Monica_in_Switzerland Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 My son is 5.5. He is technically K, but he is doing RS B and is reading at a 2-3gr level. I am wondering a bit about his writing. I know he's a boy and he's young... I'm wondering if I should just drop it for now? His writing is terrible! I'm using Getty Dubay... maybe I should have gone with HWOT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 How about the free Logic of English Manuscript Student Book PDF? My younger boy took longer to write nicely. We just do handwriting 10mins every day. Any longer and he gets bored. His handwriting was not pretty at five years old but it was legible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsingscrapper Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 I used HWOT with Dragon at that age. Boys do struggle with writing. It's a developmental thing as boys develop gross motor skills easier first. You might want to start with Get Set for School as it is done in crayon and will force a proper grip. Some kids, though, just aren't ready to write until they're older. Does he wear glasses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 (edited) Read Spalding's Writing Road to Reading, just to see what you think. Most libraries have it. The 6th edition is the best for cursive, but any edition is fine for manuscript. Clockletter Handwriting Instructions Letter formation videos Edited September 28, 2012 by Hunter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longnightmoon Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 My writing phobic DD is loving HWOT. We do one letter a day out of the K books. We write in rice, then the slate, and then in the workbook. I had a lot of anxiety about handwriting due to her weak fine motor issues but she is really enjoying it. Don't get me wrong, her handwriting isn't pretty but she's learning the proper way to form her letters and hold a pencil. Best of all, it isn't a struggle - yet, anyways. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica_in_Switzerland Posted September 29, 2012 Author Share Posted September 29, 2012 Ok, thank you all for the links and tips. I guess my issue is this- he has a good pencil grip, he forms his letters "correctly" once he's learned them, they just look awful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 He needs practice with you helping him out. Fine motor skills take a while in some boys. My oldest was where your son is in K, and he learned to form his letters in K and had pretty awful handwriting. This year in 3rd grade, his handwriting has actually started looking nice. For him, writing on huge lines was much more difficult to control the pencil. He does much better now that he's able to write on smaller lines. He has nice, legible writing on wide ruled paper at the moment. He's learning cursive too, and that goes from really nice to really bad very easily. I suspect he'll be like me with cursive - able to do it, but not able to make it look nice when writing with any sort of speed. There is something between my brain and cursive that just doesn't compute, no matter how much I use it. :tongue_smilie: Anyway, keep practicing the basics of the letters. Do ONE letter and see if he can make a perfect one. Or do a 2-3 letter phonogram and make a perfect one. Then work up to short words ("cat") and eventually longer words. Where he is in reading and math doesn't matter. The physical act of writing has nothing to do with that. In fact, up until 7 years old, my oldest son's hand hurt when writing very much. He was zooming through reading and math levels, but writing took the slow approach. It has come together now though. This year, he is capable of writing. Still hates it, but he can do it. ;) When working with an accelerated child like that, it's very common to have to match input to ability level and output to typical age expectations. So I would not expect a 5 year old to be doing more than working on individual letters and short words right now, working up to copying a short sentence by the end of the year. That's my goal for K (and if they surpass that early, great!). Then you give the 5 year old books at appropriate reading level, math at appropriate level, etc. That sometimes means scribing for a young child, though since you're using RS, you may not have to - there aren't very many worksheets with that, right? So you probably don't have to make a lot of adjustments. Keep handwriting sessions short, but do them every single day. Gradually increase the time. You might also go back to some pre-writing activities, like writing with a finger in salt or sand. Practice making nice letters. There is a huge difference between making a round circle in salt/sand and making a round circle with a pencil. My K'er writes pretty well, but his letters aren't beautiful yet. It's hard to keep the pencil steady while making a circle. He keeps fighting me and wanting to do capital letters instead, since they're easier (and I haven't officially taught capitals - we started with lowercase!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 My 5yo ds has always railed against writing. He's never really colored or even painted. Never had much interest in the white board or anything else like that. We're using HWOT, with the magnet pieces, chalkboard, and the whole shabang. *HE* pulls it out every morning, even on weekends. It's been huge for us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsingscrapper Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Ok, thank you all for the links and tips. I guess my issue is this- he has a good pencil grip, he forms his letters "correctly" once he's learned them, they just look awful! I had both Fury and Dragon's eyes checked. They wear reading glasses and I definitely notice a difference in the quality of their penmanship when they don't have them on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica_in_Switzerland Posted September 29, 2012 Author Share Posted September 29, 2012 When working with an accelerated child like that, it's very common to have to match input to ability level and output to typical age expectations. So I would not expect a 5 year old to be doing more than working on individual letters and short words right now, working up to copying a short sentence by the end of the year. That's my goal for K (and if they surpass that early, great!). Then you give the 5 year old books at appropriate reading level, math at appropriate level, etc. That sometimes means scribing for a young child, though since you're using RS, you may not have to - there aren't very many worksheets with that, right? So you probably don't have to make a lot of adjustments. Thank you. Yes, I think that's it, I need to think of his writing at age level, not necessarily where he is in other subjects. And yes, I chose RS for the main reason of having very little writing. Although. weirdly enough, he writes his numbers very legibly. :lol: The reason I thought maybe HWOT is because the worksheet RS uses to teach numbers has each number being written in a little rectangle with a starting dot, which looks a bit like the HWOT paper, and since he DID do well writing his numbers, maybe a similar paper type and technique might work for letters... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Ok, thank you all for the links and tips. I guess my issue is this- he has a good pencil grip, he forms his letters "correctly" once he's learned them, they just look awful! :confused: If the letters are formed correctly, how can they look awful? If you are using ball and stick type writing, are the circles circles. Are the lines straight and the right length? Did you see the circles and lines at the first link I posted? I have students draw those and call them "warm ups". Letters are formed from the circles and lines of the "warm ups". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica_in_Switzerland Posted September 29, 2012 Author Share Posted September 29, 2012 Ok, sorry, when I mean he forms them correctly, I mean he starts his "a" at 2'o'clock, goes around counterclockwise, then drops the stick down to the baseline. But they are not very round, the stick sometimes passes back through the circle, etc. His "i" is sometimes straight, sometimes crooked, sometimes sticks out past the baseline or doesn't touch it at all. Maybe I'm making a big deal out of nothing? Maybe it's normal? lol. Now I think I'm going crazy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Ok, sorry, when I mean he forms them correctly, I mean he starts his "a" at 2'o'clock, goes around counterclockwise, then drops the stick down to the baseline. But they are not very round, the stick sometimes passes back through the circle, etc. His "i" is sometimes straight, sometimes crooked, sometimes sticks out past the baseline or doesn't touch it at all. Maybe I'm making a big deal out of nothing? Maybe it's normal? lol. Now I think I'm going crazy... This situation is when I do warms ups. I remove the proper formation of circles and lines, from the writing of letters, to isolate the problem. And if it doesn't get better instantly I say we are going to do form drawing, and presto the warm ups improve instantly. I don't know why my students hate form drawing so much :lol: You don't need to go all Waldorf to steal just a smidgen of the form drawing idea. Whatever letter or warm up line is shaky, can be turned into a colorful border. You can add dots to the middle of clock letters, or outside the letters to make the border more interesting and colorful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 (edited) How well does he color and cut? What happens when he makes the letters big on a chalkboard or whiteboard, or on a piece of paper taped to the table or wall? You can also paint big letters. What kind of paper are you using? For beginners I use 2 lines of college ruled notebook paper. Then I transition them to specialty paper (if I can afford it) and then finally to wide ruled paper. Edited September 29, 2012 by Hunter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 He is only 5. I think that is normal. You are in a bit of a bind though when using curricula that is expecting a volume of writing. I would do everything I could to reduce the volume of writing and have him do his best handwriting at all times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica_in_Switzerland Posted September 29, 2012 Author Share Posted September 29, 2012 Thanks for the form drawing tip! I actually think he would enjoy that more that straight letter practice. Also, thanks to the poster who included samples. Right now, I am using Startwrite to print blank handwriting paper, but was looking at the HWOT 2 line paper and thinking about moving to it. I am going to put a picture here of something he wrote on his own time just to show where he is... And here, writing his numbers, which bizarrely, he writes quite well IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica_in_Switzerland Posted September 29, 2012 Author Share Posted September 29, 2012 In case anyone is wondering, his story says, "Once upon a time, a dragon broke his wing." :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Looks good for an early K'er to me! :) For some comparison, here's my K'er's handwriting (my writing on the left, his on the right, all over the board): And when it's not "handwriting" time... Those last 3 are where the letters were made into cars. :tongue_smilie: And yes, his grip is awful there. I'm working on it! My kids naturally thumb wrap. Sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica_in_Switzerland Posted September 29, 2012 Author Share Posted September 29, 2012 Thank you for sharing your samples! I think one of the hard parts of HSing is not knowing what normal/typical looks like. It sounds like I'm worried over nothing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Thank you for sharing your samples! I think one of the hard parts of HSing is not knowing what normal/typical looks like. It sounds like I'm worried over nothing! Yeah, thankfully, my oldest went to school for K, so I've seen typical K writing and first grade writing. First grade is when my son started to get some nice handwriting on occasion. Now his handwriting is getting nice even when writing originally. It's not perfect, but it's legible and not ugly. He's having to think less about how to write, so it's all coming together... finally. :D Now my friend has a K'er who has picture-perfect handwriting, which makes me drool, but that little girl has been writing for a while and is one of those girls born with pencil in hand. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Monica, the biggest problem I see is the paper you are using, and that the letters are not placed on the lines properly. Handwriting needs 3 lines. The middle line for the clock letters, an upper story for the tall letter parts and the uppercase letters, and a basement for the tails. When students are given double lined paper WITHOUT a space between each double line, they try to create space for the tails by making the letters shorter than the lines. Unless you heavy handedly teach him to let the tall letter parts and tails overlap like Riggs does, that paper is not a good choice. He needs to practice circle and lines and not letters. The circles should rest on the base line and reach to the dotted line. The tall lines should reach from the baseline all the way up to the next solid line (or almost). The tail lines should go all the way down to the dotted line below (or almost). I'll try and post a picture of Riggs handwriting later. You CAN use that paper, but if you do, you need to be aggressive in teaching the student to reach the lines despite how crowded it looks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica_in_Switzerland Posted September 29, 2012 Author Share Posted September 29, 2012 Hunter, what do you think about the HWOT paper that just has the middle and base lines, with a gap between for tails and tall letters? (In my first pic, he just said, "Mommy, draw some lines on here so I can write a story" and I did a rushed job). In the second pic, you see the lines of his actual HW "curriulum" which is Getty Dubay. I think I need to switch out of italics to ball and stick, and just take more time with form drawing, like you suggested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Hunter, what do you think about the HWOT paper that just has the middle and base lines, with a gap between for tails and tall letters? (In my first pic, he just said, "Mommy, draw some lines on here so I can write a story" and I did a rushed job). In the second pic, you see the lines of his actual HW "curriulum" which is Getty Dubay. I think I need to switch out of italics to ball and stick, and just take more time with form drawing, like you suggested. Yes, the second style paper is fine, if you can afford it. Otherwise use three lines of college ruled paper, like in my first sample. Notice how in the second sample the dotted line only comes 1/3 of the way up. If you draw paper, do it like that. I abhor Italic. It was a disaster for my son, especially the cursive. Italic cursive is easier for struggling students to READ, not write. It's just my OPINION, and others have different experiences, but anyone dealing with any struggle whatsoever needs to RUN from Italic. I agree. I think he needs ball and stick, and to do lots of warm ups and form drawing. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica_in_Switzerland Posted September 29, 2012 Author Share Posted September 29, 2012 Thanks for all your help! I feel like I have a plan now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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