Please help me with language arts!

[jeninok]

This got long.....:ack2: I am obviously over thinking this!

 

 

DS is in 5th grade and both ahead and behind in a lot of areas!

 

I am working hard to get his skill areas caught up to his conceptual understanding and interests in content areas. We are finally seeing some changes in his focus, and thought processes so I think now is the time to start to really push for improvement.

 

He did Shurley English in PS from k-4th and it did a great job teaching him, and he seemed to enjoy it. I am considering picking up the homeschool version, but I would prefer something simpler if at all possible. Does anyone know what levels 6-8 are like?

 

He does well with filling in workbooks, but then it doesn't translate well to actual writing assignments, and I just can't seem to find something I really like that will actually teach him, and not be so boring we both want to stab ourselves in the eye!

 

My goals

 

1. To help transfer his amazing verbal skills to his written ability,

2. Continue and increase formal grammar to line up with logic stage levels. 3. Introduce diagramming and advanced punctuation

4. Give a strong focus to improving word choice and sentence structure

5. Any help with note taking, deeper comprehension, or study skills in general is good.

 

I prefer secular, but am fine with some religious content as long as it isn't too focused on missionary or evangelical type subjects.

 

We tried Apples this year for spelling rules review, and it was too long spent on each rule, plus I (and DS complained) had issues with some of the content.

 

I have heard Writeshop Apprentice, the newspaper one, is excellent. But when I looked at it in Mardel, the faded typing and weird font would be a major issue. I know I would end up having to re-type the lessons!

 

I am also looking at CLE language arts, probably the 600 level, as the 500 seems to be things he already knows. But I don't know if it would translate well to actual writing.

 

We are using Igniting your writing, generally the start up, and intermediate assignments, with the advanced only when I think it would be particularly useful, but it isn't complete enough for me.

 

We are also using WWS, but going VERY slowly as I want to introduce the outlining and improve his content awareness skills, but I also know he really isn't ready to do it at the speed and independence given in the assignments.

 

His written spelling needs work, but I see no improvement from straight spelling lists or programs, so I am hoping that with increased reading on a higher level, as well as editing his, and other's, writing together he will improve.

 

I have considered still using Apples, but skipping the lessons I don't like, as well as cutting way back on the days spent on a lot of the concepts. Has anyone else used it and seen improvement?

 

I would love some suggestions, I feel like I just keep spinning my wheels and going around in circles when it comes to this!

[PeterPan]

Shurley 6 will be great for him. There's not a lot of reason to do Shurley 5. (look at the scope & sequence) 7 was a bust for us, but it might be great for you. It went on FOREVER, ugh. I always bought the optional practical workbook that had the sentences typed out, so that made it easy. And yes, we added in diagramming. Because there are only 3 sentences to parse a day, it's a snap to add in diagramming. Just pick the middle one, diagram it on a whiteboard, and boom you're there.

 

I'm doing WWS1 right now with my 8th grader. Frankly it BLOWS MY MIND that people are doing this with 5th graders. I'm sure there are some who can, but I'd give yourself some extreme freedom there. Back up and go to WWE would be my advice. He doesn't have the foundation to do WWS easily, and there's no point doing it torturously. It's great, love it, but my dd could not have done it in 5th. I'm glad someone else's can. Kids differ, so if your kid happens to be like mine a bit, that's your word to the wise. :)

 

WTM suggests narration, copywork, and dictation in grades 1-4 as the foundation for its 5th grade recs. I would go back and make sure he can do those things easily. At that point WWS will probably be easier. We did Writing Tales and LOVED it, but you'd have to look the girl vs. boy thing I'm no help on. If he does WT2 and Shurley 6, don't feel compelled to rush through Shurley, kwim? There would be plenty of grammar in WT as well, so he could just take his time with Shurley. That way he finishes Shurley 6 at the end of 6th. And maybe in 6th you come back to WWS, when it may go better (both with the age and more time working on narrations, outlining, etc. under his belt). WT2 will do some different kinds of outlines (sentences, keyboard, paragraph by paragraph, etc.). It's good to outline, but remember you can pull that outlining into ANYTHING he enjoys. Last year my dd read articles in Muse magazine and outlined them using a graphic organizer app on the ipad. That was a LOT of fun and very worthwhile. More than one way to skin a cat. You can make it fun for him. :)

 

Hmm, spelling for us is a mixed bag. I just finally gave up. I know that sounds terrible, but we worked really, really hard on it for years. We did dictation, and SWR and all sorts of stuff. Around last year I just realized it was time to move on, and that's what we've done. But that was 7th. For 5th, yeah I'd do a mix of things. For dd the issue was visual. She needed to see the word in context more. We did lots of dictation, where she'd then read the sentence back to see the words in context. We did some spelling on the computer. We worked on typing, because typing engages their kinesthetic memory and is visual reinforcement to boot. Workbooks weren't much help to her. Mainly we did lots and lots and lots of dictation. Also there are some visualization techniques you can read about in books like "Right-Brained Children in a Left-Brained World."

[birchbark]

So far we are really enjoying our LA choices this year. Daily Grammar Practice is a very complete, efficient (5 min/day), and mostly self-teaching program. It is very easy to use and will cover both punctuation and diagramming for you. Make sure to look at the samples; we ended up with a level down from DS's grade and it's about right. (They also have a similar program for spelling which looks really good.)

 

For writing we are using Understanding Writing. It is a complete course up to grade 12 where everyone starts at the beginning and moves through at their own pace. It is very incremental, and laid out in short, daily lessons. It's not secular, but probably wouldn't be hard to use as such. I've looked at a lot of writing programs, and this by far impresses me the most.

[jeninok]

Thank you!!

 

I know he isn't quite ready for WWS, but WWE just did not work at all for us, it was like pulling teeth and resulted in meltdowns. I have been working with him on narration, dictation and copywork in our science and history subjects.

 

I will look into Writing Tales, Somehow I missed that one! It sounds like it might be what we are looking for though :)

 

Can I ask where you would go after Shurley 6?

 

We are just now coming out of crisis mode academically with him, so for the first time I feel like I can look forward and really have a plan in place to get him were he wants to go in life.

 

We printed out a recommended course of study for Paleontologists and Zoologists this week and put it in his binder, that way he can remind himself why he is working so hard at these difficult skills!

[PeterPan]

I'm not aware of your whole situation, but (just so you know), WWE is really drawing on a dc's working memory. If he has working memory issues or adhd or just about any SN, it may be a problem. Working memory is something you can work on separately. As you say, combining writing and working memory is a torturous way to try to improve either. The goal is no trauma. :)

 

After Shurley 6? LOL, wish I had some great answer. Drag it out, that's my advice. You can go into AG (Analytical Grammar) or Winston Advanced or whatever you like at that point. Both of those will be good after Shurley 6. We're doing the BJU 9 now, and it's fine. It doesn't meet your parameters probably, and it's a 9th grade text that feels like a 9th grade text. (long exercise sets, lots of editing, throw complex concepts together, etc.) It's a good step for us at this point. You'll just have to watch him and see.

[jeninok]

I have ordered Writing Tales........after much hand wringing and feeling guilty about buying yet another curriculum ;)

 

I am still undecided about Shurley for grammar this year, We might just end up getting it after christmas so that I can stretch it out through next year as well!! I just hate having to have that many parts to a program.

[PeterPan]

You know if he likes CLE for math, he might like CLE for grammar...

 

Enjoy WT! :)

[Maisy]

I'm doing WWS1 right now with my 8th grader. Frankly it BLOWS MY MIND that people are doing this with 5th graders. I'm sure there are some who can, but I'd give yourself some extreme freedom there. Back up and go to WWE would be my advice. He doesn't have the foundation to do WWS easily, and there's no point doing it torturously. It's great, love it, but my dd could not have done it in 5th. I'm glad someone else's can. Kids differ, so if your kid happens to be like mine a bit, that's your word to the wise. :)

 

WTM suggests narration, copywork, and dictation in grades 1-4 as the foundation for its 5th grade recs. I would go back and make sure he can do those things easily.

 

:iagree:

 

For the second time now I'm using 5th grade as a "transition" year--ready for more than WWE but not ready for a full-blown essay.

 

I'm using R&S 5 to get the grammar and some writing instruction in (scheduled for me). But I agree with OhE. My 5th grade DS would not be successful with WWS1 this year. I love it; my DD did it in 6th grade last year; it's an amazing program and what they accomplish by year's end is fantastic. But that said, I think it would be a stretch to use it with a typical 5th grader. Not sure if it's a boy thing, but I know it wouldn't happen this year with my DS. :lol:

 

We are just trying to tackle the basics and keep it simple, building those skills. We are doing weekly one-level outlines (from Kingfisher or other history reading), a narration from that outline, and lots of dictation and paragraph writing with our spelling using All About Spelling (6).

 

We are in a similar situation where what is "learned" in class isn't necessarily applied during writing. But I think much of that is just a stage that gets better as they mature and get more practice. I've seen it get better with my olders.

 

My goal for the year is just lots of short practice, practice, practice. I've cut the programs down to R&S (tried MCT Paragraph Town alongside but it exhausted us both), AAS, and history outlining/narrations, and I have seen improvement in both stamina and application of skills. So we are staying the course for now.

 

FWIW, SWB mentioned that the WWS series might be only 3 levels, so even if you start next year you should finish by the end of middle school.

 

I feel your pain! I hope you find that magic combination that works for your DS. Have a great year!

Lisa

[jeninok]

You know if he likes CLE for math, he might like CLE for grammar...

 

Enjoy WT! :)

 

Do you have any first hand experience with CLE grammar? My main concern was that it would be too religious for my comfort zone, however I have yet to run into any issues with the math so ????

[PeterPan]

Oh sorry, totally forgot the secular thing! I was just looking at your sig and making a connection and thinking it would give you the spiral of Shurley in a more convenient format. It's actually more thorough than Shurley, from what I've seen of the online samples. Haven't used it myself. They'll send you a free light unit of it, so it would at least be worth checking out.

[SunnyDays]

If you like the spiral, have you looked at Hake Grammar? It's secular, and basically laid out exactly like Saxon math. The grammar covers diagramming, parts of speech, mechanics, even a little vocabulary and spelling. There is a writing book you can use along with it... it's more traditional writing that works through paragraphs and up toward short essays. We just got it and we're liking it. I'm using 5th grade for my advanced 4th grader, and it would probably be a comfortable place to start for your guy... it does introduce diagramming and it starts off pretty basic but ramps up to cover a lot throughout the year.

 

Here's a page with some samples: http://www.christianbook.com/hakes-grammar-writing-grade-5-kit/stephen-hake/9781419098369/pd/998369

 

I've looked at Writing Tales and like it as well... it's a different style of writing than Hake, so you may be able to use both.

[jeninok]

Hake looks interesting as well!

 

 

I went ahead and ordered both Writing Tales 1 and 2. Can anyone who has used both give me input on where they would start? I am feeling like 1 might be too easy, but I also don't want to skip it all together if it would really be beneficial in the long run.

 

Do you think we could jump right in to level 2?

[PeterPan]

WT spends two weeks on each model. With an older student you can combine those into 1 and buzz through a bit faster. Don't underestimate the value of seeing grammar *in context*. Milk those models and all the grammar potential in there. I taught WT2 as a co-op class, and we had great fun with the grammar. We used colored markers and analyzed the models for all the grammar we had covered to that point. We loved the interactive games. And of course we saved all our final drafts and put them together as books at the end of the year.

[jeninok]

WT spends two weeks on each model. With an older student you can combine those into 1 and buzz through a bit faster. Don't underestimate the value of seeing grammar *in context*. Milk those models and all the grammar potential in there. I taught WT2 as a co-op class, and we had great fun with the grammar. We used colored markers and analyzed the models for all the grammar we had covered to that point. We loved the interactive games. And of course we saved all our final drafts and put them together as books at the end of the year.

 

Great idea!

 

I find with DS, that everything works better in context, I have pretty much decided at this point to scrap spelling as a separate curriculum and focus on proofreading, reading in general and vocabulary as it comes up in our subject areas.

 

Last night during read aloud time we were discussing parenthetical phrases and ellipses, he could see them both in the context of the story and really understand how they applied. Today I plan to try to get a sentence using parenthesis appropriately out of him!

 

I hate stopping to talk about a word or usage of grammar technique during writing, but it helps me make sure he is staying engaged with what I am reading, and not contemplating cat whiskers or his navel!

[Dolphin]

KISS is another Grammar program that I have heard great things about (and it is free) We use R&S, but that is not secular. It does have all the rules/diagramming etc....

 

We are doing WWS this year, last year (our 2nd year and his 4th grade year) what we did was outlines in SOTW, and I had him start a journal. 1 complete sentence about his day, after Christmas we bumped it to two. Writing was one of his main problem areas when he left school. We spent the first year just on handwriting and copy work, and then transitioned to the outlines/journals. His confidence is up and he is doing well this year with WWS. Last year would not have worked for that.

 

Spelling, we are having a lot of success this year with Phonetic Zoo.

 

Best of luck. It took me 2 years to "undo" school from my ds. It was worth it though.