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Article-Poisioned Ivies (universities) (CC?)


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I don't know if I should put CC on this or not.

 

Now, I knew it was bad, and I'm no ostrich, but I really had no idea how bad it was. Even in my wildly liberal days, I never would have promoted this as healthy.

 

Poisoned Ivies A review and article on the book Sex and God at Yale.

 

I just want to point out that both the author of the book, and the author of the article, are meaning these to be clarion calls to the schools to go back to thier higher purpose. Not some sort of close them down and shut the doors type thing--which I think is a great idea (to change them).

Edited by justamouse
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I visited a college (not an ivy) with someone who was moving in to the dorms in 1995, and they had coed bathrooms.

 

Wendy Shalit, who is an observant Jew, attended Williams in the mid-90s and generated a lot of fury with her irritation about having to cope with men (in the form of boyfriends/sex partners) staying in her dorm room with her roommate for days on end, and in the bathrooms. She wrote a book about it in A Return to Modesty.

 

I remember going on a tour of Wellesley (a women's college, mind you) when I was in twelfth grade, in the early 90s, and also was given a friendly pep talk by the admissions officer about how men could use the bathrooms and stay over in the dorms for three nights. I was rather appalled and (for other reasons, mostly financial) did not attend so I never explored or experienced this further.

 

There were four Orthodox Jewish students who sued....some college, I can't remember which... for mandating freshmen live in the dorms, and all the dorms were coed. Three students were male, and one female; it is my understanding that the young woman had a religious marriage in order to exempt herself from the requirement but I don't know what the men did. This was also in the 90s as I recall.

 

So I guess I am trying to say, what's new? I think it is certainly one thing to try to stop sexually transmitted diseases and infections, but I am even more appalled by the "No means yes! Yes means anal" chanting at Yale by frat pledges two years ago. The fact that rape, sexual abuse, and alcohol -induced confusion has taken over is even more troubling to me than any rosy eyed vision of free love. Creating a culture of sexual trauma for female students in order to keep the young men suitably entertained is demeaning to both sexes, and that seems plenty common these days.

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My gosh, the more I read about this kind of thing, the most I feel like instead of giving DD a college education we should just buy her a little cottage somewhere (probably thus saving some money) and encourage her to pursue her writing on her own. Without the cost of housing, she wouldn't have to work all that much to get by. This kind of thing is so exasperating in its utter pervasive misguidedness.

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Here's the thing: I have trouble with the credibility of this piece, since it discusses as "fact" an incident that has been proven not to be true.

 

Aliza Shvarts was never pregnant, and the art she produced was tested and shown to contain no human blood. The entire "project" was performance art intended to provoke discussion, which it appears it did.

 

As the author repeatedly points out, this campus has a long tradition and established reputation for being "out there" when it comes to sexual themes. There are plenty of other schools that don't. Prospective students should do their research.

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Why can't they also have female only and male only dorms for those that have objections (religious or not) to coed dorms?

 

They do indeed have such things.

 

Please don't let this article or this book convince you that college in general or the Ivy League in particular is a den of iniquity. Mostly they are dens of very stressed-out overachievers who are trying to find their way in life. Co-ed dorms were already de rigueur when I was in school, but it was mostly like living with a lot of very dorky brothers and sisters.

 

Yes, there is sex on campus, but considering that college students are all adults, I personally believe that's both legal and expected.

Edited by kubiac
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My thoughts exactly. Maybe dd has it right when she says she wants to homeschool college.

 

 

Ewwwwwww:willy_nilly::ack2::angry:

 

What the heck? Especially the part about the classics majors (which my daughter may well be) putting their Latin to good use in the Latin-named (sexual fetish) club.

 

Ugh.

 

I'll be investigating the colleges a bit more closely.

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They do indeed have such things.

 

Please don't let this article or this book convince you that college in general or the Ivy League in particular is a den of iniquity. Mostly they are dens of very stressed-out overachievers who are trying to find their way in life. Co-ed dorms were already de rigueur when I was in school, but it was mostly like living with a lot of very dorky brothers and sisters.

 

Yes, there is sex on campus, but considering that college students are all adults, I personally believe that's both legal and expected.

Legal, yes. Expected by some, sure. Necessary to have to deal with a roommate's sex life and naked or half naked partners hanging about, no; go get a hotel room for that kind of thing or park your car somewhere off a country road.

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Here's the thing: I have trouble with the credibility of this piece, since it discusses as "fact" an incident that has been proven not to be true.

 

Aliza Shvarts was never pregnant, and the art she produced was tested and shown to contain no human blood. The entire "project" was performance art intended to provoke discussion, which it appears it did.

 

As the author repeatedly points out, this campus has a long tradition and established reputation for being "out there" when it comes to sexual themes. There are plenty of other schools that don't. Prospective students should do their research.

 

Yale has a stake in insisting it was not true. Her current info says it is. Even if she didn't succeed in getting pregnant and inducing abortions for an art project, it doesn't lessen my horror that she either tried or claimed to try. (It seems Yale may have coerced her into saying the project wasn't real when it may have been.) If "Yale" says there was a blood test, does that mean there was a blood test?

 

Doesn't seem as though Ivy League schools are anything to strive for if this is the culture.

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I hate to date myself. It's been many years since I graduated from college (oldest is 23), and even 'back then' my dorm was coed. It had been coverted from a old hotel, so each room did have a private bath.

 

I thought the abortion/art was performance art, and was shown to contain no human blood. That's a story that went viral, but ended up being wrong. (Shocking, huh?)

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Doesn't seem as though Ivy League schools are anything to strive for if this is the culture.

 

The thing is though that we should WANT them to succeed. They are stars in the US crown, we should want them to be shining examples of a liberal arts education, where the best students are formed into adults that make our country a better place.

 

To lose them to Mordor would be truly sad.

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My dd's college is not like this. SHe visited another college in the South that she had soured on very much on that visit and I have since read that this former Baptist college is going the way of Columbia and Yale with its attitudes. She was in a co-ed dorm but it was all suites and no sharing of bathrooms or any other rooms.

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The thing is though that we should WANT them to succeed. They are stars in the US crown, we should want them to be shining examples of a liberal arts education, where the best students are formed into adults that make our country a better place.

 

To lose them to Mordor would be truly sad.

 

I think the university culture is an extension of the rest of modern youth culture (and it goes beyond youth, but is perhaps not quite as bad the older you get). Ours is a culture that won't be reviving itself anytime soon.

 

It will require Divine Intervention to turn it around.

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I hate to date myself. It's been many years since I graduated from college (oldest is 23), and even 'back then' my dorm was coed. It had been coverted from a old hotel, so each room did have a private bath.

 

I thought the abortion/art was performance art, and was shown to contain no human blood. That's a story that went viral, but ended up being wrong. (Shocking, huh?)

 

But that's what I mean, my old liberal self would be non-plussed at that. But it's become so much more than that. That seems to be the least of the offenses to the honor of the institution.

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I hate to date myself. It's been many years since I graduated from college (oldest is 23), and even 'back then' my dorm was coed. It had been coverted from a old hotel, so each room did have a private bath.

 

I thought the abortion/art was performance art, and was shown to contain no human blood. That's a story that went viral, but ended up being wrong. (Shocking, huh?)

 

Not that it matters either way, but if I were the Yale spokespeople I would definitely say that. The student however, is not saying that.

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There was a time, not so long ago when colleges, especially the Ivies, were males only. You think some of those boys from prep schools weren't drinking to pass out, or paying for prostitutes, or taking advantage of women?

 

I don't like to think about young people doing dangerous things, or constantly 'hooking up.' I think some behaviors are wrong, but there isn't much new, really.

 

More than anything, I think the author knows what will sell.

Edited by LibraryLover
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There was a time, not so long ago when colleges, especially the Ivies, were males only. You think some of those rich boys from prep schools weren't drinking to pass out, or paying for prostitutes, or taking advantage of women?

 

I don't like to think about young people doing dangerous things, or constantly 'hooking up.' I think some behaviors are wrong, but there isn't much new, really.

 

I think it's new that college students in general seem not to date or have relationships, the common option is the hookup. There was a lot of sleeping around when I was in college, but most of it was in the context of relationships. Also the university sanctioning of some of these sexuality-themed events seems new. The ubiquitiousness of pornography. There's nothing new about sexual activity on college campuses, but the type, extent and crassness of it all seem excessive.

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As the author repeatedly points out, this campus has a long tradition and established reputation for being "out there" when it comes to sexual themes. There are plenty of other schools that don't. Prospective students should do their research.

 

:iagree:

 

Anyone considering college should do their research about individual schools. They are not all the same. My boys love where they go. The dorms are co-ed (they were back in the dark ages when I went to college too), but there is no sharing of bathrooms nor co-ed rooms. When I asked one student about the bathroom bit on a visit, he seemed horrified to think bathrooms could be co-ed. That was a nice plus for the school in our book. ;)

 

FTR, middle son eliminated Yale from consideration of places to apply to due to their reputation as per the article. It simply wasn't what he wanted. He loves where he is now. Sure, some students shack up (it's always been that way and don't think Christian colleges are any different), but there are many who don't. Find your crowd. But yes, pick schools intelligently...

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I take it with a grain of salt. There is a book like this about Duke also. Campus ministries and local churches are doing well on some of these campuses... I don't believe any college campus is automatically corrupting. I'm hopeful my children would thrive anywhere...

Edited by LNC
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Not that it matters either way, but if I were the Yale spokespeople I would definitely say that. The student however, is not saying that.

 

Actually, she did . . . and then didn't . . . and then did again.

 

The whole thing, as I understand it, from the proposal for the project to the visual art she created, was designed to provoke reactions and discussions. The point wasn't the visual stuff, but the performance.

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I think it's new that college students in general seem not to date or have relationships, the common option is the hookup. .

 

:confused:

Beware of generalizations. I work on a college campus. State university, not small Christian college. Plenty of students are in dating relationships, many of which lead to marriage immediately upon graduation, or even before.

I do not think students hooking up is a) the general norm and b) newsworthy.

 

the author of the book knows what sells. A book about the academic excellence of said institutions would not have a fraction of the buyers.

Edited by regentrude
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Sex sells. Obviously it even works here on this board. Fearmongering-beware of the college kids who only hookup and do not date! Beware of the crazy art shows! Beware of the elites! Buy my book and learn the truth! As for homeschooling your kid through college? (and not meaning he just lives at home and goes to a local uni?) Are you serious? When will they be old enough to go out in the big world and learn their own life lessons?

 

Yes, and? No one here said to sequester them, I don't believe any of us *don't* want our kids to go to college, it's not a surprise to many of us, but the *depth* of the problem is.

 

No one was fear mongering. That would say that ALL universities are bad, don't send your kids to college for fear that they be corrupted.

 

And, you completely discount the pp who said that they went to one of the universities, and they wouldn't send their kid there because it article was so true.

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Honestly, I bet the majority of you would send your child there if they were ever accepted, because like it or not, it puts those graduates a step up than many other places.

 

 

Do you have any stats to back up your statement? When middle son (tippy top stats) was selecting schools to apply to we investigated many avenues and/or perceived paths including Ivies and, with the exception of Wall Street banking (not something he was remotely interested in), we did not find any "step up" due to coming from an Ivy school in reality. Outside of the northeast the perceived "prestige" even lessens with rare exceptions.

 

Instead, we found that those who succeeded in their field came from a huge variety of undergrad institutions... and it seemed to vary more with the personality (and sometimes wealth of the family) of the person than any school they attended.

 

I would love to see stats that showed anything different. I came up empty - hence - another reason my guy opted not to even apply to any Ivies. Instead, he opted to find a school that fit him really well and he knows he can go literally anywhere (pending his drive and direction) when he graduates - just as other grads have done.

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Actually, she did . . . and then didn't . . . and then did again.

 

The whole thing, as I understand it, from the proposal for the project to the visual art she created, was designed to provoke reactions and discussions. The point wasn't the visual stuff, but the performance.

 

Further, the 'art' was never on display. Ever, anywhere. Yale did not 'allow' it. I don't believe such a project ever existed. The performance art was media frenzy.

 

She graduated. That means her thesis/project was accepted. You can say the professors 'knew' about it, and thrash them, which is what happened. I think they 'allowed' the project to be media frenzy, so she probably got an A+.

Edited by LibraryLover
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They do indeed have such things.

 

At some colleges, at some points in time, all students were mandated to live on campus in coed housing.

 

I think it's a bit much to say "hooking up" is only some fringe activity.

 

[Paula England's] latest data finds that by senior year, 72% of both sexes reported having at least one hookup, with the average of 9.7 for men and 7.1 for women. Just under one-quarter (24%) of seniors say they are virgins, she says.

From USA Today, March 2011

 

So, while it may not be clear in all studies, it's certainly not "fringe." In fact, it is the assumption on the part of most students that that is what people are doing, so while it may be exaggerated, plenty of students think that is what their peers are doing, and it is accepted as normal. More disturbingly to me is how normal sexual assault has become.

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I have had two children attend Harvard, and I have one at Princeton. We have not found this type of environment AT ALL. Of course hooking up goes on, but you also have many students from other, more conservative countries who have worked hard to get there and wouldn't dare dishonor their parents. The environment is much more conducive to serious study than what you'd find at your average state school. My kids have been part of the Christian Fellowship and have been able to find like-minded friends who want to have fun without being immoral. They hang out together and hold each other accountable.

 

My daughter at Princeton is in a co-ed dorm, but her wing is all girls. Students jokingly refer to it as "the nunnery." My kids at Harvard were also in co-ed dorms, but they always had suites (single-sex) with their own bathroom. It's more like an apartment without the kitchen than a dorm room.

 

Don't discount all the Ivies because of one article sensationalizing immorality at Yale.

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Don't discount all the Ivies because of one article sensationalizing immorality at Yale.

 

I am willing to bet my life that bad things/ immorality happens on every single college campus the world over.

 

At any rate, while I don't condone everything, immorality is a ginormous umbrella.

 

Btw, I don't believe two professors at Yale would have accepted Shvarts' thesis. Even the most liberal profs I know would have referred her to mental health services.

 

None of the Ivy-graduated/attending people I know are depraved.

 

Consider that this book/article is political.

Edited by LibraryLover
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How in the world do we get to bashing Ivy League colleges because of one article. Honestly, I bet the majority of you would send your child there if they were ever accepted, because like it or not, it puts those graduates a step up than many other places. Do you seriously think there is no sex between students at religious colleges? Do you think state universities are any different? Co ed does not equal sex, at least not to this generation, thank god.

I think if we the country can make it through the next couple decades, this place will be so much better off, because the young adults of today seem so much more together than their elders, with no fear of other cultures, alternate lifestyles, or the dangers of viewing things in black and white only. There will always be nuts, but hopefully people are smart enough to deal with them without going overboard.

It seems like every piece of popular news is National Enquirer-worthy, yet we jump on it like it's always 100 % TRUE!

 

Sex sells. Obviously it even works here on this board. Fearmongering-beware of the college kids who only hookup and do not date! Beware of the crazy art shows! Beware of the elites! Buy my book and learn the truth! As for homeschooling your kid through college? (and not meaning he just lives at home and goes to a local uni?) Are you serious? When will they be old enough to go out in the big world and learn their own life lessons?

 

I'm not so shocked about students having sex at college as I am repulsed by the idea of random, casual, anonymous, meaningless sex. And the idea that the university promotes such behavior really bothers me. The university should be focusing on the students' academic education and career placement, not what goes on or doesn't in their bedrooms.

 

Regarding whether the country will be better off in a couple of decades due to the current college students' lack of fears and more open minds, I'm not expecting much. Many will be crippled by a staggering load of educational debt and required to function in a society that has mortgaged its future. Besides, I remember being encouraged to open my mind and expand my horizons at college way back in the early 1980's. And as an adult, I can look back and see all the manipulation and abuse that was being cloaked in those platitudes.

 

My dh works at a university and we have quite a bit of contact with a number of students who work in his department or through various social events. And while most try hard to project an image of having it together, a lot have confided to me privately that they consider themselves to be hanging by a thread.

 

Why do you think sex sells here on this site? I have no plans to buy the book reviewed, nor to send my child to a university based solely on their student sexual behavior policies. So apparently I haven't bought into anything of the sort. My dd is being encouraged to branch out into the world at a pace that is both practical and healthy. When she reaches college age, she will most likely move into a dorm and complete her education. But I certainly won't discriminate against any one who has chosen a different path and remained at home during their education. Isn't that what tolerance is all about?

Edited by hillfarm
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Actually, she did . . . and then didn't . . . and then did again.

 

The whole thing, as I understand it, from the proposal for the project to the visual art she created, was designed to provoke reactions and discussions. The point wasn't the visual stuff, but the performance.

 

The university insisted that she say the work was fictitious, and she did so. However, they did not dispay it anyway -- and why not, if they were certain it was fictitious? In any case, her latest statement that I was able to see is that she did indeed attempt to inseminate herself (may or may not have succeeded), then did attempt to induce miscarriages, and got some blood (but no definite proof that these were indeed miscarraiges). So if she isn't *sure* neither is/was the university. I suppose the truth will never be known, but the story can't definitively be labeled untrue. Yale's denial came on the heels of the controversy, so it seems self-serving for them to declare the whole thing fictitious when in fact they were pressuring her to say exactly that.

 

If her intent was merely to "provoke reaction," that was never made clear to her adviser. Even if it was important to keep that secret from the university at large, there was no reason to conceal that from the adviser. Her bio at the NYU website describes the Yale project as something she did, not as something she pretended to do.

 

Aliza Shvarts Bio

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  • 4 weeks later...

Another Poisoned Ivy sample, for an upcoming party. This story was featured in a number of conservative publications.

 

 

 

At least one student at Harvard University is expressing outrage over the name of “In*cest-Fest,†a hook-up dance to be held at the university’s famous Kirkland House dormitory this winter.

 

 

 

The event, described in the Kirkland House Wikipedia entry, is an annual “debaucherous dance open only to [male and female] members of the house.â€

 

 

 

“You’ll spend all of Secret Santa week watching underclad men gyrating in the dining hall and figuring out who you’ll hook up with at Incest Fest,†it reads. “[H]ouse life is incredibly close-knit, bordering on downright in*cestuous.

 

Student Speaks Out Over Harvard Hook-Up Party :glare:

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I kind of agree with Erma Bombeck on this (link is to a column from 1973-so this is hardly a NEW thing). In many ways, I think that separating genders makes causal sex more likely, not less.

 

I was in a co-ed fraternity in college that regularly had lock-ins, camping trips, and so on. And you know what? I can't think of a single "hook-up" within that group at the time (although I know of several marriages that resulted after college-mine included, although DH and I were in different chapters at different undergrad schools). The reason was that we WERE so close together that it would have felt wrong at the time-we were "brothers", and you don't date your "brother". And, FWIW, as a college professor, I still get that same impression. You can have an entire college marching band, who spend hours together every week on the field, spent hours together overnight on buses going to games, and generally are changing clothes right in each others' faces, and when they get back to the hotels at an away game, all that happens is sleep.

 

 

Maybe it's different in the new dorms (some of the ones I've seen look more like apartments), but when I was in college we were essentially living on top of each other. I could tell who was in the shower by the smell of their shampoo when I walked into the communal bathroom to brush my teeth. We knew who was menstruating. We knew who had broken up with her boyfriend. We knew who was sleeping with her boyfriend. Heck, if you were dumb enough to bring a guy home, the entire DORM knew it within minutes, because sound carried. And doing so was about like bringing one home and having to face your annoying siblings at the breakfast table the next day, and knowing that it was going to be all over your school within minutes.

 

College is a different world-and yes, TeA is part of it. But it's a lot less a part of it than the media would like you to believe.

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My dh and I attended college in the early to mid nineties. He left the apartment he shared with his frat-boy roommate because of the parties and constant parade of girls. Roommate was in and out of ROTC and school for a few years before he finally graduated. He got out of the army after being dumped from Ranger school. He now works in pharmaceutical sales, is on his third wife, and is generally the same person he was then. Yes, college can be one big party. But, in my experience, there are far more students who do a full schedule of classes, work full time jobs and are stressed beyond belief due to their workload. I don't believe this is the norm now any more than it was then.

 

And what *sells* is sensationalism. Always. Don't fall for it.

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I think what is "the norm" has changed. :)

 

I am the oldest grandchild on both sides of my family. My younger cousins are all in college. They are not in frats or sororities. They are hard-working scholarship students. We have had discussions about these things. So, I disagree. I think the only thing that has changed is perception.

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