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What level of writing do you expect by the end of 5th grade?


Homemama2
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This is for a 5th grade writing-phobic boy. ;)

 

I'm just wondering what my "goal" should be by the end of the year...

Are most 5th graders doing 3 paragraph essays? Or is it 5 paragraph essays? Or do they stick with just 1 paragraph in 5th? Also, what types of writing should they be familiar with for standardized tests (this will be our first year to take them, and while I'm not getting hung up on teaching to the test, I would like to know what will be covered.)

 

Last year we used CW Aesop. I liked it, and I have Aesop B that I might get to later this year, but first I wanted to work on writing a good, strong paragraph, because his paragraphs were nothing to brag about.

 

Next year we will do WWS, which I already have. I just want to make sure that we aren't skipping anything that 5th graders should know.

Thanks!

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I am working this out now. Ds will have finished WWS and probablypart of Wws2 although we may use another curriculum in between as a break. I wouldlike him to be able to summarize, use multiple sources well, proper references, flowing sentence structure with good variety of words, draw reader in with various perspectives, use of metaphor and simile and of course, proper spelling and punctuation.

 

I Am actually making a mind map of all the skills i want my 5th grader to acquire by the end of the year.

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My 5th grader was working through WWE4, and doing one point outlines. In 6th we started WWS1 and that was a great. He is now in WWS2 for 7th grade. We are having SUCH an easier time of it this year than with WWS1 last year. I think that he did a lot of maturing from grades 5-7. During the 6th grade year he made some really big leaps. Now, writing is so much easier for him.

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My goal is to have a 5th grader working in Climbing to Good English 3, and if they need to be in level 1 or 2, then so be it.

 

I'm most concerned if they have mastered cursive handwriting and spelling of most of the words in the Ayres Word list and have mastered the most basic sentence composition skills. Also do they know to indent a paragraph, stay with in the margins, and attempt to make each paragraph about the same topic, even if they don't have a solid topic sentence. If they can use quotation marks correctly, :hurray: but I expect to need to have a poster hanging up, for it to be done correctly.

 

Honestly if they have MASTERED the CGE 2 skills and are writing without fear and pain, I think that is fantastic. I would never place a 5th grader in most 5th grade writing texts unless they were gifted and precocious and we were not tackling classical languages and math all that seriously.

 

But, I'm known for having very different priorities that many people so, :tongue_smilie:

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I am working this out now. Ds will have finished WWS and probablypart of Wws2 although we may use another curriculum in between as a break. I wouldlike him to be able to summarize, use multiple sources well, proper references, flowing sentence structure with good variety of words, draw reader in with various perspectives, use of metaphor and simile and of course, proper spelling and punctuation.

 

I Am actually making a mind map of all the skills i want my 5th grader to acquire by the end of the year.

 

:iagree: Sounds good to me.

 

When I used to teach middle school, I wanted kids to come able to write a sentence, use varied vocabulary and sentence structures, summarize things in their own words, spell and use punctuation decently... I didn't want them necessarily to be able to write an essay or a whole story. If they could, then fine, but the other skills are more fundamental. Middle school is when you learn the essay, IMO.

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I know the PS here have the kids writing 5 paragraph essays in 3rd.

 

And it's requirements like these that lead to cursive instruction being dropped. And so many students being shuffled off to be labeled as learning disabled. When many children are barely developmentally ready to read until 8, how are they expected to write a 5 paragraph essay? Never mind the cursive.

 

When our local PS increased the standards, they also immediately increased the expulsion rate, and started encouraging older students to drop out. IEP rates skyrocketed and the pressure to put students on drugs included serious threats.

 

I wouldn't do it. I just wouldn't. Not unless the child were gifted. And maybe not even then.

 

Let's not even talk about research papers in KINDERGARTEN!! :crying:

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I wouldn't do it. I just wouldn't. Not unless the child were gifted. And maybe not even then.

 

Let's not even talk about research papers in KINDERGARTEN!! :crying:

 

:iagree: I'm not especially swayed by what kids are doing in public schools. I'd rather focus on the right building blocks.

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:iagree: I'm not especially swayed by what kids are doing in public schools. I'd rather focus on the right building blocks.

 

:iagree: There's a lack of quality.

 

My goal is to start teaching formal writing in 4th unless the child is ready the year before. We use IEW's theme-based lessons. My son started IEW in 3rd and could write 5 paragraph essays following their model in 5th.

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We will complete WWS1 this year in 5th, and then use those skills to write across the curriculum and maybe some assignments that have a creative twist to them.

 

But I expect the skills outlined in WWS1: several paragraphs incorporating chronological narratives and descriptions, more than one source when indicated, and beginning literary analysis. Varied sentence structure, proper spelling and punctuation. And later we'll be working specifically on transition between paragraphs. I'm not concerned about a certain number of paragraphs, and I'm not concerned about learning to write essays with a thesis statement or a particular format. Not yet.

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My goal is to have a 5th grader working in Climbing to Good English 3, and if they need to be in level 1 or 2, then so be it.

 

I'm most concerned if they have mastered cursive handwriting and spelling of most of the words in the Ayres Word list and have mastered the most basic sentence composition skills. Also do they know to indent a paragraph, stay with in the margins, and attempt to make each paragraph about the same topic, even if they don't have a solid topic sentence. If they can use quotation marks correctly, :hurray: but I expect to need to have a poster hanging up, for it to be done correctly.

 

Honestly if they have MASTERED the CGE 2 skills and are writing without fear and pain, I think that is fantastic. I would never place a 5th grader in most 5th grade writing texts unless they were gifted and precocious and we were not tackling classical languages and math all that seriously.

 

But, I'm known for having very different priorities that many people so, :tongue_smilie:

 

I didn't read the OP well enough to understand I was supposed to focus on the END of 5th grade. By the END of 5th grade I would want topic sentences for the paragraphs, and I would want quotation marks mastered.

 

Even though I'd want the student writing in paragraphs, these are loosely organized paragraphs without a thesis. More journaling, if you know what I mean. Make a statement, back it up, new paragraph that is indented, make a statement back it up, and so on.

 

For me the difference between the beginning of 5th and the end of 5th is the addition of the topic sentence, mastery of the quotation marks, and increasing stamina in writing. I'm afraid if I add too many rules, the student will lose his ability to work on writing stamina.

 

6th grade is when I want to work on a thesis for the first time, that the paragraphs are supposed to support. And I still want to try and not over teach this, at the expense of writing stamina. This is when I want to really work on outlining, but not yet expecting the student to write from an outline, if that makes sense.

 

7th grade is finally for the full blown 5 paragraph essay, if the outlining skills are in place.

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My dd was writing phobic to go right there with your writing phobic boy. People think it only happens to boys, hehe. Anyways, I've pretty much tried to hold to the WTM standards as my minimum, because I figured if I was doing that, I was focusing on foundations. As you see, some kids *can* turn out essays and whatnot earlier. Some of those kids might have great writing, and some might not be turning out writing quite like what you're expecting.

 

I think it's a misnomer to conclude that a writing phobic child isn't going to be a good writer. Sometimes the very things that make a child writing phobic cause him also to be more observant, more people intuitive, etc. So you can end up with this ironic situation where the very people who are most writing *phobic* also have the most interesting things to say. That's why I think a slightly delayed approach where you focus on foundations, foundations, foundations is so good with these kids. By foundations, I mean the ability to get their thoughts into words and words onto paper COMFORTABLY. For some it's going to include the ability to type. Typing can open up the world for a writing phobic child. It's going to mean teaching outlining and structure to make sure their brains actually understand structure. I haven't seen anyone here mentioning outlining, only essays. *Outlining* is one of the key things you teach in 5th per WTM. It's definitely a wise thing to do. Some kids do *not* see structure naturally and need very careful work on it to get it to click. Some kids will not do as well with linear outlines and need to go more spatial (mind-mapping, webs, try using an app).

 

When WTM says not to *force* kids into creative writing, it doesn't *exclude* doing some other types. Sometimes with these kids it's useful to do things like writing prompts or things that are a little more engaging (since outlines and narrations AREN'T necessarily, lol). I think your CW choice is right on for that age. You can even give him some creative freedom in his telling, if you wish, a la Writing Tales. (I used both CW and WT and prefer WT.)

 

So the main things I'd work on for 5th are the ability to get thoughts out comfortably, beginning outlining, and typing. If you have those, the rest will fall into place later.

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As you see, some kids *can* turn out essays and whatnot earlier. Some of those kids might have great writing, and some might not be turning out writing quite like what you're expecting.

 

I think it's a misnomer to conclude that a writing phobic child isn't going to be a good writer. Sometimes the very things that make a child writing phobic cause him also to be more observant, more people intuitive, etc. So you can end up with this ironic situation where the very people who are most writing *phobic* also have the most interesting things to say. That's why I think a slightly delayed approach where you focus on foundations, foundations, foundations is so good with these kids. By foundations, I mean the ability to get their thoughts into words and words onto paper COMFORTABLY. For some it's going to include the ability to type. Typing can open up the world for a writing phobic child. It's going to mean teaching outlining and structure to make sure their brains actually understand structure. I haven't seen anyone here mentioning outlining, only essays. *Outlining* is one of the key things you teach in 5th per WTM. It's definitely a wise thing to do. Some kids do *not* see structure naturally and need very careful work on it to get it to click. Some kids will not do as well with linear outlines and need to go more spatial (mind-mapping, webs, try using an app).

 

When WTM says not to *force* kids into creative writing, it doesn't *exclude* doing some other types. Sometimes with these kids it's useful to do things like writing prompts or things that are a little more engaging (since outlines and narrations AREN'T necessarily, lol). I think your CW choice is right on for that age. You can even give him some creative freedom in his telling, if you wish, a la Writing Tales. (I used both CW and WT and prefer WT.)

 

So the main things I'd work on for 5th are the ability to get thoughts out comfortably, beginning outlining, and typing. If you have those, the rest will fall into place later.

:iagree: My oldest was writing phobic. We took it slowly. I am very pleased with his writing now in seventh grade. We did lots of copywork early on and transitioned to IEW in fifth. My dd is a natural writer and was writing short essays in third grade easily. There is no way my ds could have done that but it doesn't seem to have made any difference to his ability to write now as a seventh grader.

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This is for a 5th grade writing-phobic boy. ;)

 

I'm just wondering what my "goal" should be by the end of the year...

Are most 5th graders doing 3 paragraph essays? Or is it 5 paragraph essays? Or do they stick with just 1 paragraph in 5th? Also, what types of writing should they be familiar with for standardized tests (this will be our first year to take them, and while I'm not getting hung up on teaching to the test, I would like to know what will be covered.)

 

Last year we used CW Aesop. I liked it, and I have Aesop B that I might get to later this year, but first I wanted to work on writing a good, strong paragraph, because his paragraphs were nothing to brag about.

 

Next year we will do WWS, which I already have. I just want to make sure that we aren't skipping anything that 5th graders should know.

Thanks!

 

I don't have grade level goals but individual child goals. Some of my kids were writing multiple paragraph reports by the end of 5th while others might have just mastered solid paragraph writing.

 

FWIW, I do not believe that essay writing is an appropriate elementary level skill. Essay writing involves creating a thesis, developing an argument, and providing supporting evidence. This is typically a high school level form of writing. I have had advanced students master essay writing in middle school, but essay writing should be built on basic writing skills. (ETA: Having 3rd graders writing essays seems to embrace what is becoming standard ps education philosophy......skip foundationals skills in a rush forward to higher skills. This is why the house of cards collapses and high school students graduate needing remediation b/c the foundation does not exist.)

 

Elementary level skills should be learning to gather notes from a source and presenting the information in a report-type format in their own words. (learning not to plagiarize.) Typically my 3rd graders are taking notes from a single source and by 5th grade they are synthesizing information from multiple sources.

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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FWIW, I do not believe that essay writing is an appropriate elementary level skill. Essay writing involves creating a thesis, developing an argument, and providing supporting evidence. This is typically a high school level form of writing. I have had advanced students master essay writing in middle school, but essay writing should be built on basic writing skills. (ETA: Having 3rd graders writing essays seems to embrace what is becoming standard ps education philosophy......skip foundationals skills in a rush forward to higher skills. This is why the house of cards collapses and high school students graduate needing remediation b/c the foundation does not exist.)

 

Junior colleges test sentence skills instead of what we think of writing skills. Students who end out being placed in junior college remedial English are placed there because they are missing the skills that are covered most heavily in grades 1-3 in many of the popular curricula here.

 

Junior colleges (as well as more rigorous schools) do a bad job of teaching Freshman English, so relying on them to teach the research paper isn't a good idea. But junior colleges are satisfied with students arriving with good sentence skills.

 

I know a lot of people here are aiming much higher than the local junior college, but...I'm not copying a PS model that is sure to land my students in remedial English, because it is PRETENDING to teach. I was just talking on the back-to-basics math thread about teachers and parents having high expectations for me, without giving me the tools to accomplish what they were demanding from me.

 

I might be WAAAAAAY too slow and steady, but what I say I'm teaching I TEACH. And the more I teach this LOOOOOW level, the more I realize just how much improvement "I" can still make in grades 1-5 English, as many of you can observe by reading my poorly written posts.

 

Yes, I know how to massacre my way through a research paper, but as I learn alongside my students, some day I'll be able to write a research paper I can be proud of, when the foundation has been better laid.

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I'm not copying a PS model that is sure to land my students in remedial English, because it is PRETENDING to teach.

 

A wee bit hyperbolic, don't you think?

 

Personally, I'm not worried AT ALL about my kids winding up in remedial English, even if I do have them writing a 5 paragraph essay at the end of 4th grade because of the stupid STAR writing test (which my DD got a perfect score on BTW).

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A wee bit hyperbolic, don't you think?

 

Personally, I'm not worried AT ALL about my kids winding up in remedial English, even if I do have them writing a 5 paragraph essay at the end of 4th grade because of the stupid STAR writing test (which my DD got a perfect score on BTW).

 

Yes, probably. On the other hand, if I had to spend time now prepping my kids for an essay test next year, then it would take time away from other skills they haven't built up yet. Totally disastrous? No. But ideal? Hardly. That's not going to be the case with all kids, though. A few might be ready for beginning essays or need less work on basic skills.

 

Basically, I think if one doesn't have to deal with testing like that, then there's absolutely no reason to try to get a third grader to write a five paragraph essay.

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A wee bit hyperbolic, don't you think?

 

Personally, I'm not worried AT ALL about my kids winding up in remedial English, even if I do have them writing a 5 paragraph essay at the end of 4th grade because of the stupid STAR writing test (which my DD got a perfect score on BTW).

 

Crimson Wife, you are such an brilliant and curious person, and it sounds like your children take after you. Not everyone has the gifts you have been given.

 

My seizures have taught me so much about learning disabilities. I was never as gifted and you, and never had the eductional opportunities that you did, but I still had gifts that others around me didn't share.

 

My seizures make me more literal and fragment my brain. I've lost a lot of context and connections, never mind all the speech issues that I'm able to hide in e-mails. And the severity of my condition waxes and wanes. I've learned that what I used to see as moral deficiencies in people is sometimes a learning disability, based on lack of connections and context. I didn't learn that till I walked in their shoes.

 

My seizures fry out spots of content and skills as well as cut connections. I have to constantly remediate what I lose. I got to experience what it was like to be an adult who coudn't do double digit division, and what it was like to have to use primary level math books. It has made me SUCH a better teacher in the long run though, than if I'd never gotten brain damage.

 

And when I "go down" I have to rely on my friends and students, the same ones that struggle so badly at 1st-5th grade level writing. They do what they can to protect me and help me though.

 

Life doesn't come wrapped up in a pretty package with a bow for everyone. We have to use what we have been given and move forward on our unique paths.

 

I had to google hyperbolic to see what it meant. I think I used to know that term, but don't even know if I did or didn't. If I were exaggerating, why would students who have been taught the 5 paragraph essay, be routinely required to take remedial English classes that only require basic sentence skills to test out of? Yes, I think I just broke a bunch of basic sentence rules in that last sentence, but today I'm struggling with just my basic word choices, and have to constantly edit my stroke-like gibberish, so I'm not even going to try to edit it.

 

Crimson Wife, many of us would enjoy having your skills as a teacher, but not all of us have been given those gifts. And many of us have students with struggles yours don't have. But we have other gifts and strengths. Beautiful but DIFFERENT strengths and that's okay. I used to tell my 2E son who pulled off some amazingly high test scores some years, and low ones other years, "Different isn't better. Different Isn't worse. Different is just Different!" Those quotation marks don't look right :-0 But in the long run, the world doesn't stop turning over that. The point of writing is to be understood, not show off. So I'm leaving it as is, without consulting a writing handbook.

 

Life is short. We need to pick our priorities. Today I care more about other things than quotation marks. I keep a steady pace of learning for my remediation and that of my students, and then we just live. I'm off to make some chocolate pudding with that milk that is about to go sour :lol:

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My dd was writing phobic to go right there with your writing phobic boy. People think it only happens to boys, hehe. Anyways, I've pretty much tried to hold to the WTM standards as my minimum, because I figured if I was doing that, I was focusing on foundations. Good Point! I'm going to pull out the WTM this afternoon.

 

As you see, some kids *can* turn out essays and whatnot earlier. Some of those kids might have great writing, and some might not be turning out writing quite like what you're expecting.

 

I think it's a misnomer to conclude that a writing phobic child isn't going to be a good writer. Sometimes the very things that make a child writing phobic cause him also to be more observant, more people intuitive, etc. So you can end up with this ironic situation where the very people who are most writing *phobic* also have the most interesting things to say. That's why I think a slightly delayed approach where you focus on foundations, foundations, foundations is so good with these kids. By foundations, I mean the ability to get their thoughts into words and words onto paper COMFORTABLY. For some it's going to include the ability to type. Typing can open up the world for a writing phobic child. It's going to mean teaching outlining and structure to make sure their brains actually understand structure. I haven't seen anyone here mentioning outlining, only essays. *Outlining* is one of the key things you teach in 5th per WTM. It's definitely a wise thing to do. Some kids do *not* see structure naturally and need very careful work on it to get it to click. Some kids will not do as well with linear outlines and need to go more spatial (mind-mapping, webs, try using an app).

 

When WTM says not to *force* kids into creative writing, it doesn't *exclude* doing some other types. Sometimes with these kids it's useful to do things like writing prompts or things that are a little more engaging (since outlines and narrations AREN'T necessarily, lol). I think your CW choice is right on for that age. You can even give him some creative freedom in his telling, if you wish, a la Writing Tales. (I used both CW and WT and prefer WT.)

 

So the main things I'd work on for 5th are the ability to get thoughts out comfortably, beginning outlining, and typing. If you have those, the rest will fall into place later.

 

This is my ds exactly. I think, with enough time and hand-holding, he will be an excellent writer someday. He just needs to get comfortable with the writing process. That was a good point about the outlining helping to give him the structure he needs.

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Would it be possible for some of you wise ladies to list writing skills to be mastered in order (without attaching grade levels)? I find it's easier to go through a list that needs mastering and to move on to the next thing and not worry about grade level. If we fly through some stuff, great. If we linger on others, that's fine too. I was thinking some kind of list might be helpful so that we can make sure the foundation is solid before adding more complex skills.

 

Dd is in 5th and writing is not her strong suit. This year, more than any other, I have been worried about "keeping up," but I don't want that to be at the expense of mastering vital skills. Also, when does the writing, grammar, and spelling all need to come together? If dd writes a narration in history that has a logical flow, but has a few spelling and grammatical errors, is that ok? Do we discuss the writing separately from the logistics of her writing?

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Would it be possible for some of you wise ladies to list writing skills to be mastered in order (without attaching grade levels)? I find it's easier to go through a list that needs mastering and to move on to the next thing and not worry about grade level. If we fly through some stuff, great. If we linger on others, that's fine too. I was thinking some kind of list might be helpful so that we can make sure the foundation is solid before adding more complex skills.

 

Dd is in 5th and writing is not her strong suit. This year, more than any other, I have been worried about "keeping up," but I don't want that to be at the expense of mastering vital skills. Also, when does the writing, grammar, and spelling all need to come together? If dd writes a narration in history that has a logical flow, but has a few spelling and grammatical errors, is that ok? Do we discuss the writing separately from the logistics of her writing?

 

Happyhomemaker, you may have already seen this thread, but posts #33 and #34 may help answer your questions.

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