Desperate for Latin advice

[Jonibee]

My son took Latin I last year with a very great tutor in a co-op situation. This man is about 70, having taught Latin for 100 years and still teaches adult ed. So he was excited. So he got the kids excited. My son worked hard and the teacher said he had an excellent gift for languages. My son wants to be a linguist someday, with special interest in Japanese and Chinese. He started the year loving Latin.

 

The tutor is unavailable this year. He taught from "Latin is Fun" but put a lot of his own resources into it as well, having the kids write compositions in Latin, etc.

 

So what. This year I enrolled him in Virtual High School Latin 2 and it is WAYYYY over his head. He cannot do the 3 paragraphs of translation plus essay (in English) plus 15 more sentence translations into English and conjugations and identifying all the word parts of each word in the sentence, plus translate 15 sentences into Latin from English and do the same for those. After spending 25 hours trying to accomplish one week's worth of work (for the second week in a row), I had to drop him from the class. He started saying he loves Latin. He ended saying he hates Latin. :glare:

 

Grrrrr. I am so upset this week over my combined experiences with co-op teachers -- even if they ARE excited about what they teach -- what good is it if they are not getting to the expected level at the end of class???!! I am so done, done, DONE with using co-ops for a high school "class." What a joke. But I digress, and this post is not about that.

 

He wants to finish a year of Latin this year. I wish I could call it Latin 2. His old tutor said that Wheelock's is the best text, but I know nothing except medical roots. But I think we need some DVD instruction. He's getting tired of classes that are "just another book." I looked at First Form Latin and Second Form, etc., and am attracted because of the DVD component, but I don't see any placement test and where do we go from here?

 

How can I -- not knowing Latin -- find a resource to plug him in at any sort of proper level. Even slightly below "proper level" would work, I guess, but this is not a topic where he can stretch to get beyond where he is right now. Although he was able to drop the VHS class, it was too late to "add" him to Latin I with VHS. All of the online homeschool courses have already started. I am so discouraged.

 

My son doesn't want to miss a whole year of Latin and says if he has to do that, he'll probably drop Latin altogether for Chinese next year, continuing with Chinese and Japanese. Those are his two major language interests.

 

Can somebody point me in the right direction? Should I buy First Form and just start with square one? Is that a dumb thought? Should I get the Wheelock's text? Is that doable just plugging away without an instruct or or a mom who knows anything about Latin? Any other ideas?

[Candid]

People do take on Wheelock on their own.

 

The one thing I'd consider is going to the co-op you are currently enrolled in, explain that your son has a lot less Latin than you expected and ask if he can switch to the lower level class.

[Pam in MA]

I second the idea of working in Wheelock's this year, progressing from the beginning and making sure all holes are filled. There are supplemental materials available as well. Then find another resource for Latin II or wherever he ends up next year. We've really liked the Lukeion Project.

[Jonibee]

I second the idea of working in Wheelock's this year, progressing from the beginning and making sure all holes are filled. There are supplemental materials available as well. Then find another resource for Latin II or wherever he ends up next year. We've really liked the Lukeion Project.

 

 

:tongue_smilie:

I was really looking at that Lukeion Project in the spring . . . regrets, regrets.

 

Is there some reference online as to what section of Wheelock's would constitute a "first year high school level of achievement"? Or, working from the experience you have -- because if I can talk my son into pursuing just one more year of Latin, it's going to be with the Lukeion project -- how far should he expect to get in the Wheelock's to be able to plug into level 2 of Lukeion?

[Jonibee]

People do take on Wheelock on their own.

 

The one thing I'd consider is going to the co-op you are currently enrolled in, explain that your son has a lot less Latin than you expected and ask if he can switch to the lower level class.

 

Thanks for the thought. The co-op we are in is not offering Latin at all this year. :001_huh:

[3andme]

Visual Latin is a good DVD based program. There are schedules for using it in conjunction with Henle or Lingua Latina. Each video is relatively short and your ds could probably skip forward quickly to the proper spot.

 

Another alternative, Lone Pine offers an audit option on their Latin courses. You cannot participate in the live classes or receive a grade but you have access to all the recorded lectures, notes, and assignments for $100 per semester. The classes have already started but with this option you can work at your own pace.

[at the beach]

Since you said your son loved Latin, I think that trying to find an option that will help him move forward is a great idea. My daughter loves Latin also. She's in her second year of a Wheelock online course with Lukeion.

 

I am thinking your son is in 9th grade this year? If so, you have time on your side to "start over" this year. My daughter had done Henle Units 1-7 and she did not like it at all. She asked to start over with Lukeion. I had no idea she would end up loving Latin so much.

 

I think Lukeion might be full for first year Wheelock, or I would recommend putting him in level 1. My daughter just loves her Lukeion class and Mrs. Barr. If Lukeion is full, maybe he can do something else this year and move into Lukeion next year? Scholars Online has a course using Wheelock. There's also Veritas Press.

 

If you are looking for a do-it-yourself thing, can't advise there. I just know for us, Latin wasn't doable as a do-on-your-own course.

 

HTH. ETA: My daughter is taking German with Rolling Acres School and loves it. I am very impressed with the class so far and love the textbook they are using. They offer Latin but you would have to contact the Rollings to find out more about their approach. The German class has a weekly recorded lecture, a live class meeting, and regular office hours if a student needs extra help. I am thinking the Latin would work the same way. Their fall semester just started after Labor Day, and I think they are still accepting enrollments.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Violet

[Kendall]

I'm not familiar with Latin is Fun would help to know what he learned the first year. Maybe he could answer.

 

Did he learn all 5 noun declensions?

What verb tenses did he learn(present, imperfect,future, perfect, pluperfect, future perfect? Did he learn passive verbs or only active? Did he learn the subjunctive?

Did he learn how to decline adjectives?

 

I don't know First Form, but if it is in the order of Henle, all 5 noun declensions are covered (with some verb forms given so that you can make sentences) , then conjugations in the present tenses. I think First Form does not have as much translation as Henle.

 

Of Wheelocks vs. Henle I think Henle would be more self teaching, but many kids would struggle with either if they are self-teaching. If you can't learn along with him, a tutor/class/video would be my recommendation. I wonder if you still get him in a Latin 1 class with scholars online or ragina coeli or The Potters School (I'm sure there are others). If they knew what he already knew, they might let him in if he knew enough to not be behind much starting now.

 

I think TPS uses Lingua Latina, Regina coeli uses Henle(might be Wheelocks) and Scholars online uses Wheelocks.

[gingersmom]

Have you checked out Latin Alive?

[shanvan]

:tongue_smilie:

I was really looking at that Lukeion Project in the spring . . . regrets, regrets.

 

Is there some reference online as to what section of Wheelock's would constitute a "first year high school level of achievement"? Or, working from the experience you have -- because if I can talk my son into pursuing just one more year of Latin, it's going to be with the Lukeion project -- how far should he expect to get in the Wheelock's to be able to plug into level 2 of Lukeion?

 

From what I see on their site, Lukeion still has openings for Latin 1b in the 2nd semester. I would contact them to see what you need to do to get your Ds into the course. I think 1a is covering Wheelock's Ch 1-9. This is my Ds's first class with Lukeion and he loves it, loves Latin. We both highly recommend it. Maybe your Ds has learned enough that you can take him through Ch 9 and he can join in with Lukeion for the 2nd semester.

[1Togo]

Ditto for Lukeion in this house. It is excellent. I would see if you can find a way to get through Wheelock Chapter 1-9 and enroll in Latin 1B. There is a Wheelock workbook plus other supplemental materials that might help you.

[Beth in Mint Hill]

:tongue_smilie:

I was really looking at that Lukeion Project in the spring . . . regrets, regrets.

 

Is there some reference online as to what section of Wheelock's would constitute a "first year high school level of achievement"? Or, working from the experience you have -- because if I can talk my son into pursuing just one more year of Latin, it's going to be with the Lukeion project -- how far should he expect to get in the Wheelock's to be able to plug into level 2 of Lukeion?

 

 

Hi there,

If you still wish to get in on a Latin II course it's not too late to join in with us at my Wiziq Latin Online. :tongue_smilie: I use Wheelock's and we are just at the end of the "Reviewing Latin I stage." Also, the class sessions are recorded and available for review at any time. :) (Find more info at website below.)

 

To answer the question,"what constitutes high school Latin I?" --- the best national standard for this is the NLE (National Latin Exam). Go to their website and you can print out a previous years' test for "Latin I" and have him take that. It comes with a KEY. Sounds like the course you had him signed up for this Fall was *very* intense and accelerated. I don't believe that the Latin course should load on so much work that the student can't handle 4-5 other subjects at the same time. But I do make sure that the students work hard at it. And have plenty of feedback to develop their understanding of the language.

 

We cover about 15-16 chapters of Wheelock's each year (rather than the 20 that Lukeion seems to do), because I like to give the students periodic reviews and time to do easy readings at various stages in order that they really assimilate the material we are covering. A large percentage of my students win awards when they take the NLE, so I am confident that I'm covering a typical amount of Latin grammar for the national standard.

 

Here is an online test that I'm about to give my students for practice, so if you'd like to, have him try it. :) It does cover the perfect tenses, so if he hasn't studied those he wouldn't be expected to do better than 75%.

http://www.wiziq.com/online-tests/20728-latin-ii-test-2

 

I just hope you find something that he can enjoy!! So sorry that the previous teacher wasn't able to continue; he sounds delightful.

[Corraleno]

From what I see on their site, Lukeion still has openings for Latin 1b in the 2nd semester. I would contact them to see what you need to do to get your Ds into the course. I think 1a is covering Wheelock's Ch 1-9. This is my Ds's first class with Lukeion and he loves it, loves Latin. We both highly recommend it. Maybe your Ds has learned enough that you can take him through Ch 9 and he can join in with Lukeion for the 2nd semester.

:iagree:

This is exactly what I would recommend. Get a copy of Wheelock's and work through the 1st 9 chapters, then jump into Latin 1b with Lukeion at the end of January. You might even try emailing Amy Barr to ask if it would be possible to audit 1a; they don't normally allow auditing the language classes, but if he were enrolled in 1b, they might let you pay to audit 1a and just watch the recorded lectures. Unfortunately, though, the lectures are only kept online for 1 week (until the next lecture is recorded), so there'd be no way at this point to see the first 3 lectures. (But then again he probably already covered that material in his coop Latin class, so it might not matter.)

 

Jackie

[Guest mfrench8]

As a former Latin teacher, I would not recommend Visual Latin. I think it's a great idea! The teacher is passionate. It's set up well. Unfortunately, the answer keys contain numerous mistakes which make using the program frustrating and confusing for those unfamiliar with Latin.

 

My opinion, for what it's worth, lol, is that each school and class within a school will cover a certain amount of curriculum each year depending on a number of factors. Students in a 2nd year Latin course still get credit for taking a full year of 2nd year Latin even if they accomplish less than another school's Latin 2 course. Really, this is typical. Same with any other course in a classroom setting. The whole textbook is NEVER completed. Promise. :)

 

I recommend Linney's Latin for a transitional class where a student wants more than self-study from a textbook.

 

http://linneyslatinclass.com/

 

My favorite Latin is Henle, but I am very opinionated.

 

No matter which course of study your son chooses, the most important determiner of success in Latin is memorizing, and I do mean memorizing backwards and forwards, all of the forms. It is impossible to move to translation work without that foundation. Any text will work if the student memorizes all of the charts for all nouns, verbs, tenses, pronouns, etc. No text will work without that memory work firmly in place. It is essential.

 

Good luck!

 

btw. ,most high schools take at least two years to work through Henle I. I can guarantee you that each of those students gets credit for Latin I and Latin II over the course of those two years.

 

Also, Henle is a high school text series. It cannot be completed in 4 years of high school without foundational Latin work in junior high.

 

And,...Wheelock's is a college text. It is not written to be the first text a Latin student uses. It is written to transition students who have previously studied Latin in high school into reading original Latin works which are more complex than the Caesar usually encountered in upper level high school courses. Rarely will a Latin student progress to the level of Virgil or Cicero in high school. Our systems are just no longer set up to support that goal.

 

For what it's worth. :)

 

Laura

[Candid]

Thanks for the thought. The co-op we are in is not offering Latin at all this year. :001_huh:

 

No, I'm sorry I wasn't clear I meant ask Virtual High School Latin 2 to switch him to Latin 1. There would be some redundancy but you'd save the money you've already spent.

[mjbucks1]

From what I see on their site, Lukeion still has openings for Latin 1b in the 2nd semester. I would contact them to see what you need to do to get your Ds into the course. I think 1a is covering Wheelock's Ch 1-9. This is my Ds's first class with Lukeion and he loves it, loves Latin. We both highly recommend it. Maybe your Ds has learned enough that you can take him through Ch 9 and he can join in with Lukeion for the 2nd semester.

 

I agree. This is what I would try first :).

If this does not work out, study Wheelock's at home. My ds and I did this for the first 18 chapters. I had e-mailed Dale Grote (who wrote the Companion to Wheelock) and he sent me CD lectures he had recorded (but I do not have his e-mail address any longer). I found answers online to the 6th addition (both the text and workbook). It was a lot of work, so we switched to an online class last year (with Regina Coeli). This year my ds is taking Latin III with Lukeion and LOVES it!!!

Blessings,

Michelle

[ks-sunflower]

My ds and I are finishing Wheelock but I was looking at this new curriculum- Latin for the New Millenium that is geared for high school students. Here is the link: http://www.lnm.bolchazy.com/index.html and

http://www.lnm.bolchazy.com/about.html

[flyingiguana]

My kids didn't get much out of Wheelock's past the first few chapters. There's no reading practice, and even the translation exercises aren't numerous enough. It moves really fast, meaning my kids didn't have time to cement their knowledge. I'd think, to use it effectively, that you'd need a fair amount of supplementation and review that the book itself doesn't provide. The companion reader (38 Latin stories??) is nice but even it isn't enough.

 

And I also notice that the colleges around here are no longer using Wheelock's as their text, even though they all used to a few years ago.

 

We did have success with Cambridge Latin. There's a lot more reading and review. I found that that cemented things much better in my kids' minds than constant grammar drill.

 

There is also a youtube series of a guy who covers everything in the books:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4-BEA0ZXuI

(that's video 4, but you can find the others by looking down the side)

 

He also went on to do a series on Learning Latin with Vergil, which also show up on youtube.

 

And Cambridge Latin has a very nice site to go with their books:

http://www.cambridgescp.com/Lpage_A.php?p=clc^oa_intro^intro

You may have to pay for access if you're not in the UK, but there are several chapters in the various books that are open and free to try so you could see if it would work for you (and what level your son should be at).

 

And I don't know that I'd fault his previous tutor for his "lack" of knowledge. Language courses go at different paces, and sometimes a teacher will take their time to be sure the kids are really getting the concepts. Rapid memorization of a lot of things doesn't always stick.

 

FWIW -- two of the colleges near us are using Latin for a New Millennium and Ecce Romani.

[flyingiguana]

http://wheelockslatin.com/wheelocksteacherguide.html

The official Wheelock's site -- with lesson plans, handouts, quizzes, etc.

 

I haven't looked into it at all, but from the headings it looks like it could be really useful.

[Beth in Mint Hill]

My kids didn't get much out of Wheelock's past the first few chapters. There's no reading practice, and even the translation exercises aren't numerous enough. It moves really fast, meaning my kids didn't have time to cement their knowledge. I'd think, to use it effectively, that you'd need a fair amount of supplementation and review that the book itself doesn't provide. The companion reader (38 Latin stories??) is nice but even it isn't enough....

 

 

I agree with you! Wheelock's doesn't have enough easy practice; yet, because it has such great coverage of the grammar and syntax, I still use it. Latin for the New Millenium looks wonderful and it even has exercises to develop Latin conversation in the chapters (something that I also do in my classes). I've been SO tempted to switch to it, but it is so expensive! and there aren't as many free helps online for it as there are for Wheelock's.

 

Anyway, over the years I have developed a workbook (Studium Latinae) that has many easy exercises and translations for each chapter. I use this with the Wheelock's text in my classes. And to mitigate the fact that it moves so fast I intersperse the chapters with other readings from antique Latin texts. :)

Edited September 22, 2012 by Beth in Mint Hill

[Jonibee]

http://wheelockslatin.com/wheelocksteacherguide.html

The official Wheelock's site -- with lesson plans, handouts, quizzes, etc.

 

I haven't looked into it at all, but from the headings it looks like it could be really useful.

 

 

Wow. This looks fabulously helpful.

 

Thanks, all, for the advice given. I did email Amy at Lukeion and got a response already. My son is taking the mid-year placement test and I hope to enroll him for Latin 1b for his second semester this year.

 

For right now, I'm buying the Wheelocks book with workbook. He can use all these resources and it should be a lot of review at first, so hopefully he will be able to get to a strong finish of Ch. 9 by semester end.

 

Seeing as how languages are the one special interest of this particular student, I am very excited to hear how happy people are with Lukeion! I so much want to be "happy" with a Latin choice. (BTW, my son -- and I, by extension -- are VERY happy with Irrashai!)

 

This is the hardest about homeschooling -- I think all year long about next year, then when we actually start it, there is always a scramble in something. Oh, no. What I meant to say is that's the beauty of homeschooling, right? Oh yes. The beauty of finding the right resource. Yes. Now, if I could just get that "finding it at the right time" down . . . you'd think by child 5, I'd have this figured out!! ;)

[Rebecca VA]

Another very happy former Lukeion user here! My daughter took Lukeion Latin 1, 2, and 3a with wonderful results *and* we went on all three Lukeion trips to the Ancient World (Italy, Greece, and Turkey) with the Barrs! I recommend Lukeion very highly!!

[shanvan]

Another very happy former Lukeion user here! My daughter took Lukeion Latin 1, 2, and 3a with wonderful results *and* we went on all three Lukeion trips to the Ancient World (Italy, Greece, and Turkey) with the Barrs! I recommend Lukeion very highly!!

 

Who went on the trips? You and Dd? My Ds is very interested, but I don't think we can ever fit it into the budget. Definitely not for the entire family. I've been thinking about ways to save. Sorry to side track, but I did see that the OP has decided on a solution:hurray:

[Rebecca VA]

Yes, I went all three times (Italy in '08, Greece in '09, and Turkey in '10) with my daughter. We felt that our travel money was extremely well-spent. We saw places that were sometimes off the beaten path (for example, we saw Nero's Golden House -- which is now closed to the public -- on the Italy trip, and we walked around in Tiberius's sea cave), and we got to interact a fair amount with the locals. We had fabulous local tour guides who stayed with us the entire length of the trip. Amy and Regan kept us well-informed about what we were seeing through their know-before-you-go web seminars and their lectures in the tour bus. The trips were definitely learning trips, but we had lots of fun and did amazing things.

 

Amy and Regan were archeologists in Turkey for years, and they really know the Ancient World well. They have custom-planned these trips. When we were in Turkey, we got to walk through the excavation of ancient Troy with one of the archeologists. We walked on the wall of Troy! Most of the area we walked through is closed to the public, but Amy and Regan got permission for us to go. We often had the feeling of being VIPs because we were able to go to the front of lines and do things other people didn't do -- and that happened because Amy and Regan planned our days so thoughtfully beforehand.

 

I loved the trips and begged Amy to organize another tour. She was thinking of taking one through Egypt and North Africa, but the next year things blew up politically there, so I doubt that'll ever happen.

 

Definitely, if you can possibly swing it financially, you should try to go.

[Corraleno]

Who went on the trips? You and Dd? My Ds is very interested, but I don't think we can ever fit it into the budget. Definitely not for the entire family. I've been thinking about ways to save.

Our family went to Greece with Lukeion last year, and we'll be going to Turkey with them next year. It was both amazing and exhausting — they pack SO many sites and museums into the trip! And all of the people on the tour are so nice, it's always a great group. If you can find a way to afford it, you won't regret it — it really is the trip of a lifetime.

 

We had fabulous local tour guides who stayed with us the entire length of the trip.

Did you have Mimo as your guide in Italy? He does Greek tours now, too! We absolutely adored him, and can't wait to see him again on the Italy trip (2014).

 

Jackie

[Rebecca VA]

Yes, we had Mimo! What an intelligent, decent guy he is!

 

We had Julie as our tour guide in Greece. Julie is originally from California, but she has been living in Greece most of her adult life. I was secretly very glad to have an American as our guide because I have a lot of trouble understanding accents.

 

I hope you get the same guide we had in Turkey. I can't remember his name, but he looks just like George Clooney! Swoon...he's extremely kind and dignified as well.

 

I loved the Turkey trip. The Turkish people are so interesting, and they were so eager for us to enjoy their country. I totally loved the fresh, healthy food we had available to us all the time -- the food came fresh off the farms we passed in the tour bus. You'll have a great time!!

[flyingiguana]

I agree with you! Wheelock's doesn't have enough easy practice; yet, because it has such great coverage of the grammar and syntax, I still use it.

 

And I now notice on that Wheelock's site that I posted, that they also have a reader: Scribblers, Scvlptors, and Scribes

 

Has anyone used it?

[Kathy in Richmond]

And I now notice on that Wheelock's site that I posted, that they also have a reader: Scribblers, Scvlptors, and Scribes

 

Has anyone used it?

 

I have this one, but I haven't had much time to dig in yet. Each chapter is linked to the material in a corresponding chapter of Wheelock's text. Just for fun (since I reviewed Ch 23 on participles from Wheelock's last week), I pulled out Ch 23 of Scribblers. The chapter title, Politics, Prophecies, and Broken Promises, gives the theme for six pages of short readings, including oracle responses, negative campaign ads :), (all found on artifacts from ancient Rome), a section of ten proverbs, and two short readings, one Martial and another Petronius. All the readings and sayings have vocabulary glosses and grammar notes as needed (lots and lots of helps). There are a few Quaestiones interspersed and a Grammatica (grammar exercise) at the end of the chapter. Looks very interesting! You could pick and choose; everything is short and sweet, and you could do a sampling easily if you don't have time to do the whole thing. I think it would be a useful and FUN extra for anyone studying Wheelock's.

Grrrrr. I am so upset this week over my combined experiences with co-op teachers -- even if they ARE excited about what they teach -- what good is it if they are not getting to the expected level at the end of class???!! I am so done, done, DONE with using co-ops for a high school "class." What a joke. But I digress, and this post is not about that.

 

I'm curious what the expectation was for the co-op class? Was the expectation that it would cover a full year of high school language? How often did it meet? How much out of class work was there? Keep in mind that at least your student was an 8th grader -- how old were the other students? I think a reasonable expectation of work for a first year language class is the equivalent of (roughly) an hour a day of direct instruction every day of the week, and roughly the same amount of study outside of class. I know around here it seems like toddlers are taking AP classes, but perhaps resetting expectations is appropriate.

 

There is nothing wrong with an introduction to Latin (or any other language, for that matter) for 8th graders, that covers maybe half or less of a full year of high school language, just as long as the teachers are honest about the material they cover.

 

Finally, I note with irony how many of us who decry "teaching to the test", and the rise of the standardized testing industry, need to rely on a standardized test like the NLE to verify progress. I don't have a good solution for this conundrum, but I think it shows how complicated things get in real life.