Embassy Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 A old friend on Facebook posted this about her child today. The parent was proud and the responses were along those lines. Helping others is great and it is awesome that the little boy (around 7 years old) is doing great academically, but what about his education? Also is it proper that other kids and parents of those kids should know all about another child's difficulties? Names removed of course ----- is going to start teaching tomorrow. One of his classmates needs some help reading, but isn't to the point of needing intervention so while the teacher is working with those who do need intervention, ----- will be working with his friend. He picked out a book today to start with and seems to have a plan. He also is in charge of helping others log onto the computer to take quizzes over the books that they have read during free reading time while the teacher works with other students who are lagging behind in reading. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I'm not a fan of it. As you said, what about this little boy's education? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stef03 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 This seems pretty typical in schools imho, they can't accelerate the advanced kids so they find "helping" jobs for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plateau Mama Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 This seems pretty typical in schools imho, they can't accelerate the advanced kids so they find "helping" jobs for them. :iagree: Yup, when my daughter was in K the teacher had her helping all the other kids write in their journal. She would also have her do story time at the end of the day. This same teacher also told me in November that she had already passed K and they weren't going to work with her anymore. Total waste of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Posting that "statement" on facebook for friends to see is in bad taste in my opinion. This seems pretty typical in schools imho, they can't accelerate the advanced kids so they find "helping" jobs for them. My dad who is a teacher thinks that way too. He said I should send my boys to B&M school so that they can be teacher's helper :banghead: I was teacher's helper and I didn't like that at all. I like helping my classmates out of my own free will but I dislike being delegated to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merylvdm Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 While the ideal would be to have that child do accelerated work, being able to help tutor is better than my experience at high school. I had one math teacher (and I had her multiple years) who got mad if I moved about during class time and helped others. Once I was done my work, I had absolutely nothing to do. I was neither given more advanced work - nor allowed to tutor - nor do anything else. It is a pity that most teachers can't handle different levels in their classes. I teach at a co op and also have extra things for those students who finish their work quickly. But that takes more time to do as well .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Posting the name of the other kid to FB is clearly in bad taste. As for the situation... I think it really depends. Teaching something is actually a wonderful way to learn it better yourself. I'm sure many of the parents here have their olders teach their youngers (even when the age gap is pretty small) and see benefits from it for the child doing the teaching as well as for the child learning. A sense of pride, a sense of responsibility, an increased facility with the knowledge... So theoretically, I think it's a positive thing. In the real world classroom, I still think it could be good, but I also think it can easily get overused (to the detriment of both the tutor kid and the remediating kid), not be overseen properly, and just generally be a way to shuffle off kids who are outside that desired norm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadianmumof5 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 This seems pretty typical in schools imho, they can't accelerate the advanced kids so they find "helping" jobs for them. Agreed 100%. We were told it was good for building leadership skills. Ummmm....no. But why hire TAs or fund additional resources when you can outsource to a 7 year old (or 5, or 11 year old). :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plateau Mama Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Posting the name of the other kid to FB is clearly in bad taste. As for the situation... I think it really depends. Teaching something is actually a wonderful way to learn it better yourself. I'm sure many of the parents here have their olders teach their youngers (even when the age gap is pretty small) and see benefits from it for the child doing the teaching as well as for the child learning. A sense of pride, a sense of responsibility, an increased facility with the knowledge... So theoretically, I think it's a positive thing. In the real world classroom, I still think it could be good, but I also think it can easily get overused (to the detriment of both the tutor kid and the remediating kid), not be overseen properly, and just generally be a way to shuffle off kids who are outside that desired norm. To a point this is true. In my experience, here is where it becomes a problem, the kids learn really quick that so and so it "smarter" than them and become resentful. The tutor child is no longer seen as a peer. This becomes difficult for the tutor child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbridgeacademy Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 We sent DC to school for 1 semester when DS was in 3rd grade. He's dyslexic so he had a lot of trouble with the reading assignments to the point that he never got recess (had to stay in and finish his work). When it came time for math he would fly through the work. So instead of letting him do his reading work his teacher had him help another child in the class. When I found this out and threw a fit they said it would require too much of the teachers time to have him do his reading work. It was like he was being punished for having a LD. It is still one of the things that he is proud of, helping the other boy. He also is very proud of the fact that he taught his sister how to add and subtract. So there is a fine line on what is good for the childs self-esteem and what is a detriment to his own learning. In public school (one size fits all) this may be the best they can do.... another reason (#246) why I homeschool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embassy Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 Posting the name of the other kid to FB is clearly in bad taste. Sorry for not being clear...the only name she posted was her son's name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) I think it's lovely if a kid wants to help another kid. If I had a gifted kid in school, of course I would like him to be accelerated to some degree, so that he got some challenging work. But I'd also be happy for him to spend a little bit of time helping other kids if he wanted to. However I would not want this to be something that the teacher officially laid on him, because the teacher shouldn't be expecting students to do her job. What if this little boy - who after all is very young, and might not be as mature as he is academically gifted - finds it too heavy a responsibility to tutor his friend? He might not feel able to back out. Edited September 21, 2012 by Hotdrink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfknitter.# Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I'm not familiar with this, but I'm not surprised by it. I could see something like this in our local schools. What I wonder is why can't the school move this child along a grade if he/she has clearly demonstrated mastery of the curriculum instead of creating a tutor job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwik Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 The only way I can see this being ok is if the time the teacher saved due to his efforts was used to provide him with advanced 1:1 time with the teacher. Alas this seems unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanikit Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I find this not ok for a number of reasons - as mentioned the 7 year old himself needs to be taught (at his level) after all he is going to school to get an education. The child who needs help with reading should also be being taught - if a 7 year old is a capable teacher than why did the teacher have to go and get a degree to teach - this is the same argument used against homeschooling and clearly a 7 year and a parent are quite capable of teaching, but it is not fair on the child who is paying the teachers salary to be taught by a classmate. Finally it also not fair on the teacher in some ways - she is not being expected to do her job properly on multiple levels - she is neither catering to the gifted child nor to the one who is behind by allowing the other child to teach. She needs to do her job. This is one of the many reasons why my own daughter is not going to kindergarten next year and will be homeschooled - she can teach her sister if she decides she wants to help, but it is not her job to do so and she is not my "helper" for that either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enrich Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 This is not surprising to me as I have tutored my classmates all the way from school days until my college days. People here have mentioned that the self-esteem of the student who tutors will rise. It really depends on the students being tutored. In my case, I was always asked to tutor the students at the bottom end of the class (now I think that they must be dyslexic or dyscalculia or some sort of learning disabilities). When they couldn't learn I have always felt miserable and I thought that I don't have the capability to teach (mind that I was so young when I got this feeling). So it is not always good IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mohop Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 The idea of having advanced kids helping other kids in the classroom doesn't really bother me the way it seems to bother most of you. As someone mentioned, there can be some great learning opportunities for the advanced child in this situation. I don't know that much about what is happening in elementary schools, but I would see it as a problem if an advanced child was being continuously "held back" b/c he was far ahead of the other kids, and, at the same time, it seems to potentially reinforce stratification in the class room (the "smart" kids vs the "dumb" kids). Those are my main concerns, but as a general matter, I'd also be proud if my child had the maturity and empathy, as well as the smarts, to help other kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 One reason why we pulled my DD was because she'd started giving silly answers, deliberately answering incorrectly on papers, and generally hiding what she knew because "I don't want the other kids to feel bad". She just wanted to fit in, and as an already grade skipped, youngest in class who was being pulled out to do reading and math with kids a couple of years older, the last thing she wold have wanted was to be told to help someone else. What has worked well for DD in science class, where, again, she's the youngest, is to assign her to an older child who has good fine motor skills and therefore has an easier time with the tasks DD struggles with, like exactly adjusting a microscope, but who is weak in reading/writing. DD will read the instructions and record answers, while the other sets up the lab and does the physical tasks, and they're both happy and learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily_Grace Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I've been doing some reading about different education styles. I'm on the fence about this. On one hand, the child isn't getting a level-appropriate reading education, but on the other, is he gaining productive skills? In public school reading is reading. I was never expected to critically think about the work and how it related, or to go deeper into a text than the first layer. More to the point, reading isn't a subject once you learn how to do it - it simply becomes an extension of other subjects until you are mature enough to go into deeper concepts. I think that the value and the skills the boy could be learning - patience, encouragement, empathy, organization, creative problem solving - are all skills that translate into being a productive adult. They aren't lesser skills than a reading lesson, and if there is the time I don't see any harm. That is, provided that the teacher is encouraging those skills at the same time. I think, when applied to other subjects, teaching to one's peers offers another benefit - review. I know my son grasps concepts better when we follow a pattern of see, do, write, teach. They are reinforced in his mind with the last step because he needs to come up with more than one way to present the material. But like I said, I'm on the fence. I don't know if it is the best use of a student's time, but certainly it's not the worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Like I said, I think this can be misused (or maybe is almost always misused or overused) in most public schools. There should be time for the kid to be taught as well. But just dismissively saying, "That's a waste of time," seems harsh to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I recall being asked to help with another student's reading in sixth grade. A few of us who were strong readers were asked if we'd be willing to pair up with another student who was struggling and help them. We would regularly spend time outside somewhere quiet and pleasant (within view of our classroom) and listen to our partner read, helping as needed. Being both introverted and shy this actually stretched my comfort zone, but I recall us developing friendships as a result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plateau Mama Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I think it's lovely if a kid wants to help another kid. If I had a gifted kid in school, of course I would like him to be accelerated to some degree, so that he got some challenging work. But I'd also be happy for him to spend a little bit of time helping other kids if he wanted to. However I would not want this to be something that the teacher officially laid on him, because the teacher shouldn't be expecting students to do her job. . If it was the childs choice that is one thing (to an extent). In my experience they tell the children to help or "ask", but what 5yo (or 7yo) is going to say no? They are taught to do what the teacher asks, I'm sure most young, obedient children, aren't comfortable saying no. What I wonder is why can't the school move this child along a grade if he/she has clearly demonstrated mastery of the curriculum instead of creating a tutor job? They don't move them along for two things $$ and test scores. If you move the kid up a grade you lose out on a year of funding (yes, they look at it that way). Having a gifted child remain in their grade also raises test scores. Take a look at gifted programs. Districts that have full time gifted programs only at certain schools will always place the program at the lower performing schools. This raises test scores. When my daughters program was moved (they added another school), the school they went to raised their test scores significanly the first year and suddently became school of distinction, which got them extra $$ and awards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 That happened to my dad in algebra. He finished the year's assignments in one week (all correct), and the teacher had him tutor students the rest of the year. I do feel bad for the tutor kid in that he can't go at his own pace, but I think the situation is better than him sitting in class reading â€The cat sat on the mat†when he's ready for much more. He may not be able to skip a grade because of writing requirements or something else. When I pulled DS1 out of school, people asked why I didn't just skip a grade. Well, it wouldn't have worked: 1) writing was not up to the next grade's standards (physical ability), 2) the reading problem wouldn't have been helped, since his reading was several grades above level, 3) math problem wouldn't have been helped because he learns faster than one grade level per year. So a grade skip would have resulted in creating stress over writing and still having the same problem with reading and math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyforlatin Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) I was made to tutor a friend in Chemistry, and it was just uncomfortable for both of us. I taught my brother the same subject, but teaching a friend was another story. I didn't want to be picked out of the class to teach a friend. She didn't approach me for help, which would have made our dynamic different. We both wanted to end it as quickly as possible. At the end, she didn't learn because she pretended to understand, and I didn't broach further because it would imply that she was not understanding the material. For second graders maybe there isn't that tension. Edited September 21, 2012 by crazyforlatin Yeeks, meant uncomfortable situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meriwether Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Posting the name of the other kid to FB is clearly in bad taste. As for the situation... I think it really depends. Teaching something is actually a wonderful way to learn it better yourself. I'm sure many of the parents here have their olders teach their youngers (even when the age gap is pretty small) and see benefits from it for the child doing the teaching as well as for the child learning. A sense of pride, a sense of responsibility, an increased facility with the knowledge... So theoretically, I think it's a positive thing. In the real world classroom, I still think it could be good, but I also think it can easily get overused (to the detriment of both the tutor kid and the remediating kid), not be overseen properly, and just generally be a way to shuffle off kids who are outside that desired norm. :iagree: Having to explain something helps cement understanding. It can be a valuable tool in a classroom. It can also be overused. It can be thoughtful help to both students or a crutch for the teacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanikit Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) Having to explain something helps cement understanding. I agree with this to a certain extent, but not in elementary grades when it comes to reading - you are highly unlikely to be cementing understanding here - reading is not so much about understanding how to read or do something - it is about gaining understanding from text - how many adults actually understand how they read - they don't - they just read and try to understand what they are reading. A child who is already reading and is forced to tutor another without having their own reading skills advanced will actually go backward with their reading skills especially if parents presume the school is doing what they should but in reality are not helping the child move ahead. I know this because it happened to my niece - her mother was working a lot and did not have so much time to coach reading and while the child could still read after a year helping her friends in kindergarten, she had not advanced at all and was no longer keen to read at all. She has since been pulled from the school and is being homeschooled and her reading is advancing again at a rapid rate and she is much happier. I have no problem with children teaching others during group work or when they choose to or children at the same level helping each other - helping is good, but not at the expense of learning and that is almost always what happens when this is set up in the classroom - the reason is that the only reason the child is asked to help is: because he knows everything! He doesn't know everything - he knows what you have planned to teach. Teaching someone else is actually a skill that is taught to teachers in university - to set a child up to that and then to not give him the skills to successfully teach is cruel. Yes, as homeschoolers we use trial and error and various curricula and we do not have to be teachers, but this is our choice and often our passion - we are not 7 years old and in need of an education ourselves. So many of the skills that people have listed as being positive about this are skills that a child should be TAUGHT and by making them a helper you are not teaching anything - the end result may be an empathetic, mature child or it could also be a frustrated, angry, bored child - its rather hit and miss unless someone actually makes it part if the advanced child's curriculum and teaches him/her how to teach. (And they can't because they don't know how to do it themselves.) Edited September 21, 2012 by Tanikit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airforcefamily Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) I've been that kid in school while it's great to help out occasionally often it was no fun. In gym class everyone was swimming and playing games in the pool for an entire semester. I was already certified as a swim instructor and was told I would be teaching a classmate who didn't know how to swim instead of being part of everything else or learning more advanced skills. If I had refused the school would have had to hire a teacher for her. The kicker was that this was my after school and weekend job and was paid by the district to teach in school at those times. I would be fine with my seven year old doing something like this on occasion but it shouldn't become a regular thing. That child should be learning most of the time, not forced to constantly go over things already learned with other children. The parents should be requesting their child be advanced and a real, adult teacher be brought in to help other students. . If schools are about fostering social skills as much as academic ones (as they lead us to believe when they go after the potential faults of homeschooling) then why is a child put in the role of teacher? It's bad socially for both kids involved. Do the parents of the child being 'tutored' know anything about this? To be honest, I would be rather annoyed with any school that tried to put a seven year old in charge of teaching my child to read. The fact that the post says the little boy is choosing books and things tells me that they're giving him room to, in essence, design a curriculum for the other child without knowing what in the world he's doing. I would get a phone number or email off the class list and talk to the other parents involved to make sure they know. Their child might be too embarrassed by the situation to tell their parents or speak up to the teacher Within my own family I never ask older kids to teach younger kids but they often automatically give advice to the younger ones or show them how to do something if I can't be there immediately to show them myself. Edited September 21, 2012 by airforcefamily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathnerd Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 It is a great thing for a small child to teach someone else. It gives them pride in their abilities, a sense of achievement, happiness and fulfillment that they were of help to their peer and it is true that "you learn better by teaching others". That being said, this should definitely be restricted to very few occasions. It should never be the responsibility of one kid to teach or lead another kid - if I were the parent of either one of these kids, I would find the situation objectionable. And what about the money the school is paid for educating all the kids in a classroom? And what about the salaried teachers involved - their job certainly seems easy from my point of view if someone else could shoulder their responsibility even partially. The school district that my son goes to implements these "peer teacher" policies, in addition to "mixed grade" classes where they stick gifted kids due to a lack of budget for gifted programs - the older kids then, "help/teach" younger grade kids during class time. They say that it is their way of encouraging "leadership abilities" and "responsibility". My DH calls it glorified "child labor" in America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 When dd was in 1st, she was assigned a 'buddy' to keep her in line (help her with her impulse control). We hated it -- should another student be put in charge of mine? because that's how the teacher phrased it 'in charge' -- and we pulled dd very soon after I found out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airforcefamily Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 When dd was in 1st, she was assigned a 'buddy' to keep her in line (help her with her impulse control). We hated it -- should another student be put in charge of mine? because that's how the teacher phrased it 'in charge' -- and we pulled dd very soon after I found out. What?! That's completely unacceptable. When our older two were in school the preschoolers and kindergarteners were paired with seventh and eighth graders each week when they went to mass as a school. It was just to help keep the kids safe while walking through the parking lot and help the teacher keep little ones with short attention spans quiet. I didn't mind and if I did we could have found another school. I would have furious and left had they tried to put a peer in the same class or not much older in charge of my child - that's what the teachers were being paid to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 It was another student in the same class, one who had been held back a year so was a year older, but still in 1st grade. The teacher saw absolutely nothing wrong with it, and the fact that dd hated it the teacher saw as proof that she was doing the right thing. She felt that dd would learn to control herself more quickly since she hated having another student in charge of her. We felt it was unacceptable, too, and was a big reason why we pulled her out shortly thereafter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypamama Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) Not a fan of the idea, in general. Now, if it was older students helping younger students, that's a little different. As a high school student, I tutored younger kids (elementary and middle school level), and that was a good thing. I also helped out in the high school's ESL classroom, which let those students get a bit more one-on-one attention so that they could learn English faster. Those students seemed appreciative, rather than resentful. I think having kids tutor other kids in the same classroom could backfire very easily, with the tutor and the tutee feeling resentful. Plus it does not teach the tutor anything new. I remember being made to work with the slower readers in my first grade classroom, and it was annoying. At the same time, if done well, maybe it can be a good thing. Maybe for a bored, disruptive child, having a productive task to do could channel the energy in a good way (still, though, I think I'd find something other than tutoring kids in the same class for the bored advanced child to do). And if it's a friend voluntarily doing the helping -- "My friend Emily's having trouble with math, so I'm going to help her learn her multiplication tables" -- maybe that's different. But as a matter of course, as the teacher's plan, for kids to tutor each other, I vote no. Edited September 22, 2012 by happypamama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErinC2100 Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Both of my girls were put in this situation. My dd in k was put at the difficult table. To help bring those students up to level using her as a model. My 4th grader had to tutor another student and was then labeled a nerd and teachers pet. It was a big factor in us going back to homeschooling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 This seems pretty typical in schools imho, they can't accelerate the advanced kids so they find "helping" jobs for them. Yes, exactly. Another big reason we started homeschooling. Rebecca would have been the "helper." :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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