racial bias charges against specialized high school test... your thoughts?

[Murphy101]

Not children failing classes, schools not educating children. Schools where the class valedictorian has to take remedial classes at the local cc to bring up their reading and math levels after they have graduated; schools where their best students are routinely turned down for admission to colleges because everyone in higher ed knows the low level of education they have received; schools where there are more students moving into prison than on to college; schools where the average 8th grader reads at a 1st grade level. These schools do exist. It's abysmal.

 

And I'm talking about kids with no documented disabilities.

 

 

THIS! We need to admit some kids need an F and refuse to pass them. Let them drop out if necessary. But a diploma is a LIE if it doesn't even mean they can be assured they have attained even a proper 8th grade level of knowledge.

[Lovin Learnin]

At what point are individual humans responsible for educating themselves and their children, of making use of any resources, meager though they might be, to better themselves and or their children?

 

At what point are we going to accept that we could drown every kid in knowledge and opportunity, but a percentages is always going to refuse to drink it in?

 

I thought sending your child to school WAS making use of available resources. It's their fault that the quality of education is vastly different from that in more affluent neighborhoods?

 

I do agree with the notion that you can't make everyone want it, but I refuse to believe that a whole town or school is filled with people who chose to turn away from the knowledge we are trying to rain down upon them.

[Lovin Learnin]

THIS! We need to admit some kids need an F and refuse to pass them. Let them drop out if necessary. But a diploma is a LIE if it doesn't even mean they can be assured they have attained even a proper 8th grade level of knowledge.

 

Agreed.

[Pink Fairy]

Not children failing classes, schools not educating children. Schools where the class valedictorian has to take remedial classes at the local cc to bring up their reading and math levels after they have graduated; schools where their best students are routinely turned down for admission to colleges because everyone in higher ed knows the low level of education they have received; schools where there are more students moving into prison than on to college; schools where the average 8th grader reads at a 1st grade level. These schools do exist. It's abysmal.

 

And I'm talking about kids with no documented disabilities.

 

I would be interested in links if you have them. I didn't realize that there were entire schools where the average 8th grader reads at a 1st grade level, or that higher ed institutions regularly turn down the best students from particular schools. What is your reference for the students who graduate from high school yet are illiterate with no documented learning disabilities?

 

I did know about the need for remedial classes in college (my dh is working on this problem with the local cc :001_smile:--so proud of him).

Edited October 3, 2012 by Mamabegood
stupid typos...

[Sneezyone]

I would be interested in links if you have them. I didn't realize that there were entire schools where the average 8th grader reads at a 1st grade level, or that higher ed institutions regularly turn down the best students from particular schools. What is your reference for the students who graduate from high school yet are illiterate with no documented learning disabilities?

 

I did know about need for remedial classes in college (my dh is working on this problem with the local cc :001_smile:--so proud of him).

 

Search dropout factory. There are a raft of them in Los Angeles.

[Pink Fairy]

Search dropout factory. There are a raft of them in Los Angeles.

 

I know there are high dropout rates at some schools, and that the dropout rates are under reported.

[NASDAQ]

No libraries? This is _New York City_, for crying out loud.

 

Asian kids are going to those same awful schools, with the same lousy books and teachers and drug deals in the hallway, and coming out exceptionally able to do math.

 

Yes, the state has to provide everyone with a public education. No, the state does not need to send everyone to Stuyvesant or Brooklyn Tech. There's nothing wrong with having a few schools in a huge city that are dedicated to educating children who enter high school at an exceptionally high level of ability, even if every single one of the students who qualifies for that school is a left-handed Vietnamese kid.

[Lovin Learnin]

I would be interested in links if you have them. I didn't realize that there were entire schools where the average 8th grader reads at a 1st grade level, or that higher ed institutions regularly turn down the best students from particular schools. What is your reference for the students who graduate from high school yet are illiterate with no documented learning disabilities?

 

I did know about need for remedial classes in college (my dh is working on this problem with the local cc :001_smile:--so proud of him).

 

My husband works in higher ed, specifically to increase the diversity on his campus, so it is a part of his everyday life. Posting multiple links would take me some time and I'm headed to bed :), but here is an interesting one.

 

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that in California you could be the class valedictorian, graduate with a perfect 4.0 GPA, and have a perfect score on the ACT, but still not be allowed admission to Berkeley or UCLA because your high school didn't offer enough AP courses. Perhaps some California folks can weigh in on the validity of that.

[Pink Fairy]

My husband works in higher ed, specifically to increase the diversity on his campus, so it is a part of his everyday life. Posting multiple links would take me some time and I'm headed to bed :), but here is an interesting one.

 

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that in California you could be the class valedictorian, graduate with a perfect 4.0 GPA, and have a perfect score on the ACT, but still not be allowed admission to Berkeley or UCLA because your high school didn't offer enough AP courses. Perhaps some California folks can weigh in on the validity of that.

 

That was interesting--thanks for the link!

 

Something caught my eye (well, many things, but here's one):

 

"Students are still tracked based on color," she added. "They are often put in low level classes based on the whims of an administrator."

 

That quote is from Tammy Johnson, "program director of the Oakland, Calif.-based ERASE Initiative, a national public policy program that works on issues of race and public education."

 

I read that and it leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth. Who are all these administrators whimsically placing students in low level classes simply because they are Hispanic or black? And this is supposed to be happening in California as well, I assume since they are based in Oakland?

 

**Oh, and good night! Hopefully we can continue in the morning, I'm enjoying the conversation and learning some things.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Mamabegood

[Murphy101]

I thought sending your child to school WAS making use of available resources. It's their fault that the quality of education is vastly different from that in more affluent neighborhoods?

 

YES! Why not? They should strike. They should do whatever it takes, right up to closing the schools, to get their kids the education they deserve. The parents have the final say and the biggest lie is that they don't. These are their kids and they are going to have to fight the hardest for them. Everyone wins when any parent fights for the best for their kid. Refuse to send their kids to schools that are nothing more than a front for gangs and crappy teachers.

 

I do agree with the notion that you can't make everyone want it, but I refuse to believe that a whole town or school is filled with people who chose to turn away from the knowledge we are trying to rain down upon them.

 

Believe it. And the knowledge isn't raining down on them either. I admit that too. But totally believe that this is a culture problem, which means there is an entire demographic that accepts and maintains the problem.

 

You see it every time a kid's sibling or cousin or neighbor makes fun of him for working hard to better himself. Bettering themselves is viewed as disloyal and snobby. Refusing to join a gang or skip class or many other things is not accepted. And schools that are fronts for these situations are not going to attract or retain quality teachers. They get tired of beating themselves against the wall.

 

So people who do want better get together and create exclusive environments to protect what they are trying to work towards.

 

And they create bars to get through. Bars that only those who share their drive are going to have a chance to meet. Bars like scores on a standard test.

 

I'd like to know if there are parent prep programs to let parents of preschoolers know their options? Is there an outreach program or mentoring program to catch these kids before they become apathic? Or to coach parents who are apathic? Not a get ready for prek program. A well thought out, we will stick with you helping all the way through high school program? I don't think we will see real change until that happens.

 

Because right now the biggest problem is that we are actually discussing this as though parents are helpless about what they are doing with and for their own kids. The parents are the key and have all the power, but they are discussed as though they are helpless cogs.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Martha

[Chelli]

I'd like to know if there are parent prep programs to let parents of preschoolers know their options? Is there an outreach program or mentoring program to catch these kids before they become apathic? Or to coach parents who are apathic? Not a get ready for prek program. A well thought out, we will stick with you helping all the way through high school program? I don't think we will see real change until that happens.

 

As a former ps teacher, I love this answer/idea. I think a community effort from the grass roots up type of campaign is what we need. A lot of poor parents (of any race!) really don't know how to interact with their child to foster education and learning. They don't know what a difference that interaction (conversation, reading, etc) makes in a child's verbal skills. They have never seen it modeled. Creating parent teams across socio-economic and racial barriers where active, involved parents can model these behaviors for parents of children who are "behind" would be great! Maybe the schools could offer incentives if parents and children signed up for the program.

 

A phrase I've learned on these boards, "Sometimes parents don't do better, because they don't know better!"

[Joanne]

Well now then Joanne, I propose we just admit they are too screwed to help and close the schools. No point wasting more money on manure education if the problem is preconception.

 

Personally, I think that's not true. We are more than the sum of our birth situation.

 

Again I ask:

 

At what point are individual humans responsible for educating themselves and their children, of making use of any resources, meager though they might be, to better themselves and or their children?

 

At what point are we going to accept that we could drown every kid in knowledge and opportunity, but a percentages is always going to refuse to drink it in?

 

The passive/aggressive hyperbole aside, we are not talking about the same thing. And I don't think the fail is "manure education"; it is unfortunately more pervasive and entrenched than that. I don't think "they" are hopeless but I do think the ideas and opinions bantered around this thread are superficial at best and in some cases, insulting.

 

The ability to access and utilize education requires resources beyond books and teachers. It requires a decent prenatal experience, parents with a GED or better, lack of gangs or need to join one, breakfast, lunch, dinner, medical and dental care, sleep, and parents who are able to access the same. That is just the start of the list.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Joanne
sorry for the typos i am on my phone

[kiana]

I read that and it leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth. Who are all these administrators whimsically placing students in low level classes simply because they are Hispanic or black? And this is supposed to be happening in California as well, I assume since they are based in Oakland?

 

 

I have spoken with practicing teachers who have told me that they had kids in their 'low-track' classes who scored in the 70th percentile, and kids in the 'prep-track' who scored in the 15th. Guess the races?

 

That being said, I don't think that doing away with the admissions tests is the answer, unless it can be shown that the students who do not pass the admissions test do just as well with the same courseload.

 

Q: Does everyone have the same access to the level of learning required to score well on this test, regardless of intellect? A: No. It sucks, but not really.

 

Q: Does the lack of prior learning matter in the ability to absorb a really elite school's curriculum? A: Unfortunately, I believe that it does. I truly believe that admitting students who are not prepared for the rigor of the coursework does a disservice to both the school and the student.

[Murphy101]

The passive/aggressive hyperbole aise, we are not talking about the same thing. And I don"t think the fail is "manure education"; it is unfortunately more pervasive and entrenched then that. I don't think "they" are hopeless but I do think the ideas and opinions bantered around this thread are superficial at best and in some cases, insultig

 

The ability to access and utilize education requires resources beyond books and teachers. It requires a decent prenatal experience, parents with a GED or better, lack of gangs or need to join one, breakfast, lunch, dinner, medical and dental care, sleep, and parents who are able to access the same. That is just the start of the list.

 

Bull. I didn't have ANY of that. Not one thing on that list. But my kids do. Because I worked my @$$ off for it and demand they do too.

 

I have spoken with practicing teachers who have told me that they had kids in their 'low-track' classes who scored in the 70th percentile, and kids in the 'prep-track' who scored in the 15th. Guess the races?

 

I won't guess the race, but I can guess the socioeconomic status. I know most of my teachers wrote me off bc of that and my parents disinterest.

[Murphy101]

As a former ps teacher, I love this answer/idea. I think a community effort from the grass roots up type of campaign is what we need. A lot of poor parents (of any race!) really don't know how to interact with their child to foster education and learning. They don't know what a difference that interaction (conversation, reading, etc) makes in a child's verbal skills. They have never seen it modeled. Creating parent teams across socio-economic and racial barriers where active, involved parents can model these behaviors for parents of children who are "behind" would be great! Maybe the schools could offer incentives if parents and children signed up for the program.

 

A phrase I've learned on these boards, "Sometimes parents don't do better, because they don't know better!"

 

That won't work. People coming in acting like they know better bc they have more money or a degree is viewed as condescending (possibly rightly) and racist. And make no mistake, no matter how nice and well intentioned, that is exactly how it is viewed. When all someone has is pride, they guard it tight.

 

I'd start by giving books and after or before school community building sessions. Even if the parents don't come, the kids see a different social dynamic than what's at home and a place where they aren't ridiculed for reading or learning. And parents interested can get encouragement from other committed parents.

 

It can be facilitated by those from outside the community, but there has got to be growth within for it to work.

 

Heck, just someone to streamline the nightmarish endless list of litmus tests would be tremendously helpful. It's a huge pita to get basic info in a timely manner or to get step by step planning help. Being an involved parent in a good school is almost a full time job, in a crappy school it's even more work. Having a third parent whose only goal is advocating for the family would a great asset to the community.

[NASDAQ]

Why exactly would we expect that certain specialised STEM schools are going to have equal or anywhere-near-equal representation of races, anyway? It's a strange assumption.

[kubiac]

These kids were not failed in high school or Jr. high. They were failed before conception. The idea that if they (or their parents) wanted it, some phonics and good books and trained STEM teachers will take care of the problem is PART of the problem.

 

You can't fix this problem with academic theories. You need to fix the problem first - and it will take generations and pervasive reform. Eventually, academics could help, but academics are not the problem.

 

I just read the [excellent!] book about Geoffrey Canada's Harlem Children's Zone, and Canada seemed to say the same thing.

 

The gestalt of the book (IMHO) is that intensive intervention from the pre-natal period through the on-set of puberty can lead to great outcomes, but without the intensity during that highly vulnerable period (if you don't do enough from 0-12, or if your intensive interventions only begin in middle schol), academic failure for underprivileged kids, and maybe for all kids, is all but certain.

 

My feeling is that suing NYC schools over this particular test and the racial makeup at these schools is missing the point. If kids are not passing this test, they are not qualified for the schools, period. Interested parties should take their truly righteous indignation (seriously--this is a travesty) elsewhere and be suing over universal preschool access, lead-paint abatement programs, school-food nutrition levels and other early inventions, etc.

 

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that in California you could be the class valedictorian, graduate with a perfect 4.0 GPA, and have a perfect score on the ACT, but still not be allowed admission to Berkeley or UCLA because your high school didn't offer enough AP courses. Perhaps some California folks can weigh in on the validity of that.

 

That sounds approximately correct. When I applied (lo those many years ago), AP and honors courses were given added weight in calculating your GPA for the purposes of UC application, so you were really competing on a 5.0 scale. Even straight As in regular courses would leave you significantly behind by that measure--the idea was to go for straight As in as many AP and honors classes as you could jam into your schedule. Side note: My high-achieving friend Emma had straight As, but lost the valedictorian spot by a decimal point to another girl who had straight As, because that girl had one extra AP course on her record: AP Studio Art. Don't cry for Emma though. She went to CalTech. :)

 

(For this reason, manipulating your schedule over a period of years so you can jam in as many APs a possible becomes one of the major sports of public high-school academia in California. To win at this sport, it is beneficial to have a supportive and influential college counselor--heaven help those who have no such thing or don't know how to use school resources effectively. Consider that another challenge of "opportunity" for the world to work on solving.)

 

P.S. Very interesting thread!

Edited October 3, 2012 by kubiac

[Roadrunner]

 

My feeling is that suing NYC schools over this particular test and these schools is missing the point. If kids are not passing this test, they are not qualified for the schools, period. Interested parties should take their truly righteous indignation (seriously--this is a travesty) elsewhere and be suing over universal preschool access, lead-paint abatement programs, school-food nutrition levels and other early inventions, etc.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

If there are more qualified students than spots, then we should expand opportunities but without lowering standards.

I also feel like their lawsuit isn't directed at a right institution.

[stripe]

THIS! We need to admit some kids need an F and refuse to pass them. Let them drop out if necessary. But a diploma is a LIE if it doesn't even mean they can be assured they have attained even a proper 8th grade level of knowledge.

 

As long as we are prepared to foot the bill for prison. Why are we willing to foot the bill for prison, but not for education and job training? We cannot just throw people away. They never go away. We are all part of one society, and when one contingent is sick, we are affected. We will ALL be better off if all Americans have a basic level of education. Putting kids in dreadful schools with unprepared teachers who are scared of them, to sit there and do boring worksheets, is not inspiring. These are not Waldorf kids who are refusing to get out their beeswax crayons or Reggio Emilia kids who won't do dress-up.

 

Many of the kids who drop out of high school have a C average or higher, you know. Preschool kids are expelled -- expelled! -- at three times the rate of K-12 students. There is something toxic going on.

 

If you watched Dropout Nation on Frontline (PBS), you saw examples of the reasonably intelligent kids who have tons of life problems getting in the way of their education. The Apollo 20 schools in Houston were profiled, based their approach on interviews with kids who said school was boring and they felt like teachers/administrators didn't care about them. They have tons of tutoring, and qualified teachers, and they expect high-level work from all. It sure seems to me more of the "We don't care about you!" approach is not helping our society. At all.

[stripe]

I have spoken with practicing teachers who have told me that they had kids in their 'low-track' classes who scored in the 70th percentile, and kids in the 'prep-track' who scored in the 15th. Guess the races?

 

I wouldn't have a clue because I see people of all skin colors achieving AND failing all the time. Have you never seen a stupid white person, a stupid Asian person, or a smart Latino/a person or a smart black person? Or are all your worst stereotypes only ever confirmed?

 

But I would like to remind those reading that some members on this board ARE black or Latino. Some members of this board have black or latino husbands, and even more importantly, some members of this board have black/latino kids. The assumption that our children are automatically dodos is offensive. Some of us would like to have a decent job and educational opportunities for ourselves, our husbands, and our kids, instead of seeing that it is okay to assume brown people are lesser. If you don't believe those doing the hiring (usually white people) are more comfortable with people "like them," then I suggest you read up on discrimination in hiring. This is a rampant problem that some of us on this board -- who are highly qualified and intelligent and/or have such spouses -- encounter and do not want for our kids.

 

It is pathetic that we are so quick to embrace the idea that poor people are poor because they deserve to be, rich people are rich because they are better, and huge segments of the population are bunch of losers.

 

I also don't know what's giving anyone the idea that poor white kids are doing fabulously in school or getting lots of great opportunities and jobs. So it's not only a race thing.

 

I wonder, does it make you feel confident in womankind when you see that less than five percent of physics professors are women? Read this report on women in STEM fields, http://www.aauw.org/learn/research/upload/whysofew.pdf , from the American Assn of University Women, and see if maybe, maybe some of the explanations for women translate into something that explains other phenomena in the world. If we are quick to identify and reject bias against women, then we should not be so slow to address the same problems in other populations.

[Kate in Arabia]

Is there something wrong in having the test independently reviewed to make sure there isn't any bias? There have been instances in the past where standardized-type exams were found to have been discriminatory against specific groups of people, like women and minorities. Just because we've had something in place for a long time doesn't necessarily mean it isn't without problems...

[deacongirl]

That won't work. People coming in acting like they know better bc they have more money or a degree is viewed as condescending (possibly rightly) and racist. And make no mistake, no matter how nice and well intentioned, that is exactly how it is viewed. When all someone has is pride, they guard it tight.

 

I'd start by giving books and after or before school community building sessions. Even if the parents don't come, the kids see a different social dynamic than what's at home and a place where they aren't ridiculed for reading or learning. And parents interested can get encouragement from other committed parents.

 

It can be facilitated by those from outside the community, but there has got to be growth within for it to work.

 

Heck, just someone to streamline the nightmarish endless list of litmus tests would be tremendously helpful. It's a huge pita to get basic info in a timely manner or to get step by step planning help. Being an involved parent in a good school is almost a full time job, in a crappy school it's even more work. Having a third parent whose only goal is advocating for the family would a great asset to the community.

 

Ummm...it will work, and it does work. See Harlem Children's Zone.

ETA: This was supposed to be a reply to a different post...but results of Harlem Children's Zone show it isn't rocket science.

Edited October 3, 2012 by deacongirl
Oops--replied to the wrong post.

[Haiku]

Chester E. Finn Jr., president of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, an education policy group, said:

“The larger challenge for the city is to prepare its minority children so that they will do well on the various screening requirements for the city’s large number of good high schools, including the ones that require this test.”

 

 

When do we the people open enough seats for all qualified students?

 

When do we the people reject the 'bad' schools, instead improving them and offering 'good' schools to all? Will nepotism and cronyism never end?

 

Exactly. What that man said is disgusting. Why do kids have to compete to go to a limited number of good high schools? Why aren't ALL the high schools good? Why do we accept terrible schools for poor kids??

 

I think many people on this thread are completely missing the point. If a child goes to a terrible school, the chance for that child to be academically prepared to do well on the test for a GT high school is very low. A test prep book isn't going to make up for 8 years in a school with no textbooks, the worst teachers, and an administration that every day gives the kids the message that they are worth nothing.

 

Classism is so horribly rampant ...

 

Tara

Edited October 3, 2012 by TaraTheLiberator
Typo

[Murphy101]

As long as we are prepared to foot the bill for prison. Why are we willing to foot the bill for prison, but not for education and job training?

 

You have gotta be kidding. We spend a bloody fortune on education. Now you can argue that it's stupidly spent, and I will completely agree with you. But there is no way I'm convinced that we don't spend more than enough money to effect change if it was properly used.

 

We cannot just throw people away. They never go away. We are all part of one society, and when one contingent is sick, we are affected. We will ALL be better off if all Americans have a basic level of education. Putting kids in dreadful schools with unprepared teachers who are scared of them, to sit there and do boring worksheets, is not inspiring. These are not Waldorf kids who are refusing to get out their beeswax crayons or Reggio Emilia kids who won't do dress-up.

 

*I* was not the one calling opinions on things to change manure. *I* have no desire to throw anyone away. But we do need to have three steps built into the system.

 

1. Intensive focused effort prek-6th grade

2. Stop mandating attendance in high school. If you have to mandate it, there's a problem. Make it something they WANT. And if they refuse to drink from that pond, let them go find another. Getting a high school diploma has become something much like a college degree. There is a presumption that everyone is suited to 13 years in a classroom, when we know for a fact that simply isn't true.

3. We need to stop artificially inflating the value of a diploma or a degree, so that those who leave the system can be employable.

 

The issue of crime is ... Well again I don't think it's racist, but I do think it is classist to presume that without a diploma they will be criminals. It's not as though the diploma gives them some indelible mark of morality.

 

Many of the kids who drop out of high school have a C average or higher, you know. Preschool kids are expelled -- expelled! -- at three times the rate of K-12 students. There is something toxic going on.

 

I do know. I had a B average when I considered it. I would think prek would be expelled at a much higher rate. That makes complete sense to me as it is the least supported and the most difficult to manage for teachers and slower to develop kids often just need time that the system doesn't give them. Shall we discuss solutions for that? Because the first one is to do away with preschool, IMO. No child needs what we call preschool. I'd prefer to see some sort of yearly evaluation of reasonable milestones and some in home or community effort to progress. Most of preschool is classroom herding skills, not academic.

 

If you watched Dropout Nation on Frontline (PBS), you saw examples of the reasonably intelligent kids who have tons of life problems getting in the way of their education. The Apollo 20 schools in Houston were profiled, based their approach on interviews with kids who said school was boring and they felt like teachers/administrators didn't care about them. They have tons of tutoring, and qualified teachers, and they expect high-level work from all. It sure seems to me more of the "We don't care about you!" approach is not helping our society. At all.

 

Again. I didn't say I don't care. I actually do. What I have said is that no amount of caring and force feeding is going to replace internal motivation from the home or at least the student. It just won't and until that is addressed, any other efforts are going to be a waste for most. That's not a lack of caring. It's harsh reality. Much of it based on my own experiences. I was tremendously fortunate in that once I stumbled upon reading, books became my escape. By 7th grade I was better read than my teachers. But many other kids didn't feel that way about reading. Many dropped out. But the majority of my education was completely at my own whim bc my teacher wrote me off. By 5th grade, I reciprocated that sentiment and made it my goal to get free asap. And my parents were not involved. I had a couple teachers who tried to be encouraging, but they were so ignorant about my reality that frankly I found them insulting. (rightly so much of the time)

 

I've watched many documentaries... Trying to refresh my memory on that one.

[Murphy101]

Ummm...it will work, and it does work. See Harlem Children's Zone.

ETA: This was supposed to be a reply to a different post...but results of Harlem Children's Zone show it isn't rocket science.

 

That's great then! And i see they try to staff with people the local community can identify with, which would be a great factor in mitigating my initial concern,

 

Please refresh my memory.. I didnt have time t keep researching...Is this the one with dorms that the kids live at? Because while I do completely understand why that makes it work and is necessary, I also think that it makes it more unlikely for parents to participate.

 

I think many people on this thread are completely missing the point. If a child goes to a terrible school, the chance for that child to be academically prepared to do well on the test for a GT high school is very low.

 

Classism is so horribly rampant ...

 

Tara

 

I completely agree. And it's why I think those schools should be shut down. They aren't fit to educate anyone's kid.

[deacongirl]

I wouldn't have a clue because I see people of all skin colors achieving AND failing all the time. Have you never seen a stupid white person, a stupid Asian person, or a smart Latino/a person or a smart black person? Or are all your worst stereotypes only ever confirmed?

 

But I would like to remind those reading that some members on this board ARE black or Latino. Some members of this board have black or latino husbands, and even more importantly, some members of this board have black/latino kids. The assumption that our children are automatically dodos is offensive. Some of us would like to have a decent job and educational opportunities for ourselves, our husbands, and our kids, instead of seeing that it is okay to assume brown people are lesser. If you don't believe those doing the hiring (usually white people) are more comfortable with people "like them," then I suggest you read up on discrimination in hiring. This is a rampant problem that some of us on this board -- who are highly qualified and intelligent and/or have such spouses -- encounter and do not want for our kids.

 

It is pathetic that we are so quick to embrace the idea that poor people are poor because they deserve to be, rich people are rich because they are better, and huge segments of the population are bunch of losers.

 

I also don't know what's giving anyone the idea that poor white kids are doing fabulously in school or getting lots of great opportunities and jobs. So it's not only a race thing.

 

I wonder, does it make you feel confident in womankind when you see that less than five percent of physics professors are women? Read this report on women in STEM fields, http://www.aauw.org/learn/research/upload/whysofew.pdf , from the American Assn of University Women, and see if maybe, maybe some of the explanations for women translate into something that explains other phenomena in the world. If we are quick to identify and reject bias against women, then we should not be so slow to address the same problems in other populations.

 

Yes. Thank you. :iagree:

[Murphy101]

I wouldn't have a clue because I see people of all skin colors achieving AND failing all the time. Have you never seen a stupid white person, a stupid Asian person, or a smart Latino/a person or a smart black person? Or are all your worst stereotypes only ever confirmed?

 

I agree. It's not race. It's socioeconomic. And there are plenty of poor white folk.

 

It is pathetic that we are so quick to embrace the idea that poor people are poor because they deserve to be, rich people are rich because they are better, and huge segments of the population are bunch of losers.

 

i do not think that. I do think it is a shame when we tell people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, but ignore their lack of boots. Sadly part of of the problem is convincing a segment of the population to take the boots we are offering.

 

I also don't know what's giving anyone the idea that poor white kids are doing fabulously in school or getting lots of great opportunities and jobs. So it's not only a race thing.

 

amen. And if we really want to go there, I was specifically turned down a time or two bc I was white and thus viewed automaticly as more advantaged than a kid in e same boat that was darker. I don't harbor any resentment about what they received. I do harbor some about the perception that white = doesn't really need help.

[momma2three]

That was interesting--thanks for the link!

 

Something caught my eye (well, many things, but here's one):

 

"Students are still tracked based on color," she added. "They are often put in low level classes based on the whims of an administrator."

 

That quote is from Tammy Johnson, "program director of the Oakland, Calif.-based ERASE Initiative, a national public policy program that works on issues of race and public education."

 

I read that and it leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth. Who are all these administrators whimsically placing students in low level classes simply because they are Hispanic or black? And this is supposed to be happening in California as well, I assume since they are based in Oakland?

 

**Oh, and good night! Hopefully we can continue in the morning, I'm enjoying the conversation and learning some things.

 

I'm only this far, but there was a lawsuit about this in my town in New Jersey when I was growing up. It was brought by a black substitute teacher who worked in the schools and noticed that although it was a very diverse town, the lower reading groups were almost all black, and the upper reading groups were almost all white. This was so obvious, I remember even noticing it as a child but just thinking it was normal (how awful is that?). The district settled out of court, and I don't think the school actually changed the way it did anything.

[mirth]

So stupid, so broken ,on so many levels. This is the assumption of the complainers: "a single-test admittance policy [necessary to attend a prestigious school] they say is racially discriminatory". If this were a problem, then wouldn't multi-level, multi-year programs necessary to address life as an adult that are racially discriminatory be an orders of magnitude worse systemic problem?

 

Here is nothing new, but not fun for scoring school board re-election points: High school dropouts racial composites are inversely proportional to the Stuyvesant admission proportions. And yet no one screams about how the entire system has failed scores. Worst, there are no virtually no programs to re-engage these youth.

 

So it's no problem that dropouts largely draw from a certain group, but it is a problem and a shocker that gifted classes don't?

 

Come to think of it, some other elite high school program are highly discriminatory along these lines... varsity basketball, varsity football.

[Rebecca VA]

Why is everyone (not just us) talking about this problem, and no one doing anything? Are there no math scholars and engineers willing to tutor these kids in the evenings? I'd love to see a volunteer program designed to match STEM graduates with aspiring young students.

 

Last year my daughter participated in a middle school girls' STEM competition sponsored by a local engineering firm and hosted by a nearby girls' school. It was outstanding! Other than the cost of the prizes (the most generous of which was an iPad), I don't think the overall cost of the whole day was very high. Most of the adults involved just volunteered their time.

 

Why can't activities like these be held in the poorer neighborhoods of New York?

[kiana]

I wouldn't have a clue because I see people of all skin colors achieving AND failing all the time. Have you never seen a stupid white person, a stupid Asian person, or a smart Latino/a person or a smart black person? Or are all your worst stereotypes only ever confirmed? .

 

What on earth did I say to convince you that I thought white/asian kids were smart and the rest were stupid?

 

The issue (and sorry for the sarcasm, apparently it got a little lost) was that minority kids with GOOD test scores were being put in the lower tracks, whereas the non-minority kids with BAD test scores were being put into the upper tracks.

[Murphy101]

Why is everyone (not just us) talking about this problem, and no one doing anything? Are there no math scholars and engineers willing to tutor these kids in the evenings? I'd love to see a volunteer program designed to match STEM graduates with aspiring young students.

 

Last year my daughter participated in a middle school girls' STEM competition sponsored by a local engineering firm and hosted by a nearby girls' school. It was outstanding! Other than the cost of the prizes (the most generous of which was an iPad), I don't think the overall cost of the whole day was very high. Most of the adults involved just volunteered their time.

 

Why can't activities like these be held in the poorer neighborhoods of New York?

 

 

One, it's not a new York problem. It's a national problem.

 

Two, it's hard to have a math competition with middle schoolers who struggle with basic arithmetic.

 

Three, disadvantaged kids don't stay after school or go to after school events. It requires transport, no after school responsibilities (baby sitting until a parent comes home or whatever), they have a peer system that ridicules bettering themselves academicly.

 

Four, unions sometimes don't allow it. Only real teachers should be teaching/tutoring. Training and background checks and crappy materials are discouraging to many who are interested. (can you imagine the frustration a mathematician or enginneer would have trying to tutor a kid in a new maths class?!)

 

There are a lot of red tape and logistical blocks to concrete practical solutions.

[cin]

:iagree:

We have friends who barely speak English, yet their kids are winning awards and competitions in middle school even though the kids came to this country at age 7 and 8 without any English skills.

 

I have a friend who adopted a child from Russia when he was 10-12 yrs old. He's ACING his High School English classes; reading, grammar and writing.

[Rebecca VA]

Martha, this is going to sound awful, but you just can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped -- or who isn't going to make sacrifices to help their own children. Many of the things you listed can be overcome. Students who are desperate to go to the STEM schools have to be willing to ignore ridicule. Their parents have to make transportation and babysitting arrangements to make it possible for their children to attend special classes.

 

If the students and parents are too stuck in the mire of their nonproductive ways, no one can help them out. They'll just keep sinking back. They have to really, really want to work hard, just as students from more advantaged families have to be willing to work hard. Those schools are not a shoo-in for anyone, rich or poor.

 

(P.S. My own dad overcame horrible poverty and an alcoholic father who didn't support his family to become captain of his high school's football team and later a sought-after, extremely successful businessman. He did not wait around for people to feel sorry for him and offer him things. He just put a smile on his face and worked twice as hard as his wealthier friends.)

[Nestof3]

Still, the truth of the matter is that those without great grades and high SAT scores just don't get into competitive schools. If the student cannot excel at high school, he still has many opportunities to better his education without the SAT scores being deemed racially biased.

 

So many people have good jobs that did not attend top-notch schools.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think anything is going to change until the students' family and friends start to change.

 

I see it with my own family members who are white. We all came from the same impoverished relatives -- grandmother orphaned because her father died in a hurricane and her mother died of malnutrition. The family endured horrible poverty and an efucation level of a sixth grader. My cousin got pregnant at 16, had two more kids from two different men. Their family life has been completely unstable. The mom blames everyone. She thinks my brother and I just got lucky. Our kids are not living like her kids. She started a cycle that will most likely continue. She blew off education just like her kids are. She made a disaster of her life.

 

My grandmother spent her life giving to my cousin. My dad ended up paying for my grandmother's stuff because she was spending her money on my cousin. She spent her life trying to help her family in many ways, and she squandered it every time. All four adults/teens in her family have iPhones with data plans but complain to me that they cannot afford school supplies. They have them donated. They have all paid for multiple tatoos. They already have publicly funded education, publicly-funded health care, etc. But we are just supposed to keep giving more. We are just supposed to pretend their grades are better -- give them money for college when they have not even been able to graduate high school?

 

You actually think someone can just come in and break the cycle? Giving her kids extra points in the SAT is really going to break the cycle?

 

The lack of understanding about the systemic, cultural, and lived FAIL for a significant percentage of failing students makes this conversation impossible.

 

The answers suggested assume facts not in evidence; they assume realities and opportunties that are not present in these family cultures for generations.

 

You are talking about human beings the same age, who should be attending school according to western culture. The comparisons end there.

 

Academic fail - and the bias related to it referenced in this thread - are not situations in which if you "want it" bad enough, you can have it. It is not a "pull yourself up by your bootstrap" situation (horrible metaphor anyway in terms of effectiveness).

 

These kids were not failed in high school or Jr. high. They were failed before conception. The idea that if they (or their parents) wanted it, some phonics and good books and trained STEM teachers will take care of the problem is PART of the problem.

 

You can't fix this problem with academic theories. You need to fix the problem first - and it will take generations and pervasive reform. Eventually, academics could help, but academics are not the problem.

 

This thread, and the assertions in it (i.e. personal responsibility) make me sad. It's like putting purfume on a pile of manure.

Edited October 3, 2012 by nestof3

[AngelaNYC]

One thing I wanted to clarify about NYC public high schools: There are about 400 public high schools in NYC. The 8 specialized schools are the only ones who require the one test score for entry. These are for the top students, usually the gifted ones who want nothing else than to go here.

 

There are about 100 other public high schools that are excellent and have standard admission requirements (grades, attendance, etc). These school show great test scores and very high graduation rates. These are open to all students in NYC.

 

Then there are about 200 schools that are "good" or average - on par with the typical US public high school. These have honors and AP classes and average graduation rates and test scores. These are also open to all NYC students.

 

And there are about 100 schools that aren't so great. It usually doesn't have anything to do with the teachers and resources, but the neighborhoods, the students' attitudes towards learning, and parental involvement. I'm not sure why some families would pick these, but several of them close down every year.

 

So please don't think that NYC only has 8 "good" schools for the 300K+ high schoolers here. The beauty of our school system is that all students can apply to just about any of the high schools (there are only a small few that are zoned or give priority to your borough). NYC is only 26 square miles. Every student has access to public transportation and gets a free metrocard. (My dd goes to the school of her choice and takes 2 trains - about 45 minutes - to get there). Academically inclined kids pick the top academic schools. Performers choose the performing arts schools. Budding chefs, architects, film-makers, journalists, etc., have their pick of schools focused on that interest. Insideschools.org is a website that gives all the stats on every school in NYC. Almost all the schools have a open house in the fall where students and parents can visit and see if it's what they want. It really is very fair and there are free resources everywhere to help you choose and get into the schools you want. Nowhere else in the US have can you find such a great amount of school choice.

[Haiku]

He did not wait around for people to feel sorry for him and offer him things.

 

I really hate it that it's assumed that people who don't succeed just want things handed to them. It's so astronomically more complicated than that. The types of things that many of these kids have to overcome are really nearly impossible for a kid with little support to overcome. Yes, the rare few do, but that's why they are held up as noteworthy: they are rare. It doesn't make them better people, it just makes them better able to navigate a horrendous system.

 

Kids should not have to overcome a terrible educational environment in order to succeed. School should be part of the solution, not the problem. I simply cannot believe that there are people who are blaming CHILDREN for their life circumstances and just saying, "Well, if they want it they have to work hard and if they don't they have no one to blame but themselves." What a convenient way to sidestep responsibility for fellow citizens, and how emblematic of the whole twisted attitude that is pervading our society today.

 

Bottom line: if you send some kids to sh!tty schools and some to good schools, you are condemning the vast majority of the kids in sh!tty schools. There's no way around it.

 

Tara

[Pink Fairy]

I'm only this far, but there was a lawsuit about this in my town in New Jersey when I was growing up. It was brought by a black substitute teacher who worked in the schools and noticed that although it was a very diverse town, the lower reading groups were almost all black, and the upper reading groups were almost all white. This was so obvious, I remember even noticing it as a child but just thinking it was normal (how awful is that?). The district settled out of court, and I don't think the school actually changed the way it did anything.

 

If they weren't segregated by race, but by reading level, how is that racist? Each student is an individual, it's not helping them if they are in the wrong reading level just to make things appear properly diverse. If Joe is a great reader, do you think his teacher looks at him and thinks, "Joe is black and even though he's a good reader he needs to stay in the turtle reading group--he would fail in the rabbit group." Maybe there are a few, but I don't think very many teachers think that way.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I really hate it that it's assumed that people who don't succeed just want things handed to them. It's so astronomically more complicated than that. The types of things that many of these kids have to overcome are really nearly impossible for a kid with little support to overcome. Yes, the rare few do, but that's why they are held up as noteworthy: they are rare. It doesn't make them better people, it just makes them better able to navigate a horrendous system.

 

Kids should not have to overcome a terrible educational environment in order to succeed. School should be part of the solution, not the problem. I simply cannot believe that there are people who are blaming CHILDREN for their life circumstances and just saying, "Well, if they want it they have to work hard and if they don't they have no one to blame but themselves." What a convenient way to sidestep responsibility for fellow citizens, and how emblematic of the whole twisted attitude that is pervading our society today.

 

Bottom line: if you send some kids to sh!tty schools and some to good schools, you are condemning the vast majority of the kids in sh!tty schools. There's no way around it.

 

Tara

 

Exactly.

it is hard to pull yourself up by your bootstraps when you don't even have a pair of boots.

 

The white privilege evident in some of these posts would irritate me if it didn't make me so sad.

[Haiku]

I have a friend who adopted a child from Russia when he was 10-12 yrs old. He's ACING his High School English classes; reading, grammar and writing.

 

:iagree:

 

There are so many things that go into the mix: the child's genetic make-up, the child's personality, the child's life circumstances, the family's education level, the family's involvement in the child's education, the school the child attends, the life stressors the child has to deal with, nutritional status, health status, neighborhood environment ... It's really impossible to tease out just one or two factors and pin all the responsibility/blame on them.

 

I have a child who was adopted from an orphanage at age 11. She has a chronic illness that affects her cognitively as well as an impoverished background. She was adopted into a family that highly values education and fought to get her all sorts of services: counseling, IEP, tutoring, etc. We made sure she got into the most demanding high school in the city. Her achievement is not level across the board. She failed two classes as a sophomore but was accepted into a prestigious medical internship after her junior year. Her ACT score is abysmal but she has the former governor of our state as a college reference because of her outstanding performance in a year-long weekly internship class he taught. Her English language skills are and will likely remain, due to her cognitive/learning issues, lacking, but she is an intelligent child. She is a horrible test taker but a bright, hardworking kid. Luckily she has a family who has fought for her. I was a social worker pre-kids. I know how to work the system and it's STILL frustrating for me to deal with the convoluted cr@p you have to deal with to get your kid help. For someone who didn't know how to work the system or appeal decisions or that no doesn't always mean no ... how can you blame someone who has the door shut in their face and doesn't know there are ways to open it?

 

I'm getting angrier and angrier as I read this thread and see people reducing such a complex societal issue into one of "those who try and those who don't (won't)."

 

Tara

[ChocolateReignRemix]

If they weren't segregated by race, but by reading level, how is that racist? Each student is an individual, it's not helping them if they are in the wrong reading level just to make things appear properly diverse. If Joe is a great reader, do you think his teacher looks at him and thinks, "Joe is black and even though he's a good reader he needs to stay in the turtle reading group--he would fail in the rabbit group." Maybe there are a few, but I don't think very many teachers think that way.

 

 

It DOES happen. That isn't the exact thinking, but yes, stereotypes and teacher perceptions do come into play frequently.

[SKL]

The passive/aggressive hyperbole aside, we are not talking about the same thing. And I don't think the fail is "manure education"; it is unfortunately more pervasive and entrenched than that. I don't think "they" are hopeless but I do think the ideas and opinions bantered around this thread are superficial at best and in some cases, insulting.

 

The ability to access and utilize education requires resources beyond books and teachers. It requires a decent prenatal experience, parents with a GED or better, lack of gangs or need to join one, breakfast, lunch, dinner, medical and dental care, sleep, and parents who are able to access the same. That is just the start of the list.

 

Your comment is the most insulting of all, to those of us who were not born into the luxuries you describe and were thankfully not written off as hopeless before we took our first breath. :glare:

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Your comment is the most insulting of all, to those of us who were not born into the luxuries you describe and were thankfully not written off as hopeless before we took our first breath. :glare:

 

That isn't what she implied and you know it.

[SKL]

I used to tutor kids in remedial reading. In my first assignment, the teacher told me that the AA kids came into 1st at a disadvantage because their parents chose not to send them to KG. (It was legal to do so in my state then.) In 1st grade their test scores qualified them for remedial reading, but in the 2nd grade, some of them tested out well above average. Naturally. They were still young enough to have a good school experience going forward.

 

Now some of the AA kids I tutored were not so lucky, because they had sickle-cell anemia which left them with little energy to apply themselves at school. You know, sickle-cell anemia ought to be sued because it's totally racist. No denying that.

 

I will not deny that racist teachers exist, but a difference between races in results isn't automatically caused by racism/bias.

[SKL]

That isn't what she implied and you know it.

 

She also made a previous statement to the effect that all these kids are doomed before birth and it will take generations to fix that.

 

I absolutely believe she means that, and she ought to consider what she's really saying about the human spirit (or maybe just the AA or Hispanic human spirit).

[Haiku]

Your comment is the most insulting of all, to those of us who were not born into the luxuries you describe and were thankfully not written off as hopeless before we took our first breath. :glare:

 

Oh come on ... Joanne is not saying that. My son was not born into those luxuries. He lived in an orphanage for two years. He was adopted into the family that I described in my previous post about my daughter. My son really struggles with learning disabilities that I believe were caused by prenatal health/nutrition and malnutrition/neglect he suffered in the orphanage. (His dental records show that he was malnourished even in the womb.)

 

I DON'T write my son off. Lucky for him he is in a family that has him in all kinds of therapies. Lucky for him he is in a family that even knows he NEEDS the therapies.

 

SKL, you seem to be reducing the entire issue down to "who works the hardest." THAT is insulting to people who have or whose kids have worked very hard and still weren't able to get ahead. Do you really believe that ALL who work hard get ahead? Or that all who don't ... don't? Do you not believe that racism is alive and well these days?

 

Tara

[Nestof3]

I really hate it that it's assumed that people who don't succeed just want things handed to them. It's so astronomically more complicated than that. The types of things that many of these kids have to overcome are really nearly impossible for a kid with little support to overcome. Yes, the rare few do, but that's why they are held up as noteworthy: they are rare. It doesn't make them better people, it just makes them better able to navigate a horrendous system.

 

Kids should not have to overcome a terrible educational environment in order to succeed. School should be part of the solution, not the problem. I simply cannot believe that there are people who are blaming CHILDREN for their life circumstances and just saying, "Well, if they want it they have to work hard and if they don't they have no one to blame but themselves." What a convenient way to sidestep responsibility for fellow citizens, and how emblematic of the whole twisted attitude that is pervading our society today.

 

Bottom line: if you send some kids to sh!tty schools and some to good schools, you are condemning the vast majority of the kids in sh!tty schools. There's no way around it.

 

Tara

 

And yet really the reason the schools are horrible has more to do with the people in them and around them.

[Lovin Learnin]

I used to tutor kids in remedial reading. In my first assignment, the teacher told me that the AA kids came into 1st at a disadvantage because their parents chose not to send them to KG. (It was legal to do so in my state then.) In 1st grade their test scores qualified them for remedial reading, but in the 2nd grade, some of them tested out well above average. Naturally. They were still young enough to have a good school experience going forward.

 

Now some of the AA kids I tutored were not so lucky, because they had sickle-cell anemia which left them with little energy to apply themselves at school. You know, sickle-cell anemia ought to be sued because it's totally racist. No denying that.

 

I will not deny that racist teachers exist, but a difference between races in results isn't automatically caused by racism/bias.

 

My dd is not in school and she is AA. Does that automatically put her at a disadvantage? Her talent search scores would say otherwise. Automatically assuming a child is at a disadvantage because the parents chose not to utilize public school kindergarten is racist.

[Haiku]

And yet really the reason the schools are horrible has more to do with the people in them and around them.

 

Yes. Bad schools are bad because they are populated with/surrounded by bad people. Yup. That's it.

 

:banghead: :cursing: :willy_nilly:

 

Are you kidding me? You really believe that?

 

In our state, school funding is based on property taxes. Bad schools aren't bad because the families suck. Bad schools are bad because they have the least money. They have cr@ppy, old facilities, cr@ppy, old materials, and cr@ppy, inexperienced teachers because the ones who demand more money and a better environment won't work in cr@ppy, underfunded schools that lack basic materials and pay them a pittance.

 

Our school district is routinely one of the worst in the state. It's not because the people in my city are bad people, and I am honestly gobsmacked at your hubris in suggesting otherwise.

 

I guess Mitt Romney does have his finger right on the pulse of the American spirit. A huge proportion of our populace is, apparently, not our problem.

 

Revolting.

 

Tara

[Nestof3]

On a side note, anyone watch the charter school documentaries on Netflix? Anyone know how those chosen for the lottery are doing now?