Late Bloomers? Hoping for Encouragement.

[Mom0012]

I have a child who has an expressive language disorder. For the most part, he does very well. He is social and always has had friends. He is not "cool", but he is very likeable. He has to work hard academically, but usually scores in the 90s on his tests. He has some special interests like history, legos and coin collecting.

 

He does struggle terribly with expressing himself and with writing. He uses IEW for writing and I started having a friend tutor him last year a couple of hours a week because I just didn't feel I could help him.

 

He hit puberty early and is probably through many of the physical changes he is going to make, but I don't really feel he is in the logic stage even though he is 13. I guess this is my biggest concern at the moment. He is a very concrete thinker and he can share all kinds of interesting facts about what he has learned. He can even write a half decent paper on something he has researched after this last year of tutoring.

 

BUT, he seems incapable of coming up with original ideas, and he has a heck of a time answering "why" questions. For example, we are using SL science this year and he was asked, "Does he think differently now than when he was 4 and is that a good thing?" He answered "yes". He said it was a good thing because 4 year olds can live in a fantasy world and don't have to worry about things. It took 15 minutes of discussion for him to come out and make the connection I thought he should have made -- That it is a good thing because it means he has learned over the years and maturity and growth are needed to function in the world as you get older.

 

Interestingly, he enjoys strategy games and beats me at chess every time and he holds his ground with other boys his age with these types of games. So it seems to be more of a problem with making connections where language is concerned.

 

He also is tuned in to other people's feelings. We knew a child that was really struggling and behaved horribly. One day, after we spent time with the child, my son said, "Mom, I realized today that "Tom" is really reaching out to me and that I've been pushing him away. I'm going to try a lot harder with him." He was 9 at the time and ever since then, he's been like a big brother to this kid.

 

It is almost impossible to get an opinion out of him. There was something I read to both my kids the other day and I said I found it a little disturbing. My dd agreed (she is only 10) and told me why she found it was disturbing. The reason she gave was the same reason I would have given. My son had a difficult time even saying whether or not he found it disturbing. In the end, he said he didn't but he couldn't tell me why.

 

Anyway, if you got through all of that, thank you! I know it's long, but I wanted to share the positives along with the concerns. I guess what I'm looking for here is some hope that he is going to hit the logic stage. That he will be able to do some critical thinking. Anyone have a child like this and develop these traits later on?

 

Lisa

[PeterPan]

Bloom time is affected by fertilizer. You find out the right kind of fertilizer by finding out the kind of plant you have (evals).

[Mom0012]

Bloom time is affected by fertilizer. You find out the right kind of fertilizer by finding out the kind of plant you have (evals).

 

We've had evals and spent thousands of dollars and hours on therapy. I think we've maxed out our resources in this area and I'm not sure we'd see much more benefit by continuing down that path. Overall, I think my son is doing exceptional considering where he began. I am really so proud of him. Just a little worried still.

 

Lisa

[PeterPan]

Some of that is partly gender I think. I don't think *I* would have concluded the things you were talking about from that SL reading/discussion, and his comments seem pretty reasonable. Is he getting time to do things he does well? I would make sure his school work isn't too girly. On the one hand there's this whole male-ification of history, etc. that I fight against with my dd, trying to get her studies that suit girls. On the other hand, you have all these women teachers who want to go into the souls of boys and pull out feelings and emotions and stuff they don't care about.

 

Have you tried poetry with him? There are collections of poetry for men. Some the selections in Pudewa's poetry memory program are very boy-friendly. Somebody on the boards here I think suggested poetry was a way to give words to feelings for males who might not find it easy to express those feelings otherwise. I think it was LoriD that said that. Somebody did.

[PeterPan]

Just a little worried still.

 

Lisa

 

I think there's academic progress and there's just their blooming as a PERSON, and those two things are kind of different. Is he finding his own interests or showing initiative or trying to help Dad with projects or doing other things that show him blossoming as a person? That's what's going to make you feel better, because that's what's ultimately going to hold him as a person. This school stuff is temporary.

 

BTW, you did see the long glorious thread about Cindy Gaddis' book where they went all into this, right? It's down the boards somewhere.

[jeninok]

My DS has several issues going, we know for sure he is ADD-I, and probably Aspie, or NVLD, although he is also quite gifted so things get muddled up and I just try to meet him where he is in each aspect of his emotional and academic needs.

 

 

That being said, at 11, I am seeing huge changes in his maturity levels, ability to cope with frustration and difficulty, and ability to communicate on a calm and without misreading every single thing people said to him.

 

We get through nearly everyday without tears and meltdowns, without total confusion on his part, and with some real effort being put into assigments.

 

Frankly it feels like a miracle.

 

That being said, while he is quite a deep thinker about things, when it comes to school assignments and connecting the dots with things he has read or finding the big picture of stories whether verbal or written, he struggles mightily.

 

Last week he initiated a discussion about black holes, and was coming up with pretty amazing theories based on scientific thinking, but yesterday when discussing the book he is reading, his answers went no deeper than exactly what was written on the page.

Edited September 11, 2012 by jeninok

[Mom0012]

Some of that is partly gender I think. I don't think *I* would have concluded the things you were talking about from that SL reading/discussion, and his comments seem pretty reasonable. Is he getting time to do things he does well? I would make sure his school work isn't too girly. On the one hand there's this whole male-ification of history, etc. that I fight against with my dd, trying to get her studies that suit girls. On the other hand, you have all these women teachers who want to go into the souls of boys and pull out feelings and emotions and stuff they don't care about.

 

Have you tried poetry with him? There are collections of poetry for men. Some the selections in Pudewa's poetry memory program are very boy-friendly. Somebody on the boards here I think suggested poetry was a way to give words to feelings for males who might not find it easy to express those feelings otherwise. I think it was LoriD that said that. Somebody did.

 

Yeah, I don't think I've given great examples. He really has trouble answering open-ended questions or any questions that involve a "why". The last time that he was working intensely in a therapy program, the therapist commented that he didn't make logical leaps for more abstract questions. The writing tutor has commented that he can only work on a very concrete level. He never asks why anything is. He is more focused on facts, which I see as grammar stage development. I am just hoping he will move into the logic stage, even if it is on the late side.

 

As far as the SL question, he didn't really answer the question, which was okay. I'm not asking for perfection. I think I was more concerned that when I told him the question was why is it good that he doesn't think like a 4 year old, not why is it nice to think like a 4 year old, he acted like I was asking him how long it would take to travel around the earth 6 times.

 

I don't think his curriclum is "girly", but I'll think about that. He's memorized the first two levels of Pudewa's poems, which are great.

 

Lisa

[Mom0012]

I think there's academic progress and there's just their blooming as a PERSON, and those two things are kind of different. Is he finding his own interests or showing initiative or trying to help Dad with projects or doing other things that show him blossoming as a person? That's what's going to make you feel better, because that's what's ultimately going to hold him as a person. This school stuff is temporary.

 

BTW, you did see the long glorious thread about Cindy Gaddis' book where they went all into this, right? It's down the boards somewhere.

 

Thanks! I'll have to look up that thread. I didn't see it.

 

He is blooming as a person. He's a great kid. I think this will and has affected him more than just on an academic level, though. It has a huge impact on his conversational skills and being able to join in on discussions. I think that will only be more true as he gets older if something doesn't change.

 

I've got to run out for awhile. I check back on this thread later. Thanks, ladies!

 

Lisa

[peacefully]

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[peacefully]

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[PeterPan]

For example, he may not be able to do much of a WWE-style narration, but once he starts doing a more open-ended discussion or retelling of something that we have read, perhaps using some props or after drawing a picture, he is able to show that he picked up and understood some pretty nuanced, even abstract, details. That's the sort adjustments that I've had to make to help him get to the information in his head.

 

One more thing. I read more replies after I posted. I wonder if you notice a difference in the way that your son responds if he perceives that there are right and wrong answers. Our SLP spent a lot of time explaining to me that ELD kids tend to have accompanying anxiety or rigidity that can make their language issues much worse. "High-stakes" situations or questions seeking narrow answers are two types of circumstances that can impede fluency and retrieval for these kids, because their affective issues come into play as much as their language-specific processing difficulties.

 

Sometimes they're busy processing something *else* that isn't valued in the curriculum or the list of study guide questions. Also, I don't know if your evaluators suggested this, but giving him those questions ahead of time can make them less threatening and give him time to process.

[Mom0012]

My DS has several issues going, we know for sure he is ADD-I, and probably Aspie, or NVLD, although he is also quite gifted so things get muddled up and I just try to meet him where he is in each aspect of his emotional and academic needs.

 

 

That being said, at 11, I am seeing huge changes in his maturity levels, ability to cope with frustration and difficulty, and ability to communicate on a calm and without misreading every single thing people said to him.

 

We get through nearly everyday without tears and meltdowns, without total confusion on his part, and with some real effort being put into assigments.

 

Frankly it feels like a miracle.

 

That being said, while he is quite a deep thinker about things, when it comes to school assignments and connecting the dots with things he has read or finding the big picture of stories whether verbal or written, he struggles mightily.

 

Last week he initiated a discussion about black holes, and was coming up with pretty amazing theories based on scientific thinking, but yesterday when discussing the book he is reading, his answers went no deeper than exactly what was written on the page.

 

Thanks for sharing this. I have seen some academic improvements in my son this year. His handwriting has gone from total sludge to pretty darn legible and he is no longer making lots of glitchy mistakes most days. I think it is due to maturity and him taking the time and putting in the effort to be more careful.

 

Lisa

[Mom0012]

I wanted to thank you for writing this. My ds just turned 8, and he has an expressive language disorder. Like your son, he is sociable, well-liked, does well academically, and is remarkably empathetic. He is also a bit of reluctant writer and continues to have difficulty expressing himself. Obviously, I have no BTDT advice for you, given that my son is so much younger, but I've been encouraged by the ways that my ds is developing his expressive language skills recently. I've noticed significant improvement in his ability to relate events sequentially, use very specific vocabulary, be able to support his assertions with further explanation, and even address specific recall questions (this was a huge stickler for him and still not easy!).

 

I think it's really important to remember that for kids with these issues, "logic stage" critical thinking is developing but that they are having difficulty accessing or retrieving the information that they want when they need it for speech. I've noticed that my ds can do non-verbal logical puzzles, has zero issues with comprehension or critical thinking when he has multiple choice answers, or becomes remarkably more fluent when he has access to props to help him visually organize his thinking. Lately, his drawings have served the same purpose. Our SLP encouraged me early on to try to tease apart his language issues while assessing his progress in academic subjects. It's tricky, but after getting professional "permission" (actually, it was more of an admonition, maybe downright insistence) to try to understand my son's learning this way, I realized that he knows so much more than he's really capable of expressing in certain contexts. For example, he may not be able to do much of a WWE-style narration, but once he starts doing a more open-ended discussion or retelling of something that we have read, perhaps using some props or after drawing a picture, he is able to show that he picked up and understood some pretty nuanced, even abstract, details. That's the sort adjustments that I've had to make to help him get to the information in his head.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to post here and connect with another mom with a ELD kid. It's been difficult to find information about this disorder or research strategies or programs that work specifically for these types of issues. I also wanted to say that it sounds like your son is doing really well. I taught middle school language arts for several years, and there were PLENTY of kids who had difficulty with abstract thinking, supporting their opinions, and making connections between seemingly unrelated concepts.

 

Thank you, Yllek. It is difficult sometimes to differentiate between the language issues and other things. My son has excellent comprehension and understanding of many subjects, but struggles so much to get his ideas across. I know when he was just a little guy, like maybe 4, he said something to me that made me think "it's all in there, he just can't get it out". That was a tremendous eye-opener for me at the time.

 

I feel so sad for him sometimes, because he has an incredible knowledge base and is interested in so many things, but to talk to him, you would never know that.

 

Lisa

[Mom0012]

One more thing. I read more replies after I posted. I wonder if you notice a difference in the way that your son responds if he perceives that there are right and wrong answers. Our SLP spent a lot of time explaining to me that ELD kids tend to have accompanying anxiety or rigidity that can make their language issues much worse. "High-stakes" situations or questions seeking narrow answers are two types of circumstances that can impede fluency and retrieval for these kids, because their affective issues come into play as much as their language-specific processing difficulties.

 

 

This is a great reminder and something I am trying to be more aware of. My son's communication abilities plummet when he feels stress, pressure or is tired. If I can see that he is feeling stressed, I've started just putting my hand on his shoulder and having him take some deep breaths. As he is faced with more thinking-type questions at this age, I have found myself telling him more frequently that there is no right or wrong answer, that it is just his opinion.

 

Lisa

[peacefully]

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[NittanyJen]

You could all be, with the addition of low muscle tone, describing my son.

 

For us, getting a genetic test done and discovering he had a not-at-all-rare chromosomal arrangement (1/500 boys has an extra X or Y chromosome; mine has the extra X, which is the most common-- this is more common than Down's Syndrome) was a huge relief, because now we had an explanation of what was going on (not to mention, there are treatments, and we were in time to get them).

 

expressive language disorder, speech delays, low muscle tone, difficulty writing (or dysgraphia, a more severe complication that not everyone has), executive function issues, auditory processing issues, sensory sensitivities, but still the capacity to be quite bright, in various combinations, are hallmarks of the possibility of an extra X chromosome.

 

(note, i did say the possibility; lots of other stuff can make those things happen too, including someone just being on his own curve. However, having an extra X and not knowing it can delay critical treatment, and fewer than 25% of kids with this arrangement are identified during childhood at present time, because docs are not very good at catching it right now-- there is no physical "look" to them, though some have a slightly inward-bent joint on one or both pinkies).

[jeninok]

I actually tried to get our pediatrician to test for the extra X as it seems so fitting for DS, but he pretty much wrote me off. I am trying to find a developmental pediatrician or endocrinologist that will take DS without a year long wait.

[RamonaQ]

I think it's really important to remember that for kids with these issues, "logic stage" critical thinking is developing but that they are having difficulty accessing or retrieving the information that they want when they need it for speech. I've noticed that my ds can do non-verbal logical puzzles, has zero issues with comprehension or critical thinking when he has multiple choice answers, or becomes remarkably more fluent when he has access to props to help him visually organize his thinking.

 

 

Like yllek,I am wondering if your son is indeed capable of abstract thinking, but perhaps you are evaluating it only through language? Algebra would be one area that you would begin to see abstract thinking.

 

I also wanted to mention graphic organizers, using models of responses, and providing templates that start the sentence to try to trigger the response ( such as, "I believe......"; "The character believes......") might be helpful when you are working with him.

 

Otherwise, I have nothing but empathy since it is scary. I know I also spend a fair amount of time fretting about what my ds's future will hold. (Maybe it is also something about having a 13 yo???? My ds is also 13).

[Mom0012]

You could all be, with the addition of low muscle tone, describing my son.

 

For us, getting a genetic test done and discovering he had a not-at-all-rare chromosomal arrangement (1/500 boys has an extra X or Y chromosome; mine has the extra X, which is the most common-- this is more common than Down's Syndrome) was a huge relief, because now we had an explanation of what was going on (not to mention, there are treatments, and we were in time to get them).

 

expressive language disorder, speech delays, low muscle tone, difficulty writing (or dysgraphia, a more severe complication that not everyone has), executive function issues, auditory processing issues, sensory sensitivities, but still the capacity to be quite bright, in various combinations, are hallmarks of the possibility of an extra X chromosome.

 

(note, i did say the possibility; lots of other stuff can make those things happen too, including someone just being on his own curve. However, having an extra X and not knowing it can delay critical treatment, and fewer than 25% of kids with this arrangement are identified during childhood at present time, because docs are not very good at catching it right now-- there is no physical "look" to them, though some have a slightly inward-bent joint on one or both pinkies).

 

Interesting. My son has low muscle tone as well. What are the treatments for boys with an extra X chromosome? And by what age must they be done?

 

Thanks!

Lisa

 

ETA: I found an article on this subject and my son doesn't seem to fit the physical characteristics, but I guess that may not mean anything since symptoms can be varied. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/31/health/personal-health-the-havoc-of-an-undetected-extra-chromosome.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm He did see an endocrinologist not that long ago and his hormone levels were normal, but maybe I'll ask about the genetic testing next time he goes to the doctor.

Edited September 13, 2012 by LisaTheresa