Race to Nowhere - your thoughts?

[dereksurfs]

Ok,

 

In another recent thread started by Amber regarding starting Algebra by 8th grade this film was brought up which I had never heard of before. In looking it up I couldn't find a showing anywhere near. However I did find a great interview with the producer and Katie Couric describing this modern day dilema both kids and parent are facing in America (see link below).

 

I am hoping to get your thoughts on it without hijacking the original thread too much. I realize we won't all agree on these critical challenges facing our children or current institutional practices. But I still value your input as we plan ahead from this life stage and beyond.

 

One of the most interesting things discussed was this overemphasis on AP classes followed by memorizing a bunch of facts to get A's on the AP tests. And then students moving on to the next one forgetting most of what was covered - one brain dump to the next. Teachers teach to the AP test and students study to the test while critical thinking and other more important apsects of higher learning are de-emphasized. Both students and teachers found this to be a common problem within the current system they work in.

 

There was mention in the prior thread about the shock some parents felt when their DC didn't get into top tier schools even with ~ 10 AP classes. But the funny thing is as described in the film quite a number of schools including top universities are placing less weight on this now. Its become so common for kids and parents to cram a bunch of AP classes in that the schools are looking for 'other' indicators of academic potential. We're losing the ability to teach that spirit of innovation, creativity, collaboration and exploration which makes America great. Instead kids are exchanging those critical and creative thinking skills for enhanced rote memory skills in order to pass more standardized tests. I like that some schools are reducing or eliminating APs for this very reason.

 

The most shocking part is the intense pressure kids feel with these classes to get As, so much so that some have even killed themselves over it. What a horrible outcome to the well meaning parent and school efforts in this race toward supposed success. Imagine the pressure that must have been felt by a 13 y/o girl to see no other way to relieve her pain than to take her own life... Tragic!

 

 

The trailer is good as well:

 

Edited September 21, 2012 by dereksurfs

[Crimson Wife]

An interesting counterpoint: "The Ivy Delusion" by Caitlin Flanagan.

 

"One thing the good mothers love to do—something they undertake with the same 'fierce urgency of now' with which my mom used to protest the Vietnam War—is organize viewings of a documentary called Race to Nowhere...The thesis of the film, echoed by an array of parents and experts, is that we can change the experience and reduce the stress and produce happier kids, so long as we all work together on the problem. This is the critical factor, it seems, the one thing on which all voices are in concert: no parent can do this alone; everyone has to agree to change. But of course parents can do this individually. By limiting the number of advanced courses and extracurricular classes a child takes, and by imposing bedtimes no matter what the effect on the GPA, they will immediately solve the problem of stress and exhaustion. It’s what I like to call the Rutgers Solution. If you make the decision—and tell your child about it early on—that you totally support her, you’re wildly engaged with her intellectual pursuits, but you will not pay for her to attend any college except Rutgers, everything will fall into place. She’ll take AP calculus if she’s excited by the challenge, max out at trig if not. It doesn’t matter, either way—Hello, New Brunswick!

But the good mothers will never do that, because when they talk about the soul-crushing race to nowhere, the “nowhere” they’re really talking about (more or less) is Rutgers. And more to the point, while you’re busily getting your child’s life back on track, Amy Chua and her daughters aren’t blinking."

The Asian parents I know aren't fretting over whether their kids are "overstressed" and waxing all rhapsodic over Race to Nowhere. No, they are getting all Tiger Mom and making sure their kids know how to "play the game" to be successful when it comes to getting into college.

[8filltheheart]

The beauty of homeschooling is that you don't have to attempt to be a cookie-cutter replica of anything! :) One of the main reasons we homeschool is b/c I do reject superficial knowledge-based education (and it is most definitely NOT restricted to high school level AP work.) Every single one of my kids' education is uniquely their own and does not replicate their siblings' coursework, especially at the high school level. If you saw the transcripts of my 3 high school graduates and my 11th grader's, you would never think that they "attended" the same "school." :)

 

Never in a million yrs would I want to be a Tiger Mom. My entire parental and educational philosophy is around developing internal self-motivation in my kids which guides their own choices and decisions as they get older. By high school, they are huge determiners in what they study.

 

So, if my kids are ready for high-level challenging work, that is typically what they themselves choose to do. College-level work at a young age for the ready and motivated student is not at all a negative. It is something to be encouraged (but most definitely not forced. :tongue_smilie:)

 

FWIW, homeschooling for AP level courses does NOT have to mean replicating what ps schools do w/memorization over content. BTDT. ;) Ds started off last yr in a very repetitive plug and chug AP cal BC course. It was completely wiping out his joy in doing math b/c it was so far beneath what he had spent the last several yrs doing. We (he and I together......one thing to keep in mind is that educating young adults is not the equivalent of educating little kids. Respecting that this is their education and that their goals should be a HUGE guiding force......(well, I am going to let that remain incomplete ;) )) anyway, we decided that dropping that course and taking the AoPS course which definitely does NOT teach to the test, was the best decision for him educationally. And, it absolutely was.

 

Anyway, for homeschoolers, the opportunity to develop personal interests and shine educationally are bounded only by what they/you choose to do. There is no way my kids will do boatloads of APs b/c the subject lists/test contents don't mesh w/how we approach education in general, but for the tests that overlap our educational objectives, absolutely.

 

I have zero "fear-factor" on racing to nowhere. We are heading toward their personal objectives daily. :001_smile:

[Catherine]

Caitlan Flanagan nailed it. You simply can't have it both ways. Yes, I think APs are a semi-useless brain dump and I blame the US News rankings for the explosive growth in APs. But you can't get into Harvard if you've spent your high school years lollygagging through less challenging courses.

[Beth in SW WA]

From the other thread....

 

I never quite understood the AP race, and now I'm quite glad I never bought into it. If everyone is special, then no one is. It ends up bringing down the courses for all of the students, instead of letting the really special ones shine.

 

I respectfully disagree. Dd15 is in AP Spanish (level 4). She plans to take AP English & History next year with more APs her senior year along with other college classes. Taught right, the classes are 'special' and the students should receive recognition. The AP test score will speak for itself.

Derek,

I don't consider my older dc's schooling a race to nowhere. I watched the original movie a couple years ago when it was discussed here at length on the forum. The movie did not influence our choices. I like what we have going here for all our kids. Yes, we play the game. Will my dc have brain dump on some material? Sure. I'm not concerned. College-level, AP and college-prep classes -- combined with excellent teachers -- has been and I hope will continue to be a fruitful combo. My 4 dc LOVE learning. What more can I ask for? :)

[dereksurfs]

I found it interesting reading Caitlin Flanagan's rebutal in that the focus wasn't so much on the current obvious problems with the educational system but rather on 'doing what it takes' in spite of it to get into the top schools. This seems like a means to ends pragmatic approach if that really is the primary objective or definition of success for the 'Tiger Mom.' So I think I understand where this drive to the top is coming from.

 

Our definition of success for our kids academically is significantly different from the Tiger Mom. As such I relate much more to the Producer's points of view regarding need for significant change starting first with our own approach with our kids. I did like Vicki's answer to Caitlin's article. The good news is this forum can span everyone from Tiger Moms (and Dads) to the Good Moms (and Dads) which Caitlin describes.

 

"Flanagan and I may agree on one point. In concluding her article, she writes, "Life is a series of choices, each with its own rewards and consequences . . . At best--at the very best--it can only offer us choices between two good things, and as we grasp at one, we lose the other forever." If the choice is between (A) pushing my children--physically, emotionally, and mentally--to the extremes of unhealthy limits so they can try to grasp that elusive Ivy-coated brass ring, or (B) encouraging their passions, instilling good values, protecting their health, and focusing on the "right fit" college for their personality, learning style, and interests, then this "good mother" has already made her choice. I choose B. So, too, do the 500,000-plus good mothers, fathers, teachers, principals, students, and others who have seen, discussed, and continue to support the message behind Race to Nowhere."

-- http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2011/05/good-mother-vs-tiger-mother-a-response-to-caitlin-flanagan/238442/ Edited September 22, 2012 by dereksurfs

[dereksurfs]

The beauty of homeschooling is that you don't have to attempt to be a cookie-cutter replica of anything! :) One of the main reasons we homeschool is b/c I do reject superficial knowledge-based education (and it is most definitely NOT restricted to high school level AP work.) Every single one of my kids' education is uniquely their own and does not replicate their siblings' coursework, especially at the high school level. If you saw the transcripts of my 3 high school graduates and my 11th grader's, you would never think that they "attended" the same "school." :)

 

Never in a million yrs would I want to be a Tiger Mom. My entire parental and educational philosophy is around developing internal self-motivation in my kids which guides their own choices and decisions as they get older. By high school, they are huge determiners in what they study.

 

So, if my kids are ready for high-level challenging work, that is typically what they themselves choose to do. College-level work at a young age for the ready and motivated student is not at all a negative. It is something to be encouraged (but most definitely not forced. :tongue_smilie:)

 

FWIW, homeschooling for AP level courses does NOT have to mean replicating what ps schools do w/memorization over content. BTDT. ;) Ds started off last yr in a very repetitive plug and chug AP cal BC course. It was completely wiping out his joy in doing math b/c it was so far beneath what he had spent the last several yrs doing. We (he and I together......one thing to keep in mind is that educating young adults is not the equivalent of educating little kids. Respecting that this is their education and that their goals should be a HUGE guiding force......(well, I am going to let that remain incomplete ;) )) anyway, we decided that dropping that course and taking the AoPS course which definitely does NOT teach to the test, was the best decision for him educationally. And, it absolutely was.

 

Anyway, for homeschoolers, the opportunity to develop personal interests and shine educationally are bounded only by what they/you choose to do. There is no way my kids will do boatloads of APs b/c the subject lists/test contents don't mesh w/how we approach education in general, but for the tests that overlap our educational objectives, absolutely.

 

I have zero "fear-factor" on racing to nowhere. We are heading toward their personal objectives daily. :001_smile:

 

As always I find your practical experiences and insights very helpful 8FillTheHeart. I think we have a similar philosophy of education and parenting.

[Crimson Wife]

I found it interesting reading Caitlin Flanagan's rebutal in that the focus wasn't so much on the current obvious problems with the educational system but rather on 'doing what it takes' in spite of it to get into the top schools. This seems like a means to ends pragmatic approach if that really is the primary objective or definition of success for the 'Tiger Mom.' So I think I understand where this drive to the top is coming from.

 

The problem is much, much bigger than our educational system. It's with the whole economic system where the middle class is disappearing and more and more the choice is either become a highly educated knowledge worker or earn peanuts at some low level service job. A few months ago, I read Charles Murray's Coming Apart: The State of White America 1960-2010 and it was really depressing the divergence between the upper-middle-class & affluent families and working class folks.

 

I know which side of the class divide I want my kids to end up on, and if that means I have to take a bit of a "means to ends" approach in regards to their education, so be it.

[regentrude]

The problem is much, much bigger than our educational system. It's with the whole economic system where the middle class is disappearing and more and more the choice is either become a highly educated knowledge worker or earn peanuts at some low level service job. ...

 

 

 

I agree - but I see daily that it is possible to become highly educated without jumping through all the hoops and attending one of those extremely selective schools. I think the graduates from my public university do just fine, with their average 60k starting salary upon graduation - even though they did not need handfuls of APs to be admitted.

 

In our homeschool, we refuse to see the high school years solely as a preparation period for college. These years are our kids' lives, not some waiting period before "real" life begins. We want them to explore their interests and do things they enjoy in addition to receiving a rigorous education. We consider it very important to find the balance. I want my DD to ride horses and sing in choir and write fiction during these years and not just to spend every single minute studying to be able to check all boxes that maybe increase the chances of getting into selective U. To me, that would be too high a price to pay.

ETA: that does not mean we are academic slackers; she is doing rigorous coursework - but because she is interested and wants to learn, not because it looks good on the trascript.

Edited September 22, 2012 by regentrude

[8filltheheart]

Well, I took the time this morning to read the article linked by CW. (I guess I should have done more than base my original reply strictly on the posts on this forum.) I actually find the entire premise of both views linked disturbing. :tongue_smilie: Perhaps I live in my own bubble, but I cannot even remotely relate to viewing my children like any of the POV described by either side. .:confused:

 

I don't believe I can really articulate what I am thinking, but I would guess the word "detachment" would be the most appropriate. I do not feel "attached" to my young adult children's successes or failures. They are theirs based on their individual choices. Our entire goal is to provide a solid foundation and instill faith and virtue and hopefully assist them in becoming the "who" they want to be......but none of that is connected to worldly definitions of successes/failures. Tying up view of self to an external worldview of "success/failure" (or anything as insignificant as college admissions) is apparently the equivalent of speaking Venus vs. Mars........I cannot connect to it at all. (ETA: I guess it is why I love Augustine's quote that is in my sig. It is a thought does guide our life choices.)

 

Nor can I even begin to relate to an assumption that earning a solidly middle class income is relegated to an Ivy League education. Our familial experience (both my dh's and ds's education/employment) defies that contention.

 

Oh well, this conversation has been enlightening. I am starting to understand why I always sense that conversations w/ other mothers in our neighborhood actually me feeling like we are speaking in different languages.....I think we really are! :lol:

Edited September 22, 2012 by 8FillTheHeart

[Trish]

Well, I took the time this morning to read the article linked by CW. (I guess I should have done more than base my original reply strictly on the posts on this forum.) I actually find the entire premise of both views linked disturbing. :tongue_smilie: Perhaps I live in my own bubble, but I cannot even remotely relate to viewing my children like any of the POV described by either side. .:confused:

 

I don't believe I can really articulate what I am thinking, but I would guess the word "detachment" would be the most appropriate. I do not feel "attached" to my young adult children's successes or failures. They are theirs based on their individual choices. Our entire goal is to provide a solid foundation and instill faith and virtue and hopefully assist them in becoming the "who" they want to be......but none of that is connected to worldly definitions of successes/failures. Tying up view of self to an external worldview of "success/failure" (or anything as insignificant as college admissions) is apparently the equivalent of speaking Venus vs. Mars........I cannot connect to it at all. (ETA: I guess it is why I love Augustine's quote that is in my sig. It is a thought does guide our life choices.)

 

Nor can I even begin to relate to an assumption that earning a solidly middle class income is relegated to an Ivy League education. Our familial experience (both my dh's and ds's education/employment) defies that contention.

 

Oh well, this conversation has been enlightening. I am starting to understand why I always sense that conversations w/ other mothers in our neighborhood actually me feeling like we are speaking in different languages.....I think we really are! :lol:

 

We're relatively new to homeschooling, so I'm not even sure I understand what your philosophy encompasses. Can you give an example of what your kids do that broadens them in the way you're talking about? How did they develop their "interest-led" interests? What types of things are conducive to your philosophy?

[justamouse]

It's a fast rushing river.

 

Just step to the side and let it all pass by.

 

That can be terrifying, (and I'm not talking about unschooling here) but what I've found is that we get there, and the kids far surpass my own expectations, and, everyone else's.

 

We don't need to be troubled by it.

[8filltheheart]

We're relatively new to homeschooling, so I'm not even sure I understand what your philosophy encompasses. Can you give an example of what your kids do that broadens them in the way you're talking about? How did they develop their "interest-led" interests? What types of things are conducive to your philosophy?

 

;) It would take a book to explain. There probably is a book-length explanation in my previous posts on this forum. :tongue_smilie:

 

But, in a nut-shell, the "definition" level explanation would be that I do not "tell" my kids what they are going to study. What we study is a collaborative effort between me and them individually. Even when they are in elementary school I talk to them about multiple options and they get to make the final decisions. I control their assignments and output requirements, but the "what" is not my "informing" them.

 

A good example is my oldest when he was in high school. I strongly suggested that he study physics. That yr he wanted to take anatomy and physiology b/c his then girl-friend (now wife) was taking A&P and she struggled w/science. He wanted to take it in order to be able to help her. I told him it was not the best choice b/c he wanted to major in chemical engineering, but he was adamant. So, he took A&P. He graduated high school w/o a physics credit. (He had biology, chemistry, A&P, and 2 semesters of university chemistry.) His first full-blown physics course was in college. The natural consequence of his decision was that he had to work his tail off in that class. Yep. (That "yep" is my total feeling toward it. His choice and he had to live through how it affected him. ;) ) (I get the impression that both the "tiger mom" and the "good mom" described in the link would go nuts w/that type of parenting.)

[Soror]

Here is *the* thread where 8 pontificates on interest led education :)

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showthread.php?t=173293&highlight=tea

[boscopup]

Nor can I even begin to relate to an assumption that earning a solidly middle class income is relegated to an Ivy League education. Our familial experience (both my dh's and ds's education/employment) defies that contention.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: Frankly, of all the solidly middle class to upper middle class people I know, NONE of them went to Ivies, except one guy that did a 6 week MBA course at Harvard last year that I think his company sent him to. I'm pretty sure the schools that got him to where he was as a successful engineer were just state schools, and not ones that are particularly difficult to get into. In my area, experience and hard work matters so much more than what school you went to. My DH has had multiple job offers recently (one when he wasn't even looking for one yet!), and he has a BS from the local state university that isn't really known for being cream of the crop. What got him into his first job? Co-op experience. What got him into the next jobs? Experience at previous jobs. No one cares that he didn't go to MIT or GA Tech. He went to a state school he could afford that isn't hard to get into, as did many of his colleagues. What gets him paid well is the fact that he uses his brain to solve problems, and he works very hard (and going to the state school without scholarship or financial aid and having to work two full time jobs to pay his own way really made the biggest difference in his long term work ethic).

 

;) It would take a book to explain.

 

PLEASE DO write a book!!! :D

 

:lol:

[butterflymommy]

Does anyone know where I can see this docu? I can only "save" it on netflix.

 

The most successful people I know attended state schools, one of those is currently making 7 figures.

 

I attended ivy league and there were a number of suicide attempts, and successful suicides, each year. That may not be unique to ivy league but it's kind of crazy if you think about it. All these people vying to get in, and once they're there they are suffering so much they want to take their life. I remember one young man jumped out the window of the science building (about 8 floors up).

 

As far as the choice between menial service work and white collar jobs, I just want my kids to be at peace, in healthy relationships, and in non abusive work environments. I would hope my daughters have the option of being SAHMs if that's what they want. I'd also like them to be in helping professions, whether lofty or humble. I do constantly emphasize the importance of education but I'm not a tiger mom. I don't try to force anything. So it's an experiment in progress!

 

"The Color of Water" is a good book indirectly about this issue. A woman raises 12(? maybe more) kids on her own, in poverty, all went on to have professional degrees. Both her husbands died and the second one never lived with her.

[dereksurfs]

:iagree::iagree::iagree: Frankly, of all the solidly middle class to upper middle class people I know, NONE of them went to Ivies, except one guy that did a 6 week MBA course at Harvard last year that I think his company sent him to. I'm pretty sure the schools that got him to where he was as a successful engineer were just state schools, and not ones that are particularly difficult to get into. In my area, experience and hard work matters so much more than what school you went to. My DH has had multiple job offers recently (one when he wasn't even looking for one yet!), and he has a BS from the local state university that isn't really known for being cream of the crop. What got him into his first job? Co-op experience. What got him into the next jobs? Experience at previous jobs. No one cares that he didn't go to MIT or GA Tech. He went to a state school he could afford that isn't hard to get into, as did many of his colleagues. What gets him paid well is the fact that he uses his brain to solve problems, and he works very hard (and going to the state school without scholarship or financial aid and having to work two full time jobs to pay his own way really made the biggest difference in his long term work ethic).

 

PLEASE DO write a book!!! :D

 

:lol:

 

In my experience as a hiring manager for a fortune 500 company this is what really counts. No one on our hiring team cares even remotely as much about a pedigree as we do experience and demonstrated initiative. The notion that someone must attend an Ivy or similar school to attain some level of success as a highly trained worker is false. While there are some select companies that hire 'their own' that is no way the majority or standard in the IT industry which I work in.

 

In hiring junior engineers, for example, I have *never* seen a case where two candidates had all things equal besides their pedigree. In each and every case the final decision to hire has been based upon their *experiences* including internships/co-ops which best match the job they are applying for. I also know of a recent colleague who accepted a position in the Silicon Valley with a company founded by Stanford grads. Although that co. typically tends to hire the same he was hired over others because of his high level of skills. He attended a state school.

 

This same principle applies for the majority of professions within the US. I know many successful medical professionals who attended state schools for example. Based on the overwelming evidence I reject any notion that only Ivy grads are employable in highly skilled careers. It simply isn't true.

Edited September 22, 2012 by dereksurfs

[justamouse]

Our life experience has shown us that it's not the degree that people look at. I'm really not looking at colleges with a name, I look at colleges that have a good reputation for what she wants to get a degree in and what we can afford. Hard work and internships can get her the rest of the way.

[Crimson Wife]

Nor can I even begin to relate to an assumption that earning a solidly middle class income is relegated to an Ivy League education. Our familial experience (both my dh's and ds's education/employment) defies that contention.

 

And what I've observed in my and DH's extended family has been the opposite.

 

Nearly all of my relatives are graduates of prestigious colleges (mix of private & public) and most have graduate/professional degrees from elite universities (again a mix of private & public). The only two who don't are the only two who are struggling financially.

 

In DH's family, only DH, one of his uncles, and that uncle's two kids are graduates of prestigious colleges. They are also the only ones who are doing well financially. DH's little brother got accepted to Notre Dame but let FIL discourage him from attending like FIL tried to discourage DH from attending Stanford. BIL graduated from the local no-name state college in 2010 and the only job he could get was one that he had held straight out of high school as a Target cashier. Now it's certainly possible that BIL would've still had trouble finding a good job had he graduated from Notre Dame, but I think it would've been far easier with a "brand name" school on his resume.

[dereksurfs]

And what I've observed in my and DH's extended family has been the opposite.

 

Nearly all of my relatives are graduates of prestigious colleges (mix of private & public) and most have graduate/professional degrees from elite universities (again a mix of private & public). The only two who don't are the only two who are struggling financially.

 

In DH's family, only DH, one of his uncles, and that uncle's two kids are graduates of prestigious colleges. They are also the only ones who are doing well financially. DH's little brother got accepted to Notre Dame but let FIL discourage him from attending like FIL tried to discourage DH from attending Stanford. BIL graduated from the local no-name state college in 2010 and the only job he could get was one that he had held straight out of high school as a Target cashier. Now it's certainly possible that BIL would've still had trouble finding a good job had he graduated from Notre Dame, but I think it would've been far easier with a "brand name" school on his resume.

 

This helps understand your perspective based on your immediate family and how things seemed to work out. Many of us have observed this not to be the case in the majority of work environments we are in nor for our friends or families. That said I certainly don't think an Ivy school is a bad thing per se, even if somewhat overrated depending on the field of study.

 

I know some pride themselves in their alma mater. My BIL has USC everything and insists on going to the all games, etc... I find it mildly amusing to somewhat obnoxious, especially since my dad was a UCLA ulum.:tongue_smilie: I also don't think his USC degree has helped him more than one from a state school would have in his profession of finance. He is not very happy in his job and planning a complete career change working on his PhD in family counseling. My SIL graduated top of her class from UCSD, a highly regarded UC school. Yet she could not find a job in her area of study (international business). So she ended up taking a very low paying job just to make ends meet. My wife on the other hand with only an AS degree in business was able to put me through school while I was working toward my masters degree. The big difference was my wife is very talented in accounting and basically learned most of what she knows on the job. Now she is happily a SAHM doing exactly what she enjoys doing. We have many friends with a variety of these same experiences.

Edited September 22, 2012 by dereksurfs

[Jenny in Florida]

In our homeschool, we refuse to see the high school years solely as a preparation period for college. These years are our kids' lives, not some waiting period before "real" life begins. We want them to explore their interests and do things they enjoy in addition to receiving a rigorous education. We consider it very important to find the balance.

 

Bingo. That's exactly how I feel, too.

 

And I know it sounds funny, coming from someone who's daughter did super-early college, but please understand that wasn't our idea. That was something she wanted, somethine we supported because she was so determined to go. And even once she was there, we never pushed her to earn top grades, being happy, instead, that she had opportunities to sing with the college choir, be in shows, go on trips with friends, etc.

 

I always tell my kids they will be adults much longer than they will be children, and I've never liked the idea of infringing on their childhoods in pursuit of a goal I'm not sure actually matters all that much. I want them to have the educations that are right for them, not the ones that will impress other people. And I'm unwilling to make them miserable for four or more years of their teens in order to make them look good on paper.

[lisabees]

It's been a while since I have seen the film. If I recall correctly, the students were mainly from exclusive California schools who are not representative of the rest of of the nation. Kids from upper class, professional parents in Silicon Valley would likely have more expectations put upon them than kids in other parts of the country. Because this was so apparent to me, I saw this film for what it was. One person's frustration with the education system in his world. It certainly has elements that are true in many places, though!

 

Many, many kids are taking APs these days. Some because they live in Silicon Valley and feel immense pressure :D and some because they are self-motivated. The APs my son chose to take were ones in which he loved the subjects. Because he was capable and interested, they were his favorite classes ever. He wished all of his classes were like those - filled with like-minded kids and fabulous conversations. In our average, suburban school district, it's been years since we have seen a suicide. Thankfully. But - we live in a simple small town that cherishes tradition and community. In general, no one is trying to outdo each other.

 

Our district usually sends one kid to an Ivy a year. And it's never a surprise. It's that valedictorian with an interesting resume. A kid who truly wants to change the world in his/her way. Always, a kid any college would be thrilled to have. And, always, a kid we are thrilled too see go to an Ivy, because it was his dream.

 

My neighborhood is filled with upper middle class families. The majority went to state schools or regional private schools (think Scranton or Drexel). I don't know any adults who went to an Ivy school. But, if my kid wanted to go to one, I'd certainly let him try. Why wouldn't I? My oldest goes to a private liberal arts college. My second son, an athlete, wants a big state school with plenty of school spirit. Each kid has a different path. And other than keeping the price within a certain range, the choice will be theirs.

 

The college admission process is crazier than ever before. And it's like being a parent. Before you become one, you have clear visions of what you wiil be like. You will always be like this. You will never allow that. But, then reality hits. And things just aren't as black and white. The college process is like that. You swear you're not going to "play the game". You don't like the "snobbery" of private schools, so your kid will never go to one. Then, your kid has his own vision. He wants a certain major or a certain school and he needs APs and SAT Subject tests. Your kid is capable and determined. And that school is a private school whose merit aid will bring the price lower than the state school. So, the game begins. It's all okay. As long as you're knowledgable about the process and listen to your kid, things will work out. Maybe it'll be an Ivy, maybe it'll be that small state school an hour away. There are so many wonderful options.

 

We just can't have it both ways. We want our kids to have a rigorous 21st century education and yet we complain that they're taking too many APs. We want all kids to have a chance to attend college and succeed, but then we complain that our kids can't get in. Rather than talking about the stressed-out kids who attend exclusive schools and have tiger Moms, we should be talking about the insane cost of college these days! That may be having more of an effect on an adult's financial and emotional health than where he went to school!

[Mandy in TN]

Well, I took the time this morning to read the article linked by CW. (I guess I should have done more than base my original reply strictly on the posts on this forum.) I actually find the entire premise of both views linked disturbing. :tongue_smilie: Perhaps I live in my own bubble, but I cannot even remotely relate to viewing my children like any of the POV described by either side. .:confused:

 

I don't believe I can really articulate what I am thinking, but I would guess the word "detachment" would be the most appropriate. I do not feel "attached" to my young adult children's successes or failures. They are theirs based on their individual choices. Our entire goal is to provide a solid foundation and instill faith and virtue and hopefully assist them in becoming the "who" they want to be......but none of that is connected to worldly definitions of successes/failures. Tying up view of self to an external worldview of "success/failure" (or anything as insignificant as college admissions) is apparently the equivalent of speaking Venus vs. Mars........I cannot connect to it at all. (ETA: I guess it is why I love Augustine's quote that is in my sig. It is a thought does guide our life choices.)

 

Nor can I even begin to relate to an assumption that earning a solidly middle class income is relegated to an Ivy League education. Our familial experience (both my dh's and ds's education/employment) defies that contention.

 

Oh well, this conversation has been enlightening. I am starting to understand why I always sense that conversations w/ other mothers in our neighborhood actually me feeling like we are speaking in different languages.....I think we really are! :lol:

:iagree:Basically, I just don't understand the concept of creating long-term goals that dictate who a child is as if the child arrived as a blank slate on which the parent gets to write the outcome and where the parent receives his self worth and gauges his child's self worth based on the outcome of goals that ultimately say nothing about who that child is as a human being. Below is pasted from a previous post where of mine from here where we talked about long-term goals.

 

I want my child to be firm in his knowledge of appropriate conduct. I want him to learn the difference between what he wants to do right now and having a strong enough will to do what is appropriate/ right. He must also be taught to be careful not to rationalize something to be right simply because he wants it to be so. Along these lines, there can be no true happiness without first taking care of responsibilities. “…the chief responsibility which rests on them as persons is the acceptance or rejection of ideas. To help them in this choice we give them principles of conduct, and a wide range of the knowledge fitted to them.”

 

"I am, I can, I ought, I will." is the place from which I instruct, because we achieve through diligence not through intelligence or imagination. I use habit training as a road to success, because I want him to be a responsible, decent, moral person who possesses positive and productive physical and mental habits. I want him to learn to apply these habits to whatever he chooses to do in life whether that is a tinker, a tailor, a soldier, or a sailor.

 

I exercise habit training alongside the idea that “perhaps the business of teachers is to open as many doors as possible.” I respect that he is born whole and that his mind is naturally designed to learn. I can provide the nourishment of education for his mind to grow healthy through a learning lifestyle where he is trained to be disciplined not in subject matter but in life for "education is an atmosphere, a discipline, a life."

 

However, my child is not a blank slate, but is a whole person complete with his own personality and capacity for good and evil. Neither my self worth nor his hinges upon his going to college. I will for my part try to open doors and windows and widen chinks in the walls, but ultimately he will choose his own path. I hope that he chooses one that is fulfilling.

 

Mandy, with quotes from Charlotte Mason

 

 

[dereksurfs]

Does anyone know where I can see this docu? I can only "save" it on netflix.

 

The most successful people I know attended state schools, one of those is currently making 7 figures.

 

I attended ivy league and there were a number of suicide attempts, and successful suicides, each year. That may not be unique to ivy league but it's kind of crazy if you think about it. All these people vying to get in, and once they're there they are suffering so much they want to take their life. I remember one young man jumped out the window of the science building (about 8 floors up).

 

As far as the choice between menial service work and white collar jobs, I just want my kids to be at peace, in healthy relationships, and in non abusive work environments. I would hope my daughters have the option of being SAHMs if that's what they want. I'd also like them to be in helping professions, whether lofty or humble. I do constantly emphasize the importance of education but I'm not a tiger mom. I don't try to force anything. So it's an experiment in progress!

 

"The Color of Water" is a good book indirectly about this issue. A woman raises 12(? maybe more) kids on her own, in poverty, all went on to have professional degrees. Both her husbands died and the second one never lived with her.

 

Interesting perspective coming from an Ivy alum. I like that the director, Vicki, is meeting with all types of schools including Ivys such as Stanford as well as policy makers. This is an important dialogue to have, one which I think even the top rated schools are becoming more aware of. While everyone might not agree with all the film's points, I think we are all aware of the need to change many of the broken patterns which exist within our current system - teaching to the test, an over emphasis upon it, focus on rote memory, etc...

 

As far as where to watch it, there are quite a few screenings throughout the nation. Here is a list by state. http://www.racetonowhere.com/screenings

 

The closest one to us is coming up next month in San Jose. I may take the whole family to watch it. Although I'm not sure since it is rated PG-13.

 

You can also order it for community events here: http://www.racetonowhere.com/store

 

It looks like they will eventually release it for home viewing, but not yet.

Edited September 22, 2012 by dereksurfs

[regentrude]

Nor can I even begin to relate to an assumption that earning a solidly middle class income is relegated to an Ivy League education. Our familial experience (both my dh's and ds's education/employment) defies that contention.

 

You don't even need anecdotal evidence - one can just look at the numbers to see that the few people who get admitted to Ivies can't possibly make up the bulk of the educated middle class.

[Haiku]

This helps understand your perspective based on your immediate family and how things seemed to work out. Many of us have observed this not to be the case in the majority of work environments we are in nor for our friends or families. That said I certainly don't think an Ivy school is a bad thing per se, even if somewhat overrated depending on the field of study.

 

:iagree:

 

I went to a state school and have a BA in social work. My sister (who also went to the same state school) graduated from an Ivy with a PhD in immunology. I work in a beer/homebrew store and she works for GSK.

 

Guess which one of us makes more money? ;)

 

But my point is, I don't want to be a research immunologist. And she doesn't want to be a craft homebrewer. I don't want to work and have my kids in school. She doesn't want to stay home and homeschool. Going to an Ivy and getting a PhD didn't interest me.

 

And that's ok!

 

We are both doing what we wanted to do. Sure, they have more money. Good for them. (And I mean that sincerely.) I'm happy with my life, and that's what matters to me.

 

My husband went to a private Catholic university. He makes a decent living doing what he wanted to do. He didn't need a fancy school to get the degree he has ... and it makes no sense to say go to a fancy, expensive school and get a) the same degree you can get for less elsewhere in an industry that doesn't really care about fancy degrees or b) get a degree that will earn you big bucks even if it's not what you want to do.

 

My other sister went to a state school, got a degree in gerontology, hated working in nursing homes, and now grooms dogs. I majored (as I said) in social work, and my favorite post-college job was editor at a textbook development company. Go figure.

 

Tara

[Trish]

Here is *the* thread where 8 pontificates on interest led education :)

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showthread.php?t=173293&highlight=tea

 

Thanks to you, and also to 8Fill for the nutshell introduction!

 

:D

[Crimson Wife]

It makes no sense to say go to a fancy, expensive school and get a) the same degree you can get for less elsewhere in an industry that doesn't really care about fancy degrees or

 

It's actually cheaper for many middle-class students to attend Harvard than Cal State.

 

"If you are the child of a middle class family in California, it is probably cheaper for you to attend college at Harvard than at a nearby public university.

 

You read correctly. Cheaper.

 

The Bay Area News Group recently crunched th numbers using a family of four making $130,000 a year. Between tuition, room, board, and other expenses, that family would pay $24,000 a year to send one of their kids to school at a California State University campus. Although the sticker price on Harvard's tuition is a dizzying $36,000, the university's generous student aid would make it a significantly cheaper option.

 

How much cheaper? The final price of attendance would be about $17,000."

 

Full article is here: "Why It's Cheaper to Go to Harvard than a California State School".

 

I seriously don't understand the animosity certain people have towards the Ivies. Frankly, it smacks a bit of class warfare (even though the Ivies go out of their way to provide very generous financial aid for students from low-to-moderate income families).

[Jenny in Florida]

I seriously don't understand the animosity certain people have towards the Ivies. Frankly, it smacks a bit of class warfare (even though the Ivies go out of their way to provide very generous financial aid for students from low-to-moderate income families).

 

I wouldn't say I have "animosity." In fact, when I started this homeschooling thing, I kind of assumed my kids would be shooting for that kind of school.

 

A few things have influenced my feelings about it, though. First, it became clear to me that I cared more about making sure my kids had time and space during their teen years to explore interests and be involved in the community and in activities they love than to pressure them into building the kind of resumes that would make them candidates for an Ivy League school. Of course, if one of mine had really wanted that, had decided on his or her own that it was a goal worth pursuing, I would have been all about supporting it. But neither of mine has had that desire.

 

Also, I have read a number of studies indicating that students at highly competitive, highly presigious colleges tend to be less satisfied with their academic experiences than students at other schools. Part of the problem appears to be that professors at many of the Ivies spend more time pursuing their own research and publishing their work -- in order to justify positions at that kind of school -- than actually teaching classes. Many students have more contact with TAs than the putative instructor of a course.

 

I've also read that competition for grades at those schools is so intense that, for some students, it takes the joy out of learning.

 

So, of course, if I had a kid who cared and really, desperately wanted to go that direction, we'd give it our very best shot. But, for us, it isn't high on the priority list, and not worth the stress and sacrifices we'd have to make to get there.

[Roadrunner]

While I don't think Ivy eduation is a must for a middle class life and a good career, it is a must if you want to work for certain companies especially in cities like New York and SF. Some of those companies won't recruit outside of top 10 MBAs.

I also think it matters mostly for non STEM majors.

 

As for the movie

My sons piano teacher was telling us just last week how her students (mostly from private prep schools) are sleeping 4-5 hours a night to cram in everything. She said the only healthy looking kids are homeschooled ones.

I also think this is a problem mostly at elite private and public schools. I never understood why a child needs to take 1 year worth of college in order to gain admission to college. We would be better served having rigorous high school standards and allowing kids some breathing room. Extra time is when kids can explore their interest, persue more deeply their passions, participate in science competitons...

 

 

Having said all that I would be very pleased if either of my kids nds up having the dedication to pursue degrees at top liberal arts colleges like Williams (not an Ivy, but). The key -desire has to be theirs, not mine.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Roadrunner

[8filltheheart]

 

I seriously don't understand the animosity certain people have towards the Ivies. Frankly, it smacks a bit of class warfare (even though the Ivies go out of their way to provide very generous financial aid for students from low-to-moderate income families).

 

:confused: I don't see the responses as being anti-Ivy. My ds is planning on applying to a couple of very top schools, so if you are taking that from my posts, you are mis-reading.

 

I see the posts as stating that it does not require an Ivy education to have a successful middle class career. (Regentrude's post was the most pertinent in that regard! :001_smile: )

 

As far as the Ivies being generous w/financial aid, it is all relative. If they are meeting need, that means that the estimated family contribution must be met by family and then they provide assistance for the difference. Middle class family EFC is not necessarily a small #. Even having 7 dependent children, our EFC is way out of our ability to pay. Some top schools provide merit aid, some only need-based aid. All the schools that only meet demonstrated need are immediately eliminated from our list b/c the debt accrued for 4 yrs worth of education could be approaching 6 figures. For an undergrad education, yes, that sort of debt is not what we view as prudent. (especially if those same schools do not give credit toward required # of credit hrs for graduation for APs or dual-enrolled courses. So, for example, our ds has 16 hrs of AP credit, will have 18 hrs for classes this school yr, and 20+ for next yr. That is 54+ credit hrs that state schools will typically accept and give him 2nd semester sophomore standing vs. a 1st semester freshman at schools that restrict those hrs toward course placement vs. actual credit. Those extra semesters will have to be paid for.)

 

There are many, many factors that go into school selection and then there is acceptance and financial packages on top of that. Most students that are in the ballpark of being accepted at top schools do not restrict themselves to applying to only them. They may apply to "reach," "top-choice," middle, and "safety" schools and then make a final decision based on the full financial picture. Sometimes the top school is the best offer, sometimes it's not. Unless you have a crystal ball or an "in" on the admission process, I don't think it is something that students can predict the outcome. (wish we could,b/c it would save a lot of angst!)

 

To simply state "Ivy" is what I see most people disagreeing w/ b/c it is not a simple given reality for the vast majority of students, regardless of their transcript.

Edited September 23, 2012 by 8FillTheHeart

[Arcadia]

While I don't think Ivy eduation is a must for a middle class life and a good career, it is a must if you want to work for certain companies especially in cities like New York and SF. Some of those companies won't recruit outside of top 10 MBAs.

I also think it matters mostly for non STEM majors. .

 

The well established STEM companies around me are interviewing fresh graduates only if they are from the internationally renown engineering schools. It is a sharks tank here with companies still flooded with resumes. Retrenchment is still going on in the tech industry. So STEM majors are just as badly affected here.

 

It was cheaper for a friend's child to attend Stanford than UCB because Stanford has a higher threshold for family income to qualify for aid (She got accepted to both). They are too rich for UCB but poor enough for Stanford :glare: Also with California's political bickering over budget, the UC and CSU systems being state universities are at mercy of the ever decreasing and uncertain budget. It would be safer to go to a good private university and be able to finish the college education than be drag into a prolong education because the universities cannot offer the course you need to graduate every semester.

[8filltheheart]

The well established STEM companies around me are interviewing fresh graduates only if they are from the internationally renown engineering schools. It is a sharks tank here with companies still flooded with resumes. Retrenchment is still going on in the tech industry. So STEM majors are just as badly affected here.

 

I think the Silicon Valley "here" is probably the pertinent qualifier. What is going on in CA (especially w/their budget cuts to state unis and how students may be accepted into the system but placed into a school that they do not want to attend) is not representative of what is occurring across the rest of the country. CA students can attend other states as out-of-state students at a cheaper rate than in-state CA.

[Alte Veste Academy]

You don't even need anecdotal evidence - one can just look at the numbers to see that the few people who get admitted to Ivies can't possibly make up the bulk of the educated middle class.

 

:iagree: Frankly, I'm :confused: by some of the views in this thread. I certainly don't think that disputing the need for a diploma from an Ivy is tantamount to animosity either.

 

I guess it's like the story of the blind men and the elephant. Depending on perspective, everyone is right. :tongue_smilie: The majority of my friends have degrees from average colleges (both public and private) and are quite solidly in the middle to upper-middle class.

[Roadrunner]

The well established STEM companies around me are interviewing fresh graduates only if they are from the internationally renown engineering schools. It is a sharks tank here with companies still flooded with resumes. Retrenchment is still going on in the tech industry. So STEM majors are just as badly affected here.

 

It was cheaper for a friend's child to attend Stanford than UCB because Stanford has a higher threshold for family income to qualify for aid (She got accepted to both). They are too rich for UCB but poor enough for Stanford :glare: Also with California's political bickering over budget, the UC and CSU systems being state universities are at mercy of the ever decreasing and uncertain budget. It would be safer to go to a good private university and be able to finish the college education than be drag into a prolong education because the universities cannot offer the course you need to graduate every semester.

 

Sigh, that's home for us as well. I thought engineering degrees from calpoly and UCSD were still respected.

[Haiku]

 

I seriously don't understand the animosity certain people have towards the Ivies. Frankly, it smacks a bit of class warfare

 

I have no animosity toward Ivies. I think it's cool my sister went to one, and I'm proud of her. But I feel like you keep implying that those who don't attend top schools are doomed, and that does not reflect my experience at all. I actually feel like you comments are far more class-based than those of us arguing opposing viewponts.

 

Tara

[Alte Veste Academy]

I personally believe the issue is one of relative contentment. If a person believes that he/she must take the most challenging classes to end up with the most impressive transcript to get into the most elite college to earn the most money and prestige to afford the most gorgeous house and private schools for the kids to start the cycle all over again... If you simply must work for the most successful company in the valley in CA or ______, where your tiny house is going to cost more than quadruple what a genuine mansion would cost in _____ or in Texas (where you can have a very nice upper-class life working for a good company with just a piddly ol' state college degree :tongue_smilie:)...

 

I think it's vaguely amusing actually, to see this view espoused on our homeschool forum, this kind of linear thinking about success, because it seems to me nothing more than the stereotypical view from a sleep-deprived, overworked, and underinspired high-schooler smack in the middle of playing the game, buried in piles of applications, study guides, and overfull day planners. :001_huh:

 

ETA: I also wanted to say that the "brain dump" does bother me a great deal. I think it is despicable, quite frankly, that educators are well aware that they are doing a disservice to kids and yet they perpetuate this kind of "learning." Despicable, really. Anti-education. The opposite of what good, responsible teachers ought to demand from and bring out in students.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Alte Veste Academy

[regentrude]

I seriously don't understand the animosity certain people have towards the Ivies. Frankly, it smacks a bit of class warfare (even though the Ivies go out of their way to provide very generous financial aid for students from low-to-moderate income families).

 

I don't have any animosity. In fact, I have one kid who is definitely Ivy material and will apply - BUT I do not want her to narrowly focus on this very elusive goal and think that not getting in is the end of the world, because it is not, or that not getting in is in any way a reflection on her as a person and on her achievement.

All people here are saying is that the claim that an Ivy education is the only way to a solid middle class life is false, and that perpetuating this myth is harmful because it puts unwarranted pressure on parents and students.

[Arcadia]

We have not watched "Race to nowhere". However we grew up in Asia's rat race and still had plenty of time to play while carrying a full load of coursework.

 

For our kids, we believe we are "competing" in a world market and as long as they get to go to a good university anywhere in the world with respect to their chosen discipline, we are fine with it. However we grew up in a culture where graduate kids still stay with their parents until they are married. So there is less stress on our kids to be able to get a job post-graduation. We were also lucky that both of us graduated with no student debt so our experience is certainly not typical of families here. My parents paid for my education all the way to postgrad, hubby was on scholarship all the way.

 

ETA: California's cost of living is actually lower than back home in our case. A Toyota corolla would have cost us more than $40k and a condominium would cost over $550psf.

 

Sigh, that's home for us as well. I thought engineering degrees from calpoly and UCSD were still respected.

 

CalPoly has a very good reputation. I am not familiar with UCSD so I can't comment. The universities favored by those screening the resumes also depends on the discipline of engineering.

 

Hubby is in the pretty niche semiconductor R&D. As a fresh graduate in electrical engineering, he was working in defense in R&D and purchasing. I was in visualization for the defense industry. It can be so niche in our case that employers are recruiting through the lecturers.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Arcadia in CA

[lewelma]

Part of the problem appears to be that professors at many of the Ivies spend more time pursuing their own research and publishing their work -- in order to justify positions at that kind of school -- than actually teaching classes. Many students have more contact with TAs than the putative instructor of a course.

 

I attended at top-10 university in the US, and this was definitely my experience.

 

Ruth in NZ

[dereksurfs]

...

CalPoly has a very good reputation. I am not familiar with UCSD so I can't comment. The universities favored by those screening the resumes also depends on the discipline of engineering.

 

Hubby is in the pretty niche semiconductor R&D. As a fresh graduate in electrical engineering, he was working in defense in R&D and purchasing. I was in visualization for the defense industry. It can be so niche in our case that employers are recruiting through the lecturers.

 

I also work for a large defense contractor which does semiconductor work among many other things. A much greater percentage of our engineering workforce is not as niche as you are describing. Don't get me wrong, I have worked alongside PhDs in EE from Ivys. However that degree was not required for their position. In fact in the majority of cases they work in the same group with guys/gals from state schools and a larger variety of other colleges and universities. I'm not discounted your niche experiences you've described, but rather placing it within context of the whole. I have worked in the Bay Area, Los Angeles and Colorado. In every market we recruit and hire engineers from a full spectrum of colleges and universities. In fact we have recruited directly through a consortium program established with a local state university. That is why I do not see this as an Ivy or nothing proposition, especially in relation to STEM careers. Are there niche fields with smaller groups doing selective hiring only from certain universities, most likely their own? Yes, of course. But do the vast majority of high tech jobs require this? No, absolutely not. There are simply too many positions to fill to be so narrowly focused in one's hiring practices. Quite frankly there are too many highly skilled professionals from other schools to discount them in lieu of an Ivy like pedigree. One's real world experiences are of far greater value to our engineering teams.

Edited September 23, 2012 by dereksurfs

[Arcadia]

I'm not discounted your niche experiences you've described, but rather placing it within context of the whole. I have worked in the Bay Area, LA market and Colorado.

 

I was replying to Roadrunner and was just elaborating on how landing a job interview as a engineer could depend on how niche the field of engineering her child might be interested in. I am in no way stating my experience as the norm in the states.

 

We were employed by the ministry of defense (equivalent of DOD) back home so it is terribly niche unfortunately. Now hubby is in the private sector here.

[Hunter]

Even though I am no longer a Christian, and witchcraft flows through my family tree as deeply as Christianity, I definitely somehow developed a Hebrew worldview rather than a Greek one.

 

This is a quick chart that does NOT do justice to the topic. If anyone want to debate "Hebrew vs Greek", they should quote OTHER sources!

 

My youngest son did do a radically Latin/Greek centered education for awhile right after we left the Mennonite church, but before and after that my teaching style has always been quite Hebrew influenced, even while dabbling in my grandmother's ways.

 

The AP route just never stressed me out much except for AP calculus. I got too sick to finish helping my son with that though. AP Environmental Science is my favorite 11th and 12 grade science option for SOME families :D but hardcore APers don't even count it as an AP.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Hunter

[2squared]

Nearly all of my relatives are graduates of prestigious colleges (mix of private & public) and most have graduate/professional degrees from elite universities (again a mix of private & public). The only two who don't are the only two who are struggling financially.

 

I expect that "struggling financially" can look vastly different from family to family. You probably would consider us "struggling" when in reality we are very comfortable. We don't drive fancy cars or live in a big house, but we have solid retirement and emergency savings and a decent income.

[justamouse]

I have nothing against Ivies, I would love my kid to get into one, but I refuse to break them to get them there. And, I refuse to put my family in financial straights to put them there. So, they are pretty much off the table unless someone gets a free or almost free ride. ;)

 

Might some of them? Sure, they're doing very well, will I try? Perhaps. We'll see when the time comes.

[justamouse]

I expect that "struggling financially" can look vastly different from family to family. You probably would consider us "struggling" when in reality we are very comfortable. We don't drive fancy cars or live in a big house, but we have solid retirement and emergency savings and a decent income.

 

I don't know if you lurk a lot and that's why you don't have a lot of posts, or you're new and thus just don't know, but I can assure you that Crimson knows what financial straights is.

[Hunter]

I have nothing against Ivies, I would love my kid to get into one, but I refuse to break them to get them there. And, I refuse to put my family in financial straights to put them there....

 

:iagree:

 

But, now in hindsight, I'm not sure I would have loved for either of my son's to have gotten into an Ivy :-0 Even though it WAS a goal for my youngest son for awhile. And as for my current students and friends who are looking at colleges, an Ivy isn't always the best option. I had a friend decline multiple selective colleges who were recruiting her as a transfer, for a small women's college that was very nurturing for her, and just what she needed at the time.

 

Students are not brains suspended on soulless expendable bodies. All worldwiews that I know of recognize "mind, body and spirit". An Ivy isn't always best for ALL bodies and spirits :-0 Just because you can, doesn't ALWAYS mean you should, and maybe it's my Hebrew worldview sticking out again, but I don't think the needs of the mind are greater than the body and spirit. I think they are equal.

 

I also don't think teachers/parents are less important than students/children. I don't think parents are required to engage in self-neglect to attempt to get their child get into an Ivy. On the other hand I am sickened by parents who neglect or sabotage a child's educational opportunities.

 

I live in a city with a lot of colleges here. The students are all perky and sprite right now. By February and March, many of them are mentally and physically ill. Some of them have haunted expressions like what we see on films of people about to die. It's painful to walk among them. They are cold. They are hungry. They are exhausted. They are lonely. They are desperate to stick it out, because they are terrified of doing anything else.

[SunnyDays]

I don't know if you lurk a lot and that's why you don't have a lot of posts, or you're new and thus just don't know, but I can assure you that Crimson knows what financial straights is.

 

 

:confused: I'm not sure I'd count her 1700 posts as a lurker. What's that make me? :)

 

 

I do think much of this (as Alte Veste alluded to) relates to your environment and location. I'm a midwest girl, born and raised. It varies a bit from small towns to larger cities to affluent suburbs, but while competition certainly exists here, you don't run into much "Ivy or bust" mentality. There are a handful, of course, who shoot for that, but most people view a good merit scholarship to a small, well regarded regional school as a great success.

 

I went to a small LAC and my husband to a large state university that's regarded as a STEM school. He's quite successful in his career, and I was on a definite path of success before I left the corporate world. And I don't really know a lot of people who left home for "name brand" universities... sure, there are some. But I don't see that swaying most recruiters in the area as much as one would think.

 

There's no animosity toward the Ivies in our house. If my son wants to attend one and can put together a package that pays for it, then that's terrific. But it isn't anything we're going to encourage. We'd rather have him living a well balanced life and pursuing his interests, and selfishly, I'd rather have him stay around here. ;)

[Roadrunner]

 

CalPoly has a very good reputation. I am not familiar with UCSD so I can't comment. The universities favored by those screening the resumes also depends on the discipline of engineering.

 

Hubby is in the pretty niche semiconductor R&D. As a fresh graduate in electrical engineering, he was working in defense in R&D and purchasing. I was in visualization for the defense industry. It can be so niche in our case that employers are recruiting through the lecturers.

 

 

That's what i was trying to say. Calpoly is a state school. I think if you have an engineering degree from a public U, you will be just fine. I do think it matters great deal if you have a political science degree from Princeton or San Jose State U.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I'm not discounted your niche experiences you've described, but rather placing it within context of the whole.

 

...

 

Are there niche fields with smaller groups doing selective hiring only from certain universities, most likely their own? Yes, of course. But do the vast majority of high tech jobs require this? No, absolutely not. There are simply too many positions to fill to be so narrowly focused in one's hiring practices. Quite frankly there are too many highly skilled professionals from other schools to discount them in lieu of an Ivy like pedigree. One's real world experiences are of far greater value to our engineering teams.

 

:iagree: There are many different niches, way too many to be filled only by Ivy grads. And, frankly, Ivy grads aren't necessarily qualified for many positions just by virtue of their degree and school.

 

My father is an extremely successful defense contractor, with a degree from a no-name university that he got just so he could have a degree to satisfy hiring requirements. He has not been out of a job as a defense contractor since he retired from the active duty Army in 1987 because of his extremely specialized knowledge. He makes very good money, though his degree is not in an engineering or a computer field (or whatever else the hot degrees are these days :tongue_smilie:). I actually think his degree is in Russian history :001_huh:, but it just flat out doesn't matter because of the 20 years of hands-on experience he had/has in his line of work. In all honesty, he frequently rails against the people who are hired by his company who are, in his words, all brains and no common sense. :lol: