area relevant to the subject matter. Locally high schools would not hire a PhD in the content area, if he/she did not also have teacher's certification. However, they would allow a certified teacher without a content specific degree teach.

 

I think the bolded part ended with NCLB. And certification rules don't apply to most private schools.

I really think it depends on each course/exam and the purpose.

Faith

 

I totally agree with the above. I would also point out that the foreign language AP classes are roughly equivalent to 4th semester college classes, which always struck me as a bit unfair, compared to all (?) the other AP classes, which roughly correspond to first semester college classes.

[creekland]

I think the bolded part ended with NCLB.

 

If it did, it didn't with our school. We have teachers with education degrees corresponding to the grade they teach, and usually, the subject they teach, but a "science teacher" degree is not equal to a physics degree with a certificate later. Most colleges (perhaps all?) require a degree (usually advanced degree) IN THE FIELD and could care less about a teaching certificate.

 

Regarding AP vs college level (or DE vs college level), I fully agree it depends upon the major and the college one is going to attend. Generally the college is the one to check with. If they recommend skipping, the class is generally the same. If they recommend retaking (or require it), then the classes are generally different enough to matter.

 

That said... oldest told me his DE English class was far easier than his 4 year counterpart, but he's not majoring in English so was happy getting credit for the "easier" class. Had he been majoring in it I'm not sure his college would have allowed credit. (I'll never really know.)

 

Anyone heading pre-med should realize that med schools often don't want to see Bio or Chem skipped in favor of AP credits. One would need to take more advanced Bio/Chem classes to erase that nick, and even then, some supposedly still consider it a nick. You may, however, still want the AP scores to get accepted into higher level colleges. You'll definitely want AP level content to have your best chance at doing well in these classes at college. Even if it gets your student an easy A, for med school, an easy A is good!

 

As was mentioned before... one can look at my recent "Bio" thread to see one example of the differences my middle son has experienced.

[Jane in NC]

The thing is that TA finished her Bachelor's in a content area relevant to the subject matter. Locally high schools would not hire a PhD in the content area, if he/she did not also have teacher's certification. However, they would allow a certified teacher without a content specific degree teach. That has always bugged me and I even took a look at the Praxis materials to see if I was being fair in my concern.

 

In agreement with you, Nscribe.

 

The concern you raise is perhaps one of the reasons that the College Board now requires AP instructors to submit a syllabus, etc. for each course. This audit gives a thumbs up to an instructor's plan and is not a general approval to the high school itself. Thus if a different teacher were to teach AP Calc AB the following year, the new teacher would submit his materials to the College Board.

 

I am not suggesting that this system erases your concern. For example, a student whom I was tutoring a couple of years ago had a Math teacher who just did not understand Calculus beyond the algorithms. Admittedly, the AP Calc exams are algorithm based so this would not doom her, but the teacher could not explain alternate methods of problem solving. This is where having some expertise in the field is clearly beneficial.

 

Regarding whether AP is comparable to the typical 100 level college class, I echo Faith's comments. It depends. My son is a student at an LAC where almost all courses are taught by PhDs--no TAs. It is a writing intensive school but students do not take English Comp 101. All first years take a writing intensive seminar in a discipline of their choice. My son's first year writing seminar was in the music department! He is now taking a writing intensive paleontology course. Having AP English credit does not override the requirement that students participate in these writing intensive courses. The point of this path is ultimately a thesis which all students write for graduation. AP English does not prepare students for the level of research writing that is required at his LAC. Nor did the English Composition course that my son took at our local community college.

 

Shrug. Schools are different and programs within schools are different. At least as home schoolers we can devise an individual plan for our kids that suits their goals.

[Nscribe]

You may, however, still want the AP scores to get accepted into higher level colleges. You'll definitely want AP level content to have your best chance at doing well in these classes at college. Even if it gets your student an easy A, for med school, an easy A is good!

 

As was mentioned before... one can look at my recent "Bio" thread to see one example of the differences my middle son has experienced.

 

I have enjoyed following the Bio thread.

 

An easy A or two for the early college experience would actually be a big motivator. The adjustments and changes associated with the transitions to college present challenge enough, an early positive academic experience would have to be a plus to paving the way.

[Nscribe]

... It depends. My son is a student at an LAC where almost all courses are taught by PhDs--no TAs. It is a writing intensive school but students do not take English Comp 101. All first years take a writing intensive seminar in a discipline of their choice.

 

Shrug. Schools are different and programs within schools are different. At least as home schoolers we can devise an individual plan for our kids that suits their goals.

 

I am gathering a trend of many colleges requiring some sort of early writing course (seminar seems to be the popular title) of all students. Would your college search experience confirm that observation?

 

I don't want to come down too hard on out of field instructors because I have experienced enough to see enthusiasm go a long way to opening doors. If I had to sport full credentials for each content area we will engage, I couldn't. It does bug me to see PhD's who might be willing to teach in their content areas be told they must spend a couple of years becoming certified when I simultaneously hear about shortages in qualified math or science teachers.

[creekland]

I am gathering a trend of many colleges requiring some sort of early writing course (seminar seems to be the popular title) of all students. Would your college search experience confirm that observation?

 

 

This is required at U Rochester. It's the only required course of all students, but there are several different offerings to choose from (something like 45 options).

 

I think colleges have noticed that even top students have less experience writing quality work.

[flyingiguana]

My experience has been that anyone can teach a good intro level college course if they have some background in the field (ie -- a bachelor's degree) and if they have the passion to teach well. It really helps if they have taught the course a few times, too.

 

I've seen TA's do a really great job with teaching intro bio. (Actually, I've seen them do a great job with grad level classes when the professor decided to go off and take an extended vacation during the semester.) I've also seen TA's do a terrible job -- but I've seen that in professors too.

 

A lot of it is motivation. But a lot of it is also experience teaching. The first year teaching a course is often a disaster. Doesn't matter what background the teacher/professor has. After a couple times through the course, if the teacher hasn't burned out, that's when the course gets good.

 

But then, I've seen a number of college courses taught by professors with Ph.D's and years of experience in teaching that were just awful. Basically, the professor didn't care.

 

So I think a high school teacher *could* teach an AP course effectively. However, I've also seen a lot of high school teachers do a terrible job at it. Some teachers are really enthusiastic and want their students to do well. And some of those teachers actually know how to pull it off (which is different from knowing the subject matter.) But then there are schools that tend to give the "plum" jobs to teachers who have been there awhile and think they deserve a cushy job with students who are less likely to make trouble - and those teachers really aren't interested in doing a real course. A lot of the kids in those classes may be motivated to do well, so they may spend the time with the prep books and surfing online for materials that good teachers put up, so those kids may do well. But the rest of the class won't (and they may be happy to have the crummy teacher to blame for it).

 

The short answer is - it depends.

[Nscribe]

On a more general note, did you find the College Board course info to be a solid guide to scope for the various AP's your kids took?

[creekland]

On a more general note, did you find the College Board course info to be a solid guide to scope for the various AP's your kids took?

 

I'll admit to not really looking at it. I got info on books to use for texts and preps both on here and on college confidential. We did not call any of our courses AP. We simply used the same materials, and in some cases, took the tests in May.

[FaithManor]

I'll admit to not really looking at it. I got info on books to use for texts and preps both on here and on college confidential. We did not call any of our courses AP. We simply used the same materials, and in some cases, took the tests in May.

 

 

That is exactly what we did. It wasn't worth the hoop jumping to get my course syllabus approved as AP. The "proof in the pudding" would be when dd sat the exams. There is no requirement that you must successfully complete an AP approved course to take an AP exam. Colleges are not impressed when students have "X, AP Course" on their transcripts and then did not test. So we had no intention of doing that either.

 

Sometimes dd took the exam, sometimes not. The transcript read Chemistry, Advanced Chemistry, Chemistry AP exam score - _____. Same for physics. Ds's will read U.S. History - grade, AP exam score - _______, World History - grade, AP exam score - ______, Java Programming I, AP Computer Science AB exam score - _________. Of course, official results will be sent to each college to which ds applies.

 

However, maybe if I had taught a co-op class at an AP level, I might have found some reason to go through the work of having my course AP approved and labeling it as such. Hmm....not sure about that.

 

Faith

[creekland]

Of course, official results will be sent to each college to which ds applies.

 

Faith

 

We used a similar labeling system:

 

Psychology - AP score = ____

 

You do NOT need to send the score report to schools you apply to. They trust the applicants to self-report. If taking any APs senior year, simply have the one score report sent to the final choice school. If not taking any senior year, then have the scores sent to that one school. (ALL scores from all years are sent via the one report - even if taking just one test senior year.)

 

If you self-reported incorrectly, that can be grounds for denying the admission (students have to sign that all info is correct).

[LizzyBee]

AP Calulus AB compares quite well to a one semester calculus 1 course at our STEM university. AP Calc BC would correspond to two semesters, calc 1 and calc 2. The text we use would work well for an AP calc syllabus and be in line with teh requirements.

 

This is what we expected, but dd got a 5 on AP Calc AB and her college gave her 6 credits and placed her in Calc III. They said that a score of 3 or 4 is equivalent to Calc I and a score of 5 demonstrates mastery of Integrals which is what is taught in Calc II. I don't know whether that's common at other colleges, or if dd's college structures their Calc classes differently than most.

[regentrude]

This is what we expected, but dd got a 5 on AP Calc AB and her college gave her 6 credits and placed her in Calc III. They said that a score of 3 or 4 is equivalent to Calc I and a score of 5 demonstrates mastery of Integrals which is what is taught in Calc II. I don't know whether that's common at other colleges, or if dd's college structures their Calc classes differently than most.

 

I have seen similar recommendations, but it makes no sense to me, because normally calc 2 also covers things like Taylor series, and integration techniques such as integration by parts, by partial fractions, and by trig substitution - which are all not covered by AP Calc AB.

I would not accept such a placement for my student and insist on her being placed in calc 2- unless your sequence is really strange and they only get to these topics in calc 3.

This is basic knowledge that must be mastered, and a performance on AP Calc AB does not test this content at all.

 

ETA: Similar stuff happens when colleges give two semesters credit for physics for a 5 and one semester for a 3 or 4: the test tests material of both semesters, and placing a student in the second semester (e&m) makes no sense if the student has not mastered the first semester material - the AP physics B test does not distinguish.

[Nscribe]

One concern I have is about gap times in maths. It just seems to make things harder than they must be. On the other hand, I am not a huge fan of a huge math challenge in one's 1st semester at college. Thus, the idea of Dd taking AP Calc and then being placed in a Calc 3 or 4 in her first semester at college just makes me wince. In a perfect world, the AP would serve to demonstrate rigor of our program for acceptance purposes but not to place her into a challenge that may be a struggle in a first year of college adjustment. Just how much say does the student have in not being placed based on AP?

[regentrude]

One concern I have is about gap times in maths. It just seems to make things harder than they must be. On the other hand, I am not a huge fan of a huge math challenge in one's 1st semester at college. Thus, the idea of Dd taking AP Calc and then being placed in a Calc 3 or 4 in her first semester at college just makes me wince. In a perfect world, the AP would serve to demonstrate rigor of our program for acceptance purposes but not to place her into a challenge that may be a struggle in a first year of college adjustment. Just how much say does the student have in not being placed based on AP?

 

The stduent shouldtake to his advisor. From what I hear, many advisors would much prefer their students to take it slowly and start with teh calculus sequence than be placed advanced and struggle.

It has been my personal experience that math makes a lot more sense the second time around; even if the student has studied calculus in high school, a good college class will give deeper insights into the concepts and greatly enrich understanding, becasue the student would have her head free for these nuances instead of trying to barely grasp the basics.

 

My DD is taking calc this year; she completed calc 1 and has started calc 2 and will take the AP exam for validation purposes; however, if the school she wants to attend offers a good calculus course, we'd try to get her placed in clac 1 instead of skipping (now, if teh course has a bad reputation with heavy accented foreign TA's reading verbatim from the textbook, we'd be happy if she'd place out.)

 

I am not sure what gap times you are refering to?

[creekland]

One concern I have is about gap times in maths. It just seems to make things harder than they must be. On the other hand, I am not a huge fan of a huge math challenge in one's 1st semester at college. Thus, the idea of Dd taking AP Calc and then being placed in a Calc 3 or 4 in her first semester at college just makes me wince. In a perfect world, the AP would serve to demonstrate rigor of our program for acceptance purposes but not to place her into a challenge that may be a struggle in a first year of college adjustment. Just how much say does the student have in not being placed based on AP?

 

At some schools they have no say. At most they let the student decide. We opted to skip the Calc AP test to not have to worry about placement. Oldest ended up bored in an easy class and regretted my decision. Middle has an easy class and is happy with the decision.

 

There is no easy answer.

[Nscribe]

It has been my personal experience that math makes a lot more sense the second time around; even if the student has studied calculus in high school, a good college class will give deeper insights into the concepts and greatly enrich understanding, becasue the student would have her head free for these nuances instead of trying to barely grasp the basics.

 

...(now, if teh course has a bad reputation with heavy accented foreign TA's reading verbatim from the textbook, we'd be happy if she'd place out.)

 

I am not sure what gap times you are refering to?

 

I am 100% with you on the retaking for better comprehension and frankly just to get the swing of how things will work in the collegiate setting. Your parenthetical reminds me of my college Calc, which wound up not being taken until I had been out of high school for almost 2 years. That gap, plus the TA I could barely translate made for a very miserable experience. By "gap times" I am thinking of all the college kids I know who wind up their first year at college with no math, thus a long gap between their last daily encounters and high school and their first college math course.

[Nscribe]

At some schools they have no say. At most they let the student decide. We opted to skip the Calc AP test to not have to worry about placement. Oldest ended up bored in an easy class and regretted my decision. Middle has an easy class and is happy with the decision.

 

There is no easy answer.

 

Makes me wonder if just doing the SAT 2 Math would be wise to serve our purpose. Thinking aloud ....

[TranquilMind]

We have not tackled the AP question yet, but will likely opt to do about 4 exams along the way. As I was looking over the College Board course sites and reading forums a question came to me. If AP courses are so rigorous as to equate to a 100 level/intro college course, what does that say about high school teachers who teach the course in comparison with their higher paid/more credentialed college counterparts? Just how rigorous are these exams/courses really?

 

I think it all depends on the intellectual mettle of the teacher, really.

 

My oldest (16) is in several college courses right now, and all classes at her school are done at the college level. She doesn't find them all that hard at all. Some are challenging, some are not. Some of her APs were challenging at her last school; some were not.

 

My youngest (13) is in a high school level class for World History. It's a challenging course! He's having to really work, and it is only high school level.

[Joan in GE]

Doesn't it seem that AP courses get more graded work than a college course would normally?

[creekland]

Doesn't it seem that AP courses get more graded work than a college course would normally?

 

Not in MY AP courses as I just assigned the grade after we had the AP test score back... 5 = A, 4 = B, and so forth.

 

However, in high school situations, yes AP courses get more graded work than what happens in my boys 4 year college classes - though DE English at the cc was similar to AP in graded work.

[8filltheheart]

Doesn't it seem that AP courses get more graded work than a college course would normally?

 

I don't know. Ds's multi-var cal and physics courses have a lot of graded work. W/Lon Capa and textbook online software, etc, answers are simply typed in and automatically graded. He also has recitations weekly for both classes and they turn in class problems that are graded.

 

(this is far more feedback than AoPS. ;) )

[Joan in GE]

(this is far more feedback than AoPS. ;) )

Oh curious. I was getting the impression that if anyone got graded homework it was in math...You're saying that you don't correct the AoPS and they don't either?

 

But for the humanities? are they getting weekly graded work?

[8filltheheart]

Oh curious. I was getting the impression that if anyone got graded homework it was in math...You're saying that you don't correct the AoPS and they don't either?

 

But for the humanities? are they getting weekly graded work?

 

AoPS graded challenge sets every 4 weeks. His university class has 2 graded assignments/wk (one online and one from the recitation)

 

And, NO, I couldn't have graded his AoPS math if I had wanted to.:lol: Way over my head. He graded the textbook work himself.

[kiana]

This is what we expected, but dd got a 5 on AP Calc AB and her college gave her 6 credits and placed her in Calc III. They said that a score of 3 or 4 is equivalent to Calc I and a score of 5 demonstrates mastery of Integrals which is what is taught in Calc II. I don't know whether that's common at other colleges, or if dd's college structures their Calc classes differently than most.

 

She isn't on quarters, is she? Because Calc AB should be the first two quarters of a full-year calculus sequence (in other words, 2/3) and calc BC all 3 quarters. In that case it'd make sense to place into calc 3. ETA: Calc 3 meaning the third quarter.

Edited October 10, 2012 by kiana

[regentrude]

Doesn't it seem that AP courses get more graded work than a college course would normally?

 

not in math and science -at our university, math and physics courses assign weekly graded homework.

[regentrude]

Makes me wonder if just doing the SAT 2 Math would be wise to serve our purpose. Thinking aloud ....

 

The SAT 2 Math is very useful for admission purposes; it is required by several of the universities we checked out.

[MomsintheGarden]

I agree that math gaps can be difficult. My dd took the Calc BC exam at the end of 12th grade, got a 5, and placed out of Calc I & II. Part of her study plan for the BC exam was to go through Calc twice. She completed the Larson book from October-February, then a prep book from February-May. She was only going to be a biochem major, and, except for a calc-based stats class, she was done (and happy about it!).

 

Then in the fall of her sophomore year of college she decided to double major in math. She took Calc III in the spring of her sophomore year. She was a little fuzzy with some things, but did just fine. Things became more difficult for her in Differential Equations this semester because it had been three years since she took trig, and things had really faded. She had a wake up call when she got a low B on a homework set. She's been buckling down the past couple of weeks, reviewing trig with Kahn Academy videos, and her last homework set brought her class grade up to almost an A. She is considering this class to be a personal challenge, and by golly she's going to learn this stuff and get an A.

 

Overall I think she would agree that it has been to her benefit to place out of Calc I & II. She wouldn't have had room in her schedule for a math major otherwise - she has a scholarship for four years, and we would like for her to not go beyond that. Yes, she's had to deal with the math gap, but she is very motivated and it's coming back fairly easily. Part of the reason it is coming back is because she learned it well in the first place.

 

All this is to say what Creekland said -

There is no easy answer.

 

There really, really isn't. Some students do better if continually challenged. If they aren't always learning something new, they get bored, they don't work as hard, and they don't do as well. OTOH, other students prefer to have things go more slowly, need lots of review, and get overwhelmed easily. Of course there's everything in between!

 

GardenMom

[angela in ohio]

Some of the high school teachers at the local public school are qualified to teach intro level college courses. Several teach at the CC, in fact. They don't offer AP exams (not enough demand around here,) but they could do so well, I would think.

 

I am in school to get a degree to teach high school math and computer science. I will be one course away from a regular math degree and two courses away from a regular computer science degree (they sub out one or two courses for ones that are equal but more applicable.) Maybe that is just a Michigan thing, though. A Michigan HS teacher will have about the equivalent of a content area degree. The degrees for elementary ed are still sad, but at least the high school teachers are technically prepared. Still not a Ph.D. or anything, but I think they could get through an intro course.

Edited October 10, 2012 by angela in ohio

[LizzyBee]

I have seen similar recommendations, but it makes no sense to me, because normally calc 2 also covers things like Taylor series, and integration techniques such as integration by parts, by partial fractions, and by trig substitution - which are all not covered by AP Calc AB.

I would not accept such a placement for my student and insist on her being placed in calc 2- unless your sequence is really strange and they only get to these topics in calc 3.

This is basic knowledge that must be mastered, and a performance on AP Calc AB does not test this content at all.

 

ETA: Similar stuff happens when colleges give two semesters credit for physics for a 5 and one semester for a 3 or 4: the test tests material of both semesters, and placing a student in the second semester (e&m) makes no sense if the student has not mastered the first semester material - the AP physics B test does not distinguish.

 

I suggested she drop back to Calc 2 when it became obvious that Calc 3 was going to be very challenging for her, but she said that Calc 2 would be boring because she knows Integrals. I am going to send her your list of other topics that are usually taught in Calc 2 so that she can read those in the textbook if they're not on the syllabus for Calc 3. I wasn't really sure how much to insist on dropping back to Calc 2, because I was an accounting major and never had to take Calc. She's an engineering major, and I am no help at all in the math/science arena. Thank you for the information!

[LizzyBee]

She isn't on quarters, is she? Because Calc AB should be the first two quarters of a full-year calculus sequence (in other words, 2/3) and calc BC all 3 quarters. In that case it'd make sense to place into calc 3. ETA: Calc 3 meaning the third quarter.

 

No, her school uses regular semesters. She's at a NC state university, but I don't want to say which one on a public message board.

[regentrude]

I suggested she drop back to Calc 2 when it became obvious that Calc 3 was going to be very challenging for her, but she said that Calc 2 would be boring because she knows Integrals. I am going to send her your list of other topics that are usually taught in Calc 2 so that she can read those in the textbook if they're not on the syllabus for Calc 3. I wasn't really sure how much to insist on dropping back to Calc 2, because I was an accounting major and never had to take Calc. She's an engineering major, and I am no help at all in the math/science arena. Thank you for the information!

 

It may be her school uses a different breakdown of courses. I suggest that she looks at the textbook they use for calc 2 and sees if she indedd knows all the things that are covered.

Typically, calc 1 teaches the idea of integration and the integrals fo basic functions. In the Stewart text (6th ed), our calc 1 course covers chapters 1 through 6. Chapters 7 through 12(?) are calc 2; this includes all the more sophisticated integration techniques. Multivariable calculus is calc 3.

[LizzyBee]

It may be her school uses a different breakdown of courses. I suggest that she looks at the textbook they use for calc 2 and sees if she indedd knows all the things that are covered.

Typically, calc 1 teaches the idea of integration and the integrals fo basic functions. In the Stewart text (6th ed), our calc 1 course covers chapters 1 through 6. Chapters 7 through 12(?) are calc 2; this includes all the more sophisticated integration techniques. Multivariable calculus is calc 3.

 

This is the book they use. It's designed for a 3 semester or 4 quarter course. In Calc 3, they do chapters 11-16. I emailed dd your previous post and told her to look up the topics to see if they were covered prior to Calc 3; if they were, she should teach them to herself using the textbook and/or Khan Academy.

[Totmama]

Duplicate, sorry!

Edited October 11, 2012 by Totmama

[Totmama]

Remembering my AP and college experiences, yes, AP course are generally at least as rigorous as intro college classes. One difference is that you take an AP course over the full year, whereas college courses are generally by semester.

 

1000 -level college courses are often considered a joke, or for non majors. Most of my AP course credits placed me out of the first of three intro courses in a sequence, ie. general chemistry. You would take the three intro gen chem courses, them the intro organic chem series, then a couple other chem courses just for your chemistry requirement in a major of Biology, so non placing out of the first course added another semester to your college load.

 

Same with other long sequences, like math.

[thebacabunch]

I took honors and AP classes in high school. I am still working my way through college and I haven't had a class yet that was as challenging as some of my high school classes, lol. I covered more in my freshman year of highschool English than I covered in 4 college classes all put together. My freshman English class read more than I have read altogether in 3 years of college, for starters. I have to say, I have been very grateful for those highschool years because college is easier to handle.

[creekland]

Remembering my AP and college experiences, yes, AP course are generally at least as rigorous as intro college classes. One difference is that you take an AP course over the full year, whereas college courses are generally by semester.

 

1000 -level college courses are often considered a joke, or for non majors. Most of my AP course credits placed me out of the first of three intro courses in a sequence, ie. general chemistry. You would take the three intro gen chem courses, them the intro organic chem series, then a couple other chem courses just for your chemistry requirement in a major of Biology, so non placing out of the first course added another semester to your college load.

 

Same with other long sequences, like math.

 

I would be curious to know where you went to college. I know it is the way you describe at some schools (as per high school grads from where I work), but those have never been higher level schools. I'm wondering if the trend is the same outside our area (most kids here go within 3 hours of home).

 

I took honors and AP classes in high school. I am still working my way through college and I haven't had a class yet that was as challenging as some of my high school classes, lol. I covered more in my freshman year of highschool English than I covered in 4 college classes all put together. My freshman English class read more than I have read altogether in 3 years of college, for starters. I have to say, I have been very grateful for those highschool years because college is easier to handle.

 

Ditto the above question.

 

I went to a very good high school (eons ago) unlike the one where I work now and it prepared me super well for the first semester of college. After that, college had more challenging material, but again, this was eons ago (for one) and a decent to higher level school - Top 100 (for two). I feel pretty certain if I had attended one of the schools most local kids go to I might have a similar story to yours. The schools our kids mainly end up don't make the Top whatever rankings. I'd have been bored stiff at these schools academically.

 

BOTH paths grant degrees and are useful for getting jobs, etc. BUT, IME, there's definitely a difference in content so where one ought to try to go should depend upon what they are looking for.

 

The biggest fallacy out there is that College A = College B in content. Since many jobs where degrees are needed don't depend on in depth content, one can be successful from either place. Head to one employers you want to work for hire from. Where the job does matter one ought to pay more attention (and again, go where there have been people before you who were successful on the same path).

[kiana]

I suggested she drop back to Calc 2 when it became obvious that Calc 3 was going to be very challenging for her, but she said that Calc 2 would be boring because she knows Integrals. I am going to send her your list of other topics that are usually taught in Calc 2 so that she can read those in the textbook if they're not on the syllabus for Calc 3. I wasn't really sure how much to insist on dropping back to Calc 2, because I was an accounting major and never had to take Calc. She's an engineering major, and I am no help at all in the math/science arena. Thank you for the information!

 

Yes, there's something very strange going on here.

 

If she has not had a THOROUGH exposure to Taylor series (and Maclaurin series, which are a special case of the Taylor series), as well as multiple techniques of integration including trigonometric substitution, partial fractions, and integration by parts, differential equations (usually required for engineering majors) will be incredibly difficult and she'll need to do a lot of self-teaching. This material will also be required in many engineering classes. Placing her out of Calc II with Calc AB is crazy.

 

FWIW, at our university, for half of Calc II we do volumes of revolution and integration techniques, and then the entire second half of Calc II is sequences and series. This material is notoriously difficult.