Dropout Nation

[Snickerdoodle]

I've watched the first 55 minutes of this episode.

 

Some of these kids have problems that are completely overwhelming.

 

:(

 

I can't imagine being a school counselor and trying to keep a kid in school when the kid doesn't even have his/her basic needs met. :(

[simplyme99]

Oh Good Grief ... this is where I live. :eek:

[stripe]

I watched it last night. It made me feel very upset, the degree to which parents' problems are affecting the kids. I found it fascinating that so many dropputs found school boring and felt ignored, and the Apollo 20 schools' approach, including all that math tutoring. The whole way they talked about credits was new to me, the coming in on Saturdays, rushing through the year. For sure with Marco, but also at least one of the other boys, and they showed the graduation counselor. How do they do this? Is it computerized? I mean, my hs wasn't open on the weekends, nor could I have doubled up on credits. And Sparkle was in the back of the class with a computer.

 

I thought it was very telling to actually SEE how regular-looking and reasonably articulate the at-risk kids were. But the whole topic makes me extremely sad. How can we let so many children fail, and then we're willing to pay for prison, and we as a society are stuck with the consequences?

[Snickerdoodle]

And some of it is the district not tuned in to the needs of the families.

Yes, in the show the counselor was telling a girl that her only job was to be a student and the girl responded:

 

"My job right now is to try to get my son back, to make sure I have a place to sleep every night and to make sure I can eat every day."

 

And the guy who was stressing because his parents were being deported? Poor kid.

 

These kids have rough lives at such a vulnerable time in their journey to becoming adults. It's heartbreaking.

[stripe]

Yes, in the show the counselor was telling a girl that her only job was to be a student and the girl responded:

 

"My job right now is to try to get my son back, to make sure I have a place to sleep every night and to make sure I can eat every day."

 

And the guy who was stressing because his parents were being deported? Poor kid.

 

These kids have rough lives at such a vulnerable time in their journey to becoming adults. It's heartbreaking.

 

Yes, Sparkle had the baby who was under some sort of proceedings to be removed from her, was homeless, her mother had died, and had left New Orleans because of Katrina. The counselor wasn't sure it all was true but that any of those was enough to be traumatic.

 

Marco's father had already been deported, and mother was under deportation proceedings but was not ultimately deported.

 

Lawerance's mother was in prison.

 

Marcus's parents drank extensively.

 

I mean.... and none of them appeared to have any family members who had graduated high school.

 

And I almost cried in the pregnancy section.

[warneral]

I thought, after going to my Dominican Republic Mission Trip that we have it so good here (in the US) in comparison. We do! We have schools available to all, etc. etc,

 

But after watching last night, I realize my head has STILL been in the clouds. Some Kids are dealing with insurmountable challenges. On top of it, they were never taught the skills of self control,compassion and responsibility.

 

I was inspired by the teacher's live for at risk kids. At the same time, I find it sad that they cannot teach them responsibility b/c they would lose the student. The alternative is most likely a life of crime.

 

I really wish our society would work to tackle the underlying problems at home instead of punishing schools for being "unsuccessful" with them.

Edited September 26, 2012 by warneral

[LibraryLover]

Heartbreaking.

 

Those are dedicated people.

Edited September 26, 2012 by LibraryLover

[stripe]

There's an article in The Atlantic by Peg Tyre titled The Writing Revolution about a high school on Staten Island that solved part of their dropout problem...by...go figure...actually teaching the students. Seems they had decided the students were not smart enough. Now they are teaching English as it was taught back in the 70s...with grammar instruction.

That was one of the things I thought was interesting about the school. They beefed up the math instruction so each kid got 70 min of math tutoring daily.

 

But I still felt like a good part of the classwork shown was the student on a computer, and all the talk about getting extra credits covered in a year really did not sound like any classroom I'd experienced.

[warneral]

It seemed for the at risk kids, the goal was to get a piece of paper. I realize it is important for those kids to get a diploma to get a respectable job. The problem is, the school had to babysit and coddle them so much, those kids didn't learn responsibility. What is the likelihood that they would show up to work everyday?

 

These kids have probably watched their parents not have to work. They had no work ethics. No ability to comprehend that work is part of the human experience.

 

ETA I'm not blaming the schools for trying. My heart really went out to these people who are trying SO hard!

 

I guess I think that this is a societal problem that needs to be solved outside of school. Schools cannot undo what their upbringing has done to them.

[mom2scouts]

My future DIL works in an inner city charter school and they are successful because they work to solve these problems. Any child that is falling behind needs to go to "Saturday school". The school year is very long because they don't want those children out of school too long getting into trouble or losing any progress. They bring parents in and try to get them involved. When the school suspects abuse, they make sure that at least 3 teachers or administrators make a report to be sure that there is CPS follow-up. It's a shame there are so many parents who either don't care at all or are just overwhelmed with life and the school has to become parents.

[Plagefille]

And some of it is the district not tuned in to the needs of the families. Geez, when the parent works shift, someone has to watch the kids. Starting elementary way after middle and high school means that some older kids are going to have to stay home to watch the little sibs. My current district's solution was to put those families in alternative school, at $28k/yr per pupil. The district I grew up in set school start times to accomodate working families....everyone on the same bus, K-12. Another problem is the high cost of day care...couldn't we just go to extended day and get these kids the tutoring they need, instead of ignoring that they are sitting in the parents car while she's at work, waiting for lunch so they can be driven to school, etc etc. because no one offers reasonably priced daycare?

 

Okay I had to chime in. I HATE it when people say daycare is expensive. The average is 3-4 dollars an hour! You think that is too high for someone to care for your child all day? Including activities and food! Yeah it may be hard to fit in a budget and take up a good portion of income but it is not expensive for what you get!

[stripe]

It seemed for the at risk kids, the goal was to get a piece of paper. I realize it is important for those kids to get a diploma to get a respectable job. The problem is, the school had to babysit and coddle them so much, those kids didn't learn responsibility. What is the likelihood that they would show up to work everyday?

I didn't see them as being "coddled." One boy briefly lived with the counselor, who helped him a lot out of school time, but I didn't see the homeless girl as being coddled when he was hungry and had nowhere to sleep. I didn't think telling her school is her only job was a)realistic or b)an example of coddling. At all.

 

And if caring about people, calling to encourage them to go to school, bringing them food, and helping them with their schedules is "coddling" them, just how much coddling does the average middle class family provide? Because some of these kids need more help, in my opinion, not less. And these examples can teac them how to be responsible, in some cases, or, in others, help them cope with problems that are distracting them from their academic work.

 

One of the thing Malcolm Gladwell talks about in one of his books is how much the poor get kicked around by "the rules," and are taught not to challenge them, whereas richer people ALWAYS appeal when things don't come out their way, and generally know how to finesse the system to their advantage.

 

I also didn't think the school only saw it as getting a piece of paper, because the school administrator showed a distinct lack of enthusiasm for the diploma mills of the private school thing in Texas.

 

These kids have probably watched their parents not have to work. They had no work ethics. No ability to comprehend that work is part of the human experience.

 

Well, one girl was an orphan, so, yeah, a dead person doesn't have to work. Another one had a mother who was undergoing deportation proceedings, so she may not have been allowed to work. I don't think many people who are being deported are collecting welfare, which I think is the implication here. Illegal immigrants are not eligible for welfare benefits. He was not happy about his older brother being a dropout. By the way, he deployed two weeks ago, with the Army. Lawerance's mother was in prison, so, again, work status not so relevant. Here is what Marcus's mother says ( http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/education/dropout-nation/what-happened-to-marcus/ )

As much as his teachers have done for Marcus, his mother Tena has been trying all his life to keep him in school.

 

“If I could get all my kids to graduate, then I could have peace within myself,” Tena said, perched on the sofa in their ground-floor apartment. She saw her oldest daughter, Felecia, graduate high school and serve eight years in the Air Force. Her oldest son, Jonathan, finished high school and is saving up to attend community college. Both, she said, stayed out of trouble.

 

The family didn’t have much money, but their home life was warm for much of Marcus’ youth. Tena put Marcus in piano lessons — “that didn’t work out too well” — and encouraged him to work hard in school. Marcus’ father Clee struggled to find work, so he stayed home to raise the kids instead. He played football with Marcus, and cooked and cleaned the house.

 

Tena printed and framed the kids’ school pictures every year and wrote them little notes about how proud she was to watch them grow. On her days off, she cooked special meals for the family and played Al Green and Whitney Houston while Marcus sat at the table, listening along. “There’s a lot of memories — good times,” Tena recalled.

 

But about 10 years ago, her husband, still unable to find work, slipped into depression. He began drinking heavily and soon did little else. He wasn’t abusive, but he no longer could contribute to the household, leaving Tena to handle it on her own.

 

It made her sons angry, and she says, they told her to throw him out. But she was determined to keep the family together. “I wanted them to have their father here,” she said.

 

So let's not be so quick to assume poor black families are just lazing around, sponging off the government.

 

I think the teachers may be well-meaning, but the students' lives and problems are very complex and way more than they know about or can really handle, in some cases.

[Unicorn.]

Okay I had to chime in. I HATE it when people say daycare is expensive. The average is 3-4 dollars an hour! You think that is too high for someone to care for your child all day? Including activities and food! Yeah it may be hard to fit in a budget and take up a good portion of income but it is not expensive for what you get!

 

When these parents are only making minimum wage, and 20% of that is taken out for ss and fica, etc. then yes, it is too much. Current min wage is $7.25, and some states don't even pay that. Forty hrs a week (and most places paying min., wage will make it 39 so they don't have to pay benefits or overtime) is $290 a week. Take $58 off the top. $150 for daycare, and that leaves $82 a week for rent, food, clothes. And that's for ONE child. So yes, daycare costs are a factor.You can't rent any kind of two bedroom anything here for less than $800 a month. One bedrooms can't be found for less than $650. How can you think that daycare costs aren't expensive for some people?

[warneral]

Stripe,

 

I didn't say black families are lazy.

 

I was taking what I watched last night (with compassion and empathy) and generalizing. I did see these kids as unable to exhibit self control. It is human to struggle with self control. When you aren't modeled this (and responsibility), and you add onto it complex social and home-life problems, it is nearly impossible to exhibit self control.

 

When I say they were coddled, I doubt I'm the only person who would come up with that statement but it is all they can give these kids to show they care. Marcus was in a fight, ended up in jail with Marijuana found on his person. They didn't send him to (CEP? or whatever) because they knew he wouldn't go and would drop out. Instead he was given the consequence of "come every day to school on time". Even then, it only lasted a few weeks before he couldn't meet the criteria. I'm not saying he was lazy and I'm not saying his school was doing the wrong thing. I am saying he COULD NOT keep up the responsibility of showing up to school.

 

Where is his dad? His dad is an alchoholic who doesn't work. His mom does work (and is an alchoholic). He really wasn't being modeled responsibility at home.

 

Regarding Sparkle, I truly felt for her. One of her biggest problems seems to be that she was strung out. Perhaps all of those horrible circumstances were true. Perhaps her main problem is substance abuse + excuses. We do not know.

 

I don't have the answers and I truly felt that the school was at least trying with every fiber of their being. I also felt that the big issues cannot be fixed by a school even though our society expects the school to be able to fix it. It is unrealistic.

[butterflymommy]

I'll be brutally honest. The only one I feel real pity for is the one whose parents are being deported. I think his outbursts in class are due to sleep deprivation (he's sleeping ~3 hours a day). All the other kids are failing because of their own choices, skipping school (even though they live a block away), staying up smoking (I assume weed) until 3am, scoffing at rules in school (like wearing a hat), getting involved with gangs. So while sure, you can take someone who is irresponsible, but them in a $17million program, get them the piece of paper... what happens when they're out in the real world.

 

I also get so annoyed when I hear kids who are FAILING say "the work isn't challenging." Well if it's so easy it should be a piece of cake to get an A.

 

I grew up with a violent alcoholic, but I took grades dead serious, and I made choices accordingly. I know people who grew up dirt poor, some missing parents to death or divorce, but they made the right choices when it mattered and they are stable adults today.

 

On a tangent, it really rubbed me the wrong way how the teen moms were given an assignment to convince their female classmates not to get pregnant. I absolutely hate the culture of shaming that is dumped on teen mothers.

 

I feel most sorry for the counselors/ deans/ teachers who get so attached to the kids only to watch them slip away.

[warneral]

Sorry, but coddled? *choke* My kids are coddled. These kids have an uphill battle every day of their lives.

 

I don't disagree that they have an uphill battle. However, if you are given chance after chance and you don't show up to school. The teacher picks you up to go to school, the teacher comes to school on a Saturday so that you will hopefully show up to talk about consequences (which end up being - promise to come every day to every class) AND you don't show up. You continue to not be able to come to school daily. Yes your life is extremely hard and it is GREAT that you have people in the school that are showing you they care. You are also smoking pot daily but we'll talk about that later. Now it sounds like the only thing you have to do is come to school to graduate (I didn't hear much about actually doing the work to learn). Do you really think you will get a job and show up day after day?

 

Again, I truly feel for these kids but I also feel that they need more help from society than what the school can offer. Substance abuse program, an opportunity to live in a non-abusive living situation, etc. I don't even know the answer to the problem.

 

I'm done. I didn't say what I said out of dis-compassion. I don't like that you take one word that I said and attack it. I actually agree with a lot of what you said but think that the problem is bigger than what a lot of schools can address.

I also felt that the big issues cannot be fixed by a school even though our society expects the school to be able to fix it. It is unrealistic.

 

If not by the schools, then by whom?

[mommymilkies]

It seemed for the at risk kids, the goal was to get a piece of paper. I realize it is important for those kids to get a diploma to get a respectable job. The problem is, the school had to babysit and coddle them so much, those kids didn't learn responsibility. What is the likelihood that they would show up to work everyday?

 

These kids have probably watched their parents not have to work. They had no work ethics. No ability to comprehend that work is part of the human experience.

 

ETA I'm not blaming the schools for trying. My heart really went out to these people who are trying SO hard!

 

I guess I think that this is a societal problem that needs to be solved outside of school. Schools cannot undo what their upbringing has done to them.

 

This was not my experience with my friends growing up. At least half of them dropped out. These were the ones who were taught early they had no chance. Their parents worked all day and night, almost every day. Very poor families where they worked their tails off and still couldn't feed their kids. The kids just figured why bother with school when they'd end up in a crappy job anyway? But that was just my experience. Obviously, everyone is different.

[LibraryLover]

This, which I found quite annoying. First of all, the show made it sound like people in Texas who are homeschooling are doing it only to "get around the system". Hmph.

 

But my real problem with this "distinct lack of enthusiam for the diploma mills" is that this seemed to me to be exactly what this school was. Their requirements for a diploma were laughable. Show up for school and you'll get your diploma? What about the boy (Lawrence?) who was given an alternative school to attend. It was computerized, and he only had to attend for a couple of hours per day, hours that he got to choose. Really? How is that any different than the "diploma mills" that they were scoffing at?

 

I stayed up late last night to watch this show. While I have compassion for the difficult life circumstances of these kids, much of their problems were of their own doing. It is difficult to have compassion for stupid choices that they have total control over. Like the boy who punched another boy two hours before the end of the school year, after he was given chance after chance after chance ("coddled"). He lost it all. Everything. Stupid choice, and it's really hard to feel badly for him.

 

I didn't get that at all. It was clear they meant some; a minority. It was not even implied that this was common among Texas homeschoolers. Dropouts who say they are homeschooling is cleary a small in the scheme of it. Further, we do know some parents say they are hsing when they are not, although that was not what Frontline was addressing.

 

The diploma mills often email a diploma the same day the money is sent in. Sharpton actually made kids go to class. Students are getting up to 70 minutes a day of mathematics tutorting. That is *not* a diploma mill.

 

As for the kid who did Twilight. That's last chance. That or dank. Not a diploma mill.

 

How anyone could resent the faculty and staff at Sharpton working that hard (even with the Twilight program) to keep a troubled kid in school, rather than see him off to jail, is beyond my comprehension.

 

Do these diploma mills sit with these kids to encourage them? Call them? Text them? Feed them?

 

It not that same in any way.

Edited September 26, 2012 by LibraryLover

[Snickerdoodle]

I can't help but feel that there should be an option for some kids who know they're not going to make it to do some kind of serious vocational training after (or even starting in) middle school. For many of these kids, even if they did get a high school diploma, I'm pretty sure it would have zero impact on their lives. After high school many of these kids will fail just because they don't have any support system at all.

 

If they knew that by 16 or 18 they could be working as an apprentice at something and actually had some skills, they might feel that they had a real shot at being a self sufficient young adult.

[mommymilkies]

I can't help but feel that there should be an option for some kids who know they're not going to make it to do some kind of serious vocational training after (or even starting in) middle school. For many of these kids, even if they did get a high school diploma, I'm pretty sure it would have zero impact on their lives. After high school many of these kids will fail just because they don't have any support system at all.

 

If they knew that by 16 or 18 they could be working as an apprentice at something and actually had some skills, they might feel that they had a real shot at being a self sufficient young adult.

 

:iagree:

[LibraryLover]

I agree that real work can save some of these children. There are certainly vocational schools in Houston. It doesn't seem that these kids can even imagine a different life. I am betting there is a lot of talk, classes etc., that get kids in the 'real world', working. Because none of this was shown on the program doesn't mean they do not exist.

 

These are last chance kids in a last chance school.

 

At any rate, I can't have a rational discussion with anyone who calls caring for/about, and feeding hungry, homeless children/ children with alcoholic parents, "coddling".

Edited September 26, 2012 by LibraryLover

[Mommy22alyns]

I can't help but feel that there should be an option for some kids who know they're not going to make it to do some kind of serious vocational training after (or even starting in) middle school. For many of these kids, even if they did get a high school diploma, I'm pretty sure it would have zero impact on their lives. After high school many of these kids will fail just because they don't have any support system at all.

 

If they knew that by 16 or 18 they could be working as an apprentice at something and actually had some skills, they might feel that they had a real shot at being a self sufficient young adult.

 

Yes, absolutely.

[Arcadia]

I can't help but feel that there should be an option for some kids who know they're not going to make it to do some kind of serious vocational training after (or even starting in) middle school.

 

We have a vocational track back home in Asia starting from 9th grade. Kids who are not academically inclined or interested get to go to trade school. The trade school offers courses in plumbing, electrician, hairdressing, seamstress, mechanic, carpentry as well as others.

 

It gives these students a sense of achievement, an ability to earn more than living wage and keeps them from being a school dropout.

 

The vocational track does have a progression to go onto a engineering diploma if the student wish to.

[StartingOver]

If not by the schools, then by whom?

 

Parents are responsible!!! The schools are responsible for educating children. Teacher should not be expected to be everything to every child. Most won't try. It takes a very special people to even attempt to save these kids. But even one child is worth it.

 

I am not sure that all of that will do any good though. Pushing some of them through at double pace, is just to get the paper work done, to pass the test. I don't pretend to have the answer. But I know it starts with the parents.

 

My home life was horrible, I dropped out. I have 3 graduates, all three have finished or are taking college classes. I made sure they knew that they could do anything, be anything, go anywhere. Where everyone in my young life told me I would never amount to anything, family and strangers alike. There were tons of bets lost when I turned 21, and wasn't in prison. I believed them for a very long time.

 

It is very hard to deal with poverty, not knowing where your next meal is coming from. Drugs and alcohol abuse, even physical abuse. The last thing on my mind growing up was school. It just wasn't more important than SURVIVAL !

 

I see so much more of it now, it just breaks my heart.

[warneral]

 

At any rate, I can't have a rational discussion with anyone who calls caring for/about, and feeding hungry, homeless children/ children with alcoholic parents, "coddling".

 

When you word it that way I suppose we won't be having a rational coversation.

 

Sparkle (the homeless one - although the Dean herself said she wondered how much of her story was true) was being tested and smelled of pot.

 

The child (Marcus) who had alcoholic parents was smoking pot daily.

 

Yes they need help, but getting repetitive chances and having teachers beg them to simply show up to school isn't exactly working. They need more.

 

The vocational option sounds great. Substance abuse intervention also sounds great. I don't know all of the solutions but it seems to me that we are putting bandaids on much bigger societal problems. eg punishing schools when kids drop out. How was it the school's fault? Do they really deserve to lose funding? Look how many resources were poured into the 4 kids bio'd in the show. Only one graduated. Marcus might. Or he might not.

 

The one boy who it did work (he graduated) had parents who had modeled a hard work ethic. They couldn't be in the country if they didn't. Dad was deported, but you know mom was there working and getting help from her own son working to make it day by day.

 

I was never saying these high-risk students don't deserve the teachers' care. I wasn't even saying the teachers shouldn't do what they are doing. I was saying that there has GOT to be something more to help these kids break the vicious cycle that they are in.

[warneral]

It feels like you really don't get it. If a person comes from such a craptastic home life, why is it so surprising they act this way? I think it is an extremely rare person who can rise above that especially as a young person. Where would they even get the idea/motivation to do so?

 

I didn't say it is surprising. We're saying the same thing. But then, I don't get it.

If not by the schools, then by whom?

Faith groups, charities, other governmental agencies...

 

Public education is not the end-all-be-all for society.

 

I've never understood this idea that there are some faith groups with so many extra resources lying around idle that they could make even a small dent in these huge problems. My church is having problems getting our leaky roof fixed!

[elegantlion]

I have not seen the show. I agree about vocational training needing to take place in schools. My dh was in construction for years, self-employed for most of the time. He couldn't afford to take someone on as an apprentice. His trade is still suffering in this economy and there are plenty of experienced workers willing to work for lower pay, it's hard to hire someone with no real hands on experience and mentor them along the way. Dh occasionally did that over the years on an informal basis, going way above and beyond what was called for from a boss. But on a large scale, it's hard unless you know someone to get the real world experience and keep a steady job.

 

I wish there were more mentor type programs where dh could have taken the time to truly train someone, have clients who would understand a job would take longer, and have some of his expenses covered. As is it he's had to take a job as an employee for someone else.

 

I can see the cycle that some of these are stuck in. I mean what is the promise of education? A nice house in the suburbs? A crime free neighborhood in the city? Someone caring about your success and well-being? When you see people around you work hard all their lives and have nothing because they struggle with health issues, educational gaps, addiction issues, or years of being told they are poor and lazy, no wonder these kids are like they are.

 

Random thoughts, such as they are this evening. :sigh: