What's your spin on this?

[Remudamom]

One of my dds is a very talented artist. She is also extremely lazy, and will do only what needs to be done to get by. This is a pattern with everything she does. Piano, horses, chores and art.

 

We have told her that we feel she needs to learn some art basics, the grammar of her talent. I have been asking her to do a sketch of something simple everyday this week. She slaps something on paper and barely restrains herself from tossing it at me. (She may be lazy but she ain't stupid.)

 

I'm sure y'all can imagine what my reaction to her attitude is. Problem is, she's just as bull headed as I am. So tonight, when I handed her a new sketching pad, and saw the attitude coming on, I calmly told her that her dad and I felt she needed to develop certain areas with her drawing, and that if she wanted to pout about her art assignments she could live in her room until she was 20.

 

She feels we squash all her sponteneity (sp??) by having her draw. She got this idea from a SpongeBob episode, btw. We have very dramatic "I can't draw unless I feeeeel like it." We went through the same crap with piano for a while.... "I neeeed to play by ear, I can't read notes." She plays beautifully, and not nearly as well by ear as she thinks she does.

 

Anyhow, how does one know when to ease back and when to push? It's summer, sketching is easy, she's pouting. If she were in PS she'd be taking art and loving it. I know part of this is just a me/her thing.

 

I'm trying to change the dynamics of how I relate to her, just letting her know I love her but there are things we have to do sometimes. I had dad let her know he's on the same page as I am, he can do no wrong in her eyes.

 

Scuse me, I'm going somewhere she can't see me and scream into a pillow.

[Ottakee]

Are art lessons a possibility? She might take direction from someone else a lot better in this area. I know that with riding, my girls are MUCH more likely to listen to Miss Jen than they are to mom.

 

The attitude is familiar but is not one to be allowed to continue. When you figure that one out, let me know.

[Mrs Mungo]

Can you find her an art teacher? I know it's easier said than done but I imagine the teacher would be better able to play toward her vanity. If you can't (for whatever reason) then how about giving her projects? Get those post-card sized watercolor sketch pads and have her draw a sketch, color it with some watercolors and send it to her grandma or other elderly relative. Call it art and community service. ;)

[Remudamom]

To answer you both, she had a conniption fit when I suggested art lessons. Controlled meltdown. Just as well, I don't know where/how/when/who we could find for that out here.

[Gretchen in NJ]

This is an excellent thread. I hope someone here has the answer, since you just describe my dd10 and me.

[Remudamom]

This is an excellent thread. I hope someone here has the answer, since you just describe my dd10 and me.

 

Bless your heart, do you have one too? I know most of it's between me and her. She takes instruction from her dad better.

 

I get a kick out of her horse thing. "But I don't feeeeel like riding him today" Problem is, the only time she feeeeeeeels like it is when she has company.

So I tell her we must train the pony, and I'm too big for him, so I need her to either break him for herself or so I can sell him............we go round and round.:banghead:

 

I should say we used to go round and round. Now I just state what's going to happen and walk away. I do tell her she can appeal to her dad. After she did once, and he looked at her like she was nuts she knows that won't work anymore.

[Bess]

One of my dds is a very talented artist. She is also extremely lazy, and will do only what needs to be done to get by. This is a pattern with everything she does. Piano, horses, chores and art.

 

We have told her that we feel she needs to learn some art basics, the grammar of her talent. I have been asking her to do a sketch of something simple everyday this week. She slaps something on paper and barely restrains herself from tossing it at me. (She may be lazy but she ain't stupid.)

 

I'm sure y'all can imagine what my reaction to her attitude is. Problem is, she's just as bull headed as I am. So tonight, when I handed her a new sketching pad, and saw the attitude coming on, I calmly told her that her dad and I felt she needed to develop certain areas with her drawing, and that if she wanted to pout about her art assignments she could live in her room until she was 20.

 

She feels we squash all her sponteneity (sp??) by having her draw. She got this idea from a SpongeBob episode, btw. We have very dramatic "I can't draw unless I feeeeel like it." We went through the same crap with piano for a while.... "I neeeed to play by ear, I can't read notes." She plays beautifully, and not nearly as well by ear as she thinks she does.

 

Anyhow, how does one know when to ease back and when to push? It's summer, sketching is easy, she's pouting. If she were in PS she'd be taking art and loving it. I know part of this is just a me/her thing.

 

I'm trying to change the dynamics of how I relate to her, just letting her know I love her but there are things we have to do sometimes. I had dad let her know he's on the same page as I am, he can do no wrong in her eyes.

 

Scuse me, I'm going somewhere she can't see me and scream into a pillow.

 

Wow, I sound just like your daughter! I was always very artistic, but self-taught... and same with music. I was also quite lazy! If I could go back, I *wish* I learned more and utilized more than just natural talent. It's not like learning to be disciplined in art or music will set the talent back! It can only enhance. Can you find some really good *true* art classes for her to take? Also, piano classes? I would definitely make her take them whether she wants to or not, as she'll thank you later! It sounds like you instructing her in these areas isn't working? Perhaps it might work better with someone else. Just a thought.

[Stacia]

Could you get her a drawing book of some sort to go along w/ having her sketch? That way, she'd have direction (not necessarily just the vague instruction to sketch something) & instructions coming from elsewhere (book, not you).

 

And, to maybe get her to warm to the idea, could you go w/ 2 books -- maybe one that is fun (manga or cartoon style dwg -- or anything that could be fun, a little out of the ordinary, ...), and one that is more focused on developing specific art/drawing talents? Alternate assignments weekly between the books.

 

At age 10, hormones may be starting to play a part in all the dramatics too. No advice there, though...

 

Don't know if any of those ideas would work, but they may be worth a try.

[Remudamom]

Wow, I sound just like your daughter! I was always very artistic, but self-taught... and same with music. I was also quite lazy! If I could go back, I *wish* I learned more and utilized more than just natural talent. It's not like learning to be disciplined in art or music will set the talent back! It can only enhance. Can you find some really good *true* art classes for her to take? Also, piano classes? I would definitely make her take them whether she wants to or not, as she'll thank you later! It sounds like you instructing her in these areas isn't working? Perhaps it might work better with someone else. Just a thought.

 

No art lessons around here, but she's been taking piano for six years, and plays beautifully.

[Mom2legomaniacs]

Next time she asks you to do something for her, can you just not feeeeeel like doing it? I did that to ds today. He immediately said turn about is fair play, I guess, huh, mom. I made my point.

[Remudamom]

Next time she asks you to do something for her, can you just not feeeeeel like doing it? I did that to ds today. He immediately said turn about is fair play, I guess, huh, mom. I made my point.

 

Hmm, I'll start looking for opportunities immediately.

[percytruffle]

Well, she sounds like my dd when she was that age. She is very open ended and creative, in her own way and her own style. I can understand that and just let her be. When and if she wanted instruction in anything she would ask for it, or look at what others were doing online, or look in a book, etc. I never pushed her. When you have a passion and you are the kind of personality you have described it is very easy to feel "squashed" by structure. I would draw and paint and create all day as a child if left to do it, but if my parents had somehow interfered with the process it would have died a quick death. Art is a very personal thing and it sounds as though she wants to keep it "her" thing exclusively for now. There is nothing wrong with that. There are many talented artists out there who were self-taught.

 

I know you see this as a pattern and that pattern as a problem, but some people are just wired that way. Like I said, my dd was the "lazy" type as well. She is finding her own way and making her own goals without me having to "push" her. My mom actually used to call me lazy to my face when I was a kid. I was a day dreamer. She was the type who was on top of everything, schedule oriented, etc. We couldn't have been farther apart personality wise. She damaged our relationship irreparably. Let you daughter be who she is. Encourage and love, yes. Prod and expect, no. Look at the long goals.

[Gretchen in NJ]

Bless your heart, do you have one too? I know most of it's between me and her. She takes instruction from her dad better.

 

I get a kick out of her horse thing. "But I don't feeeeel like riding him today" Problem is, the only time she feeeeeeeels like it is when she has company.

So I tell her we must train the pony, and I'm too big for him, so I need her to either break him for herself or so I can sell him............we go round and round.:banghead:

 

I should say we used to go round and round. Now I just state what's going to happen and walk away. I do tell her she can appeal to her dad. After she did once, and he looked at her like she was nuts she knows that won't work anymore.

 

I found that sometimes talking about why she has a mom helps.

 

We used to have mother/daughter dates. That was working, but then the other dd wanted one too. Then dd10 found it to be no big deal.

[Ottakee]

My 11 year old doesn't have the energy or desire to ride her horse UNTIL..........12dd gets the horse, brushes the horse, tacks up the horse and walks to the mounting block...............then suddenly she has enough energy to ride and wants to ride FIRST:glare:

 

It is so hard to get through to them that they must do the work daily if they are going to ride. None of this, hop on when they feel like it and ride and leave the chores to someone else.

 

Glad to hear that dh backs you up. That will go a long ways.

 

Still waiting on more ideas to motivate children.

[Remudamom]

Could you get her a drawing book of some sort to go along w/ having her sketch? That way, she'd have direction (not necessarily just the vague instruction to sketch something) & instructions coming from elsewhere (book, not you).

 

And, to maybe get her to warm to the idea, could you go w/ 2 books -- maybe one that is fun (manga or cartoon style dwg -- or anything that could be fun, a little out of the ordinary, ...), and one that is more focused on developing specific art/drawing talents? Alternate assignments weekly between the books.

 

At age 10, hormones may be starting to play a part in all the dramatics too. No advice there, though...

 

Don't know if any of those ideas would work, but they may be worth a try.

 

She's got art books coming out of her ears. Turns her nose up at them. And she's 14. I just say "this is the way it will be, sorry you don't like it, pass the bean dip."

[LauraGB]

Depending on her age, I might think it has to do w/her pushing for her own independance. My ds is scary-smart when it comes to playing chess. Scary-smart. All of a sudden, out of nowhere, he doesn't want to play at all anymore. Dh had some troubles with this, to say the least. But it seemed the more dh or I suggested he practice or read tactics, the more he refused. So, I told dh to let it go, and I let it go. For about 6 months or so, ds wouldn't even look at a board. Then I started to discuss how some of the other kids at the tournaments were doing and how they were pushing ds out of his "place" - but I didn't discuss it w/ds, I discussed it w/dh - in front of ds. Seeing his reaction, I started planting opportunities for him to play, or anything to peak his curiosity or enthusiasm (or whatever it is that drives him - I don't really quite *get* him yet) without seeming to be doing this. Then, one morning, I caught him playing chess online. When he saw me, he tried to say he wasn't really playing, he was just messing around. I noticed him doing it more and more, but on the sly. The tactics books are out and on his floor and I think HE thinks he's making his own decision. Which, I guess, he is.

 

So, perhaps, you, in your wise motherly way, can entice her to want to without asking her to. If she's got a talent and a love for art, she'll not be able to help herself. She might be just pushing it down to rebel.

 

hth

[Remudamom]

Depending on her age, I might think it has to do w/her pushing for her own independance.

 

She might be just pushing it down to rebel.

 

hth

 

I think this is exactly what she's doing, but still, I don't want to drive a wedge between us, there's already some distance. (I hear you Percy.)

 

Another reason this bothers me is that she was resistent to piano too, but now plays beautifully and practices without a word from me. Who knows where the art could go, that's her real talent.

[HSMom2One]

I am self-taught at the piano because I wanted to learn so badly when my parents could not afford lessons that I saved my own money to buy sheet music. I would buy something that was challenging and would go through it measure by measure until I could play the whole song. Then I would go buy another piece of music, a bit more challenging than the last and so on. The point is that I wanted to play. No one made me do it. I remember my parents standing in the background in awe at my passion to learn. They were encouraging, but they never pushed me at all. I knew they were very interested and proud, but I also knew that they were leaving it up to me.

 

As an adult I realized a great dream by putting myself through art school. I studied hard for four years, year round, until I graduated and got my Bachelor of Fine Arts Degree. One very valuable lesson I learned (while I was there on my own dime, not my parents') was that I had to grow out of the notion that I had to "feel like it" in order to be creative. I remember slow starts to studio classes when I had no other choice but to push through the fog and produce art work. I realized how much I was paying for those classes and that the time with my professors and fellow students would not be available for ever. Through this experience I learned that I could push through my emotions and work at my craft. Whether I'm making art today or standing in front of students teaching, I hold on to that valuable lesson. Again, it was a lesson I had to learn on my own with no one guiding me.

 

Art IS a very personal thing. It should be gently nurtured and encouraged, but not forced. From my own experience and those of others I've met along through the years I think that the very best artists are the ones that were driven by their own passion rather than someone else's.

 

I hope that you will keep encouraging your dd to draw and even buy art supplies for her when she needs them, but please don't force the issue or she may shut down and stop all together.

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

[Jugglin'5]

She's got art books coming out of her ears. Turns her nose up at them. And she's 14. I just say "this is the way it will be, sorry you don't like it, pass the bean dip."

 

Remudamom - cue the Twilight Zone music - I also have an artistic 14 yr old daughter with art books coming out her ears, and who doesn't want to draw anything for me. She's even won some art contests. I have tried before to get her to work through some of her art books step by step, but I sadly admit that my follow through has been lacking. She did take an art class a few years ago, but I probably need to suck it up and get her in one again. Otherwise it is just fits and starts.

[Mom to Aly]

My dd gets into things, wants to learn them, I get the curricula, then she is suddenly not as interested. I used to do this, harangue her to try it, then she would get turned off of it, and I'd put it away until she wanted to try it again.

 

I solved that. I now tell her she does her lessons, or the first 10 no's out of 16 chances and it is sold and we go on to something else. She almost always says yes (this is for extra curricular things--not serious studies), but, in the instances where she truly doesn't feel like it, she has the option of saying no, and she saves those for those days. So far it has worked wonderfully, and if there is something she really doesn't like, I find out early, and we move on. The main thing is she controls it, and she knows it, which completely changes the ball game, and makes her feel much, much better about it all.

[nakitty]

I haven't read the responses...so I'm just going to give my assessment as I see it....LOL She sounds a lot like me...I've always been rather artistic...it is something I enjoy doing but ONLY when I feel inspired. I took art in HS and in college and I gotta tell you...assignments are absolutely stifling! It can be something I have done a million times...even something I *love* to do....but as soon as someone tells me to do it...I clam up. Is it me being stubborn? Perhaps...I have been accused of that from time to time. But it wasn't intentional. I will try to relate it to something I think will really speak to you. I know you have horses and that you most likely LOVE riding your horses (I mean, who wouldn't? LOL) but I am sure that there are days that you simply do not want to ride...because you are sick or injured or whatever....but for some reason (use your imagination...LOL) you are made to ride your horse anyhow...are you likely to get the same joy from doing it? The same exhileration...the same sense of satisfaction....or whatever it is that you experience when riding that brings you happiness....you may do what you have to do...but you aren't going to do your best...and you are not going to be happy about it. Does that make sense? Seriously, the BEST thing you can do is to back off. Leave her art personal. Do not critique it unless asked...and then give your honest opinion of the piece but no more no less. Her talent will develope at her own pace...she may delve into head first for awhile...and then not touch it for awhile...then delve again when the inspiration hits. But if she associates it with "work" she will only come to resent it and it WILL crush her artistic spirit. So, that is my opinion....I would go head to head with her on things like math or history or other academic studies...but not art. :thumbup1:

[Remudamom]

I haven't read the responses...so I'm just going to give my assessment as I see it....LOL She sounds a lot like me...I've always been rather artistic...it is something I enjoy doing but ONLY when I feel inspired. I took art in HS and in college and I gotta tell you...assignments are absolutely stifling! It can be something I have done a million times...even something I *love* to do....but as soon as someone tells me to do it...I clam up. Is it me being stubborn? Perhaps...I have been accused of that from time to time. But it wasn't intentional. I will try to relate it to something I think will really speak to you. I know you have horses and that you most likely LOVE riding your horses (I mean, who wouldn't? LOL) but I am sure that there are days that you simply do not want to ride...because you are sick or injured or whatever....but for some reason (use your imagination...LOL) you are made to ride your horse anyhow...are you likely to get the same joy from doing it? The same exhileration...the same sense of satisfaction....or whatever it is that you experience when riding that brings you happiness....you may do what you have to do...but you aren't going to do your best...and you are not going to be happy about it. Does that make sense? Seriously, the BEST thing you can do is to back off. Leave her art personal. Do not critique it unless asked...and then give your honest opinion of the piece but no more no less. Her talent will develope at her own pace...she may delve into head first for awhile...and then not touch it for awhile...then delve again when the inspiration hits. But if she associates it with "work" she will only come to resent it and it WILL crush her artistic spirit. So, that is my opinion....I would go head to head with her on things like math or history or other academic studies...but not art. :thumbup1:

 

I can see the point you're trying to make, and I will definitely back off from dd. But I have to tell you that it's not the same with me and horses. Even when I don't want to work with them (get out of bed, get them in, whatever) the minute I begin working with them everything else dissolves. No house, no cooking, no laundry, it's just me and that horse in the world. Tunnel vision.

 

That's why it boggles my mind that she can be so defiant towards me that she'll turn her nose up at what is clearly a passion for her. She is given all the time, materials and encouragement any kid could ask for, and she'd rather rebel.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

One of my dds is a very talented artist. She is also extremely lazy, and will do only what needs to be done to get by. This is a pattern with everything she does. Piano, horses, chores and art.

 

We have told her that we feel she needs to learn some art basics, the grammar of her talent. I have been asking her to do a sketch of something simple everyday this week. She slaps something on paper and barely restrains herself from tossing it at me. (She may be lazy but she ain't stupid.)

 

I'm sure y'all can imagine what my reaction to her attitude is. Problem is, she's just as bull headed as I am. So tonight, when I handed her a new sketching pad, and saw the attitude coming on, I calmly told her that her dad and I felt she needed to develop certain areas with her drawing, and that if she wanted to pout about her art assignments she could live in her room until she was 20.

 

She feels we squash all her sponteneity (sp??) by having her draw. She got this idea from a SpongeBob episode, btw. We have very dramatic "I can't draw unless I feeeeel like it." We went through the same crap with piano for a while.... "I neeeed to play by ear, I can't read notes." She plays beautifully, and not nearly as well by ear as she thinks she does.

 

Anyhow, how does one know when to ease back and when to push? It's summer, sketching is easy, she's pouting. If she were in PS she'd be taking art and loving it. I know part of this is just a me/her thing.

 

I'm trying to change the dynamics of how I relate to her, just letting her know I love her but there are things we have to do sometimes. I had dad let her know he's on the same page as I am, he can do no wrong in her eyes.

 

Scuse me, I'm going somewhere she can't see me and scream into a pillow.

 

 

Boy, do I know where you are coming from. The only difference is my dd did not see that Sponge Bob show, thankfully. I recognized her talent very early and tried to encourage her and help her develop in any way possible. We used that book by Mona Brooks (?) on teaching children to draw. She had to draw while I read history, and the drawings had to pertain to our readings. We checked books on drawing out of the library, and I bought books for her. At 10 we paid for art lessons. Quote the art teacher (who happened to be a professional artist) : " Hard work counts for more than talent, even in art."

 

Dd's attitude toward life and anything that resembled work was summed up in what she told me at the age of 8: "Work is what people do in Hell."

 

She did not seriously realize that her artistic ability was a lifelong gift to be cherished till she was 19yo.

 

 

Edited to add: I just read Percy Truffle's post. She's right. I didn't think I pushed too much and I still don't, but my daughter and I are complete opposites. I did not understand her objections to structured learning, and our relationship did suffer from it. If I had it to do over, when it came to art I would only encourage and provide materials and leave other options open to her leading.

[Chris in VA]

"Work is what people do in Hell.":lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

 

I find that extremely amusing--work is what God gave Adam to do in the Garden. How twisted the notion of work has become!

 

Remuda, I just had a thought--you certainly know your dd best, and I think you've nailed it as rebellion, "keep your hands off my art" type stuff. But one tiny possibility occurred to me--I've noticed that sometimes reluctance to learn more about something I'm good at is really tied to fear. I think it's fear of failing. It's sometimes manifested as rebellion, or as an I'm so good I don't need to learn this attitude. Underneath that lurks a fear of not being as good as I thought I was. Could that be part of her "utter reluctance" to be directed?

 

Just an aside--ds' girlfriend draws really well. When she took art in high school this past year, she decided to rebel, and did not draw what was required. Instead of learning from the teacher, she only drew what she wanted. Failed the class. Crappy, crappy attitude got her an F--actually, she failed all of Jr Year because she "dinnit wanna." It's a shame to see her attitude waste her potential.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

I wouldn't call it Art. I'd call it Illustration, or Expository Drawing, and I'd make it a Science/History/Geography requirement. Tell her she must learn to create realistic renderings of whatever you're studying -- Biology would work best, but you can find ways for her to illustrate just about anything. Make the drawing "expository" instead of "creative", just as we differentiate expository and creative writing. Tell her she must learn to draw well enough to illustrate her science papers, and/or her history papers, and/or her geography papers. The skills she learns will translate into her creative drawing.

 

Just telling her to "go sketch something" is similar to telling many children to "just write about something". They simply don't know what to write about. IEW and CW work well because you make it very clear what is expected. By giving her specific things to draw, and a reason to do it, you get her over that hump. It's not so personal.

 

I took Metallurgy in college, and we had to look through microscopes and draw the crystal composition of steel and other metals. Then, we'd stick the samples in a very hot oven, cool them quickly or slowly, and draw the crystals again. Those who could draw well had a much easier time capturing the changes in the crystal structure. Those who couldn't draw just ended up with squiggly lines or a bunch of circles. Being able to draw is a skill that can be treated as any other skill.

 

The book I'd recommend is Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain, by Betty Edwards. You can get the workbook for her to go through, or get the original book, which goes into much more detail. Or, get both. You read the book, and she does the projects in the workbook. It's an awesome program, and it's easy to teach. You can get it from Amazon, or any major bookstore.