Classical Writing-does this prepare you for non-fiction writing? across the curr.?

[Kfamily]

Hi!

 

I am sorry to ask so many questions about writing but as you can probably tell I trying to sort out this subject for myself.:001_smile:

 

I am settled that this coming year dd in 6th will concentrate on grammar, latin, Writing Tales 2 to finish and then some non-fiction writing across the curriculum concentrating on developing paragraphs and later several paragraphs. (Thank you OhElizabeth)

 

My question is focused on where I will go next. Classical Writing Homer is where I should go next to follow WT2 but I am wondering about this. DD will be in 7th then. Does CW allow for teaching writing across curriculum? For those of you who choose CW how do you handle this apect of writing? Is 7th grade getting too old to start Homer? Would dd be better served if we choose something else in 7th? I have only seen CW on the internet and am not sure what it covers and when and where. Many of you choose CW and consider it the best choice (I have LCC and it is suggested here too). I am leaning towards CW for several reasons: it is already pulled together and I already feel inadequate to teach this level of writing, I still feel like IEW is a little "forced" , and I like grammar being an important part of the program.

 

Sooo many questions-I know! Have I mentioned how much I appreciate all of you ladies and your guidance and support!:001_smile:

[HollyDay]

Interesting question. I used Homer last year (6th) and it was a great thing for my writing challenged dd. Suddenly, she liked writing - after years of hating it. She said she finally understood what she was supposed to do and what was expected of her.

 

That is the good news.

 

The bad news, is I dont think it prepares the dc for practical writing in other subject areas. For example, in history this coming year (7th), dd must write an essay on the impact of the printing press on society and the reformation. we started history already and I am glad after looking at the writing component. She hasnt a clue how to write it. She can verbalize it beautifully. She researched the subject well and can discuss it quite completely. But, she doesnt know how to write it. Homer doesnt teach this.

 

My understanding of CW is that the scope and sequence is very different than the "average bear". Would someone kindly correct me if this is not the case. My friend often compares it to MUS - a totally different way of learning and doing things with a totally different scope and sequence. IF you stay the course through the whole program, you will have all the tools in the end, just not when they are - perhaps - needful.

 

So, this is also my problem. Do I stay the course with CW knowing what a fantastic program it is (and dd likes it)? Or do I switch to something else to meet the needs of the other subjects? Or do I attempt to add another program?

 

I asked this question several threads ago as well. YOu might try a search and see what you find.

 

So, basically, in my humble opinion, CW does not prepare the student for "practical" writing early enough. The other subjects are driving a need for reports, research papers, essays, etc earlier than CW is teaching it.

 

Again, I would love to hear what more experienced CW users have to say.

 

I do know some folks who chose IEW over CW for this very reason. But, that is not without its problems as well. On the one hand, it is great to have so many choices, but on the other - it is confusing!!!!

[Kfamily]

Please.

[Paula in PA]

You might want to try posting your question on the CW message boards.

 

http://lene.proboards15.com/index.cgi

[Melora in NC]

So, basically, in my humble opinion, CW does not prepare the student for "practical" writing early enough. The other subjects are driving a need for reports, research papers, essays, etc earlier than CW is teaching it.

 

Again, I would love to hear what more experienced CW users have to say.

 

I do know some folks who chose IEW over CW for this very reason. But, that is not without its problems as well. On the one hand, it is great to have so many choices, but on the other - it is confusing!!!!

 

 

This is how it appears to me as well. I still have 13 weeks left of Writing Tales II, but I bought IEW's TWSS and am watching it now. I am planning to start implementing it slowly in about 5 weeks, when we start back to history. Once we are finished with WTII, my plan is to use IEW until at least early spring, when I am sort of planning to start Homer. I'm hoping that eight months of IEW will give ds the note taking, report writing skills which the CW style programs have not yet provided. (And then I hope I'll find some good way to proceed through the CW program and continue to use IEW as well. I like them both!)

[Melissa B]

I have found that I cannot use it across the curriculum. I really like the philosophy behind Classical Writing so we use it as a supplemental writing program, but I decided to use another curriculum (MCT) for more modern writing in other subject areas.

 

That said, Diogenes does cover standard (modern) essay writing at the very end. And I believe the later books will cover more standard writing as well simply because the progym and standard methods become more aligned further on (argumentative essay, compare/contrast, etc.) In the long run I think using only Classical Writing would work out fine. If you would like your children writing across the curriculum at an earlier age (before the end of Diogenes -so 7th or 8th grade) it is easier to use another curriculum.

[LizzyBee]

I think CW will actually prepare students for all types of writing better than most modern programs because it teaches students to analyze and think deeply about the subject they are writing about rather than simply following a formula. Have you seen Diogenes yet? It's the level that teaches essay writing.

[PeterPan]

Melora, the 2nd half of WT2, where you cover the sentence beginnings, is VERY similar to the dress-ups in IEW. You're going to find it carries over very nicely to non-fiction writing with IEW. WT2 has you doing paragraphing and identifying reasons for each paragraph (akin to the concept of a topic sentence), and of course you've done plenty of outlining with it. I'm finding my dd has had no trouble making the leap over to IEW-style paragraphs and that WT2 prepared her well.

 

I think the best answer to this CW vs. IEW debate is to alternate programs. It's what SWB suggests here http://www.welltrainedmind.com/wordsmith.html

 

What WT2 taught me was how to apply the dress-ups and these techniques without having it be forced. Yes, you can get some pretty funky, stilted writing if you're not careful, but I'm not finding that to be the case with us. I made up my own checklists for our paragraph writing using the free lesson plans on IEW's site and what we had already done with WT2. Instead of simply requiring a certain number, I have her inject them through the editing process, having her look for weak sentences she could strengthen. For the thesaurus use, again, I talk her through it, asking her to look for 2-3 words she could replace to make more descriptive, interesting, or accurate. So maybe that's part of the key, to talk it through with them in the editing process to guide them in their changes?

[profmom]

I think CW will actually prepare students for all types of writing better than most modern programs because it teaches students to analyze and think deeply about the subject they are writing about rather than simply following a formula. Have you seen Diogenes yet? It's the level that teaches essay writing.

 

:iagree: I'm very impressed with what CW-Homer covers and look forward to spending this year (6th) with Homer B. I've found CW's instruction to be deeper than anything else I've looked at, but I admit that I haven't really evaluated anything else since finding CW.

 

If we get into the year and feel the need to teach essays, I think I can easily add this on my own. The basic essay seems more like a formula to me, but I look forward to seeing how Diogenes will cover it for dd's 7th grade year.

 

(BTW, I saw your other thread first and see that others in this thread have said what I was trying to.)

 

Editing to answer your original question. I do feel that CW prepares dc for non-fiction writing. Aesop and Homer do mostly use fiction for the models, but the skills being taught and practiced will be used for any type of writing. The focus is not on telling a good story or being creative, it's on the skills of quality writing.

 

I hope you find just what you're looking for!

[Kathie in VA]

I've run into this argument before also (mainly with myself). I'm hoping to put my 8th gr dd and 7th gr ds into Aesop/Homer for Older Beginners this year. This way will can get thru all of Homer in one year instead of two. I'd really like them to get thru as much of CW as possible before graduating.

 

I made a similar post on the CW message board where I was asking what to do now that we have fallen behind. http://lene.proboards15.com/index.cgi?board=think&action=display&thread=1208 I'm also a bit worried about not teaching the essay till later when it seems to be a big focus in modern education... see latest standarized testing and SATs.

 

However the key is to learn it well... and I still think CW will teach it better then most other prgrms. Which brings me to a concern you raised: what to do with writing assignments from other subjects that are beyond the skills taught in your current level of CW? I have a post on the CW message boards on where I was asking about Logic stage type questions and writing assignments from other subjects and how CW can help.

http://lene.proboards15.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=184

 

Couple of choices: teach the needed skills separately, drop the writing assignment and just research and discuss OR change the writing assignment from the other curriculum so that it only requires the skills learned so far in CW. For example instead of writing a compare/contract paper, write a narrative on one side... retell the story. The write a 2nd narrative of the other side of the issue. Discuss the comparisions. Maybe make a chart or something.

 

{Okay, now I'm still waiting to talk to dh about all this and see if he agrees with me. :D }

 

hths

[Kfamily]

I admit I am feeling rather torn because so many different opinions from ladies whose opinions I do respect are very opposite from each other.

 

Thank you, for including the CW conversation. This is very helpful to me. It shows me that there might be a way to make this work.

 

I am thinking a few book recommendations are in order.:001_smile:

It looks like in order to figure this out I need to know more myself. There seems to be no really great program. There are advantages and disadvantages in all of them and if I know more I can sort this out better. If anyone has any book recommendations for me to learn more about writing myself I will gladly take them!

 

Thank you ladies, all of you, for taking the time to answer all these questions. Your knowledge helps me be a better teacher.

[Melora in NC]

Melora, the 2nd half of WT2, where you cover the sentence beginnings, is VERY similar to the dress-ups in IEW. You're going to find it carries over very nicely to non-fiction writing with IEW. WT2 has you doing paragraphing and identifying reasons for each paragraph (akin to the concept of a topic sentence), and of course you've done plenty of outlining with it. I'm finding my dd has had no trouble making the leap over to IEW-style paragraphs and that WT2 prepared her well.

 

I think the best answer to this CW vs. IEW debate is to alternate programs. It's what SWB suggests here http://www.welltrainedmind.com/wordsmith.html

 

What WT2 taught me was how to apply the dress-ups and these techniques without having it be forced. Yes, you can get some pretty funky, stilted writing if you're not careful, but I'm not finding that to be the case with us. I made up my own checklists for our paragraph writing using the free lesson plans on IEW's site and what we had already done with WT2. Instead of simply requiring a certain number, I have her inject them through the editing process, having her look for weak sentences she could strengthen. For the thesaurus use, again, I talk her through it, asking her to look for 2-3 words she could replace to make more descriptive, interesting, or accurate. So maybe that's part of the key, to talk it through with them in the editing process to guide them in their changes?

 

 

Thank you for that link -- I hadn't seen that before!

Alternating CW and IEW is what I think I'd like to figure out how to do. We school year round, so I think we might be able to do both, giving CW the greater amount of time, probably.

 

I'm going to save your description of how you use IEW with WTII with your dd -- that is Exactly the way I want them to work together, and I am hoping that the CW program will help us avoid any formulaic feel in my dc's writing.

Again, thank you!

[8filltheheart]

A book you might want to look into is Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition. It is definitely a college level textbook, but the writing style is an easy read and I enjoyed it.

 

Another book that is an easy read is the Lively Art of Writing. It is a high school book oriented toward basic essay writing.

 

HTH

[Kfamily]

Thank you for the book recommendations. I can read these and prepare for 7th while I have a plan for 6th. I am really feeling the weight of how truly uneducated (and I have a degree in elem. educ. :001_smile:) I really am!

 

Thanks again for all your help!

[Kathie in VA]

A good book for understanding the progym or the method Classical Writing uses is: Composition in the Classical Tradition by Frank J. D'Angelo .

http://www.amazon.com/Composition-Classical-Tradition-Frank-DAngelo/dp/0023271418/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1G2Z7LVV5IS6R&colid=1X9YRSTJ00QUU

 

It is a bit high priced but you might be able to find it at your library. Mine doesn't have it though :glare:, so I just might try to do that 'inter library loan' (ILL) thing to get a copy without spending all those $$. I've heard it's a great book.

 

hth

[Beth in SW WA]

A good book for understanding the progym or the method Classical Writing uses is: Composition in the Classical Tradition by Frank J. D'Angelo .

http://www.amazon.com/Composition-Classical-Tradition-Frank-DAngelo/dp/0023271418/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1G2Z7LVV5IS6R&colid=1X9YRSTJ00QUU

 

It is a bit high priced but you might be able to find it at your library. Mine doesn't have it though :glare:, so I just might try to do that 'inter library loan' (ILL) thing to get a copy without spending all those $$. I've heard it's a great book.

 

hth

 

Kathie,

Did you buy it? Worth the $$?

Thanks!!