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What would you say to a Heterosexual Pride parade, or a Boys on the Run club?


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I'm thinking about what it means to support those in the minority. And how that support would look if applied to the majority ~ or, in some cases, those who are (allegedly) at an inherent advantage. Here's why it's on my mind.

 

The other day after a race I spoke with a young friend of mine who's now out of the closet and married (sic) to a woman. She asked if I'd be attending the Gay Pride parade the following day; it wasn't on my radar (didn't even know about it) and I said as much. As it turned out, we (Hans, boys, and I) happened to be downtown right when the parade was happening. So, okay. The parade, in all its flamboyance, passed by. I'm by no means one who rails against homosexuality ~ unlike the ridiculous guy who stood there holding up a sign lambasting "f*gs" and d*mning them to hell.

 

If one of my sons were to some day tell me that he was gay, I'd love him no less. I wouldn't agree wtih his choice, and if he asked my opinion I'd share as much, but I'd love him no less. I can't say I'd sport a PFLAG button either, though. (PFLAG = Parents, Families, and Friends of Lesbians and Gays) Nor would I expect anyone to march in support of my heterosexuality. I was in a store while the parade was going by and I wondered aloud, "Would people be on board if I organized a Heterosexual Pride parade?" Needless to say, several folks eyed me warily. But I wasn't being silly or sanctimonious. While I don't agree with the choice (yes, I consider it, ultimately, a choice) to lead a gay/lesbian lifestyle, I understand the reasons for that community to band together. I'm left wondering, though, if the support we're expected to show isn't a two-way street.

 

Likewise, also on Saturday, an acquaintance encouraged me, "You should get involved with Girls on the Run"! Girls on the Run promotes healthy living and self-respect among preteen girls; it receives a good deal of attention in this neck of the woods. Well and good. But I said to this acquaintance, "Ya know, maybe I'll start a Boys on the Run group and see how that title goes over. Because ~ gee, call me crazy ~ I run into all kinds of young guys who suffer from the same unhealthy lifestyle, the same low self-esteem, as does any young girl. Maybe more, since on average, there are more boys are growing up without male mentors than there are girls growing up without female mentors."

 

I have nothing against supporting the underdog, so to speak, uplifting those in a minority position. But it seems to this independent moderate that doing so often negates the possibility of giving equal attention and support to those in the majority. Am I making sense?

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He doesn't like various groups/functions/celebrations of minority groups either, for much the same reasons you state.

 

I feel there is benefit in various minority "pride" events, as it is very easy to feel so very squashed and misunderstood by the majority, whatever minority/majority you are talking about. Since generally the majority, whether it be straights, boys, whatever, are already so accepted, taken for granted as "normal" and celebrated, there isn't so much need or point to celebrate them further.

 

But I know what you are talking about.

 

Still, it does feel good to come together with like-minded individuals and celebrate, doesn't it? Like going to a homeschool convention. We're certainly a minority.

Michelle T

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I think I understand what you are saying....but I disagree with it on many levels....I will try to explain point by point....but, forgive me if I fall short....My children are driving me batty tonight.:glare:

 

The parade, in all its flamboyance, passed by. I'm by no means one who rails against homosexuality ~ unlike the ridiculous guy who stood there holding up a sign lambasting "f*gs" and d*mning them to hell.

 

I do agree that some on BOTH sides of the wall can be completely inappropriate....I get very annoyed with such people.

 

If one of my sons were to some day tell me that he was gay, I'd love him no less. I wouldn't agree wtih his choice, and if he asked my opinion I'd share as much, but I'd love him no less. I can't say I'd sport a PFLAG button either, though. (PFLAG = Parents, Families, and Friends of Lesbians and Gays) Nor would I expect anyone to march in support of my heterosexuality.

 

Why would anyone need to march in support of your heterosexuality? Society doesn't discriminate against you because of your sexuality.

 

 

I was in a store while the parade was going by and I wondered aloud, "Would people be on board if I organized a Heterosexual Pride parade?" Needless to say, several folks eyed me warily. But I wasn't being silly or sanctimonious. While I don't agree with the choice (yes, I consider it, ultimately, a choice) to lead a gay/lesbian lifestyle, I understand the reasons for that community to band together. I'm left wondering, though, if the support we're expected to show isn't a two-way street.

 

I believe it is no more fair of you to call homosexuality a "choice" than it would be for me to say that you are making a "choice" to be heterosexual. Homosexuals are attracted to the same sex just as you are attracted to the opposite sex.

 

Likewise, also on Saturday, an acquaintance encouraged me, "You should get involved with Girls on the Run"! Girls on the Run promotes healthy living and self-respect among preteen girls; it receives a good deal of attention in this neck of the woods. Well and good. But I said to this acquaintance, "Ya know, maybe I'll start a Boys on the Run group and see how that title goes over. Because ~ gee, call me crazy ~ I run into all kinds of young guys who suffer from the same unhealthy lifestyle, the same low self-esteem, as does any young girl. Maybe more, since on average, there are more boys are growing up without male mentors than there are girls growing up without female mentors."

 

There ARE organizations out there that deal with boy issues... and I am sure that a "Boys on the Run" would have just as many supporters and detractors as "Girls on the Run"...;)

 

I have nothing against supporting the underdog, so to speak, uplifting those in a minority position. But it seems to this independent moderate that doing so often negates the possibility of giving equal attention and support to those in the majority. Am I making sense?

 

Like I said before....I think I understand what you are saying....but I think you are missing the point. The point isn't about taking attention away from the majority...because, given the 'cause' there are always going to be 'minorities' in the majority. The majority isn't some group of stick figures that all think, act and look the same way....they are ALL of us. We are ALL in SOME sort of majority...Im heterosexual...that places me in the majority....but I am not a Christian which places me in the minority...see what I am saying? So, as I said, events like "gay pride parades" are not done to exclude the majority....they are intended to offer a sense of belonging and acceptance to those that are in the minority. A place to be among others in their same specific circumstance... and a way to attempt to 'normalize' it to those that think it is abnormal...which, incidentally, is why I disagree with the more "out there" approach of some participants...I think it plays into stereotypes and thus undermines the movement as a whole. But I digress....anyhow, the point I am making is that until you have really had to suffer the way that some minorities have had too...or are. It is hard to understand how good for the soul such events can be. Sometimes it is in our OWN souls best interest to try to have empathy for those that we do not understand...most especially when it is something we don't agree with. :001_smile:

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When I was a kid, I asked my father why there were special days for mothers and fathers but not children. "It's not fair. When is children's day?" I pouted. I'll never forget his response as long as I live. "Everyday is children's day," he wisely said. Likewise, I guess I see everyday as majority day. I wouldn't begrudge anyone in the minority their own day, month, parade or group.

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I believe it is no more fair of you to call homosexuality a "choice" than it would be for me to say that you are making a "choice" to be heterosexual. Homosexuals are attracted to the same sex just as you are attracted to the opposite sex.

 

I'm well-versed in that perspective but I don't share it.

 

There ARE organizations out there that deal with boy issues... and I am sure that a "Boys on the Run" would have just as many supporters and detractors as "Girls on the Run".

 

I don't know about that. I think it's quite likely some folks would decry such a group's exclusive focus on boys.

 

The point isn't about taking attention away from the majority...events like "gay pride parades" are not done to exclude the majority....they are intended to offer a sense of belonging and acceptance to those that are in the minority.

 

I see what you're saying; that makes sense.

 

A place to be among others in their same specific circumstance... and a way to attempt to 'normalize' it to those that think it is abnormal...which, incidentally, is why I disagree with the more "out there" approach of some participants...I think it plays into stereotypes and thus undermines the movement as a whole.

 

I wholeheartedly agree and had the same thought during the parade.

 

Sometimes it is in our OWN souls best interest to try to have empathy for those that we do not understand...most especially when it is something we don't agree with.

 

That's true, certainly.

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While I don't agree with the choice (yes, I consider it, ultimately, a choice) to lead a gay/lesbian lifestyle.....

 

Because ~ gee, call me crazy ~ I run into all kinds of young guys who suffer from the same unhealthy lifestyle, the same low self-esteem, as does any young girl. Maybe more, since on average, there are more boys are growing up without male mentors than there are girls growing up without female mentors."

 

 

Well - I don't really think sexuality is a choice. You are attracted to one sex or the other, or both..... period. Being HONEST about that sexuality IS a choice. (Hence - the man you mention coming out of the closet while he is married to a woman. Had he been honest before - he might not have married a woman. He is now choosing to be honest).

 

And - I think if you are a boy - male mentors are great. If you are a girl - female mentors are fabulous. BUT.....I have to say, I think girls need their dads in order to form healthy relationships with men in later life....and boys need their moms for the same.

 

I think most kids have a mom because moms generally don't ditch their kids as often as fathers do - obviously there are exceptions to this....but as a whole look around.

 

My question is this - WHY - whenever there is a positive thing going on - do people have to say, "Well.....I will do this and that opposite thing and see what people think about it." Instead of saying, "Wow, that's great to support healthy girls in our objectified culture of women." And if you feel the need - by all means - support the boys as well.

 

It's like the whole dumb issue regarding that Subway/Scholastic PS contest for some gym or playground money. It's that, "Oh - this doesn't include me so I will be offended" mentality. We should be thankful for the blessings on others - and start some of our own if we feel so called. But to negate a good thing because we don't feel it includes us is silly.

 

Would we begrudge a fire victim who lost everything because the charity they received didn't include our broken pipes and flooded house? I know it's human nature to be jealous sometimes - I am sooooooooo VERY jealous this week of every horse owner when I see their healthy happy horse grazing in the yard. But it doesn't mean I am going to open up their gate so we all suffer the same fate. I am thankful for their horses who are loved and safe.

 

Do what you need to do for your community of boys. It does suprize me however that you feel this way since your own kids have a farmer father they see on a regular basis and a mother who home schools them.

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I think at some point we- society, whoever- need to mature beyond the need to identify really strongly with characteristics like our sexual preference or our status as a downtrodden single mum or a black or a whatever makes us a subcatagory or set aside from the majority- get over it so to speak. We can acknowledge it, work with it, but we dont have to make such a big deal about it- although I do understand we probably need to go through a STAGE of making a big deal about it if society is prejudiced against us for our minority characteristic. but then, there is a point you Get Over needing to constantly prove a point- probably when you stop being angry at how much you were hurt by the societal prejudices.

 

I had a gay school friend- boy- and I have a gay brother-in-law and I guess its brothers-in-law (the kids have two uncles there instead of the normal uncle and aunt). All these people have outgrown the need to prove a point, to dress or talk in a particular way, or in any way identify strongly with their gayness, so it's just No Big Deal. If they wanted my acceptance and approval, I would probably recoil, but they don't, so they naturally have it because I don't need to relate to them through the filter of their identity as gay men- I can just relate to them as men, as humans.

I think all these things- celebration of minorities, Gay Parades- have a healing purpose, and are valid in that context. Its ok for me, as long as they are not shoving it in my face or guilt tripping me. At some point though, the identity just becomes a chain around the neck, and we need to just get back to being ordinary people. But people will do what they need to do until they no longer feel the need to do it.

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would have to say I really understand your point and agree! Obviously, by my signature line, I'm the mother of girls, so I'm speaking from observations I've made rather than personal experience.

 

I've met plenty of young boys who struggle with self-esteem issues as much as girls; it just doesn't get as much "press", so to speak, but it's definitely there. I can't think of titles off-hand, but I've seen plenty of books recently on the subject of boys and their needs, which I believe is a good trend.

 

To me, to be pro-female does not necessarily imply one's attitude should be anti-male. Unfortunately, I've even seen some children's literature or TV programs in which boys are portrayed as stupid or careless. The dads in some children's books and TV programs are portrayed as clueless until someone else comes in to rescue them from their stupidity. This does nothing to help self-image in boys. Equal respect for both genders is essential.

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:iagree: with you, Colleen. Dh and I were just talking about this the other day, when our town hosted its own Gay Parade. And the heterosexual pride parade subject came up. The newspaper interviewed the organizer and he said that the purpose of the parade was to raise awareness for the lifestyle. Okay. But...

 

I know several gay people - not one of them would even consider attending this parade. My friends mom and her partner of nearly 15 years said they are so far beyond needing validation that these sorts of festivals make them sad. They see it as well intended, but ultimately exploitive (sp?).

 

I don't get it either. And, ftr, I sincerely hope this thread stays on target for what it is intended and not turned into a debate on homosexuality.

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I have nothing against supporting the underdog, so to speak, uplifting those in a minority position. But it seems to this independent moderate that doing so often negates the possibility of giving equal attention and support to those in the majority. Am I making sense?

 

Perhaps it is that the majority find support in every day life. Everywhere I go, I run into married hetrosexual couples, affirming my life just through their presence. For minority groups, it isn't as pervasive and automatic so events and groups like you mention provide that affirmation.

 

Having said that most of the gays I know find Gay Pride Parades completely over the top.

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In a city nearby where I live, there is a medical practice that deals only with "Indian Health". It's not on a reservation or anything, but they make it quite clear that they are there exclusively to serve "Indians". I'm assuming that they mean Native Americans, and not folks from India, but that's another story....

 

But what I've always wondered is if "Indian" human beings had vastly different bodies than caucasian bodies, or black bodies, etc. :confused:

And, how much trouble would I get in if I started a medical practice and flat-out named it "White Health". I understand the idea that in the past certain medical practices did only treat white folks, but that's not happening any more around here. I'm pretty sure I'd be absolutely castigated for making it clear I'd only treat white people.

 

My understanding of equality ('ya know, where people are judged by the content of their character and not the color of their skin) would preclude the idea of basing any type of business specifically on just one race/color of skin.

 

What's evidenced to me by "Gay Pride" parades, and other such occasions, is that folks DO want to be judged by the extraneous details of their lives that make them fit whatever minority description they identify with.

 

I don't welcome "Gay Day" at Sea World, or the "Gay Pride" parade, because I think it's foolish for people who theoretically would like to see a more inclusive society to make it clear that what they want is not equality, but something beyond equality.

 

Nor do I want to see an "S & M Picnic Day" at my local park, or anyone else with an alternative lifestyle or minority status delighting in offending those who aren't quite ready to treat them like everybody else. Even though I'm relatively accepting of homosexuality (although I do believe engaging in it is a choice, just as is abstinence) if I'm really supposed to treat everybody equally, *please* quit telling me what you do in your bedroom, just as I agree not to describe to you what goes on in mine! It's a detail I just don't need to know since what I'm going for is to treat everyone I meet with respect and civility.

 

So, in a nutshell, I think the Gay Parade is..well...silly, and certainly isn't achieving what (I think) it's intended to. It encourages people to judge others by the very things that make them different, rather than helping create an inclusive society.

 

As for the Girls on the Run program, I'm not sure yet where I think things like that fit into the picture. :001_smile:

 

Respectfully,

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"Everyday is children's day," he wisely said. Likewise, I guess I see everyday as majority day.

Theoretically that's correct, but being the 'majority' also has negatives. Special treatment or preference-none.

When my children apply for colleges this will be very evident. Unless you are a 4.0 or higher student you will probably not attend the best three universities in Texas. Why? Because someone in their wisdom opted to give minorities the upper hand. Top 10% of ALL high school students are guaranteed to attend any TX university. Those students in lower SES school districts will be given grants, free tuition, etc. Those children who come from affluent communities (whether or not they're a beneficiary), will not be given preference. Why should being a blonde haired, blue eye Christian be a negative? If we constantly stand up for the alleged underdog, we then are claiming we have special privileges on a recurring basis. I just fundamentally don't agree with this.

Shouldn't we all be treated on equal ground?

 

Regarding the original poster, I agree with you. While I have nothing against Gay and Lesbian Parades, I also have no reason to promote it. Any more so than Promoting the Rights of the SPotted Owl. There are so many causes which could be addressed, that it seems to put energy where my personal interests lie. ie used to teach Literacy program as it's important all Americans learn to read.

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I think at some point we- society, whoever- need to mature beyond the need to identify really strongly with characteristics like our sexual preference or our status as a downtrodden single mum or a black or a whatever makes us a subcatagory or set aside from the majority- get over it so to speak. We can acknowledge it, work with it, but we dont have to make such a big deal about it- although I do understand we probably need to go through a STAGE of making a big deal about it if society is prejudiced against us for our minority characteristic. but then, there is a point you Get Over needing to constantly prove a point- probably when you stop being angry at how much you were hurt by the societal prejudices.

 

I had a gay school friend- boy- and I have a gay brother-in-law and I guess its brothers-in-law (the kids have two uncles there instead of the normal uncle and aunt). All these people have outgrown the need to prove a point, to dress or talk in a particular way, or in any way identify strongly with their gayness, so it's just No Big Deal. If they wanted my acceptance and approval, I would probably recoil, but they don't, so they naturally have it because I don't need to relate to them through the filter of their identity as gay men- I can just relate to them as men, as humans.

I think all these things- celebration of minorities, Gay Parades- have a healing purpose, and are valid in that context. Its ok for me, as long as they are not shoving it in my face or guilt tripping me. At some point though, the identity just becomes a chain around the neck, and we need to just get back to being ordinary people. But people will do what they need to do until they no longer feel the need to do it.

 

Yes. It's so tiresome to be told we need to accept people based, not on the whole person, but on some subset of identity.

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I'm not a parade kind of person for any group, I don't really see the point of them. I've had people try to convince me otherwise, but I'm not convinced of their usefulness. I don't begrudge anyone who wants one, by all means have at it. (This last bit is not directed at you Colleen, but parade organizers in general.)

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I remember this during my days at U of FL. There was a Black Student Union and a few guys got together and formed a White Student Union. Boy, that didn't go over well! They were not white supremists, just a bunch of Caucasian twenty-something males who felt in the minority because they couldn't compete with Affirmative Action quotas, qualify for special scholarships, or even form a club based on their race while others could. It was an interesting point, but ruffled a lot of feathers.

 

 

Whether I agree or disagree with the homosexual lifestyle, I do think the Gay Pride parades and such are counter-productive and I believe a Heterosexual Pride parade would be the same end. When we were at the Keys for our annual vacation, it was end of pride week and there was a parade. We didn't know of the parade and were downtown at the time. I had never seen such a thing, and it was very over the top. The crowds came to oogle and quite a few groups laughed at them. My opinion is that gays lost some credibility with that one. I think the same would be true of a heterosexual parade...it would be construed as a hate message whether intended to or not.

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I don't welcome "Gay Day" at Sea World, or the "Gay Pride" parade, because I think it's foolish for people who theoretically would like to see a more inclusive society to make it clear that what they want is not equality, but something beyond equality.

 

Neither do I want to see an "S & M Picnic Day" at my local park, or anyone else with an alternative lifestyle or minority status delighting in offending those who aren't quite ready to treat them like everybody else. Even though I'm relatively accepting of homosexuality (although I do believe engaging in it is a choice, just as is abstinence) if I'm really supposed to treat everybody equally, *please* quit telling me what you do in your bedroom, just as I agree not to describe to you what goes on in mine! It's a detail I just don't need to know since what I'm going for is to treat everyone I meet with respect and civility.

 

So, in a nutshell, I think the Gay Parade is..well...silly, and certainly isn't achieving what (I think) it's intended to. It encourages people to judge others by the very things that make them different, rather than helping create an inclusive society.

 

As for the Girls on the Run program, I'm not sure yet where I think things like that fit into the picture. :001_smile:

 

Respectfully,

:iagree:

 

I don't think we can create an inclusive society by emphasizing everyone's differences and placing higher values on some (minority) than others (majority). I think we are stronger when we can find common ground.

 

Just my .02

K

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Still, it does feel good to come together with like-minded individuals and celebrate, doesn't it? Like going to a homeschool convention. We're certainly a minority.

Michelle T

 

I don't think the logic on this one quite carries through...If we took the homeschool convention and held it out in the middle of a busy street and carried signs designed to offend/incite those who don't agree with our lifestyle rather than in convention halls, churches, and other less-disruptive places, then it might be closer to the same.

 

I would not object to a gay convention designed to support and encourage homosexuality held in a convention center. It's clear that the goal of a Gay Parade is not for homosexuals to get together and discuss how to better practice their "gayness" and meet other folks who are gay, but rather to be "in the face" of those who aren't gay. Different thing, I think.

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I don't welcome "Gay Day" at Sea World, or the "Gay Pride" parade, because I think it's foolish for people who theoretically would like to see a more inclusive society to make it clear that what they want is not equality, but something beyond equality.

 

 

 

The Gay Days at Disney and such are not in any way promoting something beyond equality. It's simply a week where gay men, lesbians, their families, and friends can know they'll be at Disney with lots of other people "like them." Comfort in numbers, right? It's not run by Disney, it's just something many people enjoy taking part in.

 

I see this as no different than group cruises for various sorts of people - my last cruise had a large "Gospel Group" - people from all over the country who enjoy gospel music cruised at the same time, to meet and enjoy each others' company. No one is asking for special consideration - sometimes it's just nice to be around friendly people who share similarities with you.

 

If I was in a same sex relationship, I would most definitely participate in things like Gay Days at Disney - especially as a family, it's nice to go into a situation you know will be welcoming and positive, when so often in life for gay and lesbian parents, they and their children face negativity on a regular basis.

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I'm not a parade kind of person for any group, I don't really see the point of them. I've had people try to convince me otherwise, but I'm not convinced of their usefulness. I don't begrudge anyone who wants one, by all means have at it. (This last bit is not directed at you Colleen, but parade organizers in general.)

 

 

Well I'm in New Orleans, where there's a parade for every occassion, so parades are just a fact of life. The Gay Pride parade is hardly a blip here because it's pretty small compared to the others. I guess it's a bigger deal in other parts of the country - I hadn't really thought of that! There's a swingers convention in town this week and they had a parade on Bourbon St last night - I wanted to catch that one, I'm sure it was a hoot, but we were both sick. I'll definitely bring the kids to the next gay pride parade, it's always lots of fun. And they throw beads - we don't attend parades where there are no throws, my kids are APPALLED by that concept, lol.

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I was in a store while the parade was going by and I wondered aloud, "Would people be on board if I organized a Heterosexual Pride parade?" Needless to say, several folks eyed me warily.
It would be a great thing, except... well, think about the people who would participate. A good chunk -- maybe even a majority -- of them wouldn't be celebrating heterosexuality, but would be making a statement against homosexuality. There's a big difference. I think we should be careful about the terms we co-opt as a majority in any situation. For example, how many would say "White Pride" invokes only images about a group feeling good about themselves?

"Ya know, maybe I'll start a Boys on the Run group and see how that title goes over. Because ~ gee, call me crazy ~ I run into all kinds of young guys who suffer from the same unhealthy lifestyle, the same low self-esteem, as does any young girl. Maybe more, since on average, there are more boys are growing up without male mentors than there are girls growing up without female mentors."
It's not the reasoning I take exception to, but rather the impulse to hit back with the same kind of exclusion you're chafing at. Why not advocate for inclusivity? After all, "Take Your Girls to Work Day" has morphed into "Take Your Kids to Work Day" for similar reasons to those you've cited.
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I think there is a lot more to the "Parade" than just comfort in numbers. While I have only seen one, the majority of participants are not what I would call your "average" homosexuals. I think that there may be a political agenda or maybe a "in your face" agenda to the parade?

 

I have quite a few friends that have come out of the closet through the years and a very good friend from work. He said that many in the community are offended by that type of flamboyancy and culture of the parades. Most of them want to be viewed as normal couples living normal lives just as heterosexuals and things like the parade are counter-productive to that.

 

I am not getting into the debate here whether I approve or disapprove of the lifestyle or whether I think it is inherited or not. I just choose as a Christian to love the person I'll leave it at that. ;)

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The Gay Days at Disney and such are not in any way promoting something beyond equality. It's simply a week where gay men, lesbians, their families, and friends can know they'll be at Disney with lots of other people "like them." Comfort in numbers, right? It's not run by Disney, it's just something many people enjoy taking part in.

 

I see this as no different than group cruises for various sorts of people - my last cruise had a large "Gospel Group" - people from all over the country who enjoy gospel music cruised at the same time, to meet and enjoy each others' company. No one is asking for special consideration - sometimes it's just nice to be around friendly people who share similarities with you.

 

If I was in a same sex relationship, I would most definitely participate in things like Gay Days at Disney - especially as a family, it's nice to go into a situation you know will be welcoming and positive, when so often in life for gay and lesbian parents, they and their children face negativity on a regular basis.

 

who loved Disney report to me that he'd never attend Gay Day in Disney after his experience there. This article reflects the story he told me...

http://www.wdwinfo.com/disney-gay-days.htm

 

He and his partner took his niece and nephew with them and he was very upset to have the experience tainted by outrageous behavior.

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who loved Disney report to me that he'd never attend Gay Day in Disney after his experience there. This article reflects the story he told me...

http://www.wdwinfo.com/disney-gay-days.htm

 

He and his partner took his niece and nephew with them and he was very upset to have the experience tainted by outrageous behavior.

 

 

I've read that before, and I'm completely unpersuaded. I have spoken with dozens of people who have gone to Disney during gay days and not experienced what this individual claims to have experienced. In addition, I've read numerous gay day threads on Disney boards which refuted the claims made in that article.

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I have lived in the homosexual community. My roommates were 3 flaming homosexual men. One of them was my cousin. I loved them (they have all passed on from AIDS..( ) and enjoyed a vibrant social life w/ them.

 

However, I saw the darkness and pain in their lives. A darkness that is deeper than many could every understand. I would not be part of any gay lifestyle support groups or political movements, though I love each of those immersed into it. I know this may not apply to all of those in sexual sin, but I saw it in a big way right before my eyes.

 

My children know about sexual sin and its consequences. They understand that it abounds in the world. They are aware of political movements and groups that band together to show a solidarity for a lifestyle (this also goes for Planned Parenthood).

 

We hope to show a solidarity as Christians to love all people. However, we do not want to endorse what we know is wrong. We are friends w/ a lesbian couple, whom we love dearly. However, we have not explained to our boys about their lifestyle. They are just our friends, and we have not felt it necessary to go into grave detail about the wrongs and rights of this couple's business. We also know people who have children out of wedlock, and who live together. They are our friends. But there is another side of the coin as well.

 

Lately I've noticed groups pushing a Father/Daughter relationship that seems to go over the top. Now I think it is very important for little girls to respect their parents, but some of this seems to advocate a worship of the earthly father. All in the name of a girl's relationship w/ her Heavenly Father. I don't know, maybe I'm just a cynic. Perhaps some girls do need to learn this.

 

My boys have their own informal club. They are just a bunch of guys who like to have fun and enjoy life. There is no agenda or rules. Just freedom in the Lord, and learning by His grace. They'd welcome anybody who wanted to join them for a good time.

 

I hope I'm making sense.

 

We just try to teach Biblical principles to our children and live them out in life. We respect those who band together for a certain ideal.

 

I don't know, I guess we just don't make a big deal out of certain things, kwim?

 

Blessings,

Camy

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Peela,

 

You said, "All these people have outgrown the need to prove a point, to dress or talk in a particular way, or in any way identify strongly with their gayness, so it's just No Big Deal. If they wanted my acceptance and approval, I would probably recoil, but they don't, so they naturally have it because I don't need to relate to them through the filter of their identity as gay men- I can just relate to them as men, as humans."

 

Well said.

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This issue seems so hypocritical to me. I remember in college there was a Women's Place. It was a room in the college where women could go in and know that no man could enter. There was counselling available, self-defence courses, computer courses, and other support - all free. It was a comfortable place where a woman could sit down, take a break, and have a cup of coffee.

 

There was nothing for the men.

 

I wrote a letter to our college paper wondering why, in this day and age of equal gender opportunities, the college was clearly favouring women by offering all kinds of extra support and funding to a Women's Place when there was *nothing* for the men. It drives me up the wall.

 

Same with health clubs. Why the *&%# can women have women's only health clubs but men can't have men only social clubs? If someone wants to have a club - have a club! But, it really bugs me that anything proporting to be Men's Only will be petitioned and taken to court until they allow women but then women get all whiny and demand to have women's only clubs.

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In a city nearby where I live, there is a medical practice that deals only with "Indian Health". It's not on a reservation or anything, but they make it quite clear that they are there exclusively to serve "Indians". I'm assuming that they mean Native Americans, and not folks from India, but that's another story....

 

But what I've always wondered if "Indian" human beings had vastly different bodies than caucasian bodies, or black bodies, etc. :confused:

And, how much trouble would I get in if I started a medical practice and flat-out named it "White Health". I understand the idea that in the past certain medical practices did only treat white folks, but that's not happening any more around here. I'm pretty sure I'd be absolutely castigated for making it clear I'd only treat white people.

 

You know, this doesn't bother me even the slightest. I think there are several reasons why a cultural/ethnic-specific medical practice might be appealing. First off, there *are* medical concerns that are more prevalent in certain populations -- in some cases with radically higher incidence than in the community at large. Second, cultural differences *are* important, and especially so in a setting as intimate as a doctor/patient relationship. One is exposed under the best of circumstances, so the opportunity to go somewhere where the doctor, nurses and staff understand your cultural boundaries has got to be pretty appealing. Third, there are obviously language issues. Medical jargon and specific anatomical language can be confusing in one's native language -- how much more so in a language one speaks "a little" to even "well, but with a few limitations".

 

I remember as a teenager having to go to the doctor in France. It's a country that's fairly similar to mine culturally, I spoke the language a bit (and my host family and doctor spoke English fairly well), and it was still a terrifying experience. I was already sick and alone, didn't know exactly what was going on, couldn't interpret my own lab results... And my situation was a really *positive* one!

 

So no, I have zero problem with doctors who cater to specific ethnic / cultural groups. (And in my limited experience living in a city with many ethnic-specific clinics was that they would serve anyone who came in, regardless of race -- though there might be language barriers with some of the staff.)

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However, I saw the darkness and pain in their lives. A darkness that is deeper than many could every understand.

 

 

 

I've seen this too in many friends, but that darkness and pain came from parental rejection, being kicked out of the house, being denied jobs, being victims of hate crimes, and having other similar life experiences. I did not feel that the pain came in ANY way from their loving the same gender - the pain came from people that did not accept them for who they were. I also knew one gay man who was so filled with self-loathing it broke my heart - but again, this internal hatred was brought on by his experiences with his family - his father was a minister and was anything but supportive.

 

I know some people will want to say this darkness and pain is the result of a sinful lifestyle - I say it's the result of sin on the part of those that judge them.

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I do understand the motivation by some to organized groups especially for political reasons.

 

I think that groups are trying to express themselves to the rest of the world and seek approval.

 

Some homosexuals want the rest of us to confirm their lifestyle, and thus obtain the status given to heterosexual couples (in many cases). Certain heterosexual groups are trying to state their belief in who they are and fight against the blurred lines between male and female in our culture.

 

It is a blessing to live in a free country, imo! Both voices are heard and expressed.

 

Blessings,

 

Camy

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I've seen this too in many friends, but that darkness and pain came from parental rejection, being kicked out of the house, being denied jobs, being victims of hate crimes, and having other similar life experiences. I did not feel that the pain came in ANY way from their loving the same gender - the pain came from people that did not accept them for who they were.
I tried to rep you for this, but I've loved you too much already. :)
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I didn't mean to say that the pain comes from the lifestyle itself. There is always a bigger picture when it comes to people.

 

These guys were just hurting people who seemd to want to hurt more, yet they didn't understand what true joy was. Some of what I saw was so disturbing, that it made my stomach ache.

 

I see heterosexual people who are hurting just as much. Even married people. So many suffer in this world.

 

Blessings,

Camy

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Tell me when and where for the heterosexual pride parade and the Boys on the Run club and we'll be there!!! Well, we would if we weren't so far across this great nation of ours from where you are! ;) It's all hypocrisy to me the lifting and blessing and hoorahing over one group in the way I regularly see it done while there would be disinterest at best and outrage at worst if the opposite were done.

 

I read what Camy wrote and I so agree with her.

 

T

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A place to be among others in their same specific circumstance... and a way to attempt to 'normalize' it to those that think it is abnormal...which, incidentally, is why I disagree with the more "out there" approach of some participants...I think it plays into stereotypes and thus undermines the movement as a whole. But I digress....anyhow, the point I am making is that until you have really had to suffer the way that some minorities have had too...or are. It is hard to understand how good for the soul such events can be. Sometimes it is in our OWN souls best interest to try to have empathy for those that we do not understand...most especially when it is something we don't agree with. :001_smile:

 

 

Yes, this is exactly how I feel also. I'm all for various groups giving each other strength, support, a feeling of "normality". I'm not so keen on in-your-face stereotypes, which only cause whatever minority group to be even more ostracized by the majority.

MIchelle T

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I've seen this too in many friends, but that darkness and pain came from parental rejection, being kicked out of the house, being denied jobs, being victims of hate crimes, and having other similar life experiences. I did not feel that the pain came in ANY way from their loving the same gender - the pain came from people that did not accept them for who they were. I also knew one gay man who was so filled with self-loathing it broke my heart - but again, this internal hatred was brought on by his experiences with his family - his father was a minister and was anything but supportive.

 

I know some people will want to say this darkness and pain is the result of a sinful lifestyle - I say it's the result of sin on the part of those that judge them.

 

 

This is so beautifully put. I agree with every word. Who wouldn't have darkness and pain in their lives if they faced the organized, systematic prejudice, discrimination, hatred, and actual danger that gays face?

 

The fact that they are still gay despite all of that only proves to me that it isn't a "choice" on their part. Very few people would choose to be something that inspires such a level of hatred in others.

Michelle T

Michelle T

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Why should being a blonde haired, blue eye Christian be a negative? If we constantly stand up for the alleged underdog, we then are claiming we have special privileges on a recurring basis. I just fundamentally don't agree with this. Shouldn't we all be treated on equal ground?

 

This opens the door to a whole different set of issues which fall outside the bounds of the OP. I have some definite thoughts, but I hesitate to highjack the thread. If you are interested in pursuing this further, maybe you could start a new thread. I'm sure it would likely pique the interest of many people on this forum. :001_smile:

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I have lived in the homosexual community. My roommates were 3 flaming homosexual men. One of them was my cousin. I loved them (they have all passed on from AIDS..( ) and enjoyed a vibrant social life w/ them.

 

However, I saw the darkness and pain in their lives. A darkness that is deeper than many could every understand. I would not be part of any gay lifestyle support groups or political movements, though I love each of those immersed into it. I know this may not apply to all of those in sexual sin, but I saw it in a big way right before my eyes.

 

My children know about sexual sin and its consequences. They understand that it abounds in the world. They are aware of political movements and groups that band together to show a solidarity for a lifestyle (this also goes for Planned Parenthood).

 

We hope to show a solidarity as Christians to love all people. However, we do not want to endorse what we know is wrong. We are friends w/ a lesbian couple, whom we love dearly. However, we have not explained to our boys about their lifestyle. They are just our friends, and we have not felt it necessary to go into grave detail about the wrongs and rights of this couple's business. We also know people who have children out of wedlock, and who live together. They are our friends. But there is another side of the coin as well.

 

 

 

How lucky they are (were) to have someone that accepts them and loves them as whole people... said with sarcasm because I am really sick to my stomach at how judgemental some of these posts have been....it saddens me so deeply...you have no idea. What I am most depressed about is that you and others will never change your mind... I mean, if Jesus' own words won't heal your hearts than certainly nothing *I* can say will....and so many wonderful and exceptional people will suffer for it....and if you don't think that your homosexual friends and family see the judgement in your eyes you are seriously and sadly deluded...:sad:

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I have nothing against supporting the underdog, so to speak, uplifting those in a minority position. But it seems to this independent moderate that doing so often negates the possibility of giving equal attention and support to those in the majority. Am I making sense?

 

Why would one need to give equal support and attention to those who are the status quo? Do we need to form a "White College-Educated Men Trying To Succeed in Corporate America" foundation? No, they are the status quo.

 

eta: They may have struggles on an *individual* basis but that has nothing to do with their standing as a group.

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How lucky they are (were) to have someone that accepts them and loves them as whole people... said with sarcasm because I am really sick to my stomach at how judgemental some of these posts have been...

 

 

if you don't think that your homosexual friends and family see the judgement in your eyes you are seriously and sadly deluded...:sad:

 

What were you saying about being judgmental? How would you classify open sarcasm and saying you are made "sick to your stomach"?

 

If her homosexual friends really feel "judgment" from Camy and her family, why would they continue to be friends? That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Your post was so rife WITH judgment against Camy that I couldn't let it pass.

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Except that men are not in the majority any longer, at least not in higher education. So much emphasis has been placed on "Reviving Ophelia" that many boys/young men are falling by the wayside.

 

While there is a slightly higher percentage of women attending college, the percentage of men *completing degrees* is still higher than the percentage for women.

 

Also, I was thinking more of the book Savage Inequalities which deals more with race and class than sex.

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That is an excellent book (Savage Inequalities) So, so true. It is interesting/frightening how much of the inequalities seem to be tied to class and income level. Sort of sets up a never ending downward spiral. : (

 

I read a book a few months ago (the title of which escapes me) that was fascinating. It was the research findings of the guys who studied language acquisition and tied it to social outcome.

 

Someone posted here about the book. If I think of it, I'll post it. : )

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Except that men are not in the majority any longer, at least not in higher education. So much emphasis has been placed on "Reviving Ophelia" that many boys/young men are falling by the wayside.

 

Yes and universities are so PC now that you can't even use the general "he said" or professors can be reported for margninalizing women. At dh's university the professors had to either say "she" or "he/she". The fact that someone could use "she" to generally refer but not "he" is pretty sexist in the opposite direction.

 

I'm tired of how far things have come. I don't see why we can't have equal opportunity instead of providing advantages for one sex while completely ignoring the other.

 

I think it's so hypocritical to say that "he..." is sexist but it's perfectly acceptable to say, "she...".

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What were you saying about being judgmental? How would you classify open sarcasm and saying you are made "sick to your stomach"?

 

If her homosexual friends really feel "judgment" from Camy and her family, why would they continue to be friends? That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Your post was so rife WITH judgment against Camy that I couldn't let it pass.

 

So, I should have been more subtle with my sarcasm then? Not exactly sure what your point is supposed to be against my sick stomach...but, OK.

 

And, as to why they remain friends....I have no idea. I often wonder why certain people remain friends...but it happens a lot. I've seen it in several threads right here on these very boards.... I'm sort of scratching my head at how you could think that a friend that was being judged harshly would not feel hurt.... I don't want to make this about Camy, specifically....and I should have qualified my opinions on the subject more solidly....I have a major problem with a lot of what has been posted in this thread.... I take it quite personally when maybe I shouldn't...I don't know. But I have a little sister that is a WONDERFUL human being and whom I love very very much....and while she has a lot of faults....being gay is NOT one of them. And I have/had many friends that are gay....and they are all fantastic people as well....and they all have had faults....but being gay wasn't one of them. Sexuality is a ridiculous thing to cast judgement upon others for....there are far better reasons for MOST people. ;)

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You start the boys club and I am there!

 

Unfortunately, the hetereosexual pride parade would probably be taken over by scary people. Possibly like the gay pride parade, sometimes.

 

Can't you just picture all these nice normal people showing up to the parade and running into the S&M people and all the swingers?

 

 

You are something else....:glare: At least one regular poster here has already admitted that she and her husband swing....and you would be surprised by how many "normal" people practice S&M....and you would probably be SHOCKED to know that some very very "nice" people get their freak on....

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You are something else....:glare: At least one regular poster here has already admitted that she and her husband swing....and you would be surprised by how many "normal" people practice S&M....and you would probably be SHOCKED to know that some very very "nice" people get their freak on....

 

Call me a stereotyping jerk if you'd like, but I'm filing this one under, "Things I Never Thought I'd Read on TWTM Boards".

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