A WWS1 question, having a hard time

[dancer67]

We are only on Day 3. My daughter seems to be having A LOT of trouble picking out the 5 to 6 sentences out of the story. Plus, the book says to narrate it back first, then write it.

 

Well, I have had to prompt her with the questions that are given in the TM. And, when she went to tell me the story outloud, it sounded good. But she got frustrated when she went to write the combined 3 sentences. She forgot what she said. So instead, she just writes the 3 sentences and doesn't bother to day it outloud.

 

Is that ok? Is it a neccesity for her to tell me the three sentences outloud prior to writing it?

 

And how can I get her to determine what are the most important sentences for her to write out of the story without me prompting her?

[Kim C]

We are only on Day 3. My daughter seems to be having A LOT of trouble picking out the 5 to 6 sentences out of the story. Plus, the book says to narrate it back first, then write it.

 

Well, I have had to prompt her with the questions that are given in the TM. And, when she went to tell me the story outloud, it sounded good. But she got frustrated when she went to write the combined 3 sentences. She forgot what she said. So instead, she just writes the 3 sentences and doesn't bother to day it outloud.

 

Is that ok? Is it a neccesity for her to tell me the three sentences outloud prior to writing it?

 

And how can I get her to determine what are the most important sentences for her to write out of the story without me prompting her?

 

I think it's OK for her to write without first telling you the sentences aloud. I think you have to adjust the curriculum to fit your child. For some kids, summarizing aloud first helps them, but it may not help your daughter. It might help to talk to her about why she chose to just write 3 sentences and skip telling them to you first.

 

Being able to pick out the most important sentences without prompts from you will come with experience. My ds 11 and I started WWS a couple of weeks ago and the first week was quite stressful. He did not have much experience with narrations, so it was hard for him and stressful for both of us. Did your daughter do WWE? We did not so I bought WWE 3 so we can practice narrations so it will become easier for him.

 

Kim

[Chrysalis Academy]

Yes, I was going to suggest that maybe you get Writing With Ease: Strong Fundamentals, the TM that goes with the WWE program. In it are some sample narration exercises from WWE 3 & WWE 4. You could have your dd do those exercises for practice; the ability to pick out the main points will come with practice, and it's pretty essential to all that will follow in WWS. Also I think reading through the philosophy of writing instruction in this book is really helpful; it helps you to understand (and trust) the process that is being laid out.

 

I for one am *really* looking forward to the TM for WWS, that I understand will come out at some point . . . I think it will help us struggle through some of these lessons, if we can see the big picture of what we are working toward and how all the pieces fit.

 

In the meantime, I would counsel moving forward, but at whatever pace you need to - don't, for heaven's sakes, feel like you have to do 4 lessons a week! Almost everyone who has posted here has taken two days to do some lessons, or spent extra time working with their dc on the skills. You are not alone!

[PeterPan]

Call me crazy, but SWB said it was supposed to be independent. Even though it says narration, I don't think we're supposed to be there listening to sentences or expecting elegant narrations like they did in K5, etc. Any time she says to read them out loud, I take it as more of a read back what you wrote and figure out if it was logical. And yes, my dd would totally lose all her thoughts if she had to do it like you're describing.

 

My dd tends to do this bullet-like hyper-summarizing when she doesn't give a rip. To me those narration exercises are in that category. They aren't meant to turn out glorious stuff (and won't when the kid doesn't care about it). I highlight in the lesson the required points, make sure she writes them in her notebook, and move on. As long as the words get on the page, we MOVE ON. Seriously. I think it says to have them jot their 5-6 phrases (that's say step 2 after reading in step 1), then it says in step 3 to combine those. I have her write her step 2 phrases, then I have her write the step 3. I expect to see both steps but beyond that I don't care. It's just not that interesting for some kids to do more.

 

BTW, when I was working ahead on my highlighting, I noticed that in the next week or two (I forget), you dump the narrations. This won't go on forever. Just get through it. As long as she can look at it and pick out the major points, just get through it. If she can't do that, then it's time to back up to WWE or do some outlining the way WTM recommends. We did some outlining last year with Muse magazine articles, and that was good for helping structure click in her mind. But don't be too picky. She's older, and I'll bet it comes.

[dancer67]

We never did WWE. And we never did narrations. Even though when she looked at the book when it first came in and said "this is SO easy", she has quickly changed her tune.

 

Oh my goodness, I am so glad we are not supposed to do one lesson per day because this next one is taking us a little longer. But she seems to be picking out the correct sentences/phrases( the 5 or 6) to get them put into 3 or 4 sentences.

 

I think the lightbulb is coming on. I wish my 19 yo learned how to summarize like this prior to College because she is having a hard time with writing. Her high school never taught them a lot of writing.

 

And I can't see a 5th grader doing WWS1. It is even challenging to me. And there is no way I could see a child doing this independently.

 

I will say, that *I* am learning quite a bit this year myself. It is challenging, but it is a good kind of challenge, not a frustrating, want to throw the book across the room kind of challenge.

 

Thanks ladies.:grouphug:

[Chrysalis Academy]

My 5th grader is doing it, but it's rarely independent!! :glare: :D. And we'll take at least 1 1/2 years to get 'er done! We moved on because she really (really) got narrations and dictations, and was getting bored, ready for a greater challenge. Um, yeah, this is it! ;)

[Nakia]

We are almost done with WWS1, and from what I can tell the point of narration is twofold. Number one, to make sure they understand what they are reading/hearing, and number two, to teach them to take notes on what they are reading/hearing.

 

I wouldn't be concerned with her writing down the sentences without narrating them aloud to you. The point is that she understands what she's reading.

 

As far as the prompts, I'd just keep using them for now; that's why SWB included them. Eventually your dd won't need the prompts.

 

FWIW, my daughter NEVER got dictation. It was causing us to go nuts, so we dropped it. I don't think a child has to do everything exactly as written to become a successful writer. Don't let the curriculum control you. If you had told me a year ago that my daughter would be writing a 450 word biographical sketch with a personal description, about Marie Antionette, from three sources, I would have fallen over and died. But she did, and she did a fantastic job!

[Nakia]

I also wanted to repeat something I posted on Halycon's recent WWS thread. There are some "weeks" that will simply take longer than a week to complete. It's better to slow down and have them really get it than to push for them to get it done in 4 days. I know you might not be there yet, but I wanted to plant that seed. :D Hang in there! It's a great curriculum!!

[dancer67]

So I have a question, as she is reading should she be taking notes? Or is she supposed to read the whole story and go back in and pick out the 5 or 6 most important sentences/phrases?

 

Thanks for all the support and advice:grouphug:

[Nakia]

For now, she should be reading and then writing the summary. The note taking comes later.

[PeterPan]

So I have a question, as she is reading should she be taking notes? Or is she supposed to read the whole story and go back in and pick out the 5 or 6 most important sentences/phrases?

 

Thanks for all the support and advice:grouphug:

 

When they're learning how to narrate, it's helpful to do some steps to lead them into it. WWE has them learn by using SHORT sources. You're jumping in with both feet. So one thing you can have her do is read it and then *draw a picture* of what she read. That way she's thinking through it, visualizing the whole, and then she'll be able to think through the 5 or 6 most important steps. Another method is to have them outline it via paragraphs. That's what WWS has you doing in day 2 with non-fiction samples. When we did WT2 (which was AWESOME), they started you off just writing one sentence summaries for each paragraph. She could do that and then combine them to get that total in half. She'd still be in the spirit of the assignment in WWS that way. After the student was comfortable with the sentence for each paragraph method, then they took them down to keywords. She would basically write 3-4 key words for each paragraph as she reads. That would jog her memory and help her write her 5-6 summarizing phrases or sentences that she boils down to 3-4. Another method is using tokens. So read the story, and every time a new thing happens push a token forward. (button, coin, poker chip, slip of paper, whatever) Then go back and think through the story using the tokens, figuring out the 5 or 6 most important. It's a visual method of summarizing and harnesses their visual memory.

 

So there are lots of different ways to access it. It's ok to give her some supports like that. She has to build some pathways in the brain so it clicks what she's trying to do. The supports help her get there.

 

So notice the difference. You can use supports to help her learn to summarize longer works, or go back to WWE and practice with shorter selections. Either way is ok. You could even pause for 2 weeks, go do some WWE (using the main book) and then come back to WWS. At that point it might be a lot easier. The main WWE book is set up very efficiently. She wouldn't have to get through all 4 levels. Just doing the first 2 or 3 (she'd test out of 1 in no time flat) would be sufficient. She just needs a little something to help it click.

[thebacabunch]

wws is supposed to be independant work. If a kiddo is having a hard time gettting wws done independently they might not be ready for it. My daughter does the exercise and THEN I correct it by comparing her writing to the examples in the teacher's manual. She usually gets it done correctly and when she doesn't I go over it with her so she understands it, and then we move on.

[TNLisa]

I agree that WWS is to be independent - my 8th grade dd is doing this completely independently and is doing a fine job. I help her occasionally with the directions, but otherwise she is on her own. I have been very impressed with how clearly the student workbook speaks to the student. After 3 years of Writing Strands, this is a breath of fresh air! My daughter is finally understanding the components of writing, and even enjoying it as she gains confidence.

[BrettW]

I am having a similar experience as the OP. My 10yo (almost 11) is not able to complete a lesson of WWS unless I'm sitting with her...EVERY...SECOND.

 

We're in Week 6. She does ok as long as I'm helping her. She could NOT do it independently. She also says it's her least favorite program. :glare:

 

After reading this post, I'm wondering if it would make sense to go back into WWE 3/4 (she did some WWE2, but never did 3 or 4) and spend a year doing those. Then, next year cover WT2. (We did WT1 years ago) Then, when she's 13 or so, go back to WWS. Maybe by then, she could do it independently, which seems to be the design of the program...

 

hmmm

:bigear:

[Nakia]

Did SWB say somewhere that WWS is supposed to be done completely independently? I admit I haven't read every page of the huge WWS thread and am too lazy to look right now, lol. There is an awful lot of dialogue in the parent guide that is to take place between student and teacher, especially toward the end, for her to have meant it to be independent. That's not to mention all of the parent/instructor prompts throughout the program. I have always been involved in most of the work my daughter has done. It's not necessarily because she doesn't understand how to do it, but it's mostly because the workload is intense, and she sometimes need help sorting it into manageable chunks. She is finishing week 34 tomorrow. I don't think that the fact that a child needs assistance/support means, necessarily, that he/she isn't using the curriculum successfully. Just my opinion. Of course, the pps could be correct that a few weeks of practicing narration with WWE would be helpful.

[PeterPan]

I am having a similar experience as the OP. My 10yo (almost 11) is not able to complete a lesson of WWS unless I'm sitting with her...EVERY...SECOND.

 

We're in Week 6. She does ok as long as I'm helping her. She could NOT do it independently. She also says it's her least favorite program. :glare:

 

After reading this post, I'm wondering if it would make sense to go back into WWE 3/4 (she did some WWE2, but never did 3 or 4) and spend a year doing those. Then, next year cover WT2. (We did WT1 years ago) Then, when she's 13 or so, go back to WWS. Maybe by then, she could do it independently, which seems to be the design of the program...

 

hmmm

:bigear:

 

In your case, I would get WT2 to do *this* year. She's at a FABULOUS age for it, and I'll bet WWS looks a lot easier and more enjoyable after WT2. If you liked WT1, you're going to LOVE WT2. :)

[robsiew]

I have 4 kids and none of them enjoy writing. They are all very writing phobic. (How that happened I don't know as I enjoy writing! My dh doesn't though so that must be a dominant gene!)

 

Anyway, my 6th grader is on lesson 29 of WWS1. He is not independent at all, but I still find it very valuable for him to be studying this curriculum. We work through it together until we get to a point he can do it himself. Sometimes I guide him through a whole lesson, sometimes I can set him free to finish on his own. I don't see this as a problem. He is learning a ton and by sitting with him I can help him relax about writing. He's very independent in other things so I know writing is just overall tough for him. I almost always use any prompts that are given unless we're working on narration or outlining one level which he can do well. That's what they are there for! Think of using the prompts as teaching your child how to think through the question. It's giving him/her an idea of how to approach it.

 

I think children who are natural writers (or at least aren't afraid of the pencil) can be expected to do this independently (if they have enough maturity), but honestly, no matter how much narration and dictation we would do (he's very good at both and completed WWE through level 4) it won't help him not be afraid of writing. He just is. Some days he's confident and does well on his own... most days I help him along. My hope is that by high school his confidence will be built and he will be independent. I think some kids just need more hand-holding for a longer time. And bonus is... I'm learning a lot too! :D

[thebacabunch]

I am having a similar experience as the OP. My 10yo (almost 11) is not able to complete a lesson of WWS unless I'm sitting with her...EVERY...SECOND.

 

We're in Week 6. She does ok as long as I'm helping her. She could NOT do it independently. She also says it's her least favorite program. :glare:

 

After reading this post, I'm wondering if it would make sense to go back into WWE 3/4 (she did some WWE2, but never did 3 or 4) and spend a year doing those. Then, next year cover WT2. (We did WT1 years ago) Then, when she's 13 or so, go back to WWS. Maybe by then, she could do it independently, which seems to be the design of the program...

 

hmmm

:bigear:

WWS is for logic stage. Logic stage is middle school. It is a lot about development and not intelligence. I would head back to wwe for another year. I think, though not everyone agrees, that the lessons are best absorbed when the kids are at a stage where they can work independantly.

[Colleen]

I for one am *really* looking forward to the TM for WWS, that I understand will come out at some point

 

Since there's already an Instructor's Manual for WWS, are you referring to something else? Did SWB indicate there will be an over-arching guide to the four-year WWS program ~ a la the Complete Fundamentals book that accompanies WWE?

 

SWB said it was supposed to be independent.

wws is supposed to be independant work. If a kiddo is having a hard time gettting wws done independently they might not be ready for it.

I agree that WWS is to be independent

Did SWB say somewhere that WWS is supposed to be done completely independently?

 

No. SWB does not say that WWS is supposed to be done completely independently, though some people here have that impression. Below, I've relayed the relevant portion from the Introduction to the Instructor Text Level 1, adding my own bolding and parenthetical comments as applicable to this conversation:

 

"The directions in this course are targeted at the student. As the student moves into the middle grades, she is ready to take on more and more responsibility for her own academic work. Allow her to read the instructions and begin to follow them on her own before you step in with additional help and guidance. [That is to say, you may need to step in, but let the student wrangle with it first.]

 

"Ultimately, writing is a self-guided activity. This course will develop [not assume] the student's ability to plan and carry out a piece of writing on her own.

 

"In your text, some instructions will be followed by the notation "(Student Responsibility)." These are to be completed by the student independently, with no assistance from you. When instructions appear without this notation, the student may need you to help with the assignment or check her work."

[Colleen in NS]

We are only on Day 3. My daughter seems to be having A LOT of trouble picking out the 5 to 6 sentences out of the story. Plus, the book says to narrate it back first, then write it.

 

Well, I have had to prompt her with the questions that are given in the TM. And, when she went to tell me the story outloud, it sounded good. But she got frustrated when she went to write the combined 3 sentences. She forgot what she said. So instead, she just writes the 3 sentences and doesn't bother to day it outloud.

 

Is that ok? Is it a neccesity for her to tell me the three sentences outloud prior to writing it?

 

Yes, it is necessary for her to say her sentences out loud. WWS has the student doing that all year long - it's essential, so that the student can hear what they are thinking - it's a step towards translating those thoughts to the paper. It also helps them to clarify grammatical structures before they write (or helps you to help them correct structures before they write - you'd take their thought, fix the grammar, say it to student, have student repeat it back to you, then student would write it down).

 

And how can I get her to determine what are the most important sentences for her to write out of the story without me prompting her?

 

We never did WWE. And we never did narrations.

 

Because of everything you wrote, I would seriously recommend getting the Writing With Ease Strong Fundamentals book. It is the overall WWE book that people who don't want to use the WWE workbooks (or people like me who wanted to have our kids writing about our own reading selections) use, for all four years of teaching WWE skills (narration, and being able to write down narrations because of dictation skills acquired). It's thin, it's inexpensive, it tells you how to teach each section in each of the four levels, it gives you sample weeks for each section; and you can skip through the beginning sections until you find the section where she starts to need help with. And since she's older, the workbooks would probably seem too young, so the book I'm talking about will allow you to select your own, more mature, readings that she can comfortably practice her narration and dictation skills on.

 

It just sounds to me as if she really needs to practice basic narration and dictation before she can comfortably go on with WWS. Yes, WWS offers a few weeks of narration practice, but it quickly goes a lot deeper. If she's not very comfortable with narration and dictation, she will likely get more frustrated with WWS.

 

I for one am *really* looking forward to the TM for WWS, that I understand will come out at some point . . . I think it will help us struggle through some of these lessons, if we can see the big picture of what we are working toward and how all the pieces fit.

 

The TM for WWS has always been available. It's essential to the program.

 

And I can't see a 5th grader doing WWS1. It is even challenging to me. And there is no way I could see a child doing this independently.

 

A 5th grader with the WWE background can do WWS. Some may have to slow it down, but they can do it. And, like Colleen said, it is not meant to be done independently. It is very much instructor-guided and evaluated. Parts of it are designed to help the student practice independent work, but the program as a whole NEEDS the instructor (which is why the instructor guide is essential). There is a lot of nitty gritty in the IG which is essential to the teaching process.

 

So I have a question, as she is reading should she be taking notes? No, notetaking comes later in the course. Or is she supposed to read the whole story and go back in and pick out the 5 or 6 most important sentences/phrases?

 

No, she doesn't pick out the most important sentences phrases. She is to summarize, which again, might be best learned in the WWE book I talked about above, in order to make the beginning of WWS easier later.

 

I am having a similar experience as the OP. My 10yo (almost 11) is not able to complete a lesson of WWS unless I'm sitting with her...EVERY...SECOND.

 

...

 

After reading this post, I'm wondering if it would make sense to go back into WWE 3/4 (she did some WWE2, but never did 3 or 4)...

 

I'd same the same to you as I said to the OP.

 

No. SWB does not say that WWS is supposed to be done completely independently, though some people here have that impression. Below, I've relayed the relevant portion from the Introduction to the Instructor Text Level 1, adding my own bolding and parenthetical comments as applicable to this conversation:

 

"The directions in this course are targeted at the student. As the student moves into the middle grades, she is ready to take on more and more responsibility for her own academic work. Allow her to read the instructions and begin to follow them on her own before you step in with additional help and guidance. [That is to say, you may need to step in, but let the student wrangle with it first.]

 

"Ultimately, writing is a self-guided activity. This course will develop [not assume] the student's ability to plan and carry out a piece of writing on her own.

 

"In your text, some instructions will be followed by the notation "(Student Responsibility)." These are to be completed by the student independently, with no assistance from you. When instructions appear without this notation, the student may need you to help with the assignment or check her work."

 

:iagree:

[Chrysalis Academy]

I was referring to the overall manual SWB says she will be putting out to go with all the levels of WWS - kind of like the Writing With Ease - Strong Fundamentals book that goes with WWE. I read in the WWS sticky that such a thing was on the horizon. I think it will be incredibly helpful to be able to see the whole roadmap and the logic of where the lessons are leading from the beginning. It helps one trust the process. I wouldn't have had as much confidence in WWE without having read Strong Fundamentals - it showed me where we were going, and how these steps were going to lead us there. So that is what I'm looking forward to for WWS! :D

[Colleen in NS]

I was referring to the overall manual SWB says she will be putting out to go with all the levels of WWS - kind of like the Writing With Ease - Strong Fundamentals book that goes with WWE. I read in the WWS sticky that such a thing was on the horizon.

 

Oh! I missed that - where in that long thread can I read about it?

 

ETA: Nevermind, I just found it! http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showpost.php?p=4214942&postcount=32 It's in the p.s. part of her post. Very cool, I had no idea!

 

ETA again: No wonder I never saw it - it's in a thread that recently got bumped up months after the OP started it (not the WWS sticky thread - is it mentioned there, too?).

Edited October 3, 2012 by Colleen in NS

[Colleen in NS]

It was actually liberating to read in the sticky that WWS will probably end up as a 3-year program, with an optional 4th year. This is liberating, because we can spread a 3-year program over 4 years, and have plenty of time for "other" writing in between. Anyway, all's I'm saying is that it is slowly sinking in that I *can* have it both ways - I can benefit from SWB's "brain" downloaded into WWS, which helps me be sure that I'm teaching everything I need to be teaching, but we can also make our writing relevant to the rest of our learning. I don't have to choose, I can have both! This, I love! :D

 

Just pulling this post over from the thread where I got the quote above. Rose, this is brilliant! I'm going to have to think about this, because I'm in a small dilemma with my daughter at the moment...

[Chrysalis Academy]

Colleen, you are probably right - that is probably the thread I saw the news of the WWS "manual" in. I remember being gleefully excited when I read about it!

 

We're kind of trying to do this now - we took a week off from WWS this week for dd to write a literary analysis of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. We finished the book on Monday and discussed it, on Tuesday she did an outline including the points she wanted to cover - she decided to compare and contrast the characters of Ned Land, Captain Nemo, and Professor Arronax - and today she wrote a rough draft. Tomorrow will be polishing and finishing. I'm proud of her for making a good effort on this project; I'm kind of at a loss about how to critique it, though - meaning, what exactly should I be expecting from a literary analysis at this stage? How critical should I be? Should I correct everything I see, or just pick out one or two things to focus on? This is where I get into trouble with teaching w/o a manual! :glare:

 

I guess I'm going to have to jump ahead and read the Literary Analysis chapters in WWS! And listen again to SWB's lecture! Before tomorrow! ;)

[Susie in CA]

I agree with previous poster. It may be a good idea to go back to Writing with Ease and use the Complete Book which covers all 4 years very quickly. You can start at the beginning. It will be extremely easy at first. However, you go through it quickly and will see at which point she needs more practice. Stop there and get that level book. It could, of course, also be that the quick review will be enough.

 

Hope this helps.

[Colleen]

Yes, it is necessary for her to say her sentences out loud. WWS has the student doing that all year long - it's essential, so that the student can hear what they are thinking - it's a step towards translating those thoughts to the paper.

 

I don't see value in forcing this particular technique as it may not mesh with a student's learning style. Being required to say sentences aloud prior to writing them would hinder rather than help me. If anything, I might write a sentence and then read it aloud. That's a better learning tool for me and the same is true for my guys.

 

Because of everything you wrote, I would seriously recommend getting the Writing With Ease Strong Fundamentals book...(T)he workbooks would probably seem too young, so the book I'm talking about will allow you to select your own, more mature, readings that she can comfortably practice her narration and dictation skills on.

 

I don't know about the original poster but my sense is that, like me, she wouldn't be able to pull this off based solely on the WWE Strong Fundamentals book. I did appreciate that book in that it gave me a sense of the big picture and provided some sample weeks for us as a trial run. But I wouldn't want to try and apply that to other readings. I want (need?) to have the leg work done for me.

 

It just sounds to me as if she really needs to practice basic narration and dictation before she can comfortably go on with WWS. Yes, WWS offers a few weeks of narration practice, but it quickly goes a lot deeper. If she's not very comfortable with narration and dictation, she will likely get more frustrated with WWS.

I'm only a handful of weeks into WWS and thus far, I've been surprised at that I don't sense a great deal of crossover from WWE. My 7th grader didn't use WWE and for the most part, he's doing fine with WWS. On the other hand, I wouldn't have gone straight into WWS with my 5th grader. He's using WWE 4 this year primarily because imo WWS isn't well-suited for 5th grade.

[Colleen in NS]

I don't see value in forcing this particular technique as it may not mesh with a student's learning style. Being required to say sentences aloud prior to writing them would hinder rather than help me. If anything, I might write a sentence and then read it aloud. That's a better learning tool for me and the same is true for my guys.

 

I see what you are saying; I made my comments based on this: "And how can I get her to determine what are the most important sentences for her to write out of the story without me prompting her?" It seemed to me that narrating aloud first would have been helpful. Then the OP could see if the daughter picked out the basic storyline, before possible frustration resulted from writing first and finding out she was off.

 

However, I missed this:

 

"But she seems to be picking out the correct sentences/phrases( the 5 or 6) to get them put into 3 or 4 sentences.

 

I think the lightbulb is coming on."

 

I don't know about the original poster but my sense is that, like me, she wouldn't be able to pull this off based solely on the WWE Strong Fundamentals book. I did appreciate that book in that it gave me a sense of the big picture and provided some sample weeks for us as a trial run. But I wouldn't want to try and apply that to other readings. I want (need?) to have the leg work done for me.

 

I suggested the overall book mainly because the daughter is 14 and may not appreciate the younger feel of the workbooks.

 

However, possibly the daughter is doing fine now with WWS - I see that the OP was written a couple of weeks ago. :D