A question about God

[clarkacademy]

From my 15 year old daughter..

 

My daughter asked me this question about God and forgiveness, She has been told that God could forgive anyone of their sin if they believe. If they believe then child molesters, rapists, theives, murderers etc can be welcomed into Heaven. She wants to know why would God not forgive Eve? In her words all she did was eat an apple but people who have done very horrible things are forgiven and given second chances so why was God so quick to punish Eve?

[CatMomof3]

Because instead of asking for forgiveness she blamed it on the snake, same with Adam he blamed it on Eve.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

To piggyback on that:

 

Why would he give her free will then punish her when she uses it?

 

Why would he give her curiosity then punish her when she uses it?

 

Why punish all womankind forever and ever when men didn't get the same?

 

Sounds sexist and sadistic to me.

[SunnyDays]

I look at it this way: when our children disobey us, we do forgive them, but there is often a consequence for their actions. We take away their privileges or a special activity. This is what happened with Eve. Eve disobeyed, and the consequences were to leave the Garden of Eden, have pain in childbirth, etc. But... that doesn't mean he didn't forgive her or not allow her into heaven.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I look at it this way: when our children disobey us, we do forgive them, but there is often a consequence for their actions. We take away their privileges or a special activity. This is what happened with Eve. Eve disobeyed, and the consequences were to leave the Garden of Eden, have pain in childbirth, etc. But... that doesn't mean he didn't forgive her or not allow her into heaven.

 

 

But, if god is all knowing then he knew it was gonna happen, anyway and just set her up to fail, no? :confused:

[6packofun]

First, God "punished" both Adam and Eve. :)

 

Secondly, as in all relationships, SIN changes things and those first sins changed humanity's relationship to God. Even though they could no longer stay in God's presence in the garden, God gave them coverings and protected them as they went out into the world. He still blessed them in many ways.

 

We do not know specifically if Adam and Eve repented of their sin, but it's hinted that they at the very least continue in obedience to Him by offering sacrifices--God's requirement now that they cannot be in God's holy presence--because their sons continue the practice themselves. Sin must be paid for and before Jesus' sacrifice, *those* sacrifices atoned for the sin and God determined what would be pleasing to Himself. But He also made it possible for people to do it, even though it wasn't always easy!

 

Thirdly, as far as murderers, rapists, etc. we see the example of the thief on the cross next to Jesus during the crucifixion. What happens? The thief acknowledges and accepts WHO Jesus is and that He is innocently giving His life. Jesus SEES his heart and tells him he will be in paradise! That is awesome and gives hope to anyone. Our own sense of justice, warped that it is, honestly, sees anyone worse than us in sinful practice and feel that it isn't fair that a person could sin "so horribly" and still get to be in paradise! But God's standard is holiness. We cannot reach it ourselves and that's why we need Jesus.

 

God also sees into the heart in ways that we cannot. A person truly changed by Him would not continue to live his or her life the same way (maybe not immediately at first, but change would be EVIDENT on the inside and out). We know that God's sense of justice is perfect. We do not know that every deathbed confession of faith is sincere, but HE does. We should want hearts to change and not hold on to the idea that anyone is not good enough to get into heaven because WE do not "do good" to get into heaven ourselves! So trusting in God's perfect standard being applied to hearts we cannot fully know as He can eases my mind on the subject a lot!

[Dory]

But, if god is all knowing then he knew it was gonna happen, anyway and just set her up to fail, no? :confused:

 

I also know where my childrens' weak spots are and I know that they are going to make stupid mistakes and make poor choices in those areas. That doesn't mean that I cage them up, take away their ability to choose, and render them unable to make those poor choices. If I want them to learn, sometimes I have to allow them to make those choices and follow those rough roads. According to scripture, from the beginning of time God already had redemption planned. He allowed them to make those choices so that man wouldn't be in this controlled environment but be able to learn, make mistakes, and grow.

[Onceuponatime]

I look at the story of Adam and Eve as a metaphor for the evolutionary awakening of the sense of self, separate from what is (God). As humans we go through the same thing in our lifetime, growing out of our childhood innocence and dependence into a sense of individuality and separateness. Finding our way back to an understanding of our connectedness to all that exists is, in a sense, our salvation. I personally don't believe it is meant to be taken literally.

 

Nothing in the Bible says that Adam and Eve, if they actually existed, had an eternal punishment, but rather earthly consequences. Even criminals have earthly consequences for their actions. Personally, I think it is a good thing we don't live for ever in our present state.

 

If there is a heaven, there is no reason why Adam and Eve could not be there.

 

If you look at the evolution of the human body, it is easy to see that one of the consequences of walking upright would be increased pain in childbirth because of the repositioning of the pelvis.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Onceuponatime

[TranquilMind]

From my 15 year old daughter..

 

My daughter asked me this question about God and forgiveness, She has been told that God could forgive anyone of their sin if they believe. If they believe then child molesters, rapists, theives, murderers etc can be welcomed into Heaven. She wants to know why would God not forgive Eve? In her words all she did was eat an apple but people who have done very horrible things are forgiven and given second chances so why was God so quick to punish Eve?

 

Did he "punish" her? Or did she and Adam both simply reap the consequences of disobedience? From then on, Adam had to toil to bring food from the ground, and Eve had to toil to bring forth children (same Hebrew word used in both places, it is my understanding).

 

He DID forgive her!

[TranquilMind]

Nothing in the Bible says that Adam and Eve had an eternal punishment, but rather earthly consequences. Even criminals have earthly consequences for their actions.

 

.

 

Right.

[Dory]

Did he "punish" her? Or did she and Adam both simply reap the consequences of disobedience? From then on, Adam had to toil to bring food from the ground, and Eve had to toil to bring forth children (same Hebrew word used in both places, it is my understanding).

 

He DID forgive her!

 

:iagree:

[TranquilMind]

To piggyback on that:

 

Why would he give her free will then punish her when she uses it?

 

Why would he give her curiosity then punish her when she uses it?

 

Why punish all womankind forever and ever when men didn't get the same?

 

Sounds sexist and sadistic to me.

 

This is not accurate. He didn't "punish" her for using free will. She used free will every day, in everything. There was a consequence to doing the one thing God asked them not to do, for their own protection.

 

He didn't punish her for using curiosity, simply they brought on a consequence for doing the one thing He asked that they not do.

 

You are mistaken in thinking Adam had no consequence. He had to "toil to bring forth food from the ground" from that moment on, whereas before, it was just there and available to pick up. Eve, likewise, had to toil to bring forth children.

Edited September 9, 2012 by TranquilMind

[clarkacademy]

Because instead of asking for forgiveness she blamed it on the snake, same with Adam he blamed it on Eve.

 

What about the abuser who blames it on their parents? Or teachers that abused She is a very hard child to talk with because she wants to understand she has to cover all the bases I guess.

[Truscifi]

As far as I can tell, forgiveness is not a big theme in the Old Testament. Vengeance, yes. Floods, fire and brimstone, sending bears to eat children...forgiveness, not so much.

[momto2Cs]

I look at the story of Adam and Eve as a metaphor for the evolutionary awakening of the sense of self, separate from what is (God). As humans we go through the same thing in our lifetime, growing out of our childhood innocence and dependence into a sense of individuality and separateness. Finding our way back to an understanding of our connectedness to all that exists is, in a sense, our salvation. I personally don't believe it is meant to be taken literally.

 

Nothing in the Bible says that Adam and Eve, if they actually existed, had an eternal punishment, but rather earthly consequences. Even criminals have earthly consequences for their actions. Personally, I think it is a good thing we don't live for ever in our present state.

 

If there is a heaven, there is no reason why Adam and Eve could not be there.

 

If you look at the evolution of the human body, it is easy to see that one of the consequences of walking upright would be increased pain in childbirth because of the repositioning of the pelvis.

 

:iagree:

[Dory]

What about the abuser who blames it on their parents? Or teachers that abused She is a very hard child to talk with because she wants to understand she has to cover all the bases I guess.

 

 

I like to see things from all angles too.

 

Yes, to some extent what happened to the abuser in their childhood made it easier for them to CHOOSE to abuse. Abuse in childhood doesn't automatically make someone an abuser, anymore than the snake forced Eve to eat the apple. It is still the individuals choice to do what it wrong.

I personally struggled with the view of abusers blaming it on their parents. I never wanted to blame my childhood on the adults in it because well, they had been abused. Once I had my own children I realized that it's always the individuals choice. Sometimes it's a hard choice, but it's still a choice. The abuser still chose to allow sin into their life, and the sin in their life spilled over and hurt the people around them. They have to be willing to own up to their sin and repent of it. God still loves them, He cannot accept the sin though.

[Bluegoat]

Who says God didn't forgive Eve?

 

In the icon depicting Christ descending to the dead, called the Harrowing of Hell, it shows Christ dragging both Adam and Eve out of Hell. Sounds to me like they were offered forgiveness.

 

[BugsMama]

Who says God didn't forgive Eve?

 

In the icon depicting Christ descending to the dead, called the Harrowing of Hell, it shows Christ dragging both Adam and Eve out of Hell. Sounds to me like they were offered forgiveness.

 

 

Is one artist's rendition doctrine?

[justamouse]

I look at the story of Adam and Eve as a metaphor for the evolutionary awakening of the sense of self, separate from what is (God). As humans we go through the same thing in our lifetime, growing out of our childhood innocence and dependence into a sense of individuality and separateness. Finding our way back to an understanding of our connectedness to all that exists is, in a sense, our salvation. I personally don't believe it is meant to be taken literally.

 

Nothing in the Bible says that Adam and Eve, if they actually existed, had an eternal punishment, but rather earthly consequences. Even criminals have earthly consequences for their actions. Personally, I think it is a good thing we don't live for ever in our present state.

 

If there is a heaven, there is no reason why Adam and Eve could not be there.

 

If you look at the evolution of the human body, it is easy to see that one of the consequences of walking upright would be increased pain in childbirth because of the repositioning of the pelvis.

:iagree:

 

When we awakened to EGO is the 'fall'.

 

Adam and Eve are archetypes.

[Dory]

As far as I can tell, forgiveness is not a big theme in the Old Testament. Vengeance, yes. Floods, fire and brimstone, sending bears to eat children...forgiveness, not so much.

 

There is still consequences for sin in the New Testement, look at Ananias and Sapphira. There was mercy in the Old Testement. Psalms 78:38-39, There was also forgiveness for David after he slept with Bathsheba, there was forgiveness between Joseph and his brothers, Psalm 32:1, David talks constantly about God's amazing mercy.

[Mrs. A]

Is one artist's rendition doctrine?

 

 

In the Orthodox Church, an icon is not an artist's own individual point of view nor does the iconographer get to choose the elements included in or left out of the icon. It reflects the teachings and beliefs of the church handed down through the centuries. If you were to look at any icon of the resurrection it would include all the same elements as the one above. The style might vary slightly, but not the people/event depicted.

 

Here is another example:

Edited September 9, 2012 by Mrs. A
.

[justamouse]

Who says God didn't forgive Eve?

 

In the icon depicting Christ descending to the dead, called the Harrowing of Hell, it shows Christ dragging both Adam and Eve out of Hell. Sounds to me like they were offered forgiveness.

 

 

Isn't that one beautiful?

 

Of course he forgave Adam and Eve! How could He not? It goes against who He is to not forgive. The greatest of those stories being The Prodigal.

[VeritasMama]

There is still consequences for sin in the New Testement, look at Ananias and Sapphira. There was mercy in the Old Testement. Psalms 78:38-39, There was also forgiveness for David after he slept with Bathsheba, there was forgiveness between Joseph and his brothers, Psalm 32:1, David talks constantly about God's amazing mercy.

 

We just finished reading the story of Joseph and his brothers, and I remember the overwhelming theme that struck me as being forgiveness. Also, that God allows us to suffer the consequences of our sins, and the consequences for the sins of others, but if we stay faithful to him and repent he forgives us and will also allow good to come out of sin. I'm referring to Joseph staying true to God in prison, and then God using that situation to bring about the salvation of both the Egyptians and the Israelites through Joseph. So inspiring, I don't understand how people can read the OT and only see the negative.

Edited September 9, 2012 by VeritasMama

[Kathryn]

I look at the story of Adam and Eve as a metaphor for the evolutionary awakening of the sense of self, separate from what is (God). As humans we go through the same thing in our lifetime, growing out of our childhood innocence and dependence into a sense of individuality and separateness. Finding our way back to an understanding of our connectedness to all that exists is, in a sense, our salvation. I personally don't believe it is meant to be taken literally.

 

Nothing in the Bible says that Adam and Eve, if they actually existed, had an eternal punishment, but rather earthly consequences. Even criminals have earthly consequences for their actions. Personally, I think it is a good thing we don't live for ever in our present state.

 

If there is a heaven, there is no reason why Adam and Eve could not be there.

 

If you look at the evolution of the human body, it is easy to see that one of the consequences of walking upright would be increased pain in childbirth because of the repositioning of the pelvis.

 

:iagree:

 

And punishment/consequence does not equal not forgiving. I forgive my child for his misdeeds, but he still has consequences for them.

[justamouse]

We just finished reading the story of Joseph and his brothers, and I remember the overwhelming theme that struck me as being forgiveness. Also, that God allows us to suffer the consequences of our sins, and the consequences for the sins of others, but if we stay faithful to him and repent he forgives us and will also allow good to come out of sin. I'm referring to Joseph staying true to God in prison, and then God using that situation to bring about the salvation of both the Egyptians and the Israelites through Joseph. So inspiring, I don't understand how people can read the OT and only see the negative.

 

:iagree:

 

If I touch the burner, I'll be burned, it's a gift of free will to have the freedom to touch the burner, but the consequence is that the burn will hurt for days, perhaps blister.

 

God can't help the consequences. We do those things to ourselves--however, he can, through grace, write straight with crooked lines. He can make something beautiful out of ashes. But the fault that He had ashes to work with in the first place was ours.

[Ellie]

God forgave Eve (and Adam), but there were consequences to her sin that had to take place. It is the same with us: even though God forgives us, we may have to suffer the consequences of our behavior.

[Bluegoat]

Is one artist's rendition doctrine?

 

As Mrs. A said, an icon isn't really an artist's rendition. It is a bit more like a doctrinal idea or text presented visually. And that presentation is tightly controlled, just as the way Scripture is presented is controlled - perhaps even more so in some ways as there is no issue with translation.

 

In this case it showing the teaching that Christ descended to the dead to preach to them after the Crucifixion, and it shows him holding Adam and Eve by the wrists (as they have no power of themselves to help themselves) to bring them out of Hell. Not just those two either but many others. You see the broken doors of Hell under his feet, and you see that those individuals in whom mankind fell have themselves been redeemed, which has implications for all of us.

[Soror]

God forgave Eve (and Adam), but there were consequences to her sin that had to take place. It is the same with us: even though God forgives us, we may have to suffer the consequences of our behavior.

 

:iagree: I see many have already said the same thing, I don't know where one would get the idea that Adam and Eve were eternally ****ed to hell.

[Bluegoat]

:iagree: I see many have already said the same thing, I don't know where one would get the idea that Adam and Eve were eternally ****ed to hell.

 

I think sometimes people understand the expulsion from the garden as representing their eternal fate. And that seems to be taught in some churches. IMO it can't really hold up under closer inspection though, since both Adam and Eve actually die - so the expulsion can't represent their death. The question then would be why would we say they in particular are condemned to Hell after living a normal imperfect life just like the rest of us? The text gives no reason to suggest that they went on to totally and continuously reject God - in fact they seem to have had some sort of continued relationship with him.

[Soror]

I think sometimes people understand the expulsion from the garden as representing their eternal fate. And that seems to be taught in some churches.

 

Well, I will file that away in the "learn something new every day" file, I didn't realize anyone taught that.

[goldberry]

Adam and Eve were created in perfection. They made a choice to disobey God's direct commandment. God stated that if they ate of the tree they would positively die, and that is what happened.

 

The difference between them and us is that they had no inherited imperfection to contend with. They were perfect, had a perfect set of circumstances direct from God himself, and they chose to disobey.

 

All of us since then, have inherited imperfection from them. Christ's sacrifice redeems us from this if we take advantage of it. The plan for Christ's sacrifice to redeem the human race was instituted AFTER the sin of Adam and Eve.

[PeacefulChaos]

This is not accurate. He didn't "punish" her for using free will. She used free will every day, in everything. There was a consequence to doing the one thing God asked them not to do, for their own protection.

 

He didn't punish her for using curiosity, simply they brought on a consequence for doing the one thing He asked that they not do.

 

You are mistaken in thinking Adam had no consequence. He had to "toil to bring forth food from the ground" from that moment on, whereas before, it was just there and available to pick up. Eve, likewise, had to toil to bring forth children.

:iagree:

As far as I can tell, forgiveness is not a big theme in the Old Testament. Vengeance, yes. Floods, fire and brimstone, sending bears to eat children...forgiveness, not so much.

True. Well, sort of. But redemption and forgiveness is much more focused on in the New Testament than the Old. :)

There is still consequences for sin in the New Testement, look at Ananias and Sapphira. There was mercy in the Old Testement. Psalms 78:38-39, There was also forgiveness for David after he slept with Bathsheba, there was forgiveness between Joseph and his brothers, Psalm 32:1, David talks constantly about God's amazing mercy.

:iagree:

:iagree:

 

And punishment/consequence does not equal not forgiving. I forgive my child for his misdeeds, but he still has consequences for them.

 

Adam and Eve were created in perfection. They made a choice to disobey God's direct commandment. God stated that if they ate of the tree they would positively die, and that is what happened.

 

The difference between them and us is that they had no inherited imperfection to contend with. They were perfect, had a perfect set of circumstances direct from God himself, and they chose to disobey.

 

All of us since then, have inherited imperfection from them. Christ's sacrifice redeems us from this if we take advantage of it. The plan for Christ's sacrifice to redeem the human race was instituted AFTER the sin of Adam and Eve.

:iagree:

[staceyobu]

From my 15 year old daughter..

 

My daughter asked me this question about God and forgiveness, She has been told that God could forgive anyone of their sin if they believe. If they believe then child molesters, rapists, theives, murderers etc can be welcomed into Heaven. She wants to know why would God not forgive Eve? In her words all she did was eat an apple but people who have done very horrible things are forgiven and given second chances so why was God so quick to punish Eve?

 

The consequences of sin are death... for Adam and Eve... for the murderer... for us all. But, there is the promise of eternal life through Christ... and the promise is given even to Eve when God speaks to the serpent:

 

"And I will put enmity

between you and the woman,

and between your offspring and hers;

he will crush your head,

and you will strike his heel.â€

 

Christ will defeat the serpent (crush his head) and eternal life will be restored. You can also see the picture even in the garden of the sacrifice for sins... an animal was killed and they were clothed with the skins. These sacrifices were temporary, but Christ would be the final, and perfect, sacrifice.

[Murphy101]

It's so nice to be RC.:)

 

Belief is not quite enough for forgiveness.

 

And I think all Christians intuitively know this if they think it out.

 

To be forgiven one must know God, know they sinned, repent of the sin, make effort with His help to do that sin no more, and DO PENANCE for that sin.

 

Penance is not a sign that a person wasn't forgiven.

[Woodhaven]

To piggyback on that:

 

Why would he give her free will then punish her when she uses it?

 

Why would he give her curiosity then punish her when she uses it?

 

Why punish all womankind forever and ever when men didn't get the same?

 

Sounds sexist and sadistic to me.

 

God gave Eve the freedom to choose to obey, or disobey. He told her disobedience would have bad consequences. I do believe she repented and God forgave her, but there were still consequences for her bad choice.

[Cricket]

The consequences of sin are death... for Adam and Eve... for the murderer... for us all. But, there is the promise of eternal life through Christ... and the promise is given even to Eve when God speaks to the serpent:

 

"And I will put enmity

between you and the woman,

and between your offspring and hers;

he will crush your head,

and you will strike his heel.â€

 

Christ will defeat the serpent (crush his head) and eternal life will be restored. You can also see the picture even in the garden of the sacrifice for sins... an animal was killed and they were clothed with the skins. These sacrifices were temporary, but Christ would be the final, and perfect, sacrifice.

 

:iagree: God doesn't just forgive by saying "I forgive you." Someone pays the price. Christ paid that price.

 

As far as Adam's and Eve's ****ation, who knows? The Bible doesn't specifically say but I do know that in the New Testament, Adam was used as an example of fallen man and a man apart from God.

[Murphy101]

And for what it's worth, I think men got just as harsh, maybe even harsher of a punishment.

 

I have never been one of those women who laments and knashes teeth at the unfairness of not being a man. *shrugs*

[milovany]

Why would he give her free will then punish her when she uses it?

Huh. My kids have free will, and to train them to use their will well, I do give them with consequences when they use it poorly. They are free to hit their sibling when they're mad or to not hit them and perhaps to pray for them instead. They can choose what they will. But if they choose to hit, there is a consequence, and that consequence will hopefully create in them the desire to not hit in anger in the future, because this is the way of love and we are here to love. I don't see the dilemma here.

 

Why would he give her curiosity then punish her when she uses it?

Same as above. Curiosity can be a wonderful thing! But it can also be something that drags a person down and so one has to learn to use curiosity well.

 

Why punish all womankind forever and ever

In the Orthodox Christian faith, this is not the understanding of what happened. We do not believe in original sin.

 

...when men didn't get the same?[/Quote]Heheh. Some would say men got it worse. But whoever did, it can certainly be said that both Adam and Eve received consequences, as do all men and all women for the poor choices they make. Adam and Eve were offered mercy through Christ, as are we all. There's a loving God calling us home to Him, who provided a the things we need for that journey.

Edited September 10, 2012 by milovaný

[ThatCyndiGirl]

All of us since then, have inherited imperfection from them.

 

This is one of those things that never made sense to me. You have to first buy into the premise that we could inherit sin and are therefore due punishment because of it. Of course, that is AFTER the belief that all of mankind came from the incestuous relationship of Eve and her two sons. :001_huh:

[CAMom]

This is one of those things that never made sense to me. You have to first buy into the premise that we could inherit sin and are therefore due punishment because of it. Of course, that is AFTER the belief that all of mankind came from the incestuous relationship of Eve and her two sons. :001_huh:

 

:confused:

 

I think it's pretty commonly thought that Adam and Eve had lots and lots of children. After all they were told to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. I've never heard anyone claim that Eve procreated with her sons.

 

It is true that siblings would have had to procreate but this was also before commands against such things were given.

 

As far as all womankind being punished because of Eve? Only the consequence of pain in childbirth. It is through Adam not Eve that we are born sinners.

 

Cyndi, you know I love ya, girl! But, if you're gonna have an objection it should be based on what orthodox (little "o" not big "O" as I won't presume to speak for them) Christianity actually teaches, not a straw man argument.:)

[ThatCyndiGirl]

:confused:

 

I think it's pretty commonly thought that Adam and Eve had lots and lots of children. After all they were told to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. I've never heard anyone claim that Eve procreated with her sons.

 

It is true that siblings would have had to procreate but this was also before commands against such things were given.

 

As far as all womankind being punished because of Eve? Only the consequence of pain in childbirth. It is through Adam not Eve that we are born sinners.

 

Cyndi, you know I love ya, girl! But, if you're gonna have an objection it should be based on what orthodox (little "o" not big "O" as I won't presume to speak for them) Christianity actually teaches, not a straw man argument.:)

 

But, even if they had lots of kids......how would it NOT be incestuous if all of mankind started from two people? I'm not trying to be funny. I'm serious. If Adam and Eve had many kids.....the kids had to mate with each other, no? I'm not seeing any other possibility here. :confused:

[CAMom]

But, even if they had lots of kids......how would it NOT be incestuous if all of mankind started from two people? I'm not trying to be funny. I'm serious. If Adam and Eve had many kids.....the kids had to mate with each other, no? I'm not seeing any other possibility here. :confused:

 

Definitely and I said that above. However, this was before any command against family procreating was established. They definitely would not have known any differently, right?

 

Additionally, the consequences of birth defects, etc. are a result of the progression of sin. Those things did not exist in the early history of mankind beginning at Adam and Eve.

 

Geneolgy was also important in that Christ had to be traced back to Adam. Adam was the first representative of mankind and in him humankind fell into sin. Christ became the second representative of mankind in His perfect life, death, burial, resurrection and ascension.

[justamouse]

But, even if they had lots of kids......how would it NOT be incestuous if all of mankind started from two people? I'm not trying to be funny. I'm serious. If Adam and Eve had many kids.....the kids had to mate with each other, no? I'm not seeing any other possibility here. :confused:

 

The other possibility is that Adam and Eve are two mythic archetypes, and that doesn't make them any less real, it just makes the story all the more true (human nature and ego are very true things, no? God's love and plan of salvation are also very real). Genesis isn't a story of HOW God made the world, it's a love story as to WHY He made the world.

 

We have Ego (sin) though the inheritance of being human!

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Yeah, that didn't make it any better. :001_huh: I love you, too, Ronette! (I always want to put an 'r' on the end of your name. Ronetter!)

[CAMom]

Yeah, that didn't make it any better. :001_huh: I love you, too, Ronette! (I always want to put an 'r' on the end of your name. Ronetter!)

 

That's OK. :) I just want you to disagree on what Christians actually teach rather than a misunderstanding of it!:grouphug:

[Murphy101]

This is one of those things that never made sense to me. You have to first buy into the premise that we could inherit sin and are therefore due punishment because of it. Of course, that is AFTER the belief that all of mankind came from the incestuous relationship of Eve and her two sons. :001_huh:

 

Meh. Incest has been around a very long time and it's well understood it wasn't always viewed as negatively as now. Gotta start somewhere.

 

We inherit many things. Poverty, eye color, accents, mutations... Why is the idea that we inherit our human nature such a far stretch to believe? In fact, I think you do believe that. Unless you know some perfect human? What about humans makes them imperfect, if not their own fallen nature? A nature they inherit by necessity from their ancestors? They can improve in various ways, but never completely escape that fact.

 

But, even if they had lots of kids......how would it NOT be incestuous if all of mankind started from two people? I'm not trying to be funny. I'm serious. If Adam and Eve had many kids.....the kids had to mate with each other, no? I'm not seeing any other possibility here. :confused:

 

No, that would be a reasonable conclusion. Not sure what it has to do with sins being forgiven tho??

[Little Nyssa]

Not if they just BELIEVE-- if they REPENT.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Yeah, I believe in human nature, as in most humans behave in similar ways. But,...the idea of ME being inherently ****ed to Hell (thus in need of saving) because of something SHE did? NO.

 

That's like, "Martha ran a red light so Cyndi has to pay the ticket" (Centuries later). :confused:

[PeacefulChaos]

And for what it's worth, I think men got just as harsh, maybe even harsher of a punishment.

 

I have never been one of those women who laments and knashes teeth at the unfairness of not being a man. *shrugs*

:iagree:

I can't think of any way in which men 'have it better' than women anyway. :rolleyes:

Definitely and I said that above. However, this was before any command against family procreating was established. They definitely would not have known any differently, right?

 

Additionally, the consequences of birth defects, etc. are a result of the progression of sin. Those things did not exist in the early history of mankind beginning at Adam and Eve.

 

Geneolgy was also important in that Christ had to be traced back to Adam. Adam was the first representative of mankind and in him humankind fell into sin. Christ became the second representative of mankind in His perfect life, death, burial, resurrection and ascension.

I also wanted to add that this was common for a good bit of time, especially in the OT - they would go back to their mother's family to find a wife, etc. It was the norm at that time to marry from your own 'clan' so to speak. :) Now we're like :ack2: but then it was just life. :)

[TXBeth]

It's so nice to be RC.:)

 

Belief is not quite enough for forgiveness.

 

And I think all Christians intuitively know this if they think it out.

 

To be forgiven one must know God, know they sinned, repent of the sin, make effort with His help to do that sin no more, and DO PENANCE for that sin.

 

Penance is not a sign that a person wasn't forgiven.

 

I agree that belief in itself is not enough. The Bible says that even the demons believe, and tremble. Repentance is necessary. But if some sort of penance or restitution is required, then what is the purpose of Christ's death? And what do you make of 1 John 1:9?