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skipping a middle school grade


workingmom
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For those that had a dc skip a middle school grade (6-8) was anything more required than standardized scores and showing the curriculum/work done?

 

That's all we had to do show for skipping 1st grade. But not sure what other considerations the school systems might have if he ends up skipping then transitioning into school for end of middle or high school?

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We're in the middle of looking for high schools for DS to finish up his schooling, and for the most part no one is questioning what I say about his grade level. He has been homeschooled all along, and only in states that didn't officially require a declared grade level for homeschooled students... so the only thing anyone is looking at is his transcript and test scores, and how they holds up to the school's standards in general.

 

The public school doesn't seem to care much at all.... the private schools are variable. A few are very much against grade skipping (they'd want him to repeat his current grade there, which we're up for if they can provide sufficient challenge at that level). One was entirely opposite... they won't let students "undo" a skip (or hold their kid back for any other reason in the year before applying) out of concern that parents might be trying to game the system and enroll and older kid who has had more time to make a good application... I hadn't expected that!

 

I haven't asked every school we're looking at, but I will. It's part of our decision-making in choosing a school. How they want to place him is going to be a major factor.

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IME, the further along your child is in his schooling, the less questions people have regarding age and grade. That is really a little kids game since many parents believe their youngster is ready for more than they may or may not be developmentally ready to handle. For middle school and older students, the real questions are what work have the students done, what are their test scores, and are they mature enough to handle an older crowd.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that if you double skip, your child will be leaving for college two years earlier than otherwise. For us, we've decided we want our kids with us as long as possible.

 

There are enough options in today's world for high school students who are still in high school that leaving for early college isn't necessary. You can dually enroll usually starting around age 16 (earlier if warranted) in most states. This, along with AP and CLEP opportunities, mean a high school student can collect college credit and work at their own level while still considered a high school student. This gives that student the opportunity to become a freshman in college with credit as opposed to a young freshman without.

 

Don't underestimate your child's peers, either. There are lots of bright and successful kids your younger kid is going to be competing with for college admissions. Being the same age as your advanced peers levels the playing field.

 

I know from experience it's tough to understand what I've written when your children are younger. It really wasn't until my oldest hit middle school age that we seriously had to start thinking about if we wanted her leaving the nest sooner or later....

 

Now, I have a high school sophomore with enough credits to graduate at the end of this year and SAT scores high enough to get her into many schools, who will be staying in high school for two more years because of the opportunities. I also have an eighth grader going to high school for sophomore level math, science, and foreign language study and staying in eighth grade for other subjects. The high school was more than willing to take him as a freshman, but we've decided we don't want him leaving early either. Both students are in private schools now after being homeschooled until last year. All the schools cared about were test scores (SAT and PSAT in the case of both my kids).

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For middle school and older students, the real questions are what work have the students done, what are their test scores, and are they mature enough to handle an older crowd.

...

There are enough options in today's world for high school students who are still in high school that leaving for early college isn't necessary....

 

I know from experience it's tough to understand what I've written when your children are younger. It really wasn't until my oldest hit middle school age that we seriously had to start thinking about if we wanted her leaving the nest sooner or later....

 

.

 

I would like to offer a different perspective on skipping in middle school. We "saved" the skip in elementary in order to be able to skip in middle school because our local middle school is terrible and does not offer any opportunities of advanced classes - it is one size fits all. Had my DD still been in public school, we would have tried to shorten her time in the middle school to the minimum, because the social atmosphere was intolerable, and the academics were not challenging enough.

(As it turned out, we pulled her out completely and ended up with only one grade skip in our homeschool ;a kid who takes and aces college physics courses the year after 7th grade should be allowed to call it 9th grade).

 

So, depending on the situation at the school, there may be very valid reasons for skipping in middle school. Often, high school is a better atmosphere, both socially and academically.

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:iagree:

 

As a former PS teacher, I've always held that if there are ANY grade levels to skip/travel around the world/spend a year on mission overseas, or just about ANYTHING other than a B&M school experience, it's middle school. Those grades don't seem to make much forward academic progress (in the schools around here, anyway), and just are a hormone drenched Dante-esque experience.

 

High school tends to be more differentiated and offer more options for advanced learners, and elementary...well, it depends on the school and teacher, but usually they at least make an EFFORT.

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For those that had a dc skip a middle school grade (6-8) was anything more required than standardized scores and showing the curriculum/work done?

 

That's all we had to do show for skipping 1st grade. But not sure what other considerations the school systems might have if he ends up skipping then transitioning into school for end of middle or high school?

 

I've only skipped a grade with one child, and don't think I would choose to do it again if I could go back and undo it, but he skipped 7th grade. I also have one child who started early and graduated early, but she didn't actually skip any grades. I let ds skip 7th grade, so he could graduate and not do his entire senior year at 18. I did nothing to show he skipped a grade, not for the school district or anyone else. I did have him take the test for 8th grade when we decided that was going to be the grade he did that year. (We are required to test annually.)

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We're not choosing grade levels to get a "blue ribbon" :001_huh:

 

IME, the further along your child is in his schooling, the less questions people have regarding age and grade. That is really a little kids game since many parents believe their youngster is ready for more than they may or may not be developmentally ready to handle. For middle school and older students, the real questions are what work have the students done, what are their test scores, and are they mature enough to handle an older crowd.

 

The private schools we've talked to really do care. A LOT. Even at the high school level. They don't all agree, but so far they all care. Proof hasn't been an issue, but I wouldn't call it a "little kids game".

 

We haven't seen as many options as you have, either. Well... lots of options... but not lots of good options. Nothing that would keep him out of early college if we didn't find a really challenging high school. Dual enrollment in particular is not very promising - I'd much rather find a high school with four years of math he can do, in classes, with other high school kids... and not four years of trying to piece together college math classes online or with adults. AP and CLEP aren't going to be enough.

 

All to say... there really are situations that call for skipping, even at the high school level. I'm glad you've found something that works for you, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that some of us really do need something different, and not just for bragging rights.

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We're not choosing grade levels to get a "blue ribbon" :001_huh:

 

 

 

The private schools we've talked to really do care. A LOT. Even at the high school level. They don't all agree, but so far they all care. Proof hasn't been an issue, but I wouldn't call it a "little kids game".

 

We haven't seen as many options as you have, either. Well... lots of options... but not lots of good options. Nothing that would keep him out of early college if we didn't find a really challenging high school. Dual enrollment in particular is not very promising - I'd much rather find a high school with four years of math he can do, in classes, with other high school kids... and not four years of trying to piece together college math classes online or with adults. AP and CLEP aren't going to be enough.

 

All to say... there really are situations that call for skipping, even at the high school level. I'm glad you've found something that works for you, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that some of us really do need something different, and not just for bragging rights.

 

I didn't suggest anyone wanted a blue ribbon. I was using an expression to illustrate there is no reason to rush. There is no reward for finishing early. In fact, you just end up with your kids leaving sooner.

 

Regarding the "need to do something different" I am just not sure I agree. There is a lot of value to skipping content without skipping grade levels. Once you hit 7th or 8th grade, if your scores are high enough, many high schools and colleges will work with you.

 

I have just moved into a new district with nothing but grades from last year from my kids, test scores, and a letter of recommendation from the school they left. I have had no problem finding several high schools who were willing to accommodate them. We may move again this year, and again, I am not the least bit worried that my kids will have trouble. Test scores are pretty persuasive.

 

I'm not sure I follow your logic regarding "piecing together math classes." Why would you have to piece anything together? If your student enters college early as a young freshman (presumably under 18) he will end up taking classes with adults anyway. At least if your child is taking those classes while living under your roof, you have the opportunity to guide them appropriately.

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Once you hit 7th or 8th grade, if your scores are high enough, many high schools and colleges will work with you.

 

 

Unfortunately, many colleges won't. They either have age limits (as many parents on the high school board noticed), or they insist on seeing a "high school transcript" - even though this requirement makes no sense for a 7th or 8th grader. (This happened to us; there was absolutely no way to formally enroll my 8th grader in the college physics course she ended passing with an A as the top student; she could only audit by instructor consent because of personal connections and did not receive college credit for it.)

 

I have just moved into a new district with nothing but grades from last year from my kids, test scores, and a letter of recommendation from the school they left. I have had no problem finding several high schools who were willing to accommodate them.

 

So how does that work? How do they get from their middle school where they spend a part of the day to the high school to take classes there? How does their middle school work with you? (If the attend high school full time, that would be a grade skip)

It would have been impossible for my middle schooler to go to the high school for specific classes during the day. There was no mechanism in place, and most definitely no transportation.

Edited by regentrude
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I didn't suggest anyone wanted a blue ribbon. I was using an expression to illustrate there is no reason to rush. There is no reward for finishing early. In fact, you just end up with your kids leaving sooner.

Sorry - I misunderstood. It sounded like you meant we who have opted for grade skipping think there's a prize for speed.

 

Regarding the "need to do something different" I am just not sure I agree. There is a lot of value to skipping content without skipping grade levels. Once you hit 7th or 8th grade, if your scores are high enough, many high schools and colleges will work with you.

Here's the problem. I'm not having trouble finding schools who will work with us; they're all very enthusiastic, and you're right that test scores open a lot of doors. What I'm having trouble with is finding schools who have anything available that we could reasonably use for more than, say, one year. If we drag our feet (like seriously slow down on purpose, not because we need to but because we're actively avoiding a few topics to keep from ending the course), I could save some of BC calc for next year. That would give DS one year of semi-new high school math before he absolutely ran out of what is available at the local PS. Then what? We have PSEO, but of the four possible colleges here, one has specifically ruled out Calc 3 as a PSEO option (it's always full), as well as DiffEQ. So that's a two-class gap we'd have to find somewhere else. The community college, which has over 150 sections for a class that covers the first half of Algebra 1, has exactly one section for 25 students in Calc 3. No DiffEQ. Also it's not offered on the main campus but rather an hour away from us, and at night. Two other colleges are involved in the regular PSEO and an alternative the high school is working out (which honestly looks great for a lot of kids - I don't fault them for it) might have a class or two we could manage, but I've looked at their admissions data and DS had the test scores for regular freshman admission (even the honors college) when he was ten. I don't really hold out hope for the challenge of their courses. Really. Yes, they're perfectly good colleges, but they are not going to be appropriate placements for this kid. And even the "good" one isn't quite what DS is looking for. If he were college-bound right now he wouldn't be applying there at all.

 

So what do we do?? There is one high school moderately nearby that might work out because of their independent research/science emphasis. It's a heck of a commute, and the math isn't all that but it would do for a while. That's where the grade skip comes in. There is no way we could get four years out of them. There just aren't four years of work to do. But it might tide him over long enough that early college wouldn't be so early as if he had just the PS.

 

If your student enters college early as a young freshman (presumably under 18) he will end up taking classes with adults anyway. At least if your child is taking those classes while living under your roof, you have the opportunity to guide them appropriately.

I'm not really worried about early college. I'd like him to be as close to the regular age as he can be so he doesn't spend his whole college time being "the little kid". It has nothing to do with needing my guidance to navigate it -- he's got a good head on his shoulders in that regard. But I'd much rather find a solid high school that he can get a few years out of and then go to a really really good college where he's not out of place. The problem is finding that really solid high school. (And affording it.)

 

What we get with a lot of the "how to stay in high school longer" suggestions is early college courses (PSEO/ dual enrollment) where he would absolutely stick out, not just because he's young but because these are colleges that are not attracting students who love math and science and language and history and want to explore all the possibilities each new idea opens up, as much as they are attracting students who need to get through this stupid class with at least a C- so they can get on with whatever they need the degree for. I've tutored long enough to know exactly what he'd be walking into, and it would not help. Not even to stretch out high school one more year.

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Are there many (or any) high schools that offer those kind of math classes though? I was pretty much told that if ds needed that level of work we would be looking at university classes (not CC, but university). I would be surprised if high schools around here even offered that level of math. All the high schools I know of, including the gold medal ones and STEM magnets, top out at Calc BC.

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Regarding the "need to do something different" I am just not sure I agree. There is a lot of value to skipping content without skipping grade levels. Once you hit 7th or 8th grade, if your scores are high enough, many high schools and colleges will work with you.

 

 

 

I don't know about colleges, but the public high school here doesn't work with anyone. Embedded honors (meaning that honors kids do extra work on their own), no honors before 11th grade (except in math), and no AP before 11th grade. No exceptions.

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Are there many (or any) high schools that offer those kind of math classes though? I was pretty much told that if ds needed that level of work we would be looking at university classes (not CC, but university). I would be surprised if high schools around here even offered that level of math. All the high schools I know of, including the gold medal ones and STEM magnets, top out at Calc BC.

One local one I mentioned - BC Calc, DiffEQ, Linear Algebra and a reasonable (but not amazing) math team for problem solving - AMC, AIME, etc. Honestly a really good math team would trump the coursework for me. Really what I want is a good peer group of kids who really love math and science... and that's not universal even in college.

 

My point is, though, that some situations really do call for fairly drastic measures. Grade skipping and early college is a possibility, looking at prep schools if that's in the budget (but goodness knows that's not a reasonable suggestion for everyone). Even enthusiastic high schools don't have unlimited options. Dual enrollment isn't always the right choice, especially if the colleges involved aren't ideal situations, and AP and CLEP don't go on forever.

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Unfortunately, many colleges won't. They either have age limits (as many parents on the high school board noticed), or they insist on seeing a "high school transcript" - even though this requirement makes no sense for a 7th or 8th grader. (This happened to us; there was absolutely no way to formally enroll my 8th grader in the college physics course she ended passing with an A as the top student; she could only audit by instructor consent because of personal connections and did not receive college credit for it.)

 

So how does that work? How do they get from their middle school where they spend a part of the day to the high school to take classes there? How does their middle school work with you? (If the attend high school full time, that would be a grade skip)

It would have been impossible for my middle schooler to go to the high school for specific classes during the day. There was no mechanism in place, and most definitely no transportation.

 

My 15 year old will take classes at the local university here next year part time as she will have run out of AP classes in two disciplines. The ability to dually enroll is a law here, I believe.

 

Adding this to my previous post: My middle school students DID have high school transcripts. My kids both (while being home schooled) took classes from accredited high school sources in middle school which allowed for a high school transcript. They each took foreign language and math and my daughter took three other high school classes. This transcript, in addition to SAT scores, would have allowed her to enter community college. If you look at TPS, you can enter Bellhaven Community College online with a minimum SAT score (can't remember what it is right off hand). I think it's a matter of finding the right college to work with you.

 

My 8th grader is driven by me from one school to the other. It's no fun, but it's what we're doing for now. I have considered homeschooling him part time this year and having him at the high school, but we're in the middle of a move and this is working. The high school was also willing to allow him to attend for five years, which we considered.

 

There is also a local public school which has the middle school and high school on the same campus which would have allowed my son to walk between classes. The school my kids attended last year was an inclusive K-12 which made it easy, too.

 

I had three high school/middle school combos willing to work with us this past year.

Edited by KJB
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I don't know about colleges, but the public high school here doesn't work with anyone. Embedded honors (meaning that honors kids do extra work on their own), no honors before 11th grade (except in math), and no AP before 11th grade. No exceptions.

 

Possibly my situation is unique because we move frequently, but even the public school we spoke with here had no problem having my son take math and foreign language at the high school given his grades, SAT scores, and previous high school work from 7th grade.

 

What does your public school do with advanced students? If a student is ready for advanced work (and nobody can stop anybody from taking the SAT, ACT, or AP tests regardless of age) the high school is legally obligated to accommodate.

 

Surely they don't keep everyone in the same track regardless of ability and talent?

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What we get with a lot of the "how to stay in high school longer" suggestions is early college courses (PSEO/ dual enrollment) where he would absolutely stick out, not just because he's young but because these are colleges that are not attracting students who love math and science and language and history and want to explore all the possibilities each new idea opens up, as much as they are attracting students who need to get through this stupid class with at least a C- so they can get on with whatever they need the degree for. I've tutored long enough to know exactly what he'd be walking into, and it would not help. Not even to stretch out high school one more year.

 

My son sticks out now and will again when he's ready for dual enrollment. He's a little guy and he's young for an eighth grader let alone a sophomore.

I'm not sure him being away at a university or college full time as a freshman two years early would be any better or easier for him. Both of my older two children are mature and sensible. I still think being 18 when they are negotiating the adult world alone is preferable.

 

We are close to a few universities (for example UD and Wright State) where my kids will dually enroll. If you're not close enough to a university, then you might ask the high school you find if they would consider making a suitable course for your son to take independent study with their support. The head of the math department and foreign language department at our high school have both suggested this as a possibility for our kids.

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My point is, though, that some situations really do call for fairly drastic measures. Grade skipping and early college is a possibility, looking at prep schools if that's in the budget (but goodness knows that's not a reasonable suggestion for everyone). Even enthusiastic high schools don't have unlimited options. Dual enrollment isn't always the right choice, especially if the colleges involved aren't ideal situations, and AP and CLEP don't go on forever.

 

I agree. I'm mostly just listening in on the conversation because I wonder what you do when dc hit that point.

 

Possibly my situation is unique because we move frequently, but even the public school we spoke with here had no problem having my son take math and foreign language at the high school given his grades, SAT scores, and previous high school work from 7th grade.

 

What does your public school do with advanced students? If a student is ready for advanced work (and nobody can stop anybody from taking the SAT, ACT, or AP tests regardless of age) the high school is legally obligated to accommodate.

 

Surely they don't keep everyone in the same track regardless of ability and talent?

 

I'm pretty sure that is not true here. I don't think they are legally obligated to provide anything more than the minimum state requirements for graduation. The district can't stop anyone from taking the AP test but they don't have to let your child in the AP class (or even provide an AP class for that matter).

Edited by FairProspects
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What does your public school do with advanced students? If a student is ready for advanced work (and nobody can stop anybody from taking the SAT, ACT, or AP tests regardless of age) the high school is legally obligated to accommodate.

 

 

The school is legally obligated to ensure that students are performing at grade level, nothing more.

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I agree. I'm mostly just listening in on the conversation because I wonder what you do when dc hit that point.

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure that is not true here. I don't think they are legally obligated to provide anything more than the minimum state requirements for graduation. The district can't stop anyone from taking the AP test but they don't have to let your child in the AP class (or even provide an AP class for that matter).

 

I guess it depends on the state. I think 30 or 40 states have gifted education legislation. Typically, gifted ed seems to fall under the "appropriate education" required for special needs students and along with that an IEP.

 

Nevertheless, I am kind of surprised to hear of schools in states where there is no law that will offer no accommodation for advanced students. How does a principal talking with a parent explain that while your student has passed an AP exam with a high score as a freshman or younger, that he should continue to study with age mates?

 

Most principals I've dealt with are much more open, educated about the need for differentiation, and accommodation. And if they don't start out that way, scores open their eyes and their willingness to help pretty quickly, IME.

 

Oh well. My main point in this thread is that once you skip, you run out of rope and you are forced to say goodbye to 15, 16, or 17 year olds (possibly younger, I suppose?) as they head off to college. Even mature younger teens can struggle and feel lost and disoriented at leaving home. Trying to sign leases and negotiate contracts as a minor isn't legal. Sending a minor off into the adult world comes with an element of danger and sadness, imo. But then, maybe I'm clingy to want my kids home as long as possible. I just realize that these years are so fleeting, and I want to enjoy my teens at home until they reach legal adulthood.

 

There is also a competitive advantage and value to competing with age mates for slots in selective universities, too.

 

Just my thoughts. I would have benefited from adopting them earlier on in my journey. YMMV. Best of luck in finding the best path for us all!

Edited by KJB
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My 15 year old will take classes at the local university here next year part time as she will have run out of AP classes in two disciplines. The ability to dually enroll is a law here, I believe.

.

Possibly my situation is unique because we move frequently, but even the public school we spoke with here had no problem having my son take math and foreign language at the high school given his grades, SAT scores, and previous high school work from 7th grade.

 

What does your public school do with advanced students? If a student is ready for advanced work (and nobody can stop anybody from taking the SAT, ACT, or AP tests regardless of age) the high school is legally obligated to accommodate.

 

Surely they don't keep everyone in the same track regardless of ability and talent?

 

I would be surprised if unrestricted access to dual enrollment was a law anywhere. We move a lot and will be moving again in the next couple of months and the situation is no where near as simple as what you are portraying. (FWIW, here the CCs don't allow dual enrollment prior to 16. The university normally restricts it to 2nd semester jrs. They did allow our ds to enroll as a 1st semester jr.)

 

I have spent quite a bit of time on the phone, faxing, emailing, etc various directors of admissions at different universities in the 3 different states where we might end up. One state university allows homeschooled students to enroll via continuing ed, but absolutely does not classify those students as dual enrolled. Another state's university does not allow homeschool students to dual enroll, period, and no students under 17 and sr in high school is allowed to enroll. (this university after many contacts and meeting w/the head of the admissions dept has agreed to consider allowing our ds to enroll via a conditional enrollment. He will also be turning 17 a couple of weeks after the semester starts.) The third state has PSEO and they are used to dealing w/gifted students and talking to them was like talking in a completely different language compared to the other schools (one that understood mine!! It was so nice to actually have someone who understood what we needed.)

 

Also, most universities limit the number of courses high school students can enroll in to 2. ECE students are not limited since they are considered full-time students. However, when discussing something like an advanced scholars program where the student is enrolling only part time, in 2 different states we have lived in the limit was 2 classes (with the only exception being labs associated w/1 of the courses. So if labs are enrolled in separately, then 4 courses can be registered for (2 classes + 2 labs)

 

As far as the part I have bolded, those comments are completely wrong. Spend some time on the high school board and read how many people cannot find schools that will allow their students access to AP testing. I live in a friendly county, but a friend in a neighboring county had an incredibly difficult time finding a place for her student to take his AP tests b/c the public schools absolutely refused access.

 

And......yes, students are pigeon-holed regardless of talent and ability all the time. They do not have to allow students to accelerate and can keep them stagnate w/their peers. It is one of the reasons we homeschool.

 

There are lots of options for advanced students. However, that does not mean that locally they will be receptive to your student or willing to accommodate (which is why I have spent so much time making contact b/c access to a university is a requirement for our family.) EPGY, CTY, etc are other possibilities, however many of the universities that our 11th grader has been researching will not grant credit for online coursework which means that those credits would not transfer. Also, CC coursework only goes to a certain level as noted by (I think) Kar. Our ds has exceeded the math offered at CCs, so even if the CCs allow dual enrollment while the universities don't, that doesn't help his situation.

 

Anyway, our experience is that it is not as easy as what you are portraying and that it takes due diligence on my part to ensure that the doors are open for my kids.

 

ETA: I also thought I should pt out that I am not an advocate for early graduation. But, that does not mean it has been simple (and most definitely it has not been cheap!) keeping our kids at home until normal graduation age.

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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I would be surprised if unrestricted access to dual enrollment was a law anywhere. We move a lot and will be moving again in the next couple of months and the situation is no where near as simple as what you are portraying. (FWIW, here the CCs don't allow dual enrollment prior to 16. The university normally restricts it to 2nd semester jrs. They did allow our ds to enroll as a 1st semester jr.)

 

I have not suggested "unrestricted access to dual enrollment" anywhere. I have said that dual enrollment, AP, and CLEP are all ways to acquire credit while remaining a high school student.

 

 

 

I have spent quite a bit of time on the phone, faxing, emailing, etc various directors of admissions at different universities in the 3 different states where we might end up. One state university allows homeschooled students to enroll via continuing ed, but absolutely does not classify those students as dual enrolled. Another state's university does not allow homeschool students to dual enroll, period, and no students under 17 and sr in high school is allowed to enroll. (this university after many contacts and meeting w/the head of the admissions dept has agreed to consider allowing our ds to enroll via a conditional enrollment. He will also be turning 17 a couple of weeks after the semester starts.) The third state has PSEO and they are used to dealing w/gifted students and talking to them was like talking in a completely different language compared to the other schools (one that understood mine!! It was so nice to actually have someone who understood what we needed.)

 

You are talking about students who are being home schooled. I am talking about other options besides a grade skip for a middle schooler being placed into a public or private school. Incidentally, I have just been through this with both of my older two kids (15 and 13). They were homeschooled until the beginning of last year. I struggled with the question of grade skipping and decided to accelerate into higher courses out of grade level instead of saying they were in a higher grade. While my daughter has the credits to be a second semester junior/senior lite, we are considering her a sophomore. While my son already has two high school credits and will earn three this year, he is by age and by grade a young 8th grader. I believe that relates to the OPs original question.

 

Also, most universities limit the number of courses high school students can enroll in to 2. ECE students are not limited since they are considered full-time students. However, when discussing something like an advanced scholars program where the student is enrolling only part time, in 2 different states we have lived in the limit was 2 classes (with the only exception being labs associated w/1 of the courses. So if labs are enrolled in separately, then 4 courses can be registered for (2 classes + 2 labs)

 

Yes, I have found that around 2 classes is what students can take through dual enrollment if you expect the state program to fund the classes. If you are willing to pay out of pocket, this isn't necessarily the case. A quality high school or home school will hopefully offer classes to round out a student's education. I am advocating remaining in high school or not gaining college freshman status while still continuing to work at the student's level.

 

As far as the part I have bolded, those comments are completely wrong. Spend some time on the high school board and read how many people cannot find schools that will allow their students access to AP testing. I live in a friendly county, but a friend in a neighboring county had an incredibly difficult time finding a place for her student to take his AP tests b/c the public schools absolutely refused access.

 

37 states have legally mandated gifted student services. I have never personally encountered any difficulty in finding testers. I am always wondering why people don't call the college board for suggestions about where to test when I read about resistance. And again, IME, schools have been pretty helpful once they actually see the test scores for themselves.

 

And......yes, students are pigeon-holed regardless of talent and ability all the time. They do not have to allow students to accelerate and can keep them stagnate w/their peers. It is one of the reasons we homeschool.

 

There are lots of options for advanced students. However, that does not mean that locally they will be receptive to your student or willing to accommodate (which is why I have spent so much time making contact b/c access to a university is a requirement for our family.) EPGY, CTY, etc are other possibilities, however many of the universities that our 11th grader has been researching will not grant credit for online coursework which means that those credits would not transfer. Also, CC coursework only goes to a certain level as noted by (I think) Kar. Our ds has exceeded the math offered at CCs, so even if the CCs allow dual enrollment while the universities don't, that doesn't help his situation.

 

Anyway, our experience is that it is not as easy as what you are portraying and that it takes due diligence on my part to ensure that the doors are open for my kids.

 

I haven't suggested that anything is easy?

 

I've only stated that I believe it is in most student's best interest to retain high school status for as long as possible while finding creative ways to help them work at their own level. I don't believe it is student's best interests to grade skip them only to ship them off to university at an early age. JMHO

Edited by KJB
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Actually, your posts are very dismissive to the difficulties people are expressing and they are also full of generalities that are not country-wide realities.

 

First, when I was addressing dual enrollment, i was specifically addressing the issue of beyond AP level coursework (which is what most people are discussing as where they have difficulties. ) When you have students that are young and have maxed out high school level courses, no, dual enrollment is not "required" to be allowed. (In the post I was addressing, you specifically stated that you believed that the ability to dual enroll was a law in your state.)

 

Second, I have never lived in a state that has funded access to college classes. So, the limit to 2 classes has absolutely NOTHING to do w/funding by the state (b/c we are the ones paying full-tuition for the courses for our high school students). These are **completely inflexible** university policies which we have faced in 2 different states. The only way around the 2 class limit is early graduation and full-time enrollment.

 

It is the tone of the next comment which is pretty much the only reason I responded to this thread in the first place (b/c I am anti-grade skipping so I personally didn't have any advice to offer the OP in regards to actually going ahead and doing it.) Why do you assume that people **aren't** calling the college board seeking suggestions? Also, to suggest that once schools see test scores that suddenly everything falls into place is just not everyone else's reality. (It certainly has not been our experience especially w/universities and younger students taking dual enrolled classes.)

 

And the irony here is that you are assuming that the posters that are responding to you actually disagree w/the premise that student's shouldn't remain in high school as long as possible. If you search this board for early college/graduation discussions, you will find that most people on this forum are not advocating early graduation and that they are simply expressing real hurdles they have faced.

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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Actually, your posts are very dismissive to the difficulties people are expressing and they are also full of generalities that are not country-wide realities.

 

First, when I was addressing dual enrollment, i was specifically addressing the issue of beyond AP level coursework (which is what most people are discussing as where they have difficulties. ) When you have students that are young and have maxed out high school level courses, no, dual enrollment is not "required" to be allowed. (In the post I was addressing, you specifically stated that you believed that dual enrollment was a law in your state.)

 

The OP discusses rather or not to skip in middle school and not coursework beyond AP. I never said dual enrollment was "required" in all states but instead that it is a state law in my state. The specific legislation is from the Ohio CORE legislation (S. B. 311)

 

Second, I have never lived in a state that has funded access to college classes. So, the limit to 2 classes has absolutely NOTHING to do w/funding by the state (b/c we are the ones paying full-tuition for the courses for our high school students). These are **completely inflexible** university policies which we have faced in 2 different states. The only way around the 2 class limit is early graduation and full-time enrollment.

 

While I appreciate your experience, Ohio offers funding. If the student pays out of pocket, they can take additional classes.

 

It is the tone of the next comment which is pretty much the only reason I responded to this thread in the first place (b/c I am anti-grade skipping so I personally didn't have any advice to offer the OP in regards to actually going ahead and doing it.) Why do you assume that people **aren't** calling the college board seeking suggestions? Also, to suggest that once schools see test scores that suddenly everything falls into place is just not everyone else's reality. (It certainly has not been our experience.)

 

Why do you assume they are calling the college board? In any case, I rarely see a post describing that someone took the college board's suggested testing location and then was shot down. Instead, I see a lot of frustration derived from calling the nearest schools and finding them unwilling to help. I'm not discussing anyone's reality besides my own.

 

And the irony here is that you are assuming that the posters that are responding to you actually disagree w/the premise that student's shouldn't remain in high school as long as possible. If you search this board for early college/graduation discussions, you will find that most people on this forum are not advocating early graduation and that they are simply expressing real hurdles they have faced.

 

 

As it appears we agree, your post seems to have been written only to try to find fault with mine. And now to suggest that I am being "dismissive" which quite frankly is incredibly dismissive towards me and my experiences.

 

I have not been unkind in my postings nor have I intended to dismiss anyone. I have just offered my perspective.

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The reason why acceleration is often considered isn't because it's necessarily the best for the kids-it's because it's the cheapest alternative for the school. And that's one reason why advocacy groups have chosen to put research into it because they KNOW that it's much easier to sell school systems on "just put them in a higher class" than to try to get them to actually provide specialized GT services.

 

It is my experience that high schools are better able to cope than elementary and middle schools simply because they're bigger schools, up to a point. That point is typically when you get to courses labeled AP-and AP isn't what it used to be. Not since the US News and World Report started using number of students taking AP classes/tests as a big part of their metric for best high schools so schools had a strong incentive to stick every single kid in AP Biology who got a passing grade in 9th grade Life Science. I have a parent who works closely with her local/regional high schools because she coordinates things like ISEF and JSHS at the regional/state level. And she'll be the first to tell you that all schools aren't created equal as far as the level of STEMS instruction they offer.

 

 

It's something that worries me a lot. It's really easy, right now, for me to have my DD do middle school level content in most subject areas while listing her as a 3rd grader since we homeschool. But she also wants to go to high school and be a cheerleader-and if she doesn't change her mind on that, I foresee being in EXACTLY the OP's situation-trying to find a way to re-enter a child into the system who is substantially beyond what is offered for the grade level, in a way that works for the school, without boring her to tears and wasting several years.

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If you're not close enough to a university, then you might ask the high school you find if they would consider making a suitable course for your son to take independent study with their support. The head of the math department and foreign language department at our high school have both suggested this as a possibility for our kids.

We're starting from two so completely different perspectives that I don't know that I can explain why this just isn't going to work for us. But I did want to point out for the sake of clarity:

 

1. While Ohio does allow PSEO, nowhere is it required to meet all the needs of any one student. There is an allotment of funding, and a hierarchy of who gets first dibs, and any number of college policies that can prevent any one student from taking advantage of the program in any useful way.

 

2. You're restricted in the number of credits - even if you're paying yourself. That may be college policy, but it's true for all four we have access to. So while it's lovely that Ohio has a law in place establishing a means for high school students to take a college class, that's really all that it is. Not a guarantee that you can take the class you need or any means for taking more than one or maybe two. If the funding is there. If the seniors don't take all the allotments.

 

3. Calling the College Board? Really?? You have no idea how many phone calls and emails I made to the College Board to get the list of eventually a DOZEN schools to contact for AP testing last year! Good lord it was practically a full time job for a week making phone calls, leaving messages, following up by email, and ELEVEN schools had no room, or didn't offer that test, or were an all-girls school (??) I called the College Board. It doesn't solve everything. The ONE school that could accomodate us is in a different county, an hour away or more in rush hour traffic. Thankfully they're fabulous, and rather than going through all that telephoning again we'll be doing all our AP testing there this coming May.

 

You know... it doesn't bother me at all that you or anyone else may opt not to accelerate. All I ask is that you realize that I really do have a pretty good grasp on what we need and what is available here. And I know my own kid. I have not made decisions lightly or without investigating all the possibilities. I'm still holding out hope that we can find a perfect high school that really can keep him out of college until much closer to the usual time. But nothing you've suggested is even remotely what we need. It just isn't. And nothing we're actually considering is widely available. There's no way I could say to another parent that they don't need to accelerate because there's this other choice. There might be another choice, but it's not a matter of gifted mandates and AP tests and dual enrollment solving every problem. There are absolutely situations that those just won't help, and when you make a blanket statement that "leaving for early college isn't necessary" you are, in essence, telling another parent that they don't know what their kid needs. That's what I object to.

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We're starting from two so completely different perspectives that I don't know that I can explain why this just isn't going to work for us. But I did want to point out for the sake of clarity:

 

1. While Ohio does allow PSEO, nowhere is it required to meet all the needs of any one student. There is an allotment of funding, and a hierarchy of who gets first dibs, and any number of college policies that can prevent any one student from taking advantage of the program in any useful way.

 

2. You're restricted in the number of credits - even if you're paying yourself. That may be college policy, but it's true for all four we have access to. So while it's lovely that Ohio has a law in place establishing a means for high school students to take a college class, that's really all that it is. Not a guarantee that you can take the class you need or any means for taking more than one or maybe two. If the funding is there. If the seniors don't take all the allotments.

 

3. Calling the College Board? Really?? You have no idea how many phone calls and emails I made to the College Board to get the list of eventually a DOZEN schools to contact for AP testing last year! ....... It doesn't solve everything.

 

(snip)

 

There are absolutely situations that those just won't help, and when you make a blanket statement that "leaving for early college isn't necessary" you are, in essence, telling another parent that they don't know what their kid needs. That's what I object to.

 

I wasn't going to respond to this thread again. However, KAR, your post really cuts to the crux of the issue.

 

There are multiple factors that end up influencing options--

 

full-time students get to register first and high school students get what is left (and in some states due to budget cuts even full-time students are having a difficult time getting enrolled in classes they need for their college degree (guess where that leaves the part-time dual-enrolled student.....no empty seats left for them.)

 

some universities restrict what courses high schoolers are allowed to enroll in and they are low-level common core which are also the ones that have the highest enrollment numbers. Students can be told, for example, to take some off-the-wall course b/c enrollment in the class they really want and need is full.

 

MANY universities are flat-out rejecting dual enrolled coursework that is not taught on a college campus, in person (typically stated something to the effect: coursework must have been completed on-campus of a regionally accredited institution of higher education. This is their way of rejecting high school teachers teaching college level classes on high school campuses as well as virtual classes) So, while it might sound wonderful that Mr. Smith is offering diffEQ on the high school campus, college XYZ just may not accept the student as having taken diffEQ. (it is one of the reasons why (in addition to simple challenge level) that we are paying for university enrollment vs. other options and even then, we are not sure that the courses will transfer to the school he ultimately ends up deciding on)

 

I do think that homeschoolers do have an easier time creating an educational environment that meets individual student needs. I know in our current city that there is not a local high school that can provide our 11th or 8th grade w/the coursework they need, grade skipped or not. At least we have the flexibility of searching for answers that we think will work.

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For those that had a dc skip a middle school grade (6-8) was anything more required than standardized scores and showing the curriculum/work done?

 

That's all we had to do show for skipping 1st grade. But not sure what other considerations the school systems might have if he ends up skipping then transitioning into school for end of middle or high school?

 

Gosh they got off track all together.

We were in this situation a few years ago. I can share our experience and you can see if that is helpful to your decision making process.

We HS our 7th and 8th grader. The 7th grader was capable of doing the same classes as our 8th grader so I had them both complete the same work. At the end of that year we had the option of counting it as 8th grade and letting her skip 7th. She could have gone onto high school with her brother.

 

We looked at her age but more importantly for us her overall development. She was academically mature and even emotionally mature and responsible. However, we would be limiting the time we had to educate her in life skills. Skills such as interpersonal relationships, finance, home economics, and responsibility as well as consequences. (good and bad consequences - stay up to late still have to do work. bad, Have good reputation and have band director allow you to be in symphonic as a home school student...good). Driving skills and experience.

 

Other considerations was the age she would be at graduation. She would not be able to drive until just before graduation. Her peers would be advancing with liberties like dating before we were going to extend those same liberties to her. We were concerned at the awkward position that would put her or us in.

 

She is now in 10th grade and we are glad we decided to keep her on course with her peers. It does present challenges as she will finish her 4 years of math by the first semester of her sophomore year. However, it has also presented her with opportunities. She was ready this year mentally and emotionally to pursue applying for a leadership role in marching band. She is learning leadership skills and experiencing the good and the bad ( "I do not get to have as much fun as they do because I have to set the standard") She is experiencing for herself how an others irresponsibility affect those around them. If she had skipped a grade I am not sure she would have gone this direction. The maturing that has taken place from 13- 15 years of age was HUGE.

 

I would just encourage you in your decisions to look at the whole person not just academics and test scores for readiness to advance grades. My perspective from here is so much different than it was two years ago. They will be leaving soon...much too soon.:eek:

 

I am already asking myself if I have taught her all I need to teach her to be ready to be a productive member of society. Its funny because from this area of life I am asking not about academics at all. :tongue_smilie:

I am more concerned if she is ready in skills like managing a checking account, making a budget, making a meal plan and a grocery list from that plan. Does she know how to make a pie? Get stains out of clothing? Put gas in a vehicle? Tell what kind of person someone is? Are they trustworthy? Does she know what respect looks like? Can she spot disrespect in a person so she will steer clear of a dead end relationship? There is so much to this educating our children.

What fun this journey is! Good luck to you as you consider and decide what is best for you and your DC.:grouphug:

 

I am glad she is progressing academically. However, her personal development into a mature young woman thrills me!

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I went to a private school and one day after 5th grade the principal told my mom they wanted me to skip the 6th grade as they really were having trouble offering me any challenges. as far as i could tell, the only thing they learned in 6th grade at that school was multiplying and dividing fractions. it took me about 30 seconds one afternoon with a math workbook to find out that to multiply them you multiply the tops and the bottoms, and to divide you invert and multiply. so academically i was then ready for 7th grade.

 

unfortunately when i showed up there i was a year younger than everyone else, and smaller and much less socially mature. most of the girls were much larger than me. fortunately i was a good athlete, but i still became something of a geek in that class, whereas i had been used to being a regular guy with social chops.

 

after two years of misery socially, and one year suffering from an insensitive teacher i begged them to let me go back. reluctantly they complied. that didn't work out so well either since by then my ties to the younger class were dissolved, and i just remained something of a fish out of water through high school. the local college would not allow cross enrollment even though i was already taking a class in high school from the same book they used for vanderbilt freshmen, and which they were abandoning as too difficult.

 

finding the right level is very hard with a child whose mental age differs greatly from his actual age. socially and academically i finally found my niche at harvard in college, but even then there were serious and difficult adjustments to make in learning to study hard, and in learning to socialize with rich city folk. but eventually i was glad to have gone there.

 

probably the only thing that would have worked in middle and high school would have been to not go there. but i would have missed being in school with phil everly, and watching the older, cooler kids jitterbug.

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We're starting from two so completely different perspectives that I don't know that I can explain why this just isn't going to work for us. But I did want to point out for the sake of clarity:

 

1. While Ohio does allow PSEO, nowhere is it required to meet all the needs of any one student. There is an allotment of funding, and a hierarchy of who gets first dibs, and any number of college policies that can prevent any one student from taking advantage of the program in any useful way.

 

2. You're restricted in the number of credits - even if you're paying yourself. That may be college policy, but it's true for all four we have access to. So while it's lovely that Ohio has a law in place establishing a means for high school students to take a college class, that's really all that it is. Not a guarantee that you can take the class you need or any means for taking more than one or maybe two. If the funding is there. If the seniors don't take all the allotments.

 

3. Calling the College Board? Really?? You have no idea how many phone calls and emails I made to the College Board to get the list of eventually a DOZEN schools to contact for AP testing last year! Good lord it was practically a full time job for a week making phone calls, leaving messages, following up by email, and ELEVEN schools had no room, or didn't offer that test, or were an all-girls school (??) I called the College Board. It doesn't solve everything. The ONE school that could accomodate us is in a different county, an hour away or more in rush hour traffic. Thankfully they're fabulous, and rather than going through all that telephoning again we'll be doing all our AP testing there this coming May.

 

You know... it doesn't bother me at all that you or anyone else may opt not to accelerate. All I ask is that you realize that I really do have a pretty good grasp on what we need and what is available here. And I know my own kid. I have not made decisions lightly or without investigating all the possibilities. I'm still holding out hope that we can find a perfect high school that really can keep him out of college until much closer to the usual time. But nothing you've suggested is even remotely what we need. It just isn't. And nothing we're actually considering is widely available. There's no way I could say to another parent that they don't need to accelerate because there's this other choice. There might be another choice, but it's not a matter of gifted mandates and AP tests and dual enrollment solving every problem. There are absolutely situations that those just won't help, and when you make a blanket statement that "leaving for early college isn't necessary" you are, in essence, telling another parent that they don't know what their kid needs. That's what I object to.

 

I hear you loud and clear. We started school a year early and skipped 8th grade. Even with a top 4%PSAT and top 3%SAT we are dealing with the reality that I will likely be moving with our daughter in order to make the transition possible. We tapped out of AP classes last year since I had to teach all of them and could no longer justify the time and toll it took from what I consider important. For me Latin , music and philosophy are important. At this point we have been laughed at by an Ivy when they found out that I will be moving with her, told she cannot attend at all at a public Ivy as the rule is no one may enroll under 18 or who will not be 18 within a month of enrollment, and to add insult to injury you think I made a choice to throw my career as an attorney in the garbage?? Because that degree without any experience makes it worthless. Dual enrollment is not a viable choice as the local community college is abysmal. So in order that she have real choices, I am pulling up and moving with her until she feels synchronized enough to live on her own. It is a wonderful and delightful experience to see her make choices but those choices are made knowing she will not be alone while the rest of her catches up with her brain. It is lonely, frustrating and isolating. On the upside it is exhilirating, astounding and lovely when you watch your child find a kindred spirit. Mostly it is lonely and really much like pissing in the wind to get any solution that works well for all involved. It truly depends on where you live. In a larger city I am certain that statistically it is more likely that enrichment, authentic gifted programs and radical grade acceleration are options. Also my friends in college towns have had far better experiences than we have with accomodation, programs and a lack of hostility and Little Man Tate jokes. However, in the final analysis she knows I did everything I could for her including a total embrace of the possibility of moving far from the only place I have lived for my 47 years. Forgive me for my audible frustration but we are in the thick of this and it is just so very difficult. You have no idea. And the College Board can kiss my erudite and broader by the minute derriere. They are useless as ***s on a boar.

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