Not Loving Lively Art of Writing

[mom31257]

Dd and I are not enjoying LAOW, especially the actual assignments and topics provided. She is in Chapter 3. I personally don't like the vocabulary assignment at all. Complaining in sentences doesn't seem like a good use of time. The topics for the essay are nothing that she has any true experience with or opinion on since she's not in school. Those are the situations when she struggles most to write an essay, forming opinions when you don't already have one.

 

I own The Elegant Essay, so I'm wondering if I should just change the assignments in LAOW and try to stick with the method, or drop it and go with TEE.

[elegantlion]

Dd and I are not enjoying LAOW, especially the actual assignments and topics provided. She is in Chapter 3. I personally don't like the vocabulary assignment at all. Complaining in sentences doesn't seem like a good use of time. The topics for the essay are nothing that she has any true experience with or opinion on since she's not in school. Those are the situations when she struggles most to write an essay, forming opinions when you don't already have one.

 

 

 

I'm curious about the bolded too. Invention is the hardest part for ds. We're using WWS, which provides the topic, yet I wanted to try LAOW later this year. I was looking through the book this week and wondered about the topics. I have another book that deals more with Invention (but it's a college text) and wondered if I should modify that and go through it first.

[mom31257]

I'm curious about the bolded too. Invention is the hardest part for ds. We're using WWS, which provides the topic, yet I wanted to try LAOW later this year. I was looking through the book this week and wondered about the topics. I have another book that deals more with Invention (but it's a college text) and wondered if I should modify that and go through it first.

 

May I ask what the college text is? I am most concerned for her in this aspect because of the writing on tests such as SAT. I feel that it would be easy for me to come up with opinions on the spur of the minute because I realize those kinds of assignments are just trying to see if you can put good sentences and paragraphs together, not learn your personal opinion or moral code. I worry that her experience in life is limited because of us homeschooling in a small, fairly boring community.

[WishboneDawn]

We had the same issue with LAoW but choose to deal with it by simply using our own topics. For chapter 2 my daughter wrote a thesis paragraph that was about her favorite video game. I alo plan to use some of her history and literature readings as soures for topics.

 

I'm not that concerned with vocabulary as she's already doing Jensens Vocabulary in her free time but again, I'd simply revise the assignments a bit.

[elegantlion]

May I ask what the college text is? I am most concerned for her in this aspect because of the writing on tests such as SAT. I feel that it would be easy for me to come up with opinions on the spur of the minute because I realize those kinds of assignments are just trying to see if you can put good sentences and paragraphs together, not learn your personal opinion or moral code. I worry that her experience in life is limited because of us homeschooling in a small, fairly boring community.

 

It's called The Inventive Writer. I've skimmed it and for the price I figured I could use portions at least. It was recommended here, I believe, as an option for learners who are more visual-spatial or right-brained.

[BibleBeltCatholicMom]

Oh my goodness! We just love Lively Art of Writing!

 

We never, ever, do the assignments as listed in the book, though. In fact, I don't even know why she put them because in chapter one (?) she writes at length about knowing about your subject, having an opinion or forming one, and having knowledge about it and being able to defend it.

 

My daughter doesn't care about any of her topics and we didn't even know what drag racing was until we looked it up.

 

We are on ch 4 (? -- structure beginning with the introductory paragraph) and my daughter's most recent essay was about whether her recent theatre experience would be considered suitable for a Christian. My daughter never, ever, ever, writes about silverware, drag racing, or home ec b/c she just couldn't care less about those things and in some cases knows absolutely nothing about them. Much less has she formed a controversial opinion about them. Nor does she care to.

 

I teach writing to my daughter and her friend using this book. The friend's recent essay was over whether cats make good pets in homes with small children. She cares.

 

For their last essay before that I asked them to choose a topic about which they disagree and then write opposing viewpts. The chose camping b/c we L.O.V.E camping and go as often as we can. They took a trip last summer and the poor girl felt every moment was torture. As far as I know, the friend has no interest in silverware and I know that neither she nor her mother know what drag racing is b/c we've discussed that.

 

The friend does some of the vocab work. We use the classical roots vocab program and b/t that and my daughter already knowing most of the wds in the LAoW, we don't bother.

 

My advice: forget about drag racing, et c. and let your students choose their own topics based on what they care about. I haven't yet assigned topics, myself, but have asked them to come up with them. This week, however, I will assign my daughter's topic. We also plan to use some of the SAT essay prompts but later after we have gotten a bit further in.

 

Anyway, I love LAoW and hope these ideas help!

[WishboneDawn]

Oh my goodness! We just love Lively Art of Writing!

 

We never, ever, do the assignments as listed in the book, though. In fact, I don't even know why she put them because in chapter one (?) she writes at length about knowing about your subject, having an opinion or forming one, and having knowledge about it and being able to defend it.

 

Yup. It's too good a book to let the topic choices keep a person from using it.

[Jen the RD]

Hi Amy,

I haven't used LOAW so I have NO experience to draw from to help you, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Are you and dd getting any helpful info from the reading? If so, then perhaps just reading the book straight through and taking notes would be more useful. Then use your own assignments across your other subjects (lit, history, science, etc) as other posters have mentioned. If you are concerned about how dd will handle SAT essay prompts, then what about really diving into the writing section of the College Board's Official SAT guide. There's some great tips written to the student which help them understand how they evaluate the essay. To me, knowing that makes writing the essay a little easier.

 

I toyed with using LOAW for my dd, but decided to use SWB's recommendation for The New Oxford Guide to Writing by Thomas Kane and finish R&S English 8. (We got a little behind in this series.) I chose the Kane book over the LOAW for no other reason than I liked the writing style and practicality of it for us. I don't think one is better than another--it's more a matter of personal preference. Dd is also working through the SAT book, so for 9th grade, I think we have plenty to work with. I keep reminding dd that writing is hard, but step #1 is to just get the words on the paper, THEN come back and edit, refine, edit some more, and polish. Through this process, speed WILL come, just like in reading. Really, what I have discovered about writing with both of my dc is that *I* need to give them a lot of attention and help in the process of writing. It is NOT a subject that I can hand over to them. It really is a mentoring process.

 

Sorry for the ramblings; I hope there was something in this post that was useful. ;)

 

Jennifer

[elegantlion]

I don't know if this is an issue with the OP, but it has historically been an issue with ds, coming up with something to write about. He's full of wonderful opinions, yet if the writing assignment is not dictated he tends to freeze up. Having something to write about eliminates the frustration of that invention portion.

 

So even if LAOW is helpful in the structure of writing, what do you use to build the skill of invention? I teeter back and forth on whether to continue with the structure portion with assigned writing, as in WWS or LAOW, or to stop and work on the invention then go back to structure.

[BibleBeltCatholicMom]

Yup. It's too good a book to let the topic choices keep a person from using it.

 

WishboneDawn, I agree with you 100%. This book teaches the essay exactly in a way that agrees with everything I feel is true about this topic.

 

One thing I could never stand is rigidity in writing. Once you've handed in the outline no changing; once you've writting the into, you're locked in. I love her writing style, her respect for change and fluidity, and her devotion to truth.

[WishboneDawn]

I don't know if this is an issue with the OP, but it has historically been an issue with ds, coming up with something to write about. He's full of wonderful opinions, yet if the writing assignment is not dictated he tends to freeze up. Having something to write about eliminates the frustration of that invention portion.

 

So even if LAOW is helpful in the structure of writing, what do you use to build the skill of invention? I teeter back and forth on whether to continue with the structure portion with assigned writing, as in WWS or LAOW, or to stop and work on the invention then go back to structure.

 

We do a lot of discussion. Ch. 2 (I think) deals with finding five facts about a topic and then changing those into thesis statements so Catherine and I sat down and tackled several topics from dogs to Gilgamesh. We found five facts for each and then came up with the statements. It was basically part of the writing assignment but she needed more practice, some leading questions and the reassurance that even the most obvious facts and thesis statements needed to be written down and considered.

 

Once she can state something verbally I get her to write it down. I think her issue is that she's always thinking ahead, thinking something has to be more difficult or meaningful or whatever and she's always suspicious when something seems simple and straightforward and is afraid to present that to me as a solution or answer. So getting her to list 5 facts about dogs is like pulling teeth because she's reluctant to say things like, "they are furry." Funnily enough, with more specific and seemingly difficult topics, like Gilgamesh, she does much better.

 

Myself, I don't want to separate out invention and structure simply because she's in grade 9 already and I'm getting tired of teaching writing as a subject. :D I just want her to write! So hopefully this is our last writing program. She'll still be reading things like The Elements of Style but after this year I'm hoping all her writing will be within history, literature, etc.

Edited September 29, 2012 by WishboneDawn

[WishboneDawn]

Just another thought on invention and structure. I think part of invention is a student having confidence, maturity and experience. I don't want to wait for that. Seems preferable to me to give them the structure, the template, so that they know what to do once they get to the point where invention comes easier.

[elegantlion]

We do a lot of discussion. Ch. 2 (I think) deals with finding five facts about a topic and then changing those into thesis statements so Catherine and I sat down and tackled several topics from dogs to Gilgamesh. We found five facts for each and then came up with the statements. It was basically part of the writing assignment but she needed more practice, some leading questions and the reassurance that even the most obvious facts and thesis statements needed to be written down and considered.

 

Once she can state something verbally I get her to write it down. I think her issue is that she's always thinking ahead, thinking something has to be more difficult or meaningful or whatever and she's always suspicious when something seems simple and straightforward and is afraid to present that to me as a solution or answer. So getting her to list 5 facts about dogs is like pulling teeth because she's reluctant to say things like, "they are furry." Funnily enough, with more specific and seemingly difficult topics, like Gilgamesh, she does much better.

 

Myself, I don't want to separate out invention and structure simply because she's in grade 9 already and I'm getting tired of teaching writing as a subject. :D I just want her to write! So hopefully this is our last writing program. She'll still be reading things like The Elements of Style but after this year I'm hoping all her writing will be within history, literature, etc.

 

Yes, you would think I was extracting teeth when it comes to him coming up with his own ideas. I write easily, he doesn't. That gap in my ability and his has been a source of contention for a few years. He does much better with something like WWS where the structure is taught within a given topic. That's my hesitation with LAOW is I don't want to go back to the daily arguments about writing topics if we decide not to use the given ideas.

 

Sorry, kind of a hijack. :blush:

[FloridaLisa]

Dd and I are not enjoying LAOW, especially the actual assignments and topics provided. She is in Chapter 3.

 

We had the same issue with LAoW but choose to deal with it by simply using our own topics. For chapter 2 my daughter wrote a thesis paragraph that was about her favorite video game. I alo plan to use some of her history and literature readings as soures for topics.

 

Despite all its recommendations here, I'm not that crazy about LAOW. We used it for a semester, and I found the essay topics dry and boring. Like Dawn, we substituted topics that my kids cared about. I also think my dd needed more help with structure, format, transitions, etc. LAOW was too bare bones. For her, not a natural writer but now a solid writer, a year with IEW worked wonders. I don't think the Elegant Essay was out at the point.

 

Lisa

[ThisIsTheDay]

Based on your sig line, I wouldn't think your dd would need to do the vocabulary exercises. I just had my dd define the words but not spend time writing sentences with them.

 

There's no need to totally believe your topics in this chapter (3). You are to write thesis sentences for three different topics, with an opposing view on each. My dd made up opinions and then made up reasons to back up her statements. It didn't need to be a serious topic to get the point of the lesson.

 

If you are comfortable in understanding the LAOW method, I'd change the assignments. We loved this book last year, and I've already pulled it out to help my younger ds with his writing assignments this year.

 

We found it far more user friendly and succinct than Elegant Essay, but we tried using EE before the extra workbook was available (or whatever is now sold as a supplement).

 

If it's not enjoyable though, you are definitely on the right track to switch things around to make it work for you!

[mom31257]

 

There's no need to totally believe your topics in this chapter (3). You are to write thesis sentences for three different topics, with an opposing view on each. My dd made up opinions and then made up reasons to back up her statements. It didn't need to be a serious topic to get the point of the lesson.

 

 

 

This is part of the problem. She shuts down and has major writer's block when needing to make up opinions. She also over thinks her opinions finding exceptions or reasons that any given topic would be impossible to do in the method they are stating. I think part of it is she's quite a perfectionist, to the point that she wants writing to be right the first time and not need revision. Whose doesn't need revision??

 

Thanks for all the advice everyone! I decided to keep doing the book and change the assignments, so this afternoon we worked on finding other topics for the essay in chapter 3. It took a really, really long time to get her to settle on a topic. Some girls give drama over boys, clothes, makeup. Not mine...it's over school. I guess they have to get it out somewhere! LOL!

 

She wrote the essay this evening, and gave it to me lamenting about how bad it was. Dh and I read it, and of course, it could use some work, but it's rather good, having the potential to be a great essay. I usually try to edit with her, so we'll work on that next week while beginning Ch. 4.

[BibleBeltCatholicMom]

I don't know if this is an issue with the OP, but it has historically been an issue with ds, coming up with something to write about. He's full of wonderful opinions, yet if the writing assignment is not dictated he tends to freeze up. Having something to write about eliminates the frustration of that invention portion.

 

So even if LAOW is helpful in the structure of writing, what do you use to build the skill of invention? I teeter back and forth on whether to continue with the structure portion with assigned writing, as in WWS or LAOW, or to stop and work on the invention then go back to structure.

 

LVP says this in the What is an Essay chapter (1)":

 

"'What shall I write about?' It is the universal question, a kind of midnight howl of anguish, loudest and most hopeless the night before an essay assignment is due."

 

I think that's funny.

 

This is what we do. I originally read it in Brave Writer when we were trying to "heal" from IEW. Ugh . . . what tortured memories!

 

LVP encourages students to write about what they know. I agree with this. However, sometimes students have to write about an assigned topic, say, the Civil War or Louis Pasteur. If it is a topic my girl knows a lot about out (Religion, Fiddling, how to fix dolls' hair, mythology, et c) I usually don't need her to do any reading on the topic but I might encourage her to read something to see if she learns something new (which she often does).

 

If it is a topic that I have assigned for school I have her read, and read, and read about her subject. To take the Civil War example, I had her read our History material, material from several reference books, a couple of things from the geography reference, and a few books from the library.

 

The writer must have a deep well of knowledge to draw from!

 

Only after my daughter has read a good deal of information is in her mind, I have her sit down and have her do a Topic Funnel for 5 minutes. 5 miinutes is probably longer than you think! The process is something like this:

 

Write everything you know about this topic.

uh, civil war, men, men soldiers, women soldiers, women spies, disease, on and on for 5 minutes.

 

My daughter thinks 5 minutes is too long but I tell you truly, excellent ideas have come AFTER she coulnd't think of anything else to write.

 

After the first go, select a topic from above to send through the funnel again.

 

women in the civil war

women's official roles, women's unofficial roles, women's downright sneaky roles, women spies, sneaky girl spies during the war, nurses, famous nurses, what's her name,

 

again I"m a stickler for the 5 minutes.

 

Here you could select a topic for the funnel or for the paper.

 

When you do get to the topic you like, then subject it to the chapter one stuff in LAoW. You said your kiddo has plenty of opinions so then you just go for it!

 

By the way, when my daughter can't decide on a topic when she's writing about what she does know, she still does the topic funnel sometimes. I find that she uses it more when it is an assigned topic.

 

Oh, the topic funnel also works for research papers and debate topics.

 

hth

[BibleBeltCatholicMom]

This is part of the problem. She shuts down and has major writer's block when needing to make up opinions. She also over thinks her opinions finding exceptions or reasons that any given topic would be impossible to do in the method they are stating. I think part of it is she's quite a perfectionist, to the point that she wants writing to be right the first time and not need revision. Whose doesn't need revision??

 

Thanks for all the advice everyone! I decided to keep doing the book and change the assignments, so this afternoon we worked on finding other topics for the essay in chapter 3. It took a really, really long time to get her to settle on a topic. Some girls give drama over boys, clothes, makeup. Not mine...it's over school. I guess they have to get it out somewhere! LOL!

 

She wrote the essay this evening, and gave it to me lamenting about how bad it was. Dh and I read it, and of course, it could use some work, but it's rather good, having the potential to be a great essay. I usually try to edit with her, so we'll work on that next week while beginning Ch. 4.

 

Well, about making up opinions . . . they don't really need to be made up. Anyone can have an opinion on anything. Even if the opinion is that it's ridiculous to care about such a thing, it is still an opinion. An opinion is more fun to write about and defend if it is an opinion about something she really cares about but that isn't always an option. When the SATs roll around, she's probably going to have to write about stuff she doesn't care about.

 

A couple of years ago, my daughter and I would edit her papers together and we would mark E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G that needed to be corrected. Coincidentally, my daughter hated writing. She felt that she wasn't a good writer (though I would strenuously disagree), her learning not adequate, her opinions not worthy, et c.

 

In one particularly illustrative blow up, she wrote a paper and then got a pen and scribbled all over it and said, "There. I edited it."

 

I cried.

 

She cried.

 

We quit writing for a while.

 

My point is that no matter what I said about how wonderful the content was, how creative the story was, how ingenious the style or how positively clever some turn of phrase was, every positive word was ****ed into oblivion by all the corrections.

 

After a while we just wrote, no pressure. Then we got back at it and now I focus on one thing per paper/essay to correct AND I don't mark up her paper.

 

I look it over for the most obvious or most often repeated problem and ask her to look it up and find it in her paper. After than I expect her to get it right and she usually does.

 

Between IEW and pretty insensitive editing, we have a somewhat tortured past with writing. After we did probably an entire year of no-pressure writing we went back into serious school writing with the editing changes and my daughter fell in serious like with writing again. We spent more time working on techniques to conquer writer's block type problems (a la brave writer) and she felt this might be love. Now we are into LAoW and she L.O.V.E.S writing now!

 

She loves being able to express her opinions so much more than the regurgitation of report writing. She still has to write reports some but not too much: one/semester seems good for now.

 

My point for your daughter is that maybe the editing process is killing the creative/inventive/my opinion is valuable sense that she could be getting otherwise. Maybe not. Check with her, though.

 

You could just chose the one thing that bother you or her and just correct that. So you have to over look a dangling modifier for two weeks, you can get that next time. No big deal.

 

Maybe you'll find that she'll feel that her opinions are easier to come by and more important if you give that a whirl.

Edited September 30, 2012 by BibleBeltCatholicMom