I need help figuring out this whole Halloween thing...

[Scarlett]

People are allowed to grow and change, both within a marriage and after one is over. Religious practices are no exception. OP is allowed to grow and change, and that will trickle down to the kids' lives. Dad does not have the right to keep them under the thumb of his ideas for their entire lives.

 

We aren't talking about their entire lives. We are talking about children--probably young children since the issue is dressing up for Halloween at school.

 

People have the right to parent their children. Even fathers who live in another state.

[lovinmomma]

If compromise is an option, I would leave them in school that day (since you don't really have a choice there!), but not take them out trick-or-treating or to any parties or the other Halloween activities that might be going on. Rent a movie to watch that night instead or go out somewhere.

 

Our schools here don't celebrate "Halloween" - they have "Fall Festival" instead (a little political correctness there I think since we will be well into winter by then). It might be worthwhile to talk to the kids' teachers about how to handle the "not celebrating halloween" thing - possibly your kids aren't the only ones with the issue or adjustments can be made.

 

To my ex it doesn't really matter what you call it. One year a friend of mine and I wanted to do a fall get together on Halloween because the kids were upset about their friends getting to dress up and get candy and not them. We had planned a movie night with pizza and decorating cookies. That did NOT go over well at all. Ex was not happy about it.

 

Maybe taking baby steps?

 

You *can't* take them out of school, and he's out-of-state, so that's one baby step -- this year they can participate in the school's celebration. Maybe you could also hand out candy. Not so much celebrating this year, but acknowledging that other's do as you sort through your own feelings on the issue.

 

If the kids wanted to dress up, perhaps you could baby step that as using what you already own -- sports uniforms, dress up clothes, etc.

 

Since you're still kind of discerning your thoughts, I'd do it low-key this year. You may decide you still wish to not celebrate it the way everyone else does; don't do anything this year that might make it harder to reconcile that in the coming years. Or you may decide you want to embrace the holiday in future years; you can always build on this year by then adding new family traditions.

 

I'd try to compromise where I could with the ex just because it's a belief he's long held and you once did. Compromising this year (even if he doesn't, you can) gives him an opportunity to see that it doesn't have to be the evil or non-necessity he thinks it does. (He may not take that opportunity, but nonetheless you'd have done what you could to provide it.) It gives each of you time to figure out how to handle the holiday moving forward, since it's a grey-area this year.

 

I like this idea a lot. I have no choice but to leave them in school and I don't want them to be the only ones not participating, so I will try to make it as "gentle" as possible.

 

What about instead of calling it "celebrating Halloween" you could just say you are dressing up for "Trick or treat" or "Beggars Night". It might seem like splitting hairs, but we make this distinction in our family, and we allow dress up for t-o-t but nothing gross, scary, dead (excpet historical characters). They usually go as book or tv characters or whatever we can pull together since I never buy costumes. Or princesses. I have at least one princess every year because we have an extensive pretend/dress up/home movie costume collection. Would the ex let them dress up as farmers for farm day at school? Then let them be farmers for Halloween at school. Also, I just think I wouldn't mention what is going on at school for this holiday, or anything that is going on unless asked directly. But also keep in mind that respect is a two way street, and maybe if you go behind his back on this, he will start doing the same.

 

Sorry, sort of rambling

 

It doesn't really matter to him what they dress up as or what it's called for him. It's participating or acknowledging that day. Even an angel wouldn't be ok for him and I respect his beliefs even though they are not my own.

[lovinmomma]

If you can't take them out of school, their dad can't get them, and you don't have a problem with their participation in Halloween events at school, I would let them participate. Making them sit out while telling them their dad doesn't want them to do it, but you don't agree, could just leave them feeling badly toward their dad. Divorce is hard. :grouphug:

 

Yes, it probably would. Divorce sucks. I'm much happier, but it's much more complicated. lol

[Scarlett]

I had a very conservative, controlling father. I have lived that. We all tiptoed around trying not to go against his ideas, which were often peculiar and quite outside the mainstream of the time, and not shared by our mom, trying not to make him angry because we felt threatened by it. My brothers were required to have crew cuts and wear button down shirts, tucked in, with a belt, to be allowed to leave the house for anything. They still feel sad and angry when they see their pictures taken at this age. Our mom never agreed that any of this was necessary but she didn't want to rock the boat.

 

When she finally rocked it, it was very healing, at least for me and for her - the brothers were grown and gone by then. A whole lot of tension left our lives once she decided to have her own mind. What I offer is in the spirit of freedom and healing, based on my own experiences as a child in a similar situation.

 

Naturally you are seeing this poster's situation through the filter of your own life. We all do that. Nothing in the OP indicates the father of these children is like your father. He has a belief about Halloween. He naturally wants to raise his children with that belief. Divorce puts a kink in that---but it is still not abnormal for him to desire it.

 

If your mom didn't agree with any of his beliefs I wonder why she married him. I rephrased that question several times because it is an honest question with no malice, but it comes across on the screen as sort of snarky. :tongue_smilie:

[lovinmomma]

You can get around this easily :D Have them dress up as a historical character or a literary character. Any of the Harry Potter characters? They're in widely-read books so they count. Pirates? Yup, pirates are part of history and literature -- double check for pirates. See where this is going? Just emphasize the educational value of it to your children ;)

 

Oh no. HP would certainly NOT be ok with him.

 

While you don't want to alienate their father (I gather from your post he's still a part of their lives), it's more about legal than social rules. What does your divorce agreement say about decisions regarding school, religion, etc.? Do you legally share those decisions or are both of you supposed to agree?

 

It sounds cold to talk about legalities, but it's really important. If you are supposed to share such decisions and you make one you know he won't like, he could cause problems for you if he's the type that would.

 

If he doesn't get a say, then do what would make you and the kids happy. Or at least, not unhappy.

 

It really isn't mentioned much. We settled outside of court on our own and then had a lawyer draw up what we agreed on.

[lovinmomma]

Well, what do YOU think about celebrating Halloween?

 

I just think that too much control and restriction can lead to hurting the bonds and connectedness with your children. I also think that some people tend to make too big of a deal out of little things.

 

:iagree:

 

Your house, your decision.

 

This is true, but ex tends to say very nasty things to the children when I do something that he deems against his beliefs. He paints me as a bad person in those situations to the children and I don't want the children to feel torn in their love for me and their father. He's even told the children that "Mommy doesn't love God anymore". Sigh.

 

I was also wondering what "celebrate Halloween" means. :001_huh:

 

If the children cannot be taken out of school, then they have to participate at least a little in what goes on at school, right? Agreed.

 

Does your ex want the dc not to acknowledge the fact that Halloween even goes on? Yes Well, that's not gonna happen. But could y'all refrain from decorating the house with creepy ghoulies and have smiley-face pumpkins, and costumes that are not witches and little devils?

I wouldn't do that anyways. It's not my style. :D

[katilac]

I think you need to reach a consensus with their father, just as you would if the two of you were together but had separate beliefs.

 

Don't go down the road of disregarding his input simply because the children live with you, unless you want him to disregard YOUR input when the children are visiting him.

 

I personally have no issues with Halloween whatsoever, but I would take into consideration that he is still their father, and that the status quo has always been to NOT celebrate. You need to discuss this with him, and then present a united front to the kids.

[lovinmomma]

I would make a terrible ex-wife. :tongue_smilie:

 

Ugh. I'm trying.

[lovinmomma]

:iagree:

 

You also might want to consider the angst it may cause the children angst if their dad gives them guilt over doing anything.

 

EXACTLY

[Scarlett]

I think you need to reach a consensus with their father, just as you would if the two of you were together but had separate beliefs.

 

Don't go down the road of disregarding his input simply because the children live with you, unless you want him to disregard YOUR input when the children are visiting him.

 

I personally have no issues with Halloween whatsoever, but I would take into consideration that he is still their father, and that the status quo has always been to NOT celebrate. You need to discuss this with him, and then present a united front to the kids.

 

Very wise words.

[lovinmomma]

Is their father aware that taking them out of class this year won't be an option? I would start there. Lay out the possible scenarios and then discuss. Not knowing how adamant or antagonistic he will be, it's hard to advise. KWIM?

 

Could you discuss the Halloween issue in general? Honestly, I think the "really want to do it" would be one of the stumbling blocks. Of course kids want to dress up and get candy. Can you negotiate with former DH about how you will discuss with the kids the deeper meaning and why it's not something you want them to be fully caught up into doing?

 

unfortunately, the lines of communication are not very open right now.

 

We didn't always allow Halloween, and we still don't go all out to "celebrate" but we do participate. However, we only do so now that our kids have a solid foundation of what they believe and why. Talk to him about making sure the kids have the full armor of God.

 

Bottom line, if you can't take them out, they are going to be there and be aware. Keeping them away from the actual party, IMO, will do nothing to shelter them from the influence of Halloween itself. They are going to hear, see and know about everything that goes on and just not get the candy. KWIM?

 

:iagree: my sentiments exactly.

 

It's easy when someone is in an intact marriage to say "I would never" but the fact is, you are in that situation and you do need to do what is best for your kids. Sometimes what is easiest or feels the best to mommy makes too many waves for the kids caught in the middle. I understand why you would want to avoid that and I respect your willingness to try.

 

Very much so. Good post. Thank you.

[lovinmomma]

Okay, Halloween is my favorite holiday. I love the craziness of it. We dress up, there's lots of blood and tons of creepy.I can't help it, I am a preacher's daughter. That said, parenting is different. You will never agree on everything and this one is a good one to respect his opinion on, respect in divorce is huge. If his feelings are about the satanic aspect of it, call him and tell him that your views are changing but out of respect to him, the kids are going to dress up like fruit or something, so they can have fun with their friends. Then I love the previous advice to have a little party, bob for apples, play some non Halloween games, watch Charlie brown!

I would be a horrible ex wife. My husband would be worse. However, among my friends who are exes, the happiest kids are the ones where everyone respects the other viewpoints, perspectives, phases, and ideas. Good luck!

 

Parenting absolutely is a whole different story. It's not just about Halloween. Honestly, it's not going to matter what they dress up like. Allowing them to participate in any way is going to anger him. Sigh. BUT I don't want my children caught in the middle of this and made to feel like their Mommy is a bad person for allowing them to participate.

 

i don't really understand this.

 

Anyway why not ask the teacher or otherwise figure out what the school does on Halloween? Not every kid but yours celebrates, the activities might be minor, etc. I am not sure I remember it being a huge thing when I was a kid.

 

They do a costume parade and a party.

[lovinmomma]

I think Rivka is correct that you should consider what your divorce agreement specifies about holidays/religion. Assuming it either says nothing, I would think you have a fair amount of latitude with regard to what you celebrate and how.

 

If it were me, I'd start by trying to define, specifically, why I didn't celebrate Halloween in the first place and why I feel differently about it now. Then, I'd have a talk with my kids about both of those things.

 

It seems to me there is middle ground, here. Even if you do decide that you want your kids to have some kind of Halloween experience and there are no legalities standing in the way, you don't have to whole hog with scary costumes and decorations and tons of candy. If the school is doing any dress-up that day (and many don't, by the way), could you help your kids put together some simple, non-scary costumes? Could you plan to have your own "party" with popcorn and a movie and some treats?

 

(You'd have to figure out how to make it clear you aren't handing out candy, if you don't want to do that. Maybe leave your front light off and try to hang out in a part of the house that does not face the street? I'm sure you have experience with this if you've never done Halloween.)

 

I'd counsel you to discuss this with their father up front, anyway. What I'm sure you don't want is for them to walk into his disapproval. If you feel strongly about it, though, I wouldn't necessarily ask his permission, just calmly let him know that your feelings have changed and that you are going to let them give this a try.

 

Very good counsel. I don't want for them to meet his disapproval, but I also don't want them to continue on in my footsteps of ALWAYS having to please him regardless of what their opinions are. No one should have to live that way. I also don't want for my children to obey traditions and rules without having any understanding or reasoning for why we do or don't do certain things.

[lovinmomma]

If you never wanted to celebrate Halloween before, and you never did, but you're changing your mind and want to celebrate this year, then realize that you are the one changing the rules. Not the ex-husband.

 

You understand where he's coming from, so this isn't coming out of left field. He cares about his children and doesn't want them exposed to something he believes is evil. We're not here to discuss the validity of that belief. We're just here to say he holds that belief. But, this is a belief you once held and may have passed onto your kids, along with your dh, until this year.

 

And now, for the first time ever, you are thinking that perhaps Halloween isn't evil and it might be fun to celebrate.

 

I think you need to be sensitive to the father of the children's deeply held beliefs. I think it would be horribly rude of you to dismiss them out of hand. If the shoe were on the other foot, you would want him to respect your deeply held beliefs. I would do everything I could to respect those beliefs, just as an act of decent human courtesy.

 

If there is no possible way to avoid a party at school, I would let him know that the children will be going to school like normal on party day, but that would be the only celebrating of Halloween I would do.

 

I would let this one go. It would be difficult (because I personally love Halloween), but I think that disrespecting his deeply held belief (and a lot of WTMers have a deep aversion to Halloween, so he's in good company), is a bad tone to set for your future dealings with him.

 

Now, if you have more info, (like he doesn't really care about Halloween and is only doing this to cause you grief), then I might change my advice. But from the OP only, this is how I'd handle it.

 

Yes, I am fully aware that I am the one changing. Hence, why I am here discussing this and not just saying "screw you and your beliefs". lol I do think that you give some wise counsel here, though.

[lovinmomma]

What does the school do? I didn't know schools did a whole lot of celebrating Halloween?

 

If they are just wearing a friendly costume to school and coloring pumpkins with smiley faces, that seems reasonable. If they are dressing up as evil characters and playing with ouija boards and fake blood, that seems unreasonable, kwim?

 

LOL No, my kids wouldn't be participating in anything of that sort. :D They do a costume parade and a party.

[lovinmomma]

Most people I know of who do not agree with Halloween do not agree with dressing up at all, even as a baked potato. It is considered celebrating Halloween.

 

Correct. You made me lol at your potato comment. :001_smile:

[lovinmomma]

I'd be willing to bet that the school's Halloween festivities are pretty darn benign--more along the lines of a costume parade, math pages with bats or candy corn kernals to count, torn tissue paper and glue jack-o-lantern faces, and maybe a lollipop or some popcorn.

 

I doub that they're going to practice biting the heads off live bats and driving stakes through vampires......but I've been wrong before. :001_smile:

 

OP-- I say relax, let the kids go to school with a hobo or robot costume, maybe do something fun at home and then forget about it. Blip on the radar screen of life. The kids won't turn to the dark side, you won't burn in hell, and they'll remember the time Mom helped them make costumes for the very first time.

 

If you're the primary custodial parent, and it sounds like you are if your ex husband lives in another state, then I think you get to make the decisions about school activities.

 

Hugs to you-- it must be hard.

 

astrid

 

Thank you Astrid.

 

Divorce "rules" or protocol is that you can celebrate Halloween with them.

 

And he can tell them you are a heathen going straight to hell.

 

The courts won't care one way or another.

 

Mostly.

 

It's a bit more complicated than that. Or maybe I'm making it more complicated. I'm not sure. lol

 

Put your kids first !!!! Have your own mind and enjoy it ! He can be upset all by himself - his problem, not yours.

 

Ugh. I hear this, too, and understand this line of thinking. This is why I have so much back and forth in my mind.

[lovinmomma]

Bottom line is that I don't want my children to be caught in the middle or to be made to feel like they are bad or that Mommy is a bad person because of this Halloween thing.

 

Having said that... I don't want my children growing up the way that I did. Not that I wasn't raised by wonderfully amazing parents, but I want my children to have a mind of their own. I want them to make choices and decisions based on what they believe and I want them to understand WHY they believe what they believe.

 

I had to break away from a relationship in which I had no say and I don't want for what my children saw to send them into a relationship of the same sort. I want them to believe and act out of love. Love for themselves. Love for others.

 

I know that when children have too many rules and restrictions it hurts the relationship that you have with your children. It breaks bonds that are hard to tie back together. It can cause children to run in the opposite direction as well. Ask me how I know. ;)

 

Things are further complicated by the fact that my children NEED me to have a good relationship with their father. No matter what my personal feelings are about him.

 

Divorce. Sucks.

[Amy in NH]

It sounds cold to talk about legalities, but it's really important. If you are supposed to share such decisions and you make one you know he won't like, he could cause problems for you if he's the type that would.

 

 

Yes, but if they are at odds, why does he get the final say?

[TXBeth]

Yes, but if they are at odds, why does he get the final say?

 

I don't think it's about him getting the final say. I think it's a combination of a) This is the way they have always done it, so if she has changed her mind it is reasonable to at least compromise, and b) the typical co-parenting rule of "the 'no' wins." Mommy doesn't mind Halloween fun, Daddy thinks it is evil and the kids should not particpate, so kids do not participate. I would say the same if the parents were still married.

 

I think a reasonable compromise is that kids can participate in school activities, but you don't celebrate the holiday in any other way. I think it is reasonable to tell them "Daddy feels very strongly that those things aren't good for you, and we need to respect that because he is your daddy. We'll talk about it again next year."

[chiguirre]

[They do a costume parade and a party.

 

I wouldn't send them without a costume on a day that there will be a costume parade, that will make them feel left out and resentful. OTOH, Halloween is so controversial, maybe the school has alternative activities planned for the non-celebrators?

 

If not you'll either have to come up with a babysitter and take the ding for an unexcused absence or tell your ex up front that that's not an option. He can either make plans to visit that day and take them out of school or he can deal with his negative feelings without involving the kids. Or, of course, he can complain about you to your kids, but you can't control that. You can only do your best and let the chips fall where they may.

 

:grouphug:

[thepoteetteam]

While there are SOOOO many factors to talk about according what the bible says about all of this, my first thought is this:

The bible tells us to honor thy mother and father. I feel that it's simple. If you allow them to do something their father is has said no to, you are encouraging your children to dishonor their father. I don't mean for that to sound so cruel. It's really just that simple. There are MANY biblical reasons to NOT celebrate Halloween. I'm assuming their father has that best interest in mind and heart. He is not asking them to give up anything that would go against the Word of God. No matter how much it's hard NOT to honor their father from your point of view, it's very important to teach the kids to honor him. Just my first thought.....:grouphug::grouphug:

Can you find a church fall festival to go to as an alternative?

[Trish]

I'm not crazy about Halloween, either, but we let the kids do it. They have to have non-scary costumes, either funny or superheroes or whatever. Nothing evil, gruesome or disgusting.

[laundrycrisis]

This is true, but ex tends to say very nasty things to the children when I do something that he deems against his beliefs. He paints me as a bad person in those situations to the children and I don't want the children to feel torn in their love for me and their father. He's even told the children that "Mommy doesn't love God anymore". Sigh.

 

:grouphug:

 

If this is the kind of person he is, realize that you will never be able to avoid his disapproval. He will never settle for less than 100% compliance. He will always be finding something about you to criticize to your kids, and he will hold that threat over your head and manipulate you with it for as long as you allow him to. He will also manipulate your children with guilt, and fear of him turning against them too.

 

Since he has already been crossing the line, I would have a very frank discussion with the kids, telling them that people have different beliefs, and it's okay to have different beliefs, and that you and their father have different beliefs. He thinks you are wrong for believing differently than he does, and he is welcome to his opinion, but really it is up to each person what they choose to believe and when he says bad things about you, they are not obligated to agree with him.

 

And, if you think you can manage it without him taking you to court over it, I would get them into professional non-religious counseling so they can start to have some understanding about healthy boundaries and manipulation. It sounds like they are already living with this reality, so they may as well understand it. Nothing has to be said about their father, but they can be taught about boundaries and study social stories about manipulation, how to recognize it, and not let others drag them into guilt-controlled situations. Eventually they will recognize these in their lives, and it will help them to understand it and not be so hurt and controlled by it.

[Melinda in VT]

:grouphug:

 

If this is the kind of person he is, realize that you will never be able to avoid his disapproval. He will never settle for less than 100% compliance. He will always be finding something about you to criticize to your kids, and he will hold that threat over your head and manipulate you with it for as long as you allow him to. He will also manipulate your children with guilt, and fear of him turning against them too.

 

Since he has already been crossing the line, I would have a very frank discussion with the kids, telling them that people have different beliefs, and it's okay to have different beliefs, and that you and their father have different beliefs. He thinks you are wrong for believing differently than he does, and he is welcome to his opinion, but really it is up to each person what they choose to believe and when he says bad things about you, they are not obligated to agree with him.

 

And, if you think you can manage it without him taking you to court over it, I would get them into professional non-religious counseling so they can start to have some understanding about healthy boundaries and manipulation. It sounds like they are already living with this reality, so they may as well understand it. Nothing has to be said about their father, but they can be taught about boundaries and study social stories about manipulation, how to recognize it, and not let others drag them into guilt-controlled situations. Eventually they will recognize these in their lives, and it will help them to understand it and not be so hurt and controlled by it.

 

:iagree:

 

I also encourage you to consider Young Fredle as a read-aloud. It's a story about a young mouse who learns that there is more than one way to live and that much of what he has been taught about the world is wrong. Fun on the surface; lots of ideas to talk about under the surface.

 

:grouphug:

 

I probably would give their dad the option of coming to visit them on Halloween if he feels strongly about them not participating in school that day. I would probably not take them trick-or-treating this year, but I would buy them candy to eat at home, maybe while watching a movie or having a family game night.

 

But it sounds like you have larger issues you need to figure out how to handle. :grouphug:

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Very good counsel. I don't want for them to meet his disapproval, but I also don't want them to continue on in my footsteps of ALWAYS having to please him regardless of what their opinions are. No one should have to live that way. I also don't want for my children to obey traditions and rules without having any understanding or reasoning for why we do or don't do certain things.

I let my DD make her own decisions or at least discuss the decisions with us about some of these things because she also has God's Spirit. ;) I would rather her learn how to rely on Him instead of other people telling her what to do.

[Lovedtodeath]

It is not in the kids' interest to cause an upheaval or intentional disrespect of core beliefs with the other parent if that can be avoided.**

 

The OP has a right to her own feelings and beliefs. However, she is showing respect and human kindness to consider how her choices will affect her children, and her ex (which by extension WILL affect her children). By considering those things in her decision, she is putting her kids first.

 

Have your own mind and enjoy it is not always putting your kids first. Especially as the OP mentioned, when things are more complicated than we would perhaps like them to be.

 

** I recognize this cannot always be avoided nor is it always desirable.

:iagree:

[Lovedtodeath]

:grouphug: it sounds like you've been on quite a journey. "recovering" from a highly restrictive church is a lot of hard, very brave work. :hurray: its so worth it, but its so hard. :grouphug:

 

 

:001_wub:

 

i could honestly say we went to x,y,z church on october 31st, and leave it at that. i would volunteer nothing.

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

ann

There is a large chance the kids will tell him and he will make them feel very guilty even if all they did was take some candy from the school party.

 

I also encourage you to consider Young Fredle as a read-aloud. It's a story about a young mouse who learns that there is more than one way to live and that much of what he has been taught about the world is wrong. Fun on the surface; lots of ideas to talk about under the surface.

Oh thanks!

[J-rap]

Can they stay in school and dress as angels?

[oldskool]

My children also never celebrated Halloween and always felt left out by not celebrating it (mostly because they love to dress up). One year when Dh was out of town for the holiday I let the kids dress up and go trick-or-treating around the block. I wanted them to have the experience. I also did the what some would consider to be a terrible parenting decision and told them that we would not share this with their father. (This is the only thing I have ever hid from DH). It turns out that the kids had a lot of fun, but that it wasn't all that they thought it would be. That was the only year we have done it and it seemed to satisfy their curiosity enough. So, that was about 3 years ago. Last year I very openly bought candy and let the kids dress up and hand it out at the door. The first year in our 20 together that we have ever handed out candy. Dh didn't blink an eye and we never discussed it. He even ended up handing out the candy when the kids were tired of answering the door. Not sure if this is any advice really, but wanted to share that I understand the predicament. I am glad that I decided to do what I did. I felt like my children were/are able to be kids and not worry about going to hell for things like this. It was a process for me as well. Good luck with the decision. :grouphug:

[athomemom]

Most people I know of who do not agree with Halloween do not agree with dressing up at all, even as a baked potato. It is considered celebrating Halloween.

 

Yes, I know. I was raised in such an environment.

 

I feel for the OP. My kids celebrated Halloween until they have chosen not to dress up any longer. I had great fun with them...

[Scarlett]

I'm not crazy about Halloween, either, but we let the kids do it. They have to have non-scary costumes, either funny or superheroes or whatever. Nothing evil, gruesome or disgusting.

 

The operative word here is 'we'. Your dh and you agree on it. This poster and the her children's father do not agree on the issue.

[Scarlett]

:grouphug:

 

If this is the kind of person he is, realize that you will never be able to avoid his disapproval. He will never settle for less than 100% compliance. He will always be finding something about you to criticize to your kids, and he will hold that threat over your head and manipulate you with it for as long as you allow him to. He will also manipulate your children with guilt, and fear of him turning against them too.

 

Since he has already been crossing the line, I would have a very frank discussion with the kids, telling them that people have different beliefs, and it's okay to have different beliefs, and that you and their father have different beliefs. He thinks you are wrong for believing differently than he does, and he is welcome to his opinion, but really it is up to each person what they choose to believe and when he says bad things about you, they are not obligated to agree with him.

 

And, if you think you can manage it without him taking you to court over it, I would get them into professional non-religious counseling so they can start to have some understanding about healthy boundaries and manipulation. It sounds like they are already living with this reality, so they may as well understand it. Nothing has to be said about their father, but they can be taught about boundaries and study social stories about manipulation, how to recognize it, and not let others drag them into guilt-controlled situations. Eventually they will recognize these in their lives, and it will help them to understand it and not be so hurt and controlled by it.

 

Divorce is hard. I don't know details of the OP's divorce but clearly the way he thought his children would be raised isn't happening--even though she does appear to be trying to be kind to him about it. Let me tell you that is a difficult pill to swallow. Not knowing him---it is hard to define his character and intent from his ex-wife's description of him. He might be systematically attempting to turn the children against their mother or he might have said things in frustration that he wouldn't normally say. (your mother doesn't love God anymore) I've said things to my ds about his dad that I've had to apologize to him for.

 

Yeah, divorce is hard.

[Blueridge]

:grouphug: to you. We've been caught in the 'do we or do we not celebrate Halloween' struggle most of our kid's lives. :tongue_smilie: When my talented sister was throwing huge family parties every year, we were tiptoeing there with 'Biblical' or 'wholesome' costumes and trying not to look out of place. :confused: We really did lose our joy and felt badly about everybody else having a blast while we sat and looked uncomfortable. We did read the girls some books like the ones found here: http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/easy_find?Ntt=halloween&N=0&Ntk=keywords&action=Search&Ne=0&event=ESRCG&nav_search=1&cms=1

Then we sought to provide fun for our family like popcorn and caramel apples and chili pie and select candy for a fun movie night fall feast. We avoided anything scary, and just tried to have fun together to celebrate the fact that we didn't have to be fuddy duddies to still love Jesus.

[Rosie_0801]

The bible tells us to honor thy mother and father. I feel that it's simple. If you allow them to do something their father is has said no to, you are encouraging your children to dishonor their father. I don't mean for that to sound so cruel. It's really just that simple.

 

It's not that simple. He says things that encourage the children to dishonour their mother, as we've already heard up thread. Let's just remember that this fellow is no longer the head of the household. It is absolutely not the same as if they were still married. A woman should not have to behave as though she is a wife, let alone a biblical submissive wife, towards a man who is not her husband.

 

I would explain to the ex that I understand how important his beliefs are but since I was unable to pull them out of school that day, he would need to be responsible for coming and doing it himself. I realise he's out of state, but if it is that important that you must live by his rules, he'll find a way of making it happen. I wouldn't do any other Halloween stuff though, and I would make sure ex knew this was out of respect for his beliefs.

 

It's all very well and good for people to lay down the law about things that inconvenience everyone but themselves. :glare: Sometimes a person needs to put their money where their mouth is and it sounds like this may be one of those times.

 

Rosie

[Jann in TX]

Nowhere in the Bible will you find a commandment:

 

Thou shalt not celebrate Halloween.

 

It is NOT there...

 

There are, however scriptures that ask/warn to 'flee from evil'... and such.

 

It all comes down to the GREY. Paul addressed the church about similar legalistic issues quite often in the New Testament.

 

Basically, if YOU feel that celebrating Halloween is a sin then YOU should not do it-- you do not want to act against what YOU believe.

 

If you do not feel that allowing the children to dress up is a sin then it is NOT.

 

Telling someone that celebrating Halloween is a sin is being legalalistic. Period-- there is no such commandment in the Bible... same goes for drinking, smoking, who to marry, what career to choose, the color to paint your house....

 

God gave us a brain--he also gave us 'wise counsel' and the Bible. Sometimes 'wise counsel (-- people who are HUMAN) are wrong.... sometimes they are right. The Bible is 'always' right--but does not address these grey areas-- that is what our BRAIN and our walk with God is for!

 

--It was so freeing as a family to put away the LEGALISM and enjoy the festivals 'associated with Halloween'... this includes a family walk around the town square--costumes optional (our town's version of trick-or-treating) and a visit to the local nursing home (again part of town ToT). Don't forget to stop by the local volunteer fire department to bob for apples (and give to their food drive)...We usually wave at the pastor's kids (they are there too!)

NOTHING that we feel that God would treat as a 'sin'.

[CalicoKat]

This is a long story, so I'm going to just give highlights. If you need more info. just ask. ;)

 

When I was married I was very conservative, etc. Before I got divorced I kinda broke away from the church (not from God) and have been trying very hard to make my own opinions and decisions. We still go to church, etc., but I'm trying to make decisions based on what I believe. My children have never celebrated Halloween and I have never celebrated it. Last year on Halloween their dad asked me to bring them home from school so they didn't have to dress up or be left out at the party. I did what he asked.

 

Soooo... fast forward to this year. This year the kids REALLY want to celebrate halloween. Their dad would not approve at all, but the kids live with me. :confused: This is why families are meant to be together forever. Grr...

 

I can't take them out of school this year and I don't want them to be the only ones left out. I don't know what to do. If I celebrate halloween with them their Dad will probably not be happy about it. At. All.

 

Any ideas how to have my own mind, but also not rock the boat too much???:bigear:

1. Tell the kids that if they make this a big deal then their dad will probably figure out how to put a kybosh on the event next year.

 

2. Keep the costumes simple and benign.

 

3. Throw away xtra candy within 24 hrs for your own sanity.

[Lovedtodeath]

Nowhere in the Bible will you find a commandment:

 

Thou shalt not celebrate Halloween.

 

It is NOT there...

 

There are, however scriptures that ask/warn to 'flee from evil'... and such.

 

It all comes down to the GREY. Paul addressed the church about similar legalistic issues quite often in the New Testament.

:iagree:Romans 14

[lovinmomma]

:grouphug:

 

If this is the kind of person he is, realize that you will never be able to avoid his disapproval. He will never settle for less than 100% compliance. He will always be finding something about you to criticize to your kids, and he will hold that threat over your head and manipulate you with it for as long as you allow him to. He will also manipulate your children with guilt, and fear of him turning against them too.

 

Since he has already been crossing the line, I would have a very frank discussion with the kids, telling them that people have different beliefs, and it's okay to have different beliefs, and that you and their father have different beliefs. He thinks you are wrong for believing differently than he does, and he is welcome to his opinion, but really it is up to each person what they choose to believe and when he says bad things about you, they are not obligated to agree with him.

 

And, if you think you can manage it without him taking you to court over it, I would get them into professional non-religious counseling so they can start to have some understanding about healthy boundaries and manipulation. It sounds like they are already living with this reality, so they may as well understand it. Nothing has to be said about their father, but they can be taught about boundaries and study social stories about manipulation, how to recognize it, and not let others drag them into guilt-controlled situations. Eventually they will recognize these in their lives, and it will help them to understand it and not be so hurt and controlled by it.

 

Very good advice here in this post. Thank you. I had a talk with them last night. I also do believe that they need some counseling.

 

:iagree:

 

I also encourage you to consider Young Fredle as a read-aloud. It's a story about a young mouse who learns that there is more than one way to live and that much of what he has been taught about the world is wrong. Fun on the surface; lots of ideas to talk about under the surface.

 

:grouphug:

 

I probably would give their dad the option of coming to visit them on Halloween if he feels strongly about them not participating in school that day. I would probably not take them trick-or-treating this year, but I would buy them candy to eat at home, maybe while watching a movie or having a family game night.

 

But it sounds like you have larger issues you need to figure out how to handle. :grouphug:

 

Thank you for the suggestions! I will see if my library has that book.

 

I let my DD make her own decisions or at least discuss the decisions with us about some of these things because she also has God's Spirit. ;) I would rather her learn how to rely on Him instead of other people telling her what to do.

 

Thank you. Very good point.

[lovinmomma]

So much good advice from everyone! I knew I could count on the Hive to help me look at this from many viewpoints. Thank you!

[lovemykids]

Naturally you are seeing this poster's situation through the filter of your own life. We all do that. Nothing in the OP indicates the father of these children is like your father. He has a belief about Halloween. He naturally wants to raise his children with that belief. Divorce puts a kink in that---but it is still not abnormal for him to desire it.

 

If your mom didn't agree with any of his beliefs I wonder why she married him. I rephrased that question several times because it is an honest question with no malice, but it comes across on the screen as sort of snarky. :tongue_smilie:

Many marriages contain two very different people, haven’t you heard that opposites attract? LOL.

 

People’s beliefs sometimes morph, and change; as they should since we are all constantly growing and changing.

 

I think you need to reach a consensus with their father, just as you would if the two of you were together but had separate beliefs.

 

Don't go down the road of disregarding his input simply because the children live with you, unless you want him to disregard YOUR input when the children are visiting him.

 

I personally have no issues with Halloween whatsoever, but I would take into consideration that he is still their father, and that the status quo has always been to NOT celebrate. You need to discuss this with him, and then present a united front to the kids.

 

 

This is very true. I agree; wise words indeed.

 

Very wise words.

 

Bottom line is that I don't want my children to be caught in the middle or to be made to feel like they are bad or that Mommy is a bad person because of this Halloween thing.

 

Having said that... I don't want my children growing up the way that I did. Not that I wasn't raised by wonderfully amazing parents, but I want my children to have a mind of their own. I want them to make choices and decisions based on what they believe and I want them to understand WHY they believe what they believe.

 

I had to break away from a relationship in which I had no say and I don't want for what my children saw to send them into a relationship of the same sort. I want them to believe and act out of love. Love for themselves. Love for others.

 

I know that when children have too many rules and restrictions it hurts the relationship that you have with your children. It breaks bonds that are hard to tie back together. It can cause children to run in the opposite direction as well. Ask me how I know. ;)

 

Things are further complicated by the fact that my children NEED me to have a good relationship with their father. No matter what my personal feelings are about him.

 

Divorce. Sucks.

:iagree:

 

Divorce is never easy.

 

Respect is something that should be taught and acted upon, not just a word thrown around and used to the advantage of the person who strongly feels they are “right”. This is very hard, no matter which side of the coin you are on...(Some religions/people claiming to have respect for others beliefs are NOT being honest with themselves or anyone else.) Good vibes, good luck, many prayers…

:grouphug:

Edited September 17, 2012 by lovemykids

[jhschool]

Let them celebrate it.

They have to go to school anyway,

and it's not nice for the kids to be left out of the party.

Don't dress them up as witches;

that way their dad might not mind so much.

Dress them up as princesses or something nice.

Edited September 16, 2012 by jhschool

[Mrs Mungo]

The vibe I am getting? He is going to talk bad about you no matter what. With people like that, I always figure, might as well give them something to talk about. ;)

 

Your kids will find their way. :grouphug:

[lovemykids]

The vibe I am getting? He is going to talk bad about you no matter what. With people like that, I always figure, might as well give them something to talk about. ;)

 

Your kids will find their way. :grouphug:

 

 

 

Ha ha, I vote Mrs. Mungo for president..very true as well…it sounds like he is already setting the pattern for disrespect (Mommy doesn’t love God anymore-geez!) :001_rolleyes::ack2:

[Lady Florida.]

Yes, but if they are at odds, why does he get the final say?

 

 

I didn't mean to imply that he gets the final say, but that it's something they should discuss. In the past they were in agreement and now they're not. Being divorced IMO, makes the disagreement harder because one party could make trouble for the other.

 

Personally, I'd just do it and let the chips fall where they may, but I get the impression the OP doesn't want that. I was trying to give her advice based on what I thought was right for her situation.