Ellie Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 What did the churches which have big screens do prior to big screen days? Song books. Or no books at all, as songs which are sung often enough are memorized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosy Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 No, I would not allow my kids to stand on chairs. If they wanted to see the words, I would sit in an aisle seat or in the front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I wouldn't mind seeing a young child take off his shoes and stand on the chair to participate in worship. I much prefer that to the middle school aged kids who sit and play video games during the service. Well, that's true. In one service, a teen brought in his breakfast from McDonald's and proceeded to take it all out, unwrapping the sandwich, putting ketchup on the fries..the whole shebang, right while the minister was praying. I wanted to grab it and throw it away. And the smell..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 :iagree: It is a false dichotomy to say the only choices are sitting playing on the phone or standing on the pews. I'm not saying that. But if your kid is standing +/- 3' tall wedged between the adults' butts and staring at other butts (or at the back of a pew), unable to read well enough to participate that way, what is he really getting out of the service? FTR I would never let my child bring an electronic game to church (nor do I bring my phone in there). My kids are the only reason I'm going to church in the first place. I intend it to be something we experience together as a family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Is your child's heart really affected by whether or not they stand on a seat, though? We have always had our dc participate fully, and it has never required standing on furniture. :confused: I don't see a dichotomy of standing on a chair/pew or playing video games/not participating because of that, I guess. We do tend to go to more formal churches, though, so I think that affects our views. I've been in traditional, modern, informal, and very formal churches...and have seen this as the practice in all of them (allowing young children to stand on pews/chairs). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Well, that's true. In one service, a teen brought in his breakfast from McDonald's and proceeded to take it all out, unwrapping the sandwich, putting ketchup on the fries..the whole shebang, right while the minister was praying. I wanted to grab it and throw it away. And the smell..... Our church bulletin specifically asks people not to bring in food or drink. (It doesn't say anything about kids standing on pews, but does ask that people with young kids or other reasons to need to leave during church should sit near the back.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 "Chairs in church" -- what means "chairs in church"? Is outrage! :D :lol: Just kidding. We have chairs along the sides of the walls in our parish, if anyone wants to sit for a bit, but for the most part the entirety of our service is done standing. If a little (maybe 4-5 and under) wants to stand a bit higher to see over all the bigger people standing around him, we do allow it (we're right next to them and they can hardly be seen). They also have the freedom to walk around in front of our family group, too, to stand there. We are near the front of the room, so if they go up there they can see everything. We stand (with a little sitting) for almost 3 hours, so I'm fine with having a small child stand on a chair next to me so I can put my arm around him and help hold him up for awhile. I'm glad they're there and I'm glad they want to participate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMom Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 It is never ok to stand on chairs. What does it say about me if I admit that this makes we want to go stand on a chair right now?:tongue_smilie: This is the farthest I've gotten in the thread but, IMO, standing on the chair without shoes is fine for a little guy. I'm trying to teach my kids to follow along and participate in worship. We sit near the front so that my dh can give my 7yo the "evil eye" if he's misbehaving while dh is the presiding elder for the week. I require him to stand when everyone else is standing, recite the Lord's Prayer, follow along in the bulletin, sing the songs he knows, etc. I want him to know that it please God for him to be involved in the worship.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 "Chairs in church" -- what means "chairs in church"? Is outrage! :D :lol: Just kidding. We have chairs along the sides of the walls in our parish, if anyone wants to sit for a bit, but for the most part the entirety of our service is done standing. If a little (maybe 4-5 and under) wants to stand a bit higher to see over all the bigger people standing around him, we do allow it (we're right next to them and they can hardly be seen). They also have the freedom to walk around in front of our family group, too, to stand there. We are near the front of the room, so if they go up there they can see everything. We stand (with a little sitting) for almost 3 hours, so I'm fine with having a small child stand on a chair next to me so I can put my arm around him and help hold him up for awhile. I'm glad they're there and I'm glad they want to participate. :iagree::lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 During the time when everyone is standing I have no problem with a child standing on the chair/pew as long as they are looking forward like everyone else. If they are turned around, jumping, climbing etc I do not allow it. When everyone else is sitting, if the child is older than 18 months I expect them to be sitting (though we generally go to churches where the kids are not in service with the adults, it is only during special services I have to worry about it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 What did the churches which have big screens do prior to big screen days? We have attended three churches in our married life (I was Catholic before that - no screens there!, and dh didn't go to church.) Two have had screens and one didn't. In the churches with screens (including our current,) there were still hymnals. I use them for any songs I don't know, because I see double on the screens. It's kind of been a non-issue, though, because by the time a child is old enough to even read the screen, they probably will have memorized most of the songs anyway. And I'm thinking this through... by the time a child is old enough to read the screen, they are probably old enough to be way too tall to stand on the chairs/pew for the person behind them to see anyway, aren't they? Honestly, in those three churches, and a half dozen others I've visited, I've never seen a single child stand on the chairs/pews, other than maybe a 1 yo hanging on to mom's shoulder. Maybe it's regional? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 What does it say about me if I admit that this makes we want to go stand on a chair right now?:tongue_smilie: This is the farthest I've gotten in the thread but, IMO, standing on the chair without shoes is fine for a little guy. I'm trying to teach my kids to follow along and participate in worship. We sit near the front so that my dh can give my 7yo the "evil eye" if he's misbehaving while dh is the presiding elder for the week. I require him to stand when everyone else is standing, recite the Lord's Prayer, follow along in the bulletin, sing the songs he knows, etc. I want him to know that it please God for him to be involved in the worship.:) :lol::lol: It says the same thing about me. I stand on chairs to reach things all the time. I also climb on the counter. And go outside with a wet head in the cold. I don't separate my laundry properly. I do, however, draw the line at running with scissors. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I allow standing on chairs for my kids. It's important for them to feel involved, and that doesn't happen if their view includes nothing but chair backs and adult backsides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 What should they use then? Especially if they don't sing only hymns, so the words can't be found in a hymn book? Bulletins. Song books. Hymnals. Large print available. Actually, I think that there is a great deal of value in a church body selecting a hymnal and using it consistently. That way the theology of all of the hymns and songs is vetted by more than just the local staff, and when you visit a church in another community it's easy to participate, and families can use the same hymnals at home. When DD was pre-literate, I taught her dozens of hymns and songs by heart by singing them over and over in the car and at home. That enabled her to participate pretty fully in worship long before she could read. This has significant value. (Having a consistent few liturgies is key to that as well.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mytwomonkeys Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 (edited) Bulletins. Song books. Hymnals. Large print available. Actually, I think that there is a great deal of value in a church body selecting a hymnal and using it consistently. That way the theology of all of the hymns and songs is vetted by more than just the local staff, and when you visit a church in another community it's easy to participate, and families can use the same hymnals at home. When DD was pre-literate, I taught her dozens of hymns and songs by heart by singing them over and over in the car and at home. That enabled her to participate pretty fully in worship long before she could read. This has significant value. (Having a consistent few liturgies is key to that as well.) i don't think you need a hymnal for this. i would say most of the churches i would attend in the united states are singing songs i'm familiar with already. even when new songs are introduced at my church, they aren't just staff picks, but they are often praise songs listed at CCLI which shares the top 25 songs in contemporary churches being circulated. the ones we sing are scripturally sound. we also incorporate hymns often that are true to the words and melody but with a more modern setting. Edited October 5, 2012 by mytwomonkeys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theYoungerMrsWarde Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Is it okay to stand on a chair during the times that everyone stands? Yes. What if it is the only way for the child to see the words to the music, which are printed on a big screen at the front? What if it's the type of church where people are clapping their hands and a few are even dancing in the aisles? Yes. As much as possible the child should be allowed/encouraged to participate. Most of the other kids his age don't participate but play with handheld games or their parents' phones, but my son 1) doesn't play Mario quietly and 2) gets ramped up from games, so he would be a bear in Children's church. My husband and I are in disagreement. I really just want to participate in church without worrying about my son's behavior. If he wants to participate, fine, if he wants to stretch out on the floor and write all over the bulletin, that's fine, too, as long as he isn't disrupting another churchgoer. Church should be a positive experience, not a constantly-correcting environment. Although it sounds lax, I've noticed his behavior improves when I'm not trying to make him act a certain way. My husband just thinks it's wrong to stand on furniture, especially with shoes on. :iagree: with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitilin Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 We go to a very liturgical and formal church, with weekly services lasting 1.5 hours minimum. Ds4 stands and sings or sits and listens or looks at his prayer books. When he asks me to hold him, I will for awhile, but often I set his feet on the back of the pew ahead of us, so he is very much the same height as I am. He doesn't usually stand on the seats of the pews. IME, this is very standard behavior, especially if you want your dc focused on the liturgy rather than on drawing or mom's phone. We do sit in the second row from the front, but I have short dc, so even standing on the kneeler, his eye level is basically at the backside of whoever's ahead of us that week. I refuse guilt for helping my dc to pay attention. (FTR, we went to a daily Mass with our HS group today--we're not Catholic--my ds was the only one of his agemates in attendance who sat, stood, and kneeled when everyone did and paid attention to the liturgy. I think this is because 1) he's used to a much longer service, so this was easy, and 2) I have helped him learn to pay attention to what is going on. Pew standing is a small price to pay, I believe. :001_smile:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I've never attended a church where I wouldn't have allowed my child to stand on a pew while the congregation stood. When they are tall enough to be taller than me while they're standing on a chair, they're too old to do it. It helps them participate in the service & feel part of the community. There are no significant negatives to allowing it IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 I'd have no problem with a child standing on the pew to see the words projected. (though this is why I like a book in hand). If you don't want to do that though, maybe sitting up front would work. I'd much rather see a child standing on a pew to participate than playing a video game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In the Rain Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 :lol::lol: It says the same thing about me. I stand on chairs to reach things all the time. I also climb on the counter. And go outside with a wet head in the cold. I don't separate my laundry properly. I do, however, draw the line at running with scissors. :tongue_smilie: :lol: At least you have some kind of standard. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThisIsTheDay Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 I didn't read all the way through, but since I don't think Jesus would mind having my kid stand on a chair, I wouldn't mind either. I wouldn't allow handheld games, but I used to let my kid color in a Bible coloring book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FO4UR Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 I stood on the pew as a child, and all 3 of mine have done it at one time or another. Sitting the child in the isle seat might help, especially if he can sort of stand in the isle while standing so he can see. Can dad hold him for the songs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isabella Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Reported. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamajudy Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 (Yet another reason for churches not to rely exclusively on screens to enable congregations to participate in worship.) Some people, believe it or not, actually read the music. I've gone to churches where the congregation sang four-part harmony. Having a hymnal helps one to sing unfamiliar music because one can see the music as well as the words. In our culture today, most people are clueless about reading music. As far as children standing on chairs, I think you should use common sense and be considerate of others. Why not sit closer to the front? A child should be able to last one hour without having to go to the bathroom. Make sure children go right before church. In most cases, I think potty breaks are just an excuse to leave the service. And as for coloring and playing games, a child who is 4 years old should be participating in worship. Just my personal opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 I have no problem with a child standing on the chair/pew in order to more fully participate. At our current church, the pews are cushioned, so I haven't really seen it happen. We dont't have a screen, but our church is liturgical and we like for the children to see what is happening at the front. We are looking at attending a church that is much more liturgical and much more standing. I went with ODS and although we were near the front, because of the amount of standing, he wasn't able to see much at all of what was happening at the altar. There were children standing on pews, but at almost 7 and it being our first time, I didn't feel it would be appropriate for him to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Some people, believe it or not, actually read the music. I've gone to churches where the congregation sang four-part harmony. Having a hymnal helps one to sing unfamiliar music because one can see the music as well as the words. In our culture today, most people are clueless about reading music. As far as children standing on chairs, I think you should use common sense and be considerate of others. Why not sit closer to the front? A child should be able to last one hour without having to go to the bathroom. Make sure children go right before church. In most cases, I think potty breaks are just an excuse to leave the service. And as for coloring and playing games, a child who is 4 years old should be participating in worship. Just my personal opinion. I've held that "words on a screen" contributes to music illiteracy for years, and as a musician and music teacher, I really, really dislike it. One reason I enjoy our current church is that they DO have hymnals, and it's not unusual for my DD7 to sit during the sermon and read the hymnal-then go into her piano lesson the next week and ask her teacher questions about what she observed (I remember reading the hymnal during church, too :) ). At 4, my DD could get through the service without a potty break. At 2, when she decided she was too big for the nursery, she couldn't, so our front row, off to the side, near where the choir entered seat was extremely useful. I've known children who, at age 5-6, couldn't sit still as well as my DD could at 3, and I think it has everything to do with personality and very little to do with my parenting. I'd rather see a wiggly kid who is about to lose it take a really quick bathroom break and then make it through the rest of the service than to have the entire second half of the service turn into the parent hissing commands at a child who is more and more unable to stay still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan in TN Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 What should they use then? Especially if they don't sing only hymns, so the words can't be found in a hymn book? Our church has the music for every service printed in the bulletin - words AND music. Our worship director feels very strongly that people see the form and notation of the music, as a PP mentioned, as a form of discipleship. Also, many families use the music and scripture readings in the bulletins at home during the week in family and personal devotions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 In the last church I attended regularly, it was very informal and contemporary. The music director's children stood on chairs AND sat up front. I'm in the "up to a certain age" camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hwin Posted October 9, 2012 Author Share Posted October 9, 2012 Thanks for all the responses, wow. We sat in the second row and he was able to see the screen from the floor. I am still keeping the standing-on-chair option in my back pocket for particularly crowded services where we get stuck in the back, though ;) (Seeing the screen really is a need - this week we sang two songs that I had never heard before.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwallowTail Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 It would be fine at my church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Last Sunday, during his sermon, my pastor stood on the front pew to demonstrate a point he was making. I had to chuckle to myself. ;) ETA: If your Dh is uncomfortable and no one else's kids are standing on chairs, I'd be more heistant. Obviously not an issue at our church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfamilygal Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Some people, believe it or not, actually read the music. I've gone to churches where the congregation sang four-part harmony. Having a hymnal helps one to sing unfamiliar music because one can see the music as well as the words. In our culture today, most people are clueless about reading music. As far as children standing on chairs, I think you should use common sense and be considerate of others. Why not sit closer to the front? A child should be able to last one hour without having to go to the bathroom. Make sure children go right before church. In most cases, I think potty breaks are just an excuse to leave the service. And as for coloring and playing games, a child who is 4 years old should be participating in worship. Just my personal opinion. You must not take blood pressure medicine. I can't last an hour without going potty. Especially in the mornings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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