nmoira Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Well, no one calls the ACLU about the football fields? Mom had a hissy fit about the dance, and boom, there was a law made. THere are far more egregious sins going on with public money other than father daughter dances. Not quite. The law was already on the books. The ACLU merely called to point this out. School district policy was changed, nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 I am one of those kids with a deadbeat dad, and there WERE father/daughter dances when I was young. Of course I didn't go. But I never once thought that others should have to miss out just because I happened to have a father that was a jerk. :iagree: my dad ran off with another woman two weeks before my birth (he then ran off with another woman DURING my half-sister's tenth birthday party). My mother was a thousand miles from family, so I had no grandpa or uncles. She never dated and never hung out with men. I had absolutely no male influence in my life. I never got to go to a daddy-daughter dance. Not with my own father or any other male. I'm okay. I survived. And I don't begrudge others the opportunity to have a special memory with their fathers/special male influences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 School athletes operate under the requirements of Title IX, which mandate equal opportunities for girls. That is a good thing. The ACLU has been a prime actor in making sure Title IX is enforced. The ACLUs action in this case is in the same spirit. It is a blow to gender discrimination. Imagine if schools had "boys only" Science Nights or other such things. If private groups want to sponsor Father-Daughter dances that is their prerogative. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 The ACLU appears to have a philosophical disagreement with the whole notion of father/daugher dances. A quote from one of the lawyers, "And it was resolved for a simple reason: the school district recognized that in the 21st Century, public schools have no business fostering the notion that girls prefer to go to formal dances while boys prefer baseball games. This type of gender stereotyping only perpetuates outdated notions of 'girl' and 'boy' activities and is contrary to federal law." ...even though federal allows gender descrimination exemptions for these very events so I'm not understanding how it is contrary to federal law. :confused: I think it is funny that even the reporter noted the snark in the lawyer's response. The article says the girl was prevented from attending but didn't say why. It doesn't say the girl tried to bring an uncle, grandfather, or other adult male in her life. If the girl doesn't have a positive male influence in her life, that's more sad to me than if she couldn't go to a dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Not quite. The law was already on the books. The ACLU merely called to point this out. School district policy was changed, nothing more. And it was ignored, like a bajillion obscure other laws that are on the books, because the local population decided they wanted to have them. And again, because it wasn't fair to one kid, and now the others have to suffer. In NYC slippers are not to be worn after 10 PM. I'm sure there are plenty of slipper wearers in NY who wear them after 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 School athletes operate under the requirements of Title IX, which mandate equal opportunities for girls. That is a good thing. The ACLU has been a prime actor in making sure Title IX is enforced. The ACLUs action in this case is in the same spirit. It is a blow to gender discrimination. Imagine if schools had "boys only" Science Nights or other such things. If private groups want to sponsor Father-Daughter dances that is their prerogative. Bill Gender discrimination is not having a mother son dance. Or offering a mother son activity. So are we all supposed to be genderless, or can we celebrate our genders? We have to be genderless parents, and have genderless children? It's one thing to be *fair*, it's another thing to wipe out anything that makes us different. I thought we were supposed to be celebrating diversity? Or, that's just for minorities, not for sexes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisbeth Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 You can't have parent-child outings, either, because some kids live with their grandparents. Can you even have dances when some kids are in wheelchairs? That is discrimination! Schools shouldn't have books, because the blind can't read them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 And it was ignored, like a bajillion obscure other laws that are on the books, because the local population decided they wanted to have them. And again, because it wasn't fair to one kid, and now the others have to suffer. In NYC slippers are not to be worn after 10 PM. I'm sure there are plenty of slipper wearers in NY who wear them after 10. I guess you and I have different definitions of obscure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Really, these are the types of things should not be sponsored with public monies. But, then, I don't think any school dance or purely entertainment for the sake of entertainment (no link to academic class/learning) type of event should be paid for on the public dole and especially in an economy in which schools are telling parents there won't be toilet paper in the building unless they provide it! :glare: Oh, yes...you guessed it...my local district (p.s. they raised the sports budget again, but fired eight teachers - yet, they will use tax dollars to pay for the decorations and food at the homecoming dance, but can't find money for T.P.!!!!!). Really, the tax dollars need to be about education and the federal laws on non-discrimination need to be followed. If the PTO wants to raise money to host it, then that is a different story. Faith Oh my goodness! :svengo: OK, for all of you saying the $ should be spent on education, my town just put in a million dollar football field (town HS) with lights that can be seen on the moon. HOW is that different? Oh fun, the passive aggressive taggers come out. I noticed that, too. I'm not sure who they are targeting, nor do I know who is supposed to be empathized with. Or why. :tongue_smilie: :lol: The ACLU appears to have a philosophical disagreement with the whole notion of father/daugher dances. A quote from one of the lawyers, "And it was resolved for a simple reason: the school district recognized that in the 21st Century, public schools have no business fostering the notion that girls prefer to go to formal dances while boys prefer baseball games.This type of gender stereotyping only perpetuates outdated notions of 'girl' and 'boy' activities and is contrary to federal law." ...even though federal allows gender descrimination exemptions for these very events so I'm not understanding how it is contrary to federal law. :confused: I think it is funny that even the reporter noted the snark in the lawyer's response. The article says the girl was prevented from attending but didn't say why. It doesn't say the girl tried to bring an uncle, grandfather, or other adult male in her life. If the girl doesn't have a positive male influence in her life, that's more sad to me than if she couldn't go to a dance. And... the bolded statement is what ticked me off. It's not about a dance to me. I mean, yes, this is. And yes, I can see where it isn't necessary and private facilities can hold these sorts of things, etc, etc. But I'm really annoyed with the whole notion of 'gender stereotyping' because I DO believe the genders are different. And I get really sick and tired and, honestly, p**sed off, when I see people like the ACLU (who I can't stand, btw) talk about gender as though it's nothing but a difference in body parts. :cursing: Sigh. :rant: That is all. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justLisa Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 :D It's about the school money, though. School money is spend in a gazillion ways that unfair, and plain old wrong. This mom was mad because she thought it wasn't fair, and she broke the whole thing for all of the other kids. I don't go around complaining that my kids can't play football because they're home schooled--yet I paid for that football field. No one is telling the town to raise other money for the field. I don't complain that my kid can't be prom king, or queen and be crowned at the homecoming game... So, where's it end? It's ridiculous. It's just telling your kid "you are not the same, so we need to complain about it so you can fit in to this fair, fair world." :glare: Losing a father is horrible. A dance is not the only time it is going to be horrible. But if *I* had a daughter without a father I would think I would find someone to go with or sit it out and do something special. Why make her feel worse and left out. There are many horrible things that happen to people to leave them out of things. I grew up with two cousins close in age. Boy/girl, and they had a sperm donor who raped them and was in prison for years. They lost their mother to illness inflicted by sperm donor. Talk about miserable? My parents both stepped in sometimes, as did the other aunts/uncles and if anything they felt MORE normal being able to attend functions with a parent figure. Sucky life happens sometimes. But telling your kid don't worry I'll just call up a lawyer is what is wrong with the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AimeeM Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 (edited) :iagree: Using public funds on gender specific activities starts down a slippery slope. Also: why not have a children-parent dance? This way, even the children of single parents may be able to participate. But... some children may not have parents :glare: Edited September 18, 2012 by AimeeM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 I guess you and I have different definitions of obscure. I bet we do. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 (edited) Gender discrimination is not having a mother son dance. Or offering a mother son activity. Of course it is. Any class of activity that excludes one gender from participation is "on its face" gender-discrimination. So are we all supposed to be genderless, or can we celebrate our genders? We have to be genderless parents, and have genderless children? No. You just don't have schools promote events that exclude one gender. Imagine "boys only" Science Night. It's one thing to be *fair*, it's another thing to wipe out anything that makes us different. I thought we were supposed to be celebrating diversity? Or, that's just for minorities, not for sexes? No differences are beng "wiped out." This is a strange argument. Imagine having dances for "one race only." That would not be a celebration of "diversity." Bill Edited September 19, 2012 by Spy Car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMA Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Look, at some of the schools up here the names of the dances were changed to sweetheart dances and the girls come with a male adult. They did this at my niece's private school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southernm Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 I think what bothers me most is that one person was able to cause such a controversy. Instead of voicing concerns with the school and school board, she brought in the ACLU. The article says that the PTO can still have the dance (which is what most schools do) but I'm sure it will never happen out of fear of retaliation from the ACLU. What school board wants to fight that organization? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 No differences are beng "wiped out." This is a strange argument. Imagine having dances for "one race only." That would not be a celebration of "diversity." Bill But it's not one race only--that's exactly my point. Being male encompasses a whole lotta males. Same with females. Mother, daughters, fathers, sons. To even the playing field, the ACLU is actually discriminating in favor of the one against the many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 But it's not one race only--that's exactly my point. Being male encompasses a whole lotta males. Same with females. Mother, daughters, fathers, sons. To even the playing field, the ACLU is actually discriminating in favor of the one against the many. You gave "race" as an example of celebrating "diversity." Followng that line of analogy one would not have dances for one race only and call that a celebration of diversity. Likewise having a dance for one gender only is not a "celebration of diversity." It is gender discrimination plain and simple. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Personally, I don't think ANY public school funds should go for anything outside of classes. Not sports. Not dances. Not pep rallies. Nada. If the community wants those things, the community can make it happen with their own funds and volunteers off site. I never would have gone to a father/daughter dance. There was never any males in my life to take me. For that matter, my daughters don't either. They have a father who travels lots and teen brothers. That's it. I suppose a brother could take them. But our society is twisted sick stupid about males associating with girls, especially minors, so that could feel socially uncomfortable or be outright frowned upon by some people. I have no issue whatsoever with father/daughter dances or mother/son ball games. I just don't think that is where public education $ should be spent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 :iagree::iagree: America has turned into the Borg, and we are becoming assimilated. I wouldn't have been able to go. But you know what, it's not fair that MY not being able to should shut down the fun for all of the others, BEcause of ME, the rest would be deprived of a sweet memory with their fathers. This is the equivalent of giving everyone a trophy for participating. Can you explain this more? How is this an example of being "borg" like? And secondly, do you assume the girl (or her mother) desired for no one else to have the dance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Yes, I saw that and it made me sad. I don't see why one single mother had to ruin it for everyone else. It said that the law had special exemptions for just that sort of thing, but it wasn't in the general part of the laws. It's important to keep the slippery slope greased so everyone can play on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Look, at some of the schools up here the names of the dances were changed to sweetheart dances and the girls come with a male adult. They did this at my niece's private school. For nearly 40 years, the private school my sons attended held Grandparents Day. Appropriately, in the late 80's, they changed it to Grand Friends Day. No harm, no foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 No differences are beng "wiped out." This is a strange argument. Imagine having dances for "one race only." That would not be a celebration of "diversity." Bill According to the usual suspects, that would be fine as long as only a few kids were excluded. It's just like having a football field! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 I think what bothers me most is that one person was able to cause such a controversy. Instead of voicing concerns with the school and school board, she brought in the ACLU. The article says that the PTO can still have the dance (which is what most schools do) but I'm sure it will never happen out of fear of retaliation from the ACLU. What school board wants to fight that organization? How do you know which steps were were followed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 I think what bothers me most is that one person was able to cause such a controversy. Instead of voicing concerns with the school and school board, she brought in the ACLU. The article says that the PTO can still have the dance (which is what most schools do) but I'm sure it will never happen out of fear of retaliation from the ACLU. What school board wants to fight that organization?Assuming what you say is true, how does any of that affect the validity of her position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southernm Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 How do you know which steps were were followed? I don't. However, when I read this line from a story about it: "The parent felt it was not appropriate and filed a complaint with the ACLU,†she said. The American Civil Liberties Union sent a letter to the district demanding that all father-daughter and mother-son events be cancelled." I read it just as stated. If the school board had debated the issue I bet they could have found a compromise. I would think that if her complaint had gone through proper channels, it would have been mentioned in the various articles published. Knowing the way school boards work, the woman complained to ACLU. ACLU fired off a letter, school board cancelled it without a second thought in fear of the ACLU and its power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 The article was intended to be partisan in nature. That's my issue: rile up the people. Burn now, ask questions later. I don't. However, when I read this line from a story about it: "The parent felt it was not appropriate and filed a complaint with the ACLU,” she said. The American Civil Liberties Union sent a letter to the district demanding that all father-daughter and mother-son events be cancelled." I read it just as stated. If the school board had debated the issue I bet they could have found a compromise. I would think that if her complaint had gone through proper channels, it would have been mentioned in the various articles published. Knowing the way school boards work, the woman complained to ACLU. ACLU fired off a letter, school board cancelled it without a second thought in fear of the ACLU and its power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Mom had a hissy fit about the dance, and boom, there was a law made. No, you have it backwards. Mom complained, and they were reminded that there had been a state law prohibiting this the whole time - just nobody cared to follow it. Big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southernm Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Assuming what you say is true, how does any of that affect the validity of her position? Doesn't affect it. Did I say it did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Gender discrimination is not having a mother son dance. Or offering a mother son activity. Or a mother/daughter or father/son dance :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 I don't. However, when I read this line from a story about it: "The parent felt it was not appropriate and filed a complaint with the ACLU,†she said. The American Civil Liberties Union sent a letter to the district demanding that all father-daughter and mother-son events be cancelled." I read it just as stated. If the school board had debated the issue I bet they could have found a compromise. I would think that if her complaint had gone through proper channels, it would have been mentioned in the various articles published. Knowing the way school boards work, the woman complained to ACLU. ACLU fired off a letter, school board cancelled it without a second thought in fear of the ACLU and its power. Who is "she" in that quote? Considering the articles are short and focused on the actual banning and the involvement of the ACLU, I wouldn't expect the articles to mention every step the mother followed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Doesn't affect it. Did I say it did?But why does it matter if it is one person complaining or a hundred if her point is valid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 No, you have it backwards. Mom complained, and they were reminded that there had been a state law prohibiting this the whole time - just nobody cared to follow it. Big difference. There you again. With facts and all.:lurk5: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 :iagree: Really, these are the types of things should not be sponsored with public monies. But, then, I don't think any school dance or purely entertainment for the sake of entertainment (no link to academic class/learning) type of event should be paid for on the public dole... Really, the tax dollars need to be about education and the federal laws on non-discrimination need to be followed. If the PTO wants to raise money to host it, then that is a different story. :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southernm Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 But why does it matter if it is one person complaining or a hundred if her point is valid? I don't believe her point is valid. They could have just as easily had a mother/son; parent/child dance. Compromises could have been made. I have to agree with justamouse. It seems like one parent threw a hissy fit and ruined it for everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 They could have just as easily had a mother/son; parent/child dance. Compromises could have been made. . But that is exactly the point: they did not. They based the participation in a publicly funded activity solely on gender. Had it been a parents/children dance, there would have been no issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 I don't believe her point is valid. They could have just as easily had a mother/son; parent/child dance. Compromises could have been made. I have to agree with justamouse. It seems like one parent threw a hissy fit and ruined it for everyone else. So as long as one person is discriminated against, its okay? Why didn't they just make it a parent/child dance from the start? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 So as long as one person is discriminated against, its okay?Why didn't they just make it a parent/child dance from the start? For pity's sake, how is a father/daughter dance discrimination?? :rolleyes: Give me a break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 For pity's sake, how is a father/daughter dance discrimination?? . Because the law states that no publicly funded activity can exclude participants based on gender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma2three Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 I don't believe her point is valid. They could have just as easily had a mother/son; parent/child dance. Compromises could have been made. I have to agree with justamouse. It seems like one parent threw a hissy fit and ruined it for everyone else. But the point is that they didn't have those things. They had a father/daughter dance, that this girl couldn't attend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 For pity's sake, how is a father/daughter dance discrimination?? :rolleyes: Give me a break. A child without a father wasn't allowed to attend. Seems pretty clear cut, but hey, it was just one kid and all. She should have just sucked it up. That is a much better solution than creating an event that welcomes all students at the school.:001_huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southernm Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 But that is exactly the point: they did not. They based the participation in a publicly funded activity solely on gender. Had it been a parents/children dance, there would have been no issue. I agree that the problem would have been solved by a parent/child dance. I just can't understand why a school board would rather the ACLU get involved then make changes on their own (unless they were not approached to begin with). So now there is no dance for anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 I agree that the problem would have been solved by a parent/child dance. I just can't understand why a school board would rather the ACLU get involved then make changes on their own (unless they were not approached to begin with). So now there is no dance for anyone. Nothing prevents the school from holding a parent/child dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma2three Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 I agree that the problem would have been solved by a parent/child dance. I just can't understand why a school board would rather the ACLU get involved then make changes on their own (unless they were not approached to begin with). So now there is no dance for anyone. They can still have a dance. They just can't say that only girls and dads can attend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Because the law states that no publicly funded activity can exclude participants based on gender. Calling it discrimination still seems overly inflammatory to me. It's not like they were sitting there in their offices at the school saying, 'Ooh, let's do the father/daughter dance even though there are kids who can't attend. Especially ____. We don't like girls who don't have dads, so we don't care if it bothers her or makes her feel left out!' I'm not saying that in retrospect it was the best thing to do. But people getting all up in arms about so-called discrimination is silly. ETA: Did the article say she was the only girl without a dad? Because that would shock me, honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southernm Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 A child without a father wasn't allowed to attend. Seems pretty clear cut, but hey, it was just one kid and all. She should have just sucked it up. That is a much better solution than creating an event that welcomes all students at the school.:001_huh: Can you link the article that says the child was not allowed to attend specifically without her father? Where does it say another male figure would not be able to escort her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tohru Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 It said that federal law had exemptions, but that RI's state laws did not have exemptions. Personally, I don't understand why a public school would be hosting father/daughter or mother/son events in the first place- because this is what they were talking about, not at a private event. I have no problem with private entities hosting those kind of events, but I have to agree with the single mom on this one. Even when my parents were married, I would have been excluded from this event because my father is a giant pr!ck, and would not have attended an event like this with me. :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma2three Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Can you link the article that says the child was not allowed to attend specifically without her father? Where does it say another male figure would not be able to escort her? Can you find something that says it was allowed? All of the articles I'm finding (an AP one reprinted many places, and a few smaller local papers) are just reporting that the girl hadn't been allowed to attend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 And on a side note, if it's discrimination to do a father/daughter dance that some people would not be able to attend, wouldn't it be discrimination in the private arena, as well? Just a thought. Discrimination in one place should be defined the same everywhere, shouldn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OH_Homeschooler Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Can you link the article that says the child was not allowed to attend specifically without her father? Where does it say another male figure would not be able to escort her? The posted article that launched this thread says she was prevented from attending without her dad. Did you actually read it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OH_Homeschooler Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 (edited) And on a side note, if it's discrimination to do a father/daughter dance that some people would not be able to attend, wouldn't it be discrimination in the private arena, as well? Just a thought. Discrimination in one place should be defined the same everywhere, shouldn't it? But discrimination should not be publicly funded. Based on Boy Scouts rules, my boy cannot join. I wish he could but we can't claim a faith in their god. So fine, it's a private organization. I won't buy their popcorn but I'm not calling for boy scouts to be shut down. Way different. It IS discrimination based on the most basic definition of the word, but i'm not forced to support it. Edited September 19, 2012 by OH_Homeschooler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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