laundrycrisis Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 (edited) With the OT's agreement, we went ahead with the testing for DS1. His main problem is great difficulty with sequential information, and also even when it is information that is not sequential, retrieval is a problem. Both of these I was expecting. And I suspected low working memory. But whoa, not like this. I mean it is extreme. The psychologist said this is a major obstacle to learning for him, and said that although he generally is not in favor of homeschooling, that he believes his achievement scores were a lot higher than they would have been if he had been in school instead of home with me teaching him, because with a working memory problem like this, school would not have worked well for him at all. So apparently I am doing a good job of adapting to his challenges. But, I would still like to see if his working memory can be improved so everything is not so awfully difficult. This doctor didn't have suggestions for actually improving it. I have read about Cogmed - it sounds very expensive. Is there something else I should be looking into ? Thanks ! Edited September 26, 2012 by Laundrycrisis2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merry gardens Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 ...The psychologist said this is a major obstacle to learning for him, and said that although he generally is not in favor of homeschooling, that he believes his achievement scores were a lot higher than they would have been if he had been in school instead of home with me teaching him, because with a working memory problem like this, school would not have worked well for him at all. So apparently I am doing a good job of adapting to his challenges. But, I would still like to see if his working memory can be improved so everything is not so awfully difficult. .... Is there something else I should be looking into ? Thanks ! :hurray: Yeah for you and your homeschooling! And how nice that the psychologist gave you credit! You might look at "Help For Memory" from LinguiSystems. http://www.linguisystems.com/products/product/display?itemid=10038 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 PM yllek about the working memory issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 We're using HeatherMonster's metronome protocol with http://www.amazon.com/Auditory-Sequential-Memory-Instructional-Workbook/dp/0972776230/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1348787636&sr=8-1&keywords=auditory+sequential+memory+workbook You can literally do them together and double your impact. So you're getting the distraction of the metronome, the motor control of the clapping, the EF of the digit spans and keeping time. It's just a super-fab, super-efficient way to get there. It's in the spirit of the things Yllek has posted about. Her therapist had them doing digit spans plus motor control plus distractions. When you get multiple things going like that, it just makes it all the more effective. Our VT place wants her to do some vision therapy exercises with a metronome too. I think the lady who did this auditory working memory book has a visual one. So it definitely has room to go more directions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdithRene Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 OhElizabeth, I am interested in more info on "HeatherMonsters Metronome". I googled it but can't find anything ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Sounds like the psychologist was wise enough to recognize a mother's wisdom in homeschooling. :). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 OhElizabeth, I am interested in more info on "HeatherMonsters Metronome". I googled it but can't find anything ?? Hit search, advanced search, specify HeatherMonster as the user, put metronome for the search term, and limit it to posts. Should pop up several. Then you can write her or start a thread if you want more info. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdithRene Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Thanks, OhElizabeth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 (edited) Over summer, DS used IM and exercises for a retained STNR and vestibular. In our case, the IM was used to deal with sustained focus issues. DS has dyslexia/dyscalculia/dysgraphia and gifted. IM is supposed to help with the lds; however, DS was completely re-mediated for reading prior to IM and I've noted no significant change with handwriting. Honestly, he types and my concerns are much bigger than hw'ing. The 12-13 yo transition period is a tricky bit for adolescents, combined with the fact that DS is so easy going, and we are no longer stressed with keeping up in a NT classroom. Honestly, the kid is wide open to learning and trying things. I can't tell whether maturity, homeschooling itself, or IM are the cause of the good results we are seeing with DS. I feel like his music playing has definitely improved. For WM, yllek mentioned n-back and dual n-back mental exercises for the older student. I will be exploring that further this weekend. Your child is younger than mine so the therapies may be different. Reflecting back on it, I wish we had pursued OT years ago. The IM, vestibular, and STNR exercises would have been great. Outside the uses OhE has mentioned with IM, I'm unclear how the training improves working memory. ETA: Does your child have dysgraphia too? Edited September 28, 2012 by Heathermomster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laundrycrisis Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 We're using HeatherMonster's metronome protocol with http://www.amazon.com/Auditory-Sequential-Memory-Instructional-Workbook/dp/0972776230/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1348787636&sr=8-1&keywords=auditory+sequential+memory+workbook You can literally do them together and double your impact. So you're getting the distraction of the metronome, the motor control of the clapping, the EF of the digit spans and keeping time. It's just a super-fab, super-efficient way to get there. It's in the spirit of the things Yllek has posted about. Her therapist had them doing digit spans plus motor control plus distractions. When you get multiple things going like that, it just makes it all the more effective. Our VT place wants her to do some vision therapy exercises with a metronome too. I think the lady who did this auditory working memory book has a visual one. So it definitely has room to go more directions. Okay, I have that book. He does okay with digit spans but the test involved a string of mixed letters and numbers and was almost a complete fail. I flipped through the book and there are no mixed string exercises. I can still do it the way it is, I am guessing with a metronome and clapping, right ? But I would also like to find some mixed string exercises too. Also I am going to give a copy of the report to the OT and see if she has any books to recommend. The psychologist also suspected an auditory processing problem although the tests he gave don't specifically test for that, so I may be going on to testing I guess with an SLP if more testing is necessary, or just go straight to therapies anyway, if the therapies for WM are the same ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacefully Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinmom Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 My DD had severe working memory issues...still has some, but has improved a lot. We did neurofeedback followed by CogMed and had great success with both. For CogMed specifically, we saw a 36% increase in working memory ability following the program! Our providers said that they normally see a 24% increase, so 36% was impressive. Both these interventions are agreeably expensive. Just wanted to report in that they were worth the expense over at our house. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 You can get what the Auditory Sequential Memory workbook offers and more through SuperDuper's HearBuilder Auditory Memory software. We are using it for listening skills and it has been working great for us while also working on other areas I wanted to work on with my son (WH information etc.). It is a bit pricey but worth every penny for us. I got it when SuperDuper had a 30% off sale. Just thought I would mention it as another option to look into. My son does really well with anything that is computer based. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 (edited) Just to add that it has four levels, basic, intermediate, advanced, and expert. The Expert level includes background noise which will be great to work on with my sensitive to noise son. It is another area I have wanted to build on with him. Background noise distracts him. I had this issue myself but without help I just found ways to keep my mind focused on my own. Edited September 29, 2012 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mukmuk Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 (edited) Love this thread! May I ask, what is string exercises? As a backdrop, DS has CAPD, VPD (part of the same suite of processing issues) and is stealth dyslexic with WM issues. Working memory- i knew my son had this issue and so on our own, we tried N-back. We used Mindbuilder on the IPad. Cost is only 99 cts :001_smile:. I was reading that a newer one may be better in that it is customisable- it's called Better Brain. My son actually did a lot of the levels (up to n=4 or 5), but I couldn't discern any practical, real life benefits. After we confirmed his weak working memory at the NP, we were advised to try Cogmed. It's been amazing! He still has some issues, but definitely a lot less. DS is definitely more together. I'm not sure if its entirely Cogmed, because DS also did Fast Forword (for CAPD, to improve sound discrimination) over the same period. Or it could also be some developmental maturity kicking in. But he's seen some pretty impressive gains over the last 6 months. One possible indicator of CAPD from the WISC- the letter-number sequencing scores. The entire WISC is auditory-based, but mitigated by the fact that its done in a quiet room. From what I read, this subtest is extremely auditory-intensive, even more so than digit span. Edited September 29, 2012 by Mukmuk Not $99! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mukmuk Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Our experience- we also tried IM and Samonas (music therapy) at the OT and with daily sessions at home. There was some improvement with IM. But Samonas seemed to make my son irritable :(. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laundrycrisis Posted September 29, 2012 Author Share Posted September 29, 2012 One possible indicator of CAPD from the WISC- the letter-number sequencing scores. The entire WISC is auditory-based, but mitigated by the fact that its done in a quiet room. From what I read, this subtest is extremely auditory-intensive, even more so than digit span. That is the subtest that had the most alarming results. But he did exceptionally well on pseudoword decoding and has no issues with phonics. His issues all seem to be memory related. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mukmuk Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 The letter-number sequence requires the processing, recall and sorting of two sequences (alphabet and number) rather than just one sequence (number), which is what the digit span does. So the subtest tests more than auditory memory alone. A struggle here also indicates a struggle in brain co-ordination, since numbers and alphabets are stored in different systems of the brain. Im postulating, but perhaps this is why metronome-type activities seem to work for many of us, because it focuses on brain co-ordination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laundrycrisis Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 The letter-number sequence requires the processing, recall and sorting of two sequences (alphabet and number) rather than just one sequence (number), which is what the digit span does. So the subtest tests more than auditory memory alone. A struggle here also indicates a struggle in brain co-ordination, since numbers and alphabets are stored in different systems of the brain. Im postulating, but perhaps this is why metronome-type activities seem to work for many of us, because it focuses on brain co-ordination. Thank you for the explanation. He also did not do well on the recall portion of the California Verbal Learning Test. He was above average on recognition though, so the doctor thinks this indicates his problem is with retrieval, not encoding or storage. He also said he never did sort the items into categories. He thinks this indicates that DS has never developed an efficient style of storage (semantic clustering) - he is stuck on serial and/or random storage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Thank you for the explanation. He also did not do well on the recall portion of the California Verbal Learning Test. He was above average on recognition though, so the doctor thinks this indicates his problem is with retrieval, not encoding or storage. He also said he never did sort the items into categories. He thinks this indicates that DS has never developed an efficient style of storage (semantic clustering) - he is stuck on serial and/or random storage. Not that I have a clue what I'm talking about, but there are ways to work on storage in the brain. It's an issue that comes up in apraxia/other speech problems. There are apps and activities they do to help kids get that semantic storage. (types of fruit all in one folder in the brain, that sort of thing) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eoffg1 Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 You wrote that you suspected low working memory. But, we have 3 distinct types of working memory, Auditory, Visual and Spacial. While Auditory and Visual w/m is used to retrieve sounds and images. It is Spacial w/m that we use to organize multiple sounds/ images, so that they form associations, in sequences and patterns. Where their is a crucial difference between series and sequential thinking? With series thinking, it just moves from beginning to end, to arrive at a conclusion. But sequential thinking starts with the conclusion, and then thinks back to how this was arrived at? So that a pattern of associations are recognized, that form the conclusion. What sequential thinking enables, is the ability to change an element/s within a sequence/pattern, and recognize how it will be integrated, and effect the outcome. Thinking from outside in. Where rote recall of sequence, is just rote recall of series. With no understanding of the sequence as a whole? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyslexicParent Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 May I ask how much neurofeedback improved your DD? Now that neurofeedback has been elevated to "Level 1 - Best Support" intervention for ADHD, we're budgeting at least $7,000 for 40 sessions of neurofeedback for DD. If one does not have enough money for both (plus Orton-Gillingham tutors, braces, etc.), would you choose neurofeedback or Cogmed for the "bigger bang for the (limited) buck"? My spouse would hate to spend $7K and half a year travelling to and from the clinic only to find out that we still need medication or more treatments. My DD had severe working memory issues...still has some, but has improved a lot. We did neurofeedback followed by CogMed and had great success with both. For CogMed specifically, we saw a 36% increase in working memory ability following the program! Our providers said that they normally see a 24% increase, so 36% was impressive. Both these interventions are agreeably expensive. Just wanted to report in that they were worth the expense over at our house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 May I ask how much neurofeedback improved your DD? Now that neurofeedback has been elevated to "Level 1 - Best Support" intervention for ADHD, we're budgeting at least $7,000 for 40 sessions of neurofeedback for DD. If one does not have enough money for both (plus Orton-Gillingham tutors, braces, etc.), would you choose neurofeedback or Cogmed for the "bigger bang for the (limited) buck"? My spouse would hate to spend $7K and half a year travelling to and from the clinic only to find out that we still need medication or more treatments. Oh my lands, could I just say I would be cautious? $7K is an insane amount of money. If Twinmom or anyone writes you back, I would be asking how long to see *some* progress to know you're on the right track. VT costs a lot of money, but you can see changes in a month to know you're going the right way. Don't plunk out $7K for ANYTHING just hoping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eoffg1 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 The opening statement says that the elevation to Level 1, is a company announcement from PractiseWise. So that they have elevated a product that they are marketing. Then they list 5 outdated studies to support this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiramisu Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 The price I was quoted for cogmed was $1300. I'd try that first over $7K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 The opening statement says that the elevation to Level 1, is a company announcement from PractiseWise.So that they have elevated a product that they are marketing. Then they list 5 outdated studies to support this. Hey Eoffg, I googled and couldn't find any info on PracticeWise marketing neurofeedback. Can you enlighten us? Maybe a link or something to show the connection? I did find this link on the AAP website, so apparently there's *some* legitimacy to that other article's claims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyslexicParent Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 (edited) According to its website, PracticeWise simply "offers innovative tools and services to help clinicians and organizations improve the quality of behavioral health care for children and adolescents." For example, it provides a database of clinical trials. In other words, it has no financial interest if you use neurofeedback or a different therapy for your child. As you can see from the AAP's Evidence-based Child and Adolescent Psychosocial Interventions up to September 2012, biofeedback is already listed as "Level 2 - Good Support". According to Sharpbrains.com, this will be changed to the highest level in the next edition. Neurofeedback is the type of biofeedback that uses EEG or brain waves, and numerous studies have shown it to help with ADHD. Since several kinds of ADHD medication and behaviour therapy programs have not worked for my child, it seems that neurofeedback is the best available treatment to try next, despite the high cost. The opening statement says that the elevation to Level 1, is a company announcement from PractiseWise.So that they have elevated a product that they are marketing. Then they list 5 outdated studies to support this. Edited October 14, 2012 by DyslexicParent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 According to its website, PracticeWise simply "offers innovative tools and services to help clinicians and organizations improve the quality of behavioral health care for children and adolescents." For example, it provides a database of clinical trials. In other words, it has no financial interest if you use neurofeedback or a different therapy for your child. As you can see from the AAP's Evidence-based Child and Ado*les*cent Psychosocial Inter*ven*tions up to September 2012, biofeedback is already listed as "Level 2 - Good Support". According to Sharpbrains.com, this will be changed to the highest level in the next edition. Neurofeedback is the type of biofeedback that uses EEG or brain waves, and numerous studies have shown it to help with ADHD. Since several kinds of ADHD medication and behaviour therapy programs have not worked for my child, it seems that neurofeedback is the best available treatment to try next, despite the high cost. Yeah, as cynical as I am, I couldn't find evidence of the connection eofgg was asserting. So tell me about the practitioner you've found. As I'm googling here, I'm seeing a lot of varieties (Brain Train, Brain Master, other types, blah blah). Seems like some do a QEEG first and some don't. Is yours going to do a QEEG first? And is the $7K reflecting part of that cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyslexicParent Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 So tell me about the practitioner you've found. My reply is in your neurofeedback thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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