Am I understanding this correctly?

[Mmoodies2121]

This is my first time starting a thread and generally I'm a lurker so please don't flame me :001_smile: but...

 

I visited our public school yesterday with my DS8 to discuss the possibility of him re-enrolling there. Long story but essentially we pulled him last year and due to some family issues at the moment, DH asked that I atleast look into it.

 

So, in discussing the gifted program with the guidance counselor, I couldn't put my finger on it at the time, but something in her explanation of acceptance criteria didn't seem "right" to me. Granted, I tend to be not very pro PS for various reasons so it is entirely possible I am reading more into this than is actually there.

 

She explained DS will have to take a test to see if he scores high enough for the program. Apparently there are limited spaces in the program (only 1 at the moment) and he's up for it with two other children "competing" for the spot. Right there, i was bothered by this...so if there are more gifted children than can be accommodated by the school, the rest are just SOL?:001_huh:

 

When I asked what happens if all 3 children score the same, she explained "we can look at other criteria" but didn't specify (dodged the question might be more accurate) and I didn't get a clear answer.

 

Couple all that with the explanation that because he did not finish 2nd grade in PS I will essentially have to prove that he's ready for 3rd grade and I came away from the meeting in not so great of a mood. :glare:

 

I wanted a better idea of the testing so I found this https://www.flrules.org/gateway/readFile.asp?sid=0&tid=1062070&type=1&File=6A-6.03019.doc

 

In reading this, it appears to me if a child falls within one of the 2 under represented groups, there is no "individually administered standardized test of intelligence." Am I understanding this correctly?

 

This is the first time I've looked into the gifted program here and found in talking to non HS friends with kids in the public school gifted program that they didn't really understand how their kids qualified, just that "one day the school called and said he was in the gifted program." :confused:

 

I've pretty much decided we will stay right where we are for now but I intend to pursue testing privately just to have a better understanding of DS needs and what I can do to help him but this whole gifted program made me wonder.

[Kathy G]

I can't answer your question, but can only say that you are wise to find out as much info as possible at the school. We were at a school that had funny criteria one year as well. DS was told he wasn't gifted because his writing wasn't neat enough- nevermind the fact that he scored 35 points higher than the school's gifted criteria NWEA in both reading and math. It can be pretty much at the schools discretion sometimes.

[snowbeltmom]

This is the first time I've looked into the gifted program here and found in talking to non HS friends with kids in the public school gifted program that they didn't really understand how their kids qualified, just that "one day the school called and said he was in the gifted program." :confused:

 

When we moved into our district, I asked to see the procedure for how kids were selected for the "gifted" program. I was told that the school does not release the procedure to the parents because the selection process is too difficult for the parents to understand.:glare:

 

If you decide to send your child to the public school, don't assume that the school is complying with your state's gifted policies.

 

Good luck

[snowbeltmom]

Exactly.

 

That's the big problem with many public schools...it's called 'winner take all'. Only so many seats are available in gifted or in honors/accelerated/AP/IB,so if your child is qualified but ranks too low, he's not getting a spot. Schools are not opening additional seats.

 

This was the one of the problems in my district as well. The gifted class was selected at the end of first grade and those kids stayed together until 6th grade. If a child moved into the district after that class was determined in 1st grade, he was out of luck - even if his test scores were higher than the kids in the "gifted" class, there were no additional seats.

 

I believe that most school administrators will be truthful with parents. I came to find out that is not the case in my school district. There are some districts that knowingly break state policies and hope the parents blindly believe the lies they are told. (I guess even 5 years later I still am not over it.:lol:)

[Dmmetler]

One of my friends is a GT self-contained teacher in a FL school, and as she's described it, kids who score high enough on a full evaluation that they have a definitive GT label are automatically placed in her class, and can only be removed by changing the child's IEP. However, most kids in her district never get a full evaluation-they qualify based on the annual test scores and it's simply "OK, we have 6 identified kids and 20 slots in this 5th grade class, therefore the top 14 students get them". She says that it's very frustrating because every year she has kids who were in the GT class in 4th, but who don't qualify for her class in 5th because their state test scores dropped by a point or two, and she is very, very sure that they WOULD qualify if she could get them fully assessed, but unless the parent pays for a private evaluation, it's not going to happen. She also, last year, reported going into the office in tears, to BEG the admin to let her have more students-because she had two wonderful kids who had been in her class starting in August, but in January two kids transferred in who had the IEP and therefore had to be placed in her class-and she didn't want to lose the kids who now would be pushed out.

 

There are also different bars for different groups, so it is entirely possible that a 98% child in one group wouldn't qualify, and a 90% child in another would.

Edited September 13, 2012 by dmmetler

[Bang!Zoom!]

I would have had alarm bells going off also. Big ones.

 

Deafening actually.

[TranquilMind]

Exactly.

 

That's the big problem with many public schools...it's called 'winner take all'. Only so many seats are available in gifted or in honors/accelerated/AP/IB,so if your child is qualified but ranks too low, he's not getting a spot. At that point the student can homeschool, afterschool, or take distance learning and hope someone drops out or transfers. I afterschooled my son in AP English Language last year. He got lucky and someone dropped so he's in AP English Lit this year, after being denied admission to the honors/AP track for five years despite his test scores being in the top 5%. The criteria here is test score plus teacher rec plus CogAT, and staff & politician's children are seated first. Ds's class has an unusually high number of staff children, so many students with excellent test scores have been denied seats in the classes that are instructionally where they need to be. Schools are not opening additional seats.

 

 

This is SO stupid that I can hardly believe it. :001_huh:

 

Thank God for homeschooling and co-ops where WE decide where our children belong. Mine have always been in classes with kids years ahead of them. I guess in public school they would have just sat there, twiddling their thumbs.

[TranquilMind]

When we moved into our district, I asked to see the procedure for how kids were selected for the "gifted" program. I was told that the school does not release the procedure to the parents because the selection process is too difficult for the parents to understand.:glare:

 

 

 

Yeah, that REALLY makes a lot of sense, especially for the multitude of us who are more educated and have more degrees than the school staff.

 

:confused:

[snowbeltmom]

Yeah, that REALLY makes a lot of sense, especially for the multitude of us who are more educated and have more degrees than the school staff.

 

:confused:

The arrogance at the administrative level in our public school system is mind boggling. I am convinced that the individual who made that statement to me actually believes it.

[snowbeltmom]

Even stupider is the story coming out of TJ regarding selection for advanced math courses.

.

:bigear:

[Mmoodies2121]

I ended up canceling the appointment this morning after I realized that to test him, they expected me to enroll him in PS first (thereby removing him as a homeschooler with the district.)

The problem with that scenario is if he didn't meet their criteria for the gifted program, they intended to out him in a combined 2nd/3rd grade classroom. We pulled him halfway through 2nd, he finished 2nd as a homeschooler, and *should* be in 3rd this year. The explanation I received is due to so many students (we are near a military base and received a new squadron this summer so more families entering the area) and all 2nd and 3rd grade classes are full. The kids leftover weren't enough for a whole class so they combined them. DS would do 3rd grade work but "would have the opportunity to do any 2nd grade work he missed...because Florida's standards are much different than homeschool curriculum." :glare:

In kindergarten, (same district) they ignored me when I told them he'd be bored and to give him more work. 3 weeks in, they asked to move him to a combined k/1st grade class so he could do 1st grade work (and they could move a child in that class back down to kindergarten.)

So now they're talking about remediation for him in 2nd grade material. What I heard was they'd pacify the mama by testing and then put him wherever they wanted.

Sorry, no dice. Luckily DH partially climbed on board after hearing all this and we're going to wait this out some more. I don't see me being comfortable with putting DS there anytime soon.

[Truscifi]

I ended up canceling the appointment this morning after I realized that to test him, they expected me to enroll him in PS first (thereby removing him as a homeschooler with the district.)

The problem with that scenario is if he didn't meet their criteria for the gifted program, they intended to out him in a combined 2nd/3rd grade classroom. We pulled him halfway through 2nd, he finished 2nd as a homeschooler, and *should* be in 3rd this year. The explanation I received is due to so many students (we are near a military base and received a new squadron this summer so more families entering the area) and all 2nd and 3rd grade classes are full. The kids leftover weren't enough for a whole class so they combined them. DS would do 3rd grade work but "would have the opportunity to do any 2nd grade work he missed...because Florida's standards are much different than homeschool curriculum." :glare:

In kindergarten, (same district) they ignored me when I told them he'd be bored and to give him more work. 3 weeks in, they asked to move him to a combined k/1st grade class so he could do 1st grade work (and they could move a child in that class back down to kindergarten.)

So now they're talking about remediation for him in 2nd grade material. What I heard was they'd pacify the mama by testing and then put him wherever they wanted.

Sorry, no dice. Luckily DH partially climbed on board after hearing all this and we're going to wait this out some more. I don't see me being comfortable with putting DS there anytime soon.

 

It sounds like this school district is not one you want to deal with if possible. That being said, I'm pretty sure this violates state law and if you wanted to push the issue you could do so. I had to be very...assertive...to get ds tested through the school system here. I even went so far as to threaten to involve an attorney who specializes in education cases. Fortunately, once I did I was able to work with the principal of one of the local schools who is very reasonable and willing to work with parents of ps and hs students alike so the kids get what they need - I knew a lot about her because several other hs families had dealt with her in the past. If there had not been someone like her on the other end of all that mess I doubt I would have bothered.

 

ETA: Your ds doesn't have to be an enrolled student to be tested. You can also potentially talk to the FPEA contact person for your district for help, even if you aren't an FPEA member.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Truscifi

[Barb_]

...And that is one of the big reasons why we began homeschooling 17 years ago.

[TranquilMind]

Mmoodies: The kids leftover weren't enough for a whole class so they combined them. DS would do 3rd grade work but "would have the opportunity to do any 2nd grade work he missed...because Florida's standards are much different than homeschool curriculum." :glare:

 

Yeah, I just bet they are. Probably far lower. Your kid should probably be a 6th grader if you went by skill level . ;) They really don't know anything about home schoolers, do they?

 

In kindergarten, (same district) they ignored me when I told them he'd be bored and to give him more work. 3 weeks in, they asked to move him to a combined k/1st grade class so he could do 1st grade work (and they could move a child in that class back down to kindergarten.)

So now they're talking about remediation for him in 2nd grade material. What I heard was they'd pacify the mama by testing and then put him wherever they wanted.

 

Oh, heck no. This is why young children don't belong in school, in my opinion. When they are older, they have some pull themselves as well as a track record, but they are just pawns when they are little.

 

Sorry, no dice. Luckily DH partially climbed on board after hearing all this and we're going to wait this out some more. I don't see me being comfortable with putting DS there anytime soon.

 

Good decision.

[Mmoodies2121]

Yeah, I just bet they are. Probably far lower. Your kid should probably be a 6th grader if you went by skill level . ;) They really don't know anything about home schoolers, do they?

 

I almost asked if she was referring our the FCAT scores (our state's standardized testing) because if so, our county had a 55% "satisfactory" rate (passing.) which meant the other 45% of children failed...but our superintendent is on record as pleased with the results. Granted, I'm not a big proponent of standardized testing, but if they're going to use it as the bar by which to measure, that's not so great, ya know? :D

[Crimson Wife]

The district where we lived from 2006-2009 had far more students who qualified for the lone GATE class than slots available. I never could get a straight answer from district administrators as to how students were selected from among the qualifiers. I heard rumors that students from "underrepresented" demographics automatically got a seat and only after those were filled were the remaining children considered :glare: But I don't know if that is true or just idle chatter.