How to know when they are struggling or....

[Mandylubug]

My oldest son is way behind in math. He FREAKS out when we speak of borrowing and regrouping, etc... He doesn't do well with memorization and is ADHD with kinesthetic tendencies. We have changed three different curriculums and have now found his "breaking" point with this one. I KNOW he can do it if he would just stop telling himself he can't. At what point do I throw in the towel and say I am not capable of teaching him this?

 

We are seriously considering placing him in a charter school at the moment due to the power struggles we have over math alone. At what point is the point of no return? The point where he is severely behind in math? I am at a loss.

[Dory]

Is there anyone else you could trade services with that would work with him. Sometimes it the kid will try harder for someone else or someone else might explain it differently. :grouphug:

[Mandylubug]

Is there anyone else you could trade services with that would work with him. Sometimes it the kid will try harder for someone else or someone else might explain it differently. :grouphug:

 

Unfortunately, he has worked the best for me. My Aunt is a retired "Math Specialist" her job was helping remedial kids in the school. He doesn't respond to her as well. I don't know of any one else that would be qualified nor do I have any close homeschool families here

 

The reason why we pulled him out of PS was because he was hanging out with the wrong crowd and was relying on classmates to get through his work. That was really evident after I brought him home.

 

The charter school I found that has room for him works on individual plans per student and they are grouped in grade clusters so 4th and 5th graders are taught together, etc. So, it sounds interesting.

[OrganicAnn]

Have you tried working on dealing with stress. Things like coping mechanism - deep breathing, counting to ten, a brief stretch. If he is freaking out with you, he will probably freak out at school. Have you tried have your DH teach him math?

 

Have you tried adding more math each day only in smaller chunks. Or adding different types of math : Life of Fred in addition to whatever you are doing. Play cards. Do projects that require real life math.

 

Since you said he has ADHD, I suppose you've had him specifically diagnosed. Did they give you any strategies or ideas for how to work with his ADHD.

 

Charter schools tend not to work with kids with special challenges. But everyone is different.

Edited September 10, 2012 by OrganicAnn

[dbmamaz]

The woman who runs the living math website went full-on living math (using math readers and not doing any problems) for most of elementary because math was not going well for her son. after taking the stress off and going over and over concepts with different readers, when she finally went back to curriculum, he was fine. could you consider something like that?

 

for a while my challenging kid did some math on time4learning and we read a lot of readers from the library. Murderous Maths were popular, too.

 

sometimes getting over the fear is more important than 'keeping up' - after all, most of middle school is usually spent re-learning what they didnt remember from elementary

[Mandylubug]

Have you tried working on dealing with stress. Things like coping mechanism - deep breathing, counting to ten, a brief stretch. If he is freaking out with you, he will probably freak out at school. Have you tried have your DH teach him math?

 

Have you tried adding more math each day only in smaller chunks. Or adding different types of math : Life of Fred in addition to whatever you are doing. Play cards. Do projects that require real life math.

 

Since you said he has ADHD, I suppose you've had him specifically diagnosed. Did they give you any strategies or ideas for how to work with his ADHD.

 

Charter schools tend not to work with kids with special challenges. But everyone is different.

 

those are great questions. Yes, he has been diagnosed by a school psychologist in conjunction with his primary doctor. I refused an IEP and refused medicating at the time. If I feel he can't cope without medication further down the road we may look at medicating. I just don't want to go there.

 

All strategies when it comes to math is "cut the work sheet into "bite size" pieces" or "give him something to play with in his hands while he works" "allow him to stand and work" all of these strategies don't address the stress of beginning the work. He does great while I teach something with the board. He can walk through it and discuss it with me but he struggles on his own with little things like 8-5.. He knows 8-5 any time other than doing his work but when its time to actually write down an answer on his own he shuts down. I think it is fear that he will be wrong. Other times he says he knows the answer but can't stop thinking to write it down.

 

DH teaching math is like the blind leading the blind. He is ADHD as well and impatient. He could teach it if he wasn't so high strung. He has a full plate right now with going to college full time and working 50-60 hours a week.

 

I may check into Life of Fred. I had forgotten about that. We have been learning grammar through MCT and the story/thinking format of it all has been a blessing for him. We were speaking of alliteration just today and he would have never grasped it prior to MCT.

[GoodGrief]

Is it possible that he has an undiagnosed learning disability specific to math? Dyscalculia?

 

ED: posted this before you posted more info re: ADHD. :-)

Edited September 11, 2012 by Gr8lander

[Mandylubug]

The woman who runs the living math website went full-on living math (using math readers and not doing any problems) for most of elementary because math was not going well for her son. after taking the stress off and going over and over concepts with different readers, when she finally went back to curriculum, he was fine. could you consider something like that?

 

for a while my challenging kid did some math on time4learning and we read a lot of readers from the library. Murderous Maths were popular, too.

 

sometimes getting over the fear is more important than 'keeping up' - after all, most of middle school is usually spent re-learning what they didnt remember from elementary

 

thank you for that! I will check that website out. I keep thinking Sheesh he is 10, in 6 years he should grasp algebra.. omgosh learn faster kid!

[Mandylubug]

Is it possible that he has an undiagnosed learning disability specific to math? Dyscalculia?

 

Lord, that would make me get myself tested if that was the case. I remember being in 2nd grade up at 9pm and being screamed at by my dad that I would never make it into college since I was so "math dumb" ha ha. I did eventually learn algebra 1 and 2 but it really was my limits when it came to math. We celebrated and went out to eat when I passed college Algebra with a 79; it was THAT hard for me. So if he was diagnosed with that I would be PISSED to think that I struggled with myself all those years thinking I was just dumb, lol.

 

Who tests for dyscalculia?

[tex-mex]

Yes, he has been diagnosed by a school psychologist in conjunction with his primary doctor. I refused an IEP and refused medicating at the time. If I feel he can't cope without medication further down the road we may look at medicating. I just don't want to go there.

 

As a former schoolteacher who specialized in at risk students and IEPs... it honestly sounds like you are dealing with an IEP/Learning Disability/Processing issue. Have you ever taken him to get an official diagnosis (schools cannot diagnose) like at a Shriner's Hospital for free? A Neuropsych?

 

If you are having issues now... wait 'til he hits junior high and the curriculum amps up. His self esteem may also take a hit and he may act out. I would get him evaluated ASAP rather than put him in a charter school. Get the eval/dx and then make plans. He may need meds just to be able to sit/focus and do the work too.

[Mandylubug]

As a former schoolteacher who specialized in at risk students and IEPs... it honestly sounds like you are dealing with an IEP/Learning Disability/Processing issue. Have you ever taken him to get an official diagnosis (schools cannot diagnose) like at a Shriner's Hospital for free? A Neuropsych?

 

If you are having issues now... wait 'til he hits junior high and the curriculum amps up. His self esteem may also take a hit and he may act out. I would get him evaluated ASAP rather than put him in a charter school. Get the eval/dx and then make plans. He may need meds just to be able to sit/focus and do the work too.

 

thank you. I have considerd further evaluation multiple times (on the bad days) and then the good days talk me down. Didn't know Shriner's Hospitals offered the screenings for free? hmm something to consider. I may research what is available to me in Atlanta.

[....]

My oldest son is way behind in math. He FREAKS out when we speak of borrowing and regrouping, etc... He doesn't do well with memorization and is ADHD with kinesthetic tendencies. We have changed three different curriculums and have now found his "breaking" point with this one. I KNOW he can do it if he would just stop telling himself he can't. At what point do I throw in the towel and say I am not capable of teaching him this?

 

We are seriously considering placing him in a charter school at the moment due to the power struggles we have over math alone. At what point is the point of no return? The point where he is severely behind in math? I am at a loss.

 

Hi, is this your 9 yro?

 

I wouldn't do a charter school because of this...that might make the situation worse.

 

I don't know anything about LDs, but there are several knowledgeable people here that do.

 

Have you heard of Visual-Spatial Learners? If you do a thread search, there have been several threads about this. After years of hair-pulling math hysteria, I finally realized that my son is a VSL.

 

If my son didn't have some sort of math manipulative in hand, he could not visualize the problem. He could not memorize his math facts. Also, he would do really strange things- like write the answer to one math problem under a different problem. He might say, "The answer is 32," and then write "65". It was really bizarre. Worksheets full of print or problems were too overwhelming for him. At some point, I couldn't take it anymore and I dropped ALL math curriculum.

 

Like a previous poster suggested, we also spent that time doing living math. http://www.livingmath.net I also bought a big set of Base 10 blocks, Cuisinaire rods, those plastic shape-thingies (we've used those with perimeter/area problems), dice, a dry erase board and the Kitchen Table Math series. We started doing a LOT of hands-on math videos - http://www.educationunboxed.com is my favorite right now...there's also the Crewton Ramone website. We practiced skip-counting with the Cuisinaire rods. Working with the KTM series, I showed him subtraction with regrouping using the Cuisinaire rods (I think that's when it really started to click). We started playing math games with dice...building towers with C-rods...addend towers...etc. I tried to make math very no-pressure and fun (if that really is possible :tongue_smilie: ).

 

My son made huge leaps in math.

 

Over the summer, my son started using a math curriculum again. He uses Life of Fred and Beast Academy. He just finished Beast Academy 3A. He's actually done really well with it. He's able to solve the problems on his own (mostly). My son would probably be considered behind in math right now - but he's catching up. I would rather move slowly through math - and he understand how it works - than to barrel through a curriculum with no real understanding. Also, Life of Fred really gets on my nerves, but my son remembers all kinds of things that are linked to the stories. My older daughter was trying to remember what a Prime Number was and my son told her (he remembered from one of the LoF books - LOL). And he had an incredible way of visualizing it - using the "shape" of the number...

 

Once they lose all confidence in their ability to do math, it is really difficult to get them past that "wall". :( LDs aside, I also think alot of boys have a hard time with abstract ideas.

[sbgrace]

I would pursue testing for learning disabilities. You can't address what you don't know. Further, just the knowledge may protect his self esteem as a learner if indeed there is a learning disability.

[Alicia64]

We are seriously considering placing him in a charter school at the moment due to the power struggles we have over math alone. At what point is the point of no return? The point where he is severely behind in math? I am at a loss.

 

I have twin nine year olds and one is somewhat ahead in math and one is an awful lot like your boy.

 

If I were in your position I wouldn't put him in a charter school because of math -- unless all of the subjects are this challenging -- I would use a tutoring program. In our community they have one called Aloha, Mathnaseum etc. I don't know which one is "good."

 

Also, both of my boys stopped complaining about math as much when we moved from MathUSee to Teaching Textbooks. It's done really well -- and the cd rom does the teaching -- not me. Before you do anything I hope you'll look into Teaching Textbooks.

 

Also, if you have time -- ha --in your schedule you might want to read Quinn Cummings new homeschool book called A Year of Living Dangerously. It's not a how-to book at all. But she pulls her girl out of fourth grade because of this very problem. It's a funny read and I thought it might help bring some levity to the situation.

 

Also, SWB's audios are really good to listen to. They're only $4 -- one of them talks about giving the kid some time off from a subject when there's this many tears before beginning again. You might want to check out her audios.

 

One last "also," when my I-hate-math son is in full frustration mode I order him to take a shower, read fifteen mins. worth of Calvin & Hobbes, go outside and build a sandcastle -- anything that helps his stormy mood cloud pass by. And I'm using this math/bad mood experience as a teaching moment on how to deal with bad moods/bad feelings. I've pointed out how often the bad moods pass and how we can help them pass faster with a good shower, good book etc. I think in some ways that this lesson is even more important than math for being human for years to come. :)

 

Good luck -- I know it's hard.

 

Alley

[merry gardens]

Lord, that would make me get myself tested if that was the case. I remember being in 2nd grade up at 9pm and being screamed at by my dad that I would never make it into college since I was so "math dumb" ha ha. I did eventually learn algebra 1 and 2 but it really was my limits when it came to math. We celebrated and went out to eat when I passed college Algebra with a 79; it was THAT hard for me. So if he was diagnosed with that I would be PISSED to think that I struggled with myself all those years thinking I was just dumb, lol.

 

Who tests for dyscalculia?

When you go for his testing, make sure to mention that story from your own youth.

 

Since he already has a diagnosis of ADHD, to do further testing, I suggest you search for a neuropsych who is friendly to homeschooling. A good neuropsych could help pull the whole picture together.

[Ellie]

Bless his heart. :grouphug:

 

Given his past history, I wouldn't *even* consider public school, regardless of how good the charter school sounds.

 

Of course, I'm an unschooler, and I deal with stress in homeschooling differently than many, :D but since you asked, here's my advice:

 

Put the math away for awhile. Having a sense of urgency that he needs to be ready for algebra in *six years* has clearly not helped up to now, right? Then do something really different (definition of insanity: continuing to do the same thing but expecting different results).

 

Read this article: The Story of an Experiment.

 

The author has a scope and sequence for teaching arithmetic.

 

In awhile--I don't know how long, but longer than a week or two--try Mathematics Made Meaningful. It uses Cuisenaire rods, and starts with the very basics: dump all the rods on the table; sort them according to size; mess them all up, then sort them by color. Wow--same piles! :) It doesn't feel like math at all, no explaining problems on the white board, nothin', just C-rods and task cards. I *love* MMM, and I am not a mathy person.

 

Don't underestimate the mathiness board games that use dice, fun and simple games like Life, or Parcheesi. Playing jacks, besides being good for hand-to-eye coordination, requires players to look for groups of jacks to pick up all in one fell-swoop--2s, 3s, 4s, etc.

 

Check out the Wonder Number Learning System. I also love this one.

[Ottakee]

those are great questions. Yes, he has been diagnosed by a school psychologist in conjunction with his primary doctor. I refused an IEP and refused medicating at the time. If I feel he can't cope without medication further down the road we may look at medicating. I just don't want to go there.

 

.

 

I would seriously consider a trial of medication along with a full neuropsych evaluation. It sounds like he isn't coping well now. I know that the meds have a bad rap (esp. in the homeschooling community) but I have personally seen kids finally be able to LEARN and learn well once they could focus on the work.

 

My own daughter gained over 2 years of academic skills in 6 months once we started meds. I have seen other kids in school experience the same thing.

 

You might want to check over on the learning challenges board.

[hillfarm]

My dd struggled with the borrowing stuff a bit also. What really clicked with her was using money as the manipulative! I got a bunch of dimes, tens and ones from the bank and we started working out math problems. She quickly learned how to "borrow and unpack" a $10 or a $1 if she needed to work out a problem. She was a money hungry little kid, so the whole concept really resonated with her.

 

Keep working on solving your situation. As others have said, there is no guarantee that your ds would do any better with any other teacher. You may be struggling, but that may be 100x better than how things would go with another teacher, plus all the social pressure and other issues.

[Mandylubug]

Thank you everyone for the advice, encouragement and resources to consider. I actually spoke a good bit with DH, we called and spoke with the Charter school. They called back wanting me to meet, tour and have my boys assessed to see where they fit in their school. At that moment, I knew I was not ready to send them that direction. Honestly, its just a hormonally emotional part of the month, I had my drs. appts this week and I think I was just overwhelmed and when I am overwhelmed I let the kids walk all over me.

 

We did sit down as a family and discuss the purpose of education and progression in skills learned, etc. At times prior, I would give in and have a "free" day if I was just tired and didn't feel like school. I now realize that I was enabling their whining and fussing for school when they aren't "feeling like it." We were blunt with the boys and let them know we were considering other options if they weren't willing to cooperate and work productively at home because we expect them to progress. Both boys voiced their concerns and basically begged not to go to the charter school.

 

Anyway, today was reboot for all of us. We accomplished all of our studies and my son of concern actually did four lessons worth of math today with a smile on his face. DH called from work and praised him for his good work and efforts and of course he is beaming with happiness at the moment.

 

I will definitely check out some of the math resources mentioned above to give variety to the learning.

[Sharon37127]

I just wanted to say that I think it is awesome your husband was willing to call from work, check on him, and praise him. Way to go, dad!

[Mandylubug]

I just wanted to say that I think it is awesome your husband was willing to call from work, check on him, and praise him. Way to go, dad!

 

Yes, he is good about calling them for praises. He works till midnight each night so, he misses out on the "evening" conversations that would typically take place.

[Sharon37127]

Oh man- my husband worked til late like that when we started homeschooling. That was part of the reason why we did. Now he only works til 830pm. That schedule is so rough.

[Mandylubug]

Oh man- my husband worked til late like that when we started homeschooling. That was part of the reason why we did. Now he only works til 830pm. That schedule is so rough.

 

yes, I feel like a single parent some days but with homeschooling, they spend time with their father in the mornings and we school when he leaves at 1pm. It works out good for us because I am not a morning person. We get up and go for a family jog at the track and just leisurely start our day. The kids would NEVER see their father if they were in school. Also, we love spring and fall vacations, spur of the moment mid week flights to D.C., Philly, etc.. that just wouldn't happen if they were in school.

[Trilliums]

thank you for that! I will check that website out. I keep thinking Sheesh he is 10, in 6 years he should grasp algebra.. omgosh learn faster kid!

 

 

I also strongly recommend the Living Math approach.

 

My boys were similar to your son at that age. Going to a hands on, visual and auditory math plan helped tremendously. The problem is that you will not find a neatly prepackaged curriculum that works this way and it can be stressful to venture out on your own without a tidy scope and sequence. :D Livingmath.net has tons of suggestions though.

 

Worksheets at age 10 did not work for my kids. I tried a variety of curriculum, but nothing clicked until my kids were about grade 8. At that time, around age 13, they were not behind in math, but their math education looked nothing like a traditional school education. Their math conceptual understanding was outstanding. Their math fact recall was not as great, but not terrible. They did have some gaps, but we found resources like Khan academy and Art of Problem solving to be wonderful reinforcement for them.

 

My kids started ps this year after 9 years of homeschooling. My 9th grader is in honors Geometry and proudly told me today that he had the second highest score (out of a total of over 100 students) on a recent geometry test. My 10th grader is in Pre-calculus honors and has an A in class so far. When this son was 10 years old, he was a self declared math hater and I worried that he would be forever behind in math. For my kdis though, they did not progress in a nice and linear growth pattern. throughout elementary they were massive sponges, and then my late Jr. High they quickly developed on the output ability (writing, analyzing, workgin through math problems, etc.) Last year DS pushed himself to do Geometry and Alg. 2 so he could accelerate his math sequence. When he was 10 years old, I never imagined he would become such a hard worker in math! I think relaxing on the math curriculum at a younger age and letting the kids explore the interesting aspects of math helped them develop an enjoyment for math.

 

My son was assessed for LDs. Some people told me he was dyslexic, others said he had non-verbal LD. I really do not know WHAT he is, but now as a 10th grader he is taking advanced classes and has developed great academic strengths. He does have weak areas (he works slowly for example) but he enjoys learning and he also strives to do his best. I really could not have asked for a better attitude toward his education.

[Trilliums]

Also, have you looked into Art of Problem Solving (AoPS) Beast Academy? It is a newer program for elementary ages.

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Store/beastacademy.php

 

I do not have any experience with the Beast Academy, but the AoPS Geometry, prealgebra and intro to algebra have been the best math programs for my kids. AoPS develops the WHY behind math. Yes, it is challenging, but the delivery definitely worked from my boys.

[SunnyDays]

:grouphug: Mandy, you haven't had an easy week... it has to be frustrating.

 

I'm so glad today was better. It sounds like you're on the right track. I love the idea of setting curriculum aside for the moment. Get LOF and read through them. Go to the library and get things like Grapes of Math, Sir Cumference, etc. Print some free fact drill sheets off the internet once a week (www.math-drills.com is a good site).

 

Hang in there. :grouphug: