what's so hard about 5th grade???!?

[AEC]

This evening I bumped into a casual friend I haven't seen in a year. Our son's are both in 5th grade. He was surprised we were still homeschooling and wondered how we were keeping up. Apparently the homework the PS sends home with 5th graders is 'significantly challenging' - enough that he was genuinely surprised we were able to teach to that level. I'd classify them as 'homeshool friendly' PS'ing family..which led me to wonder...

 

..what the heck can they possibly be doing in 5th grade in that public school?!? :tongue_smilie:

 

for comparison, my 5th grader is doing:

 

->SM. Just finished 4B, including the SM4 complex word problems and intensive practice book. 5A starts next week - but he's got all 4 operations, multi-digit, w/ fractions and decimals, pos and neg numbers down cold so I expect he'll breeze through SM5.

 

->Earth & Space science cards...he'd be able to handle them as independent study but they're too much fun not to do together.

 

->SoTW #3..we do 3ish sections / week. He writes a 1 page summary of one of them including additional information gathered from other sources like Kingfisher, get's it critiqued and he revises.

 

->EasyGrammar5 (daily grams + the book)

 

->We're memorizing US States&Capitals for geography and practice memorizing (end of the year goal: I hand him a map of the US, he's able to fill out all 50 states +capitals, mtn ranges, major rivers, great lakes)

 

->Working his way through a reading list w/ 5th&6th grade appropriate titles on it.

 

->Problem solving/deduction puzzles as a 1st step towards logic (Sudoku, Sokoban, solo chess, math circuits)

 

->a (hand written) personal letter and a page (2-3 paragraphs) on some topic / week

 

-> we dabble w/ Latin. I think we're likely to take up German because I took it in HS and DW has a German minor, so we could all speak it together which would be fun.

 

He gets it all done in 2-3 hours per week day, working 90% independently, leaving nothing for the weekend. This seems, I think, inline with WTM suggestions and nothing here seems all that difficult.

 

Have I just totally misunderstood what 5th grade difficulty is 'supposed' to be??

Anyone know what PS 5th grade homework looks like? I was so tempted to ask for a sample of the 'significantly difficult' work but that just seemed really rude somehow. <shrug>

 

-andy

[tiffanieh]

Hmmm....I'd be interested in knowing myself! I have a 5th grader too. Although our school day takes us from 8:30-2:30 so we are schooling a bit longer than you, but I wouldn't say it's that much more challenging than any other year, just growing appropriately.

 

I will say though, that most of that homework they do is just hog wash in my opinion. Unnecessary busy work because they don't have the time to get to the actual work after the teaching the lesson. They can't assume that the student can learn the lesson on their own so the teacher must teach the lesson. If they can't do the assignment, then it must be homework.

[AimeeM]

It may just seem more difficult because the teacher has a classroom full of children learning at a different level. They may be doing more in terms of history projects, formal writing, and a more textbook geared science with experiments/labs (I'm not sure what cards you're using). Most fifth graders at ps are also still doing formal spelling, a second language (at least here) that takes up some "school" time, music, art, etc; leaving *more* for homework.

[angela in ohio]

Usually the level of reading and writing increases dramatically from 4th to 5th to 6th grade in PS. They start discussing and writing about literature more. Their science and history work require comprehension questions at this point, plus studying for tests. Also, they are usually hitting decimal/fractions work and harder long division problems and the start of pre-algebra concepts, so there's an increase in difficulty there.

 

For many dc, 5th grade may mean they are in or are getting ready to head to middle school, so they may start switching teachers. They end up with more homework, because each teacher gives some.

 

I think as homeschoolers, we get so used to hearing that the public school students don't do anything, and we believe it is true for all schools. I've seen some pretty suprised homeschoolers who sent their dc back to school and had a rough transition to the work load. Sure, there are some bad schools, but your average decent suburban school is working those students hard. :001_smile: Your dc is doing plenty, but imagine if you added written work in science, history, spelling, and grammar each day, plus a math text that required writing problems out instead of a workbook. It adds up to a lot of time.

[lmrich]

In PS there tend to be leaps in what is expected. Some teachers are tough and will not accept a paper that is not correctly labeled etc. The math switches a bit from just memorize to application. The literature should be longer as well. This is the beginning of the logic stage, and some kids are not as ready as others.

 

I have a fifth grader at home; she has transitioned into the logic stage rather nicely with no big bumps.

[NCJessieRN]

Last night, my friend, said how overwhelmed she is with her son's work load. He is 10 and in 5th grade. She told me he does homework two hours after school. Then takes a break for dinner and clean up and then has more homework to finish. She said it has taken him almost four hours without playing around to finish! Her son is really smart. I told her that was CRAZY and I would be talking to that teacher immediately. There is NO REASON to have that much work to bring home. She said this is a brand new teacher so maybe she doesn't know the ropes or how much work is appropriate:confused: Anyways, all that to say, this particular friend has said this year has started out tough for her fifth grader as well.

[Mom0012]

Last night, my friend, said how overwhelmed she is with her son's work load. He is 10 and in 5th grade. She told me he does homework two hours after school. Then takes a break for dinner and clean up and then has more homework to finish. She said it has taken him almost four hours without playing around to finish! Her son is really smart. I told her that was CRAZY and I would be talking to that teacher immediately. There is NO REASON to have that much work to bring home. She said this is a brand new teacher so maybe she doesn't know the ropes or how much work is appropriate:confused: Anyways, all that to say, this particular friend has said this year has started out tough for her fifth grader as well.

 

Yes, I always wonder why they can't get all, or at least most, of this work done at school.

 

However, I started taking a language class with my dd this year and, boy, does it bring back memories of school. The first 40 minutes were spent with the teacher answering stupid questions that the students and parents should have known if they had done their homework and taken a little time to investigate themselves. The last 20 minutes we covered new material that we will learn anyway when we do the homework. This is how I always experienced school and why I hated it so much.

 

Lisa

[The Crazy 4]

My friends that have 5th graders or had say they have so much homework, book reports, science projects or history. The Math is over a lot of there heads cause they dont remember it. I hear the same thing, I have a 5th grader too. What I get is "how much longer do you think you will do this?". Or "Wow your getting up to high school".

[Tabrett]

It would be interesting to see how much work a fifth grader actually does in school. Many, many, many kids can't work in that environment. Maybe because it is too distracting to have friends around or maybe they need more of a one on one tutoring situation. They take all their work home and are able do the the work since their friends aren't around to goof with or mom is at arms length to give the "tutoring" they need to actually do the work. My oldest dd was in ps in 5th grade. She was very distracted and also needed me to help way more than could be done in a classroom.

 

There is a huge push in education for group work and projects. This kind of work doesn't leave time to get individual work completed. I really don't think that ps has a heavier workload, I think it is a time management issue where most of the actual individual work is sent home.

 

When my dd was in 2nd grade, I saw what they did in the classroom and what they sent home. I was piping mad! They did fun projects, was read aloud to, crafts, watched educational videos, ect.... all educational, but things I would have loved to have done as "homework". Then they sent the real work to be done at home. It was sooo hard because she had after school activities and by the time we got to the homework she was brain fried and ready to relax. But I was stuck to 'teach' school in the evenings to a tired child. It was not why I put her in ps.

 

It was more like school was enrichment and home was where your did your work.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Tabrett

[Chrysalis Academy]

It would be interesting to see how much work a fifth grader actually does in school. Many, many, many kids can't work in that environment. Maybe because it is too distracting to have friends around or maybe they need more of a one on one tutoring situation. They take all their work home and are able do the the work since their friends aren't around to goof with or mom is at arms length to give the "tutoring" they need to actually do the work. My oldest dd was in ps in 5th grade. She was very distracted and also needed me to help way more than could be done in a classroom.

 

There is a huge push in education for group work and projects. This kind of work doesn't leave time to get individual work completed. I really don't think that ps has a heavier workload, I think it is a time management issue where most of the actual individual work is sent home.

 

When my dd was in 2nd grade, I saw what they did in the classroom and what they sent home. I was piping mad! They did fun projects, was read aloud to, crafts, watched educational videos, ect.... all educational, but things I would have loved to have done as "homework". Then they sent the real work to be done at home. It was sooo hard because she had after school activities and by the time we got to the homework she was brain fried and ready to relax. But I was stuck to 'teach' school in the evenings to a tired child. It was not why I put her in ps.

 

It was more like school was enrichment and home was where your did your work.

 

:iagree: This has been my observation as well. I pulled Miss P out last year after 1 quarter of 4th grade. Due to a combination of the distracting environment and all the other "stuff" they did in school, it seemed like they brought home all their math, every night. In order for a kid to keep up, a parent would have to basically teach them their math lesson and make sure they do all of the assignment, every night. So not only did this limit time for extracurricular activities and family time, it took away the time that I had been using to afterschool in the subjects they didn't even get to during the school day - history & science. At that point, it made a lot of sense to just bring my kid home and teach it all here!

 

I continue to worry about the kids whose parents do not or can not teach their children at night - whether due to work schedules, language barriers, or other factors. The math curriculum they were using was very heavy on (poorly written) word problems, written way above the kid's reading level in the early grades, and I wonder how the kids (up to 70% in some local districts) who come from Spanish-speaking homes are supposed to get the help they need?

 

I think this is part of the problem with 5th grade, and why it gets so hard: suddenly, there is an expectation that kids should be able to use and apply what they've "learned" over the early elementary years, and the very sad fact is that a lot of them *haven't* learned it. So they crash and burn, or they have to do hours of work to catch up. I'm not saying this is the only factor, but I'm seeing a lot of that around here. And I see its roots in my younger's 1st grade classroom, where the kids who are being taught to read and write and add & subtract at home thrive on all the great in-class activities, and the kids who aren't get further and further behind and check out. It's really, really tragic.

[Arcadia]

For my school district, 5th grade is when:

Some girls are in puberty mode and slacking

Science is tested for the first time in state testing and the teacher have to catch up with 4 years worth of science that was mostly skipped.

There is a district science fair where participation is compulsory.

5th grade field trip - not sure if its a overnighter but its a bigger scale field trip to celebrate end of elementary school. They do fundraising for the trip.

Summer fog - school started mid August, lots of kids forgot their 4th grade math.

Lots more group projects

Homework is being graded

 

 

Also the level of independence expected by the teacher does go up by grade level. By 2nd grade the schools minimize the hand holding except for special cases. In 3rd grade there is no hand holding.

 

Class ratio is 30:1 for K to 3rd, 35:1 for 4th to 5th.

 

Also the top performing schools in my district has more enrichment homework sent home. The kids don't have to finish it but a friend's child does the "extras" in after school care during homework hour.

[NCJessieRN]

It would be interesting to see how much work a fifth grader actually does in school.

:iagree:!

 

On a side note, we live about 5 min. from CSU and that is where I met my husband.:001_smile:

[blakereese]

I agree with many of the PP. I also wanted to add that in our school district there is A LOT of homework in fifth grade, and a lot of it needs a parent to help and sometimes actually teach. Many of my friends have not been homeschooling at all and haven't necessarily been in tune with their children's school work over the years. So for them to all of a sudden teach fifth grade math or remember certain history events or science topics is very hard. They also ask me, "How do you do it?" But as I have been doing it all along and learn ahead of my son(or relearn or refresh I should say ;) ) it isn't quite a challenge. Meanwhile they are googling at 9pm on a Wednesday and trying to be helpful. It leads to a lot of frustration and tears.

[foxbridgeacademy]

I teach a homeschool Science/History class to 4th-6th graders and I have found it is very hard to get them to do their homework (including my DC). HSers are used to being able to get all their work done in a certain time period. It doesn't help of course that 1/2 my students come from previously 100% unschoolers. That said, I wouldn't want them to feel overwhelmed... they love my class, what homework they do, they enjoy.

 

So 5th graders are doing much harder work in PS then some HSers, thats because we work at our own pace.... who cares what PSers are doing, they are not my yardstick. My child is unique and will learn what is needed when he needs to learn it. DS is a great example of this, he is in 6th and doing pre-alg. He can't write a proper essay and his spelling is horrible. That's okay, we'll get there.

[Beth in SW WA]

Usually the level of reading and writing increases dramatically from 4th to 5th to 6th grade in PS. They start discussing and writing about literature more. Their science and history work require comprehension questions at this point, plus studying for tests. Also, they are usually hitting decimal/fractions work and harder long division problems and the start of pre-algebra concepts, so there's an increase in difficulty there.

 

For many dc, 5th grade may mean they are in or are getting ready to head to middle school, so they may start switching teachers. They end up with more homework, because each teacher gives some.

 

I think as homeschoolers, we get so used to hearing that the public school students don't do anything, and we believe it is true for all schools. I've seen some pretty suprised homeschoolers who sent their dc back to school and had a rough transition to the work load. Sure, there are some bad schools, but your average decent suburban school is working those students hard. :001_smile: Your dc is doing plenty, but imagine if you added written work in science, history, spelling, and grammar each day, plus a math text that required writing problems out instead of a workbook. It adds up to a lot of time.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[...................]

It's all very sad. Just 20 years ago when I was I'm 5th grade, my public schoo teachers (from west deptford, NJ..not a great school district) had the freedom to pursue creative writing all year long. They made a beautiful bound book out of all of our language arts, creative writing, Science, and history projects and so I have a treasured keepsake of creative ways that I learned and shared. It's 100% mine and they even had us decorate the cover.

 

Now, with standards and pushing children to achieve, I know they would never be able to do this. How sadly education has changed in only 20 years. Now good, creative teachers get stuck because of the failing teachers and schools, now all teachers lose out and all the children too.

 

They are certainly "working those children hard" but it's not really accomplishing anything. It's exhausting for the children. But what I can't see is how your friends don't see a better way. Why can't they see that those 4 hours of homework is either because of lack of organization, disruptive students, busywork, or all three?

 

My nephew is enrolled in Connections Academy for 7th grade and its awesome, it's not as good as having the freedom I do as a regular homeschooler but he is getting a great education without homework, bullying, getting lost in the shuffle, etc.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Calming Tea

[kiwik]

4 hours homework! A lot of time is wasted in schools. Also while people can say quite accurately group work is a required skill for the workforce most work environments have a boss and financially motivated employees. Group work for 10 year olds is an incredibly inefficient use of time. And in my experience one person ends up.doing almost all the work anyway and at least one person does nothing and learns nothing.

 

OK I am predjudiced

[Tidbits of Learning]

We started a virtual school this year and there is a lot more cross-curricular activities such as essays required in multiple subjects. That takes up a lot of our time. The science is way more than we did in homeschool. We have a lot of labs as well. I agree that in the younger grades history and science gets pushed to the side. My oldest did b&m for k-3rd. So you do have kids suddenly being expected to utilize science that they haven't been taught.

There is a big step up in 4th and 5th. They do start switching classes and the teachers quit holding their hands. It is an hour long lecture normally with an assignment to complete on your own time.

I will say that my kids could go back to school without problems. The level of work and intensity of it is overwhelming sometimes, but it is definitely a great education. Being completely honest, that would not have been true with our traditional homeschooling. It would have been a huge shock for us in both work load and the quality of the education that the public school expected.

My 6th grader is taking fundamentals of geometry and algebra, physical science (which is more like my high school chemistry class was), World History-History of the Human Odyssey, Music, World History Art, Language Skills-Grammar Usage and Mechanics, Vocabulary from the Classical Roots, and Composition;Literature-lots of reading and analyzing and writing goes with this as well as in-depth book studies, strategies for success, test-taking skills, and she takes French. My 4th grader's math is the equivalent of what we used for 6th grade for the girls (traditionally homeschooling) in scope and sequence. He takes math, language skills-grammar usage and mechanics, sadlier oxford vocabulary, and composition; Literature-lots of discussion and analytical thinking as well as book studies, American History with Geography, Science, Spelling, Art, Music, Strategies for Success, and Test taking skills as well as having to keep up with Study Island. He is often required to write a lot for each subject. It is a very long day sometimes and we are at home.

Group work in public school is not done at all unless it is something fun (not academic). The focus is on the kids being able to take the state test and do well. They aren't taking the test as a group so group work has been phased out a lot nowadays. They are honestly covering a lot and from 4th on up they aren't holding back to the children who are struggling. They are moving through and are able to fail kids. In elementary, they can only hold a kid back once no matter their grades. That ends in 4th here with the state test. So the class is at the pace for the grade level and you either hire a tutor or stay up all night with your kid doing the work.

I did have a lot of preconceived ideas about the public school and how it works based on prior prejudices and from reading other people's horror stories, but the truth of it is that there are some great, tough schools out there.

Since we have been under an umbrella school, I have realized that my kids would have had difficulty going back to public school and they wouldn't have been as prepared as I previously thought they were. I would not be comfortable doing middle school now as a traditional homeschooler as I was before we started the virtual school. I guess it looks differently from both sides of the fence. I thought what we did was plenty for 4th-6th with my oldest dd when we were homeschooling, but now that I have seen what is expected of the 4th-6th graders in the b&m up the road and what the virtual school expects...well I would have a totally different perspective.

[Tidbits of Learning]

Anyone know what PS 5th grade homework looks like? I was so tempted to ask for a sample of the 'significantly difficult' work but that just seemed really rude somehow. <shrug>

 

You can normally go to your local school web site and pull up a 5th grade teacher and normally there is a list of the homework due there. It should give you an idea of what they are doing and learning.

[boscopup]

4 hours homework! A lot of time is wasted in schools. Also while people can say quite accurately group work is a required skill for the workforce most work environments have a boss and financially motivated employees. Group work for 10 year olds is an incredibly inefficient use of time. And in my experience one person ends up.doing almost all the work anyway and at least one person does nothing and learns nothing.

 

OK I am predjudiced

 

I had the same experience in school and even in college. :glare: Senior group design project? Two of us wrote software, one guy did documentation, and one guy who neither knew how to write software OR write documentation (English was not his strong suit) did absolutely nothing. Thankfully, in the workplace, people have more incentive to pull their own weight.

[warneral]

I had the same experience in school and even in college. :glare: Senior group design project? Two of us wrote software, one guy did documentation, and one guy who neither knew how to write software OR write documentation (English was not his strong suit) did absolutely nothing. Thankfully, in the workplace, people have more incentive to pull their own weight.

 

Sounds like my senior project too! Thankfully it wasn't like that in corporate life (for the most part)