This is incredibly sad and troubling to me...

[Audrey]

I've been trying not to think about that. :(

 

I wonder if they even know how damaged that poor child is, that she doesn't even see her tormentors as "bad." Where is her self-worth? They "just don't understand children," and back in school is where she belongs?

 

Heartbreaking.

 

 

Exactly. The child has been mentally assaulted, emotionally raped. And, they sent her back.

 

They. Sent. Her. Back.

[Renee in NC]

Woo. Things are getting kinda mean.

 

I took it that bbkaren was referring to ADD type problems and not severe legitimate problems in her post. Not said in the gentlest manner, certainly not, but it seemed that she was only speaking of ADD.

 

I've been here awhile and I've seen plenty of threads where we've all speculated and wondered at the sudden rise in ADD/ADHD dx's in the past couple of decades. So, I didn't think it was unusual for someone to have posted her skepticism about ADD dx's, and wondered if the problems in schools weren't related to permissive parenting instead of medical dx's.

 

I also never took her to mean that she agreed with using the closet as a discipline method, while some people did think she agreed with it. Later, when she was distressed that people thought she agreed with the closet method, and she tried to clarify, she was accused of snark.

 

Eh. I don't know why I'm posting this. I guess it's because it seems like people are jumping on her for things she didn't even say/do.

 

Yes, probably so. I personally think that the rise in ADD/ADHD diagnoses comes from the changes in school itself. When I was in school, we had two short recesses and one longer recess everyday. This was in addition to PE, which happened once or twice a week. They don't have that anymore.

 

In addition, my 3yo's preschool classroom is set up the way my K class was. Group work, centers, etc. The K classes today are the 1st/2nd grade classes of the past. Boys in particular may not be ready for that yet, and they get labeled because they are young and aren't ready for serious academic work.

 

That doesn't negate ADHD, but rather shows how less accommodating the world is today than in the past. (At the same time, special needs were handled very badly in the past, so I am not looking at the "good ol'days" either.)

[Kathryn]

Um, so I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but .... I thought ADD and ADHD have been overdiagnosed and that it was common knowledge. :001_huh:

I just feel like it's very frosty in here and I'm not clear on why the PP saying that was so controversial, or why it deserves her being ripped to shreds... Just saying.

:leaving:

 

Because this thread is not about over diagnosed ADD. It's about children who are locked in "seclusion rooms" because of their behavior. She mentioned ADD in her post, but not exclusively. And the kinds of diagnoses that would be related to the OP topic are more things like autism, bipolar, ODD, MR, etc. Those of us with children who look "normal" but can't control their behaviors have heard all too often about how if we'd just be more x or less y, all our problems woud be solved. To generalize that the "real issue" is not the inappropriate handling of special needs children or discipline in schools in general, but instead is lazy parenting, is just not going to go over well.

 

She came out later and said that she feels her son was incorrectly diagnosed and medicated to make her and other people's lives easier. That may be the case. Or maybe he was better able to control himself as he aged, as many are. At any rate, her experience does not translate into "the real issue" with inappropriate school discipline tactics being over diagnosis of "ADD/Learning Disabilities and behave problems," as she stated.

 

But I think the real issue is...a lot of these kids have never seen a boundary. Hence, they act out when presented with structure and boundaries. They are then "classified" and plopped on drugs to control their behavior.

 

That and a heap of excuses (I mean "diagnoses") that give the parents an easy way out rather than put the effort into raising their children the right way.

 

Of course that's not the case in all situations, but it seems to me that we suddenly (in the last 15-20 years) have a LOT of kids with ADD/Learning Disabilities and behavior problems.

[pdalley]

Because this thread is not about over diagnosed ADD. It's about children who are locked in "seclusion rooms" because of their behavior. She mentioned ADD in her post, but not exclusively. And the kinds of diagnoses that would be related to the OP topic are more things like autism, bipolar, ODD, MR, etc. Those of us with children who look "normal" but can't control their behaviors have heard all too often about how if we'd just be more x or less y, all our problems woud be solved. To generalize that the "real issue" is not the inappropriate handling of special needs children or discipline in schools in general, but instead is lazy parenting, is just not going to go over well.

 

She came out later and said that she feels her son was incorrectly diagnosed and medicated to make her and other people's lives easier. That may be the case. Or maybe he was better able to control himself as he aged, as many are. At any rate, her experience does not translate into "the real issue" with inappropriate school discipline tactics being over diagnosis of "ADD/Learning Disabilities and behave problems," as she stated.

:iagree:

 

I'm was offended - not by the ADD thing - but the reason for this thread. It happened to my boys and no, they did not and will not go back to that place.

 

But since the topic was the use of seclusion rooms and the remark was made that kids needing such intervention had a lack of structure and rules then yes, I got upset. Absolutely not the case here nor with any special needs parents I know in real life.

 

They don't give you anything but a diagnosis in most cases. We don't get a manual or a how to book. Most of what SN parents learn is through trial and error and success is hard fought and hard won. We get blamed for everything - for not reacting soon enough, for over reacting, for too much discipline, for not enough discipline, for arguing to much with 'fill in the profession here', for not arguing enough. You get tired of hearing it.

[justamouse]

Later, when she was distressed that people thought she agreed with the closet method, and she tried to clarify, she was accused of snark.

 

 

This

 

Wait. What?

 

It's gotten off track a bit, so I can see why you're having trouble keeping up.

Another poster asked (paraphrased): "At the same time, how does a teacher handle disruptive kids in the classroom, and still teach the others?"

 

And I stated my opinion on why there are so many disruptive kids.

 

I NEVER remotely said I agree with putting a child in an isolation closet. Please.

 

is snarky.

[justamouse]

Exactly. The child has been mentally assaulted, emotionally raped. And, they sent her back.

 

They. Sent. Her. Back.

 

They did send her back, and if I'm correct, she was in therapy, so it must have been with the blessing of a therapist that they sent her back? Or, they ignored the therapist?

 

Which I cannot understand, either.

 

The whole thing is a disaster.

[SKL]

I don't think the problem with autistic kids is poor discipline by and large. I also don't think that's what the pp was saying.

 

I will say this, though. With the lax parenting that has become basicaly the norm, a teacher with a special needs child in the class doesn't have only that problem. She has a room full of kids who don't behave properly AND one who pushes her to (or sometimes over) the limit. She can't attend to the needs of the "one" child because the rest of them haven't been expected to control themselves, either. I'm not talking about diagnoses here. I'm talking about special snowflakes who can do no wrong in their parents' eyes.

 

As for this little girl. Some of the language here (emotional rape?) seems inappropriate to the situation. The child was in the lighted "closet" in the morning. She'd been in there (and out) five times that morning. Now what that tells me is that she could not have been left in there for "hours." More likely she was sent in there for a few minutes at a time. Some of the pps are talking like she was left in a dungeon to rot or something.

 

The little girl had speech and language problems. She had to pee, and my guess is that she hadn't been able to communicate that. Perhaps she got all in a tizzy while trying to express that she had "some" issue, but the teacher didn't understand. She took off her clothes and the teacher probably had no idea why at that time. The teacher is now thinking she has a stripping trantrumer on her hands so she leaves her in the lighted closet while her parent comes to pick her up.

 

My questions would include: how much did the parent do before this to help the teacher understand this verbally-challenged child? Had they worked out a plan for when the girl needed to go to the bathroom? Whose responsibility is that, anyway? You send a kid to KG, the teacher has a right to expect that the child can handle her bathroom needs, unless the parent has made a concerted effort to communicate with the teacher.

 

I don't like the whole lock'em up thing, but I don't know if we're talking about a few seconds/minutes or some longer time period. We don't really know what the child did to earn this treatment. We also don't know that this is a school policy vs. one teacher making a decision on her own.

 

Another thing. If my kid acts up - special needs or not - I would rather they get a spank on the butt than be locked up in isolation for an extended time period. The sad thing is that they do this because it's considered more humane. It is not.

 

Now I wonder how someone is going to twist my words over the next hour or so . . ..

[swellmomma]

:iagree: I've got three of them. What does that say about my parenting skills or lack thereof? :001_smile:

 

And oh yeah, all three of them also have a form of ADD - one is the H part, one is the daydreamy part and one is mixed - hyper distracted one moment and daydreaming the next. All of them are unorganized - not because we don't work on it. A hallmark of ADD is poor executive functioning skills.

 

No, none of them are medicated for ADD - one is on medication for explosive rages which are a byproduct of the autism and hyposensitivity, two others are on medication due to anxiety that left one of them pulling his own hair out and the other being unable to verbalize.

 

I am offended at the suggestion that structure and discipline would fix my kids and it's just bad parenting anyway and I conned someone into diagnosing them. And if I'd just be more strict they would not have had meltdowns at public school and been stuck in a seclusion room that greatly resembled a mop closet.

 

Furthermore I always chafe when someone makes an assumption about something I've lived with for sixteen years now when they are basing their opinion on 'google searches'.

 

I too have 3 with ADD/ADHD among their list of issues. How I wish I could parent it out of them. How I dream of them being "normal" and not struggling. If only it could be cured by a specific form of parenting. I would follow it to 'T' if there were.

 

What is offensive and is causing so many to jump on the poster is that she said the majority of kids with ADD/ADHD, behavioural disorders, and Learning disorders was because they have no boundaries and parents are failing at their job of parenting. For parents who bust their butts 100 times harder with their SN kids than any parent of average kids has to, that is plain offensive. The parent of a young average child has NO CLUE what raising kids with ADD/ADHD, LD or behaviour disorders is really like, or how much G-d freaking darned hard work goes into raising and teaching them. To presume that they are that way due to a lack of boundaries and parenting is extremely offensive.

 

THAT is what has everyone's hackles up. Those that agree with her can come live my life for a week and then presume to tell me it is due to a lack of boundaries and/or poor parenting. Be my guest. I would love to have a week off to actually be lazy.

[AvasMom]

Um, so I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but .... I thought ADD and ADHD have been overdiagnosed and that it was common knowledge. :001_huh:

I just feel like it's very frosty in here and I'm not clear on why the PP saying that was so controversial, or why it deserves her being ripped to shreds... Just saying.

:leaving:

 

You and me both. I think there is a vast difference between saying ADHD is overdiagnosed and some of these kids may not actually have ADHD and saying it is CAUSED by poor parenting. My impression is that she is asserting the former. My son struggled a LOT in school. With reading, with being fidgety, etc and it seemed that once the school started hitting. Rick walls with the reading strategies they presented the conversation suddenly became that he may have an inattention problem. Too convenient if you ask me. But I can only speak to our situation and I only have a bachelor's degree in nursing. I suppose that makes me a dumba$$ too. Oh well.

[swellmomma]

:iagree:

 

I'm was offended - not by the ADD thing - but the reason for this thread. It happened to my boys and no, they did not and will not go back to that place.

 

But since the topic was the use of seclusion rooms and the remark was made that kids needing such intervention had a lack of structure and rules then yes, I got upset. Absolutely not the case here nor with any special needs parents I know in real life.

 

They don't give you anything but a diagnosis in most cases. We don't get a manual or a how to book. Most of what SN parents learn is through trial and error and success is hard fought and hard won. We get blamed for everything - for not reacting soon enough, for over reacting, for too much discipline, for not enough discipline, for arguing to much with 'fill in the profession here', for not arguing enough. You get tired of hearing it.

 

You worded this so well. The bolded is exactly what life is like and then in addition to all that you have people who have no clue deciding to play arm chair shrink and decide that just the fact you got a Dx at all was wrong and you are playing the system or abdicating your responsibilities as a parent.

[justLisa]

:iagree:

 

I'm was offended - not by the ADD thing - but the reason for this thread. It happened to my boys and no, they did not and will not go back to that place.

 

But since the topic was the use of seclusion rooms and the remark was made that kids needing such intervention had a lack of structure and rules then yes, I got upset. Absolutely not the case here nor with any special needs parents I know in real life.

 

They don't give you anything but a diagnosis in most cases. We don't get a manual or a how to book. Most of what SN parents learn is through trial and error and success is hard fought and hard won. We get blamed for everything - for not reacting soon enough, for over reacting, for too much discipline, for not enough discipline, for arguing to much with 'fill in the profession here', for not arguing enough. You get tired of hearing it.

 

Well said. Isn't it so easy to point the finger? I see a lot of garbage but you never know how it really is. What is looks like to me on the outside may not be real. I have learned to just have compassion in general. It's hard as hell to parent. Let alone SN kids. I don't have one, but I am close enough with 2 families of ADHD kids to see enough of it. I mean at one point this 4 year old boy made me want to die just being with him for half an hour. His mother parents him 24 hours a freakin day. Nothing she does ever works but she keeps on. It was an eye opener.

 

The thought of a child locked some place makes me want to vomit. And sending the kid back. Wow. I about cried when I read the girl took her pants off so she did not wet them. That is just pure evil.

[Audrey]

They did send her back, and if I'm correct, she was in therapy, so it must have been with the blessing of a therapist that they sent her back? Or, they ignored the therapist?

 

Which I cannot understand, either.

 

The whole thing is a disaster.

 

 

If the therapist suggested sending her back, then I also question the humanity of the therapist as well as that of the parents.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Audrey

[Ghee]

A few of things...

 

First, the author gives several incidents where children were harmed, but the incidents could not be more different. One child is stuffed and sealed in a duffle bag. That is unforgivable, and I can't think of a single crime that would fit that punishment. Then he tells about a sixteen year old who was restrained, and died, on a basketball court. He says this followed an altercation. I can't see the problem with a 16 year old being physically restrained if they are out of control. The autopsy revealed an enlarged heart, so who is to say that the restraint triggered the cardiac arrest (could it have been the exertion of playing, if they were a player)? I'm unclear as to whether he thinks both cases were the fault of adults in charge.

 

Second, the author does clarify that his daughter was in the closet for up to an hour at a time, daily, over the course of 3 months. That is much more extreme than the occasional 5 min in the coat room or hallway to cool off. when I worked in PS I was one of the "go to girls" (meaning underpaid admin staff who got to fill in wherever we didn't have someone free for the job) for secluded students. Students were isolated when they could no longer be maintained in a classroom. Where their disruption of class or threat to others had grown too great. We only had 3 students in my almost 5 years of work that were repeatedly isolated. When they were, I (or one other woman) had to sit with them in a small room. The room had a desk for them and a desk for us. They could go to the restroom as needed, but only if accompanied from classroom to door of bathroom by us. We could not go to the bathroom unless we called in someone to relieve us, they were not to be left unattended for ANY reason. Many times this took us away from our actual jobs and caused a hardship on us or those depending on us for the other job, but it's what was done.

 

Third, it did not say that she was back in the same public school. It said she was back in public school, and she had forgiven the adults involved. that could mean she is working through resentment and anger with the therapist while attending a different school. It wouldn't be what I would choose, but perhaps they felt safe trying another school.

[kitten18]

My now 11yo ds was diagnosed mildly MR and referred for special education for life skills. The psych said he did NOT have ADHD. Why? Because he could behave. We worked really hard to make sure that he had structure and boundaries, and that he could control himself. He was on a preschool level, had severe language delays, and had almost no motor planning skills. At 9, a psychiatrist put him on Vyvanse to "up his processing a little." That was 2 years ago this coming week.

 

He started 5th grade this year on grade level, with no language delays. He is a very bright kid whose brain is developing rapidly every day. He is an amazingly hard worker, a very good kid, and a great student. If he doesn't have his meds, you can see it in his handwriting - that is how bad it is for him.

 

So, yes, I get VERY upset when people say this, because I believed it, too. I wanted him to behave, and he did. But, because I focused so much on his outward behavior, he suffered for YEARS "stuck in his own head." Those are his words to describe the fog in his brain before meds. He could behave, but he couldn't do anything else while all of his attention was on behaving.

 

Now I have a 6yo who is doing the same, and I hope that due to our previous history, the doctor won't dismiss the idea of ADHD because she can behave. I want her to be able to behave AND achieve at the level she would otherwise.

 

I talk about this all the time, because I want other parents to know that sometimes the answer is right in front of you, but you can't see it through the stereotypes.

Renee,

Your posts about your son have had a big impact on me. I watch my

DS (6) closely, for now I can make modifications for him at home (short, active lessons) and he's learning fine. But if that changes in the future I won't hesitate to have him evaluated.

[Juniper]

I've read extensively in the primary research literature about ADHD and other mental/behavioral disorders in children, on the way to earning my Ph.D. in clinical psychology. I am currently a research faculty member in the Department of Psychiatry of a medical school, and although children's psychopathology is not my current field, I am quite aware of the standards of evidence for making claims about psychology/psychiatry.

 

You are misinformed. The existence of websites agreeing with you means very little. Any darned fool can put up a webpage asserting a claim. That does not constitute evidence.

 

Thank you! I actually swing to the side of thinking these things are underdiagnosed.

[Mimm]

Yes it is. And, what does that say about a parent who returns the child to the pow camp? :glare: I'll stop there because I have no more publicly acceptable words for this. :angry:

 

Exactly. The child has been mentally assaulted, emotionally raped. And, they sent her back.

 

They. Sent. Her. Back.

 

:iagree:

 

This is what I find infuriating. Where did people get this idea that public schools are so very necessary in a child's life that you overlook it when they abuse your child?

[Serenade]

We get blamed for everything - for not reacting soon enough, for over reacting, for too much discipline, for not enough discipline, for arguing to much with 'fill in the profession here', for not arguing enough. You get tired of hearing it.

 

Sounds like parenting all kids to me. I don't think any parent is immune to this.

[clarkacademy]

Thank you! I actually swing to the side of thinking these things are underdiagnosed.

 

With that thinking everyone should have a diagnosis. Everyone should be given special treatment. They shouldn't have to overcome anything or learn to deal in the real world. I know I am OCD I know I am ADHD and I know that because of the way I was raised I managed with life.

 

People take a young child and instead of teaching them they give a pill. They full classrooms up with them and expect teachers to deal.

[Juniper]

With that thinking everyone should have a diagnosis. Everyone should be given special treatment. They shouldn't have to overcome anything or learn to deal in the real world. I know I am OCD I know I am ADHD and I know that because of the way I was raised I managed with life.

 

People take a young child and instead of teaching them they give a pill. They full classrooms up with them and expect teachers to deal.

 

This makes no sense to me. :confused:

 

1. I cannot say what another parent does within their home. What they do and do not teach.

 

2. Although I fully believe in giving these children meds to help them, the meds don't make them behave. They just help them actually be in a position to control their behavior in the first place. They still have to be taught how. :confused:

 

There is nothing like having your daughter of 11 look at you after one day on meds and say, "Thank you, Mom, for listening to me and taking me to the Dr. I can feel my brain slowing down." and then that same child proceeds to have a heartfelt, one on one conversation, something she has not been capable of her entire life.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

With that thinking everyone should have a diagnosis. Everyone should be given special treatment. They shouldn't have to overcome anything or learn to deal in the real world. I know I am OCD I know I am ADHD and I know that because of the way I was raised I managed with life.

 

People take a young child and instead of teaching them they give a pill. They full classrooms up with them and expect teachers to deal.

 

 

A diagnosis allows you to know how to teach your child to overcome and deal with their differences. It isn't an excuse, but it can provide an "ah-ha!" moment and help find ways to help. Not getting proper treatment can exacerbate a problem.

 

Parents don't have much of a choice about sending kids to school and expecting a teacher to deal. So often it is the school demanding a kid just be medicated so no one at school has to "deal".

 

This whole thread is baffling me. SO much judgement.

[pdalley]

With that thinking everyone should have a diagnosis. Everyone should be given special treatment. They shouldn't have to overcome anything or learn to deal in the real world. I know I am OCD I know I am ADHD and I know that because of the way I was raised I managed with life.

 

People take a young child and instead of teaching them they give a pill. They full classrooms up with them and expect teachers to deal.

 

We don't teach our boys that they don't have to deal with the real world or that they deserve special treatment. They are taught that every single person has problems and they are to learn to manage their particular problems as well as they can and to do what they can to make sure those problems impact others as little as possible. If taking medication helps them achieve that goal then so be it. Medication cures nothing. It helps them manage their conditions. Would it be better if I didn't give my middle son the tiny dose of Zoloft that keeps him from pulling his hair out or my youngest son the tiny dose of Zoloft that keeps him communicating with the world? Or the tiny bit of Risperdal that keeps my oldest from going from zero to sixty meltdown wise?

 

I did not expect the teacher to just deal. What I expected and did not get was team work. I went to the meetings. We made IEPS. We made BIPS. They were not followed. Hence we had behavior problems that were - to quote the juvenile probation officer - a manifestation of their disability. When the school called me to come get them I was there as fast as I could safely get there. They put my kids in a room that resembled a mop closet. My kids still deal with that. They do not want to get near those buildings again. The thought makes their anxiety skyrocket. So we homeschool. Not every parent can.

 

I could not disagree more with what you posted. I have yet to see that in the special needs population in our area and it's a large one due to some of the services available. Of course there are bad diagnosis and people who medicate for the wrong reason but I refuse to believe it's common or the majority.

 

Just like homeschooling. Because of a few bad apples are we all lazy and neglectful? No. Not even close.

[pdalley]

Sounds like parenting all kids to me. I don't think any parent is immune to this.

 

It wouldn't make you feel worse to hear some professionals imply your child would be 'normal' if you were a better parent? You're a stronger person than I. Most of the time it doesn't get me but when you deal with the amount of professionals a special needs parent does then you can get quite enough of that opinion. Not to mention the people in public when your kid is having a meltdown and you can't get out of the store fast enough. Or your kid is stimming and everyone in the store stares. Or your kid is talking too loud and everyone has an opinion on why he does it?

 

How would you like it if your mother - on her death bed - told you that your kids would never be full functional adults? When she knew that your entire life was pretty much taken up with that goal in mind - that they be independent productive adults. Would that not make a person more sensitive to hearing things like this?

[Elizabeth in MN]

Those rooms are legal in Minnesota. They have to have a seat, a light, and an adult outside the room. If I did that to my child CPS would kick in the door and rightly be spiriting my child away from me.

 

Makes me so mad to think about!

[Juniper]

I wanted to explain why I think ADHD and other special needs issues are not over diagnosed. I do believe there is an element of misdiagnoses, but we have come a long way in our understanding of these special needs issues.

 

Let's take my 3 kids as a test case. I have 1 that has the intense impulse control element. He had some hyperactivity and attention issues, but nothing major. Very well behaved and kind kid in general. But he kept doing very dangerous things. Things that when he was little people would say, "Wow! He is all boy isn't he?!" By the time he was 9 he had ripped out adult teeth, multiple concussions, and other high risk behaviors.

 

Finally, after the teeth incident, I started the process of seeking out a diagnoses and treatment plan. After hours of interviews and tests we started a medication. The change was miraculous and humiliating. Oh! How I wish I had not been so afraid of the stigma of ADHD.

 

Ds is an identical mirror twin. He did not have the impulsivity issues and always slipped under my radar, because he was easier to parent than is brother. I was missing his ADHD, because it was different than his twin's.

 

These boys were always just a little behind in school, but such charmers that they got away with it. As they aged though, they were falling further and further behind, because they just could not slow their brain down.

 

So what if my son could never sit through a meal and ended up standing to eat. (Even if I stood over him prepared to shove him back down, removed privledges, sent him from the table, you name it...he was just an ACTIVE boy!)

 

The positives changes since I stopped fighting this reality have been humbleing.

 

Now, onto my daughter. I never saw her issues as being related to ADHD. She was diagnosed with audio processing disorder and sent to speech therapy, but nothing changed.

 

4 years later...2 years after her younger brothers diagnoses...I took her in for a well check with our new ped. He said, "I need to ask you a question. You are aware that ADHD presents itself very different in girls than in boys?" I knew he was hinting at something, but I still just wasn't ready to see it. Once he had opened that door I did research and sure enough, even her speech issues could be attributed to ADHD to some degree.

 

A couple weeks later she asked if she could talk to her Dr. about ADHD (not in that coherent of a statement, but I understood what she was asking).

 

It wasn't as if meds changed her...they allowed her to be her.

 

Back to why I think it is underdiagnosed. If it hadn't been for twin A's dangerous impulse issues, I would never have sought a diagnoses for the other two. They would have suffered with this and no answers for a very long time.

 

I have a sister who is right now in a very rough place, because my parents could not be brought to medicate as well as teach coping skills. I have an aunt who is in her 50's, burned every relational bridge in her life, still borrowing money from her parents, alcoholic.....who was just diagnosed with ADHD (Impulsive type, which might explain the peeing on cop cars in the 60's), placed on meds and has been sober since.

 

As to meds being an easy fix, I just can't fathom it. I have to go to the Dr. every 30 days for a written prescription that I can then take to the pharamacy. I cannot get automatic refills and my kids have to be rechecked by their ped every 90 days. At the ped, I am constantly being given resources to help me better understand and parent these children. This is not easy, or simple in any way!

[stripe]

Exactly. The child has been mentally assaulted, emotionally raped. And, they sent her back.

 

They. Sent. Her. Back.

 

Do you think it's clear she was sent to the same school or one with a similar program? Because I couldn't figure it out. If they did, I certainly am as aghast as you are, but, if they found some utterly different public school, I don't know that it's the fault of school (the institution) -- is it the fault of that school / those schools / those people / that disciplinary mindset? I don't know what to think.

[SKL]

I probably have ADD. However, I am very concerned about the idea of dealing with something chemically when it's not life-threatening. Whether it's a "real diagnosis" or not, should the experts not be focusing on non-chemical solutions that actually diminish the problem permanently, or develop positive coping mechanisms, so the individual won't have to be dependent on interventions throughout life?

[Juniper]

I probably have ADD. However, I am very concerned about the idea of dealing with something chemically when it's not life-threatening. Whether it's a "real diagnosis" or not, should the experts not be focusing on non-chemical solutions that actually diminish the problem permanently, or develop positive coping mechanisms, so the individual won't have to be dependent on interventions throughout life?

 

 

I am just going to answer this from my perspective. The medication makes it so my kids can do two things: 1. Attempt to catch up, stay, or advance beyond where their peers are both academically and socially. To learn...either academics or behavioral subjects they need to be able to focus and stay alive (speaking to the case of the child with the impulse control issues.)

2. To learn the coping skills they will need whether on meds or not.

 

In talking with their Drs we are hopeful that with hormonal changes after adolescence they will be able to come off meds. To not medicate them now, would be to doom them to falling hopelessly behind in many areas.

 

The experts focus on both.

[justamouse]

If the therapist suggested sending her back, then I also question the humanity of the therapist as well as that of the parents.

 

My thoughts exactly.

[Barb_]

I probably have ADD. However, I am very concerned about the idea of dealing with something chemically when it's not life-threatening. Whether it's a "real diagnosis" or not, should the experts not be focusing on non-chemical solutions that actually diminish the problem permanently, or develop positive coping mechanisms, so the individual won't have to be dependent on interventions throughout life?

 

The life-threatening part is the dividing line for our family. I have 4 children out of 7 with attention issues. One adhd was never a danger to herself and learned to cope, one is the dreamy type is just difficult to focus, but one began to put herself in mortal danger as she grew older, and my son did the same sort of things twice in one day on a trip to a different city. Adhd kids are terribly accident prone because they just DON'T THINK before doing things like climbing onto a 4th floor balcony for a better look at something. In those cases, medication is better than tragedy.

[Barb_]

 

It wasn't as if meds changed her...they allowed her to be her.

 

:iagree: This.

[justamouse]

It wasn't as if meds changed her...they allowed her to be her.

 

Back to why I think it is underdiagnosed. If it hadn't been for twin A's dangerous impulse issues, I would never have sought a diagnoses for the other two. They would have suffered with this and no answers for a very long time.

 

I have a sister who is right now in a very rough place, because my parents could not be brought to medicate as well as teach coping skills. I have an aunt who is in her 50's, burned every relational bridge in her life, still borrowing money from her parents, alcoholic.....who was just diagnosed with ADHD (Impulsive type, which might explain the peeing on cop cars in the 60's), placed on meds and has been sober since.

 

As to meds being an easy fix, I just can't fathom it. I have to go to the Dr. every 30 days for a written prescription that I can then take to the pharamacy. I cannot get automatic refills and my kids have to be rechecked by their ped every 90 days. At the ped, I am constantly being given resources to help me better understand and parent these children. This is not easy, or simple in any way!

 

:grouphug:

 

You're reminding me of my first son.

 

If anyone thinks this stuff is made up...like people WANT to be this way? To have that much pain? To self inflict that much pain?

 

If good parenting were all it took...

[TravelingChris]

THere are many different issues being discussed here.

 

My opinions=

 

Overall, I don't think ADHD is overdiagnosed in this country. The countries made up of immigrants have the highest rates of diagnosis. Those immigrants, however long ago, were the most likely to take a potentially dangerous adventure to a new land= hence, many ancestors with ADHD. The non ADHDers were more likely to stay in the original countries, hence, less diagnosis.

 

Two, ADHDers are not the ones getting locked up in these rooms. ADHD kids may shout out impulsively, forget homework, loose pencils, etc, but the typical behaviors that lead to seclusion rooms are more likely to be shown by other disorders such as Schizophrenia, Bipolar, Autism, etc. not ADHD.

 

Three, some people are trying to get false diagnosis for money. Those people aren't typically in the wealthy school districts but tend to be the poor people since those are the ones who can benefit from the money. A diagnosis of some of these disorders gets the family a monthly check. I have no idea why, for example, anyone is getting a check for having an ADHD child. Such a child may need medication that could be provided or therapy that could be provided but why someone should just get an extra 500 dollars or 1000 dollars a month is a mystery to me, a parent of two and possibly three ADHDers.

 

Fourth, I completely agree with Audrey that this return to that public school for this girl was inhumane.

[Mrs Mungo]

I think you're being silly now, If her story about her son has nothing to do with the rest of us, then why should I give any weight to your own family's examples? I can say the exact same thing about your child, then, having nothing to do with me...it doesn't seem like a very good way to discuss the topic.

 

Because her post was about her inability or unwillingness to discipline, not about her child.

 

She said (paraphrasing) "excuses, I mean diagnosis," she was rude and snarky, not a little different. You think it is silly for people to be upset that they were told that their kid's diagnosis is just a convenient excuse?

 

Eta: Giving a non-add kid Ritalin would not even work to calm them down. It is the ADD kid's differing brain chemistry that causes stimulants to slow down their brain.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[Audrey]

Do you think it's clear she was sent to the same school or one with a similar program? Because I couldn't figure it out. If they did, I certainly am as aghast as you are, but, if they found some utterly different public school, I don't know that it's the fault of school (the institution) -- is it the fault of that school / those schools / those people / that disciplinary mindset? I don't know what to think.

 

No, I don't think it's clear if they sent her back to the same school or not, to me, that is irrelevant. She was institutionally abused and they have tossed her back to the same institution.

 

Now, as long as this thread is ranting about bad parenting and being judgmental, let me just state I fully stand by my judgmental opinion that sending her back to public school is egregiously bad parenting.

[Mimm]

With that thinking everyone should have a diagnosis. Everyone should be given special treatment. They shouldn't have to overcome anything or learn to deal in the real world. I know I am OCD I know I am ADHD and I know that because of the way I was raised I managed with life.

 

People take a young child and instead of teaching them they give a pill. They full classrooms up with them and expect teachers to deal.

 

Ok I was going to stay away from this particular aspect of the thread, but this post frustrated me. Just because someone wants a diagnosis, does NOT mean they want to give their child a pass on learning to deal with their issues. Most (all?) parents seek a diagnosis because want want to understand their child better and help them overcome their particular difficulties.

 

Maybe this sounds like special treatment to you. And if so, yes, I think EVERYONE should have special treatment. One of the main reasons my husband and I believe in homeschooling is because we think learning should be tailored to the particular strengths and weaknesses of each individual child. I think it's an absolute travesty that our school system treats children like they are copies of each other and offers up a cookie cutter education so that when a child doesn't fit in with it, they are locked up in closets instead of given real help.

[PeacefulChaos]

Yes, probably so. I personally think that the rise in ADD/ADHD diagnoses comes from the changes in school itself. When I was in school, we had two short recesses and one longer recess everyday. This was in addition to PE, which happened once or twice a week. They don't have that anymore.

 

That doesn't negate ADHD, but rather shows how less accommodating the world is today than in the past. (At the same time, special needs were handled very badly in the past, so I am not looking at the "good ol'days" either.)

I agree. I was kind of concerned that when I sent Astro to PS we would get some flak from teachers - that they would say he needed to be medicated.

He ended up only going there for preschool, but I think had he gone for K it would have still been ok. They seemed to have pretty realistic expectations.

Because this thread is not about over diagnosed ADD. It's about children who are locked in "seclusion rooms" because of their behavior. She mentioned ADD in her post, but not exclusively. And the kinds of diagnoses that would be related to the OP topic are more things like autism, bipolar, ODD, MR, etc. Those of us with children who look "normal" but can't control their behaviors have heard all too often about how if we'd just be more x or less y, all our problems woud be solved. To generalize that the "real issue" is not the inappropriate handling of special needs children or discipline in schools in general, but instead is lazy parenting, is just not going to go over well.

 

I was wondering where an ADD statement came from, since I didn't think the girl in the article had ADD. Are ADD kids considered special needs? (Not trying to offend, just wondering.)

Are special needs kids always in regular classes? I was under the assumption that they were in a different class with a teacher who specialized in special needs, etc.

I too have 3 with ADD/ADHD among their list of issues. How I wish I could parent it out of them. How I dream of them being "normal" and not struggling. If only it could be cured by a specific form of parenting. I would follow it to 'T' if there were.

 

What is offensive and is causing so many to jump on the poster is that she said the majority of kids with ADD/ADHD, behavioural disorders, and Learning disorders was because they have no boundaries and parents are failing at their job of parenting. For parents who bust their butts 100 times harder with their SN kids than any parent of average kids has to, that is plain offensive. The parent of a young average child has NO CLUE what raising kids with ADD/ADHD, LD or behaviour disorders is really like, or how much G-d freaking darned hard work goes into raising and teaching them. To presume that they are that way due to a lack of boundaries and parenting is extremely offensive.

 

THAT is what has everyone's hackles up. Those that agree with her can come live my life for a week and then presume to tell me it is due to a lack of boundaries and/or poor parenting. Be my guest. I would love to have a week off to actually be lazy.

I'm sorry. I didn't think of it that way. I definitely don't think that all diagnoses could be 'cured' by better parenting.

Thank you! I actually swing to the side of thinking these things are underdiagnosed.

I had quoted this to say I wanted to hear more, and I did read your next post but I didn't quote it because I was getting a little quote happy :lol: but I was wondering - at what point is the line drawn (seriously asking, not in a snarky way or anything)? You talk about your son who couldn't finish a meal sitting down - there are other things, I guess? I'm just sitting here thinking about all the active boys I know and I'm just wondering how one knows when it's beyond the 'norm' of active kid (I say boys, but I know many girls who are just as active). It's all very interesting to me. I had never thought it would be underdiagnosed.

My experience with it (though, I admit, very limited) are most of what had fueled my skepticism regarding the validity of all the ADD/ADHD diagnoses. For awhile (back when my boys were very young, before Link was even school age) it was a new kid every week who I heard 'Oh, yeah, he's ADD, we put him on the meds and it's so much better!' I thought, ok... then it was adults 'Oh, yeah, I'm ADHD, now I'm on the meds and not ONLY am I better, I lost 20 lbs!' And then I really was like... :blink: To top it all off, DH has a relative who sat in on his computer (older man) all day and played video games, leaving his 9-10 year old son to occupy himself all the time. The kid was wired, he wanted to play with DH constantly, etc - and the dad was like, 'Well, he's ADHD but we don't give him his meds in the summer - that's why he acts like that.' DH and I both had a similar :001_huh: reaction because we really didn't think he was acting bad - just a bored kid wanting some attention. Obviously we had very limited interaction with him, but that was what it seemed to us at the time.

Now, granted, many of these people could really be ADD/ADHD. I can't say, I don't know all of them well enough, nor am I qualified to know these things :) . So I'm not trying to say these weren't valid. But the sudden plethora of them had me skeptical of it, and had DH ready to say he didn't even believe it existed. :lol: (He's changed his mind since, having met a really ADHD guy who explained to him what it was like 'in his head'. DH was like, 'This guy was the real deal.' I hope that doesn't offend anyone. :) I knew it did exist because I had a cousin who was ADHD and it was obvious from the time he was little - and I was maybe 10 at the time. Glaringly obvious.)

 

I know it has strayed so far from topic, but I've really enjoyed reading about the different takes on the ADD/ADHD diagnosis thing.

[PeacefulChaos]

Ok I was going to stay away from this particular aspect of the thread, but this post frustrated me. Just because someone wants a diagnosis, does NOT mean they want to give their child a pass on learning to deal with their issues. Most (all?) parents seek a diagnosis because want want to understand their child better and help them overcome their particular difficulties.

 

Maybe this sounds like special treatment to you. And if so, yes, I think EVERYONE should have special treatment. One of the main reasons my husband and I believe in homeschooling is because we think learning should be tailored to the particular strengths and weaknesses of each individual child. I think it's an absolute travesty that our school system treats children like they are copies of each other and offers up a cookie cutter education so that when a child doesn't fit in with it, they are locked up in closets instead of given real help.

 

I definitely see where you are coming from. It's like when Astro was having trouble reading - I was asking around to see if there might be a learning disability of some kind like dyslexia, I had his eyes checked, etc, etc. It was fine if he was just having trouble reading - I wasn't looking for a way to excuse that. I just wanted to be sure that I was covering the bases and wasn't negating any ideas of what could potentially help him. (FTR, he doesn't have any problems that I'm aware of.)

I also agree that one of the great things of homeschooling is being able to tailor things for the child. I shy away from the 'special treatment' idea because I feel like too many people today feel like they're 'special' as in 'more special than everyone else' ;) and I see a lot of parents building their kids up in that. But I do agree with you!

[stripe]

No, I don't think it's clear if they sent her back to the same school or not, to me, that is irrelevant. She was institutionally abused and they have tossed her back to the same institution.

 

Now, as long as this thread is ranting about bad parenting and being judgmental, let me just state I fully stand by my judgmental opinion that sending her back to public school is egregiously bad parenting.

 

I find it fairly shocking myself, but if indeed private schools expell preschoolers at twice the rate of Head Start programs, I am not sure I have much faith that public schools are in a different category. In some cases they may be less inclined to such abuses because they may be more closely regulated. Who knows.

 

As a child who was spanked in front of my preschool class, with pants pulled down, and then locked in a broom closet for what seemed like hours, after getting out of my seat to ask the teacher a question related to the assignment, I must say, I have no sympathy for this type of behavior. I found my eyes tearing up today just thinking about my own experience. And how can such things not affect at least some people and their enthusiasm for school, one can only wonder.

Edited September 10, 2012 by stripe

[Mimm]

I find it fairly shocking myself, but if indeed private schools expell preschoolers at twice the rate of Head Start programs, I am not sure I have much faith that public schools are in a different category. In some cases they may be less inclined to such abuses because they may be more closely regulated. Who knows.

 

As a child who was spanked in front of my preschool class, with pants pulled down, and then locked in a broom closet for what seemed like hours, after getting out of my seat to ask the teacher a question related to the assignment, I must say, I have no sympathy for this type of behavior. I found my eyes tearing up today just thinking about my own experience. And how can such things not affect at least some people and their enthusiasm for school, one can only wonder.

 

:grouphug: I'm sorry you went through that. That's just awful. :(

[Juniper]

 

I had quoted this to say I wanted to hear more, and I did read your next post but I didn't quote it because I was getting a little quote happy :lol: but I was wondering - at what point is the line drawn (seriously asking, not in a snarky way or anything)? You talk about your son who couldn't finish a meal sitting down - there are other things, I guess? I'm just sitting here thinking about all the active boys I know and I'm just wondering how one knows when it's beyond the 'norm' of active kid (I say boys, but I know many girls who are just as active). It's all very interesting to me. I had never thought it would be underdiagnosed.

.

 

Yes, there were quite a few other things, but since they were not life threatening, I explained them away. For him it became a quality of life choice. I know he will be able to come off meds much sooner than his twin, but the constantly getting lost in his head, inability to not invade others space, and racing thoughts/anxiety was taking major hits to his self esteem. Loosing friends, falling behind in many subjects, constantly worried about forgetting things, unable to stay in track with just a few simple instructions, and outburst of frustration/anger/tears (although not the meltdown fits his brother has) were resulting in deep wounds.

 

When i got the tiny tornado that is his twin calmed down, I could see him being tossed about like a toy boat on a rough see of dreamy distractedness.

 

By virtue of twindom he had ADHD, but the real question was would meds create enough difference to justify their use? When a parent gets to that point all they can do is try them. One of the major misconceptions out there is that the stimulants work like anti-depressants. That it will take weeks for you to see changes, but it isn't true. If your child has ADHD you will see positive changes immediately (although there may be better med options to look into later.)

 

For my kids the quality of life does justify the use. But, with both my non-impulsive types it was a ton of little things that added up to some very stressed, floundering kids whose lives were only going to get more difficult as they aged. These are the kids that are often not diagnosed, but can really benefit. Also, as others have said, meds do not go hand in hand with a diagnoses. It is a choice we all make together in our home.

 

Both dh and I would be diagnosed if we wanted to be, but since we don't have the impulsive component we use different management tools.

 

I also think we are going to see a huge rise in adult diagnoses. There is a huge link between ADHD and addiction. Programs like AA provide the stability, routine and skills that help those with this disorder.

 

Okay, I will stop rambling now! :D

 

Edited: I have a 4th son who is completely neuro typical and the difference is astounding!!! That kid, even with his frustrations, pains, goofyness, humor and temper, is a cake walk compared to the other three.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Juniper

[Cindyg]

I find it fairly shocking myself, but if indeed private schools expell preschoolers at twice the rate of Head Start programs....

 

Just a possible explanation on why this might be true (and not unreasonable). My nephew was "expelled" from private preschool during the first week. He had serious behavioral issues. He was a very complicated child with no filters and no impulse control. (I say "was" because he is much better now.)

 

The private preschool was in no way prepared to handle such a child. They had no special ed facilities or special ed teachers. He was a total disruption, and they just had no way to manage him.

 

The private school my son attends now says in their introductory literature that they have no ability to work with special needs kids -- no specialists, no facilities, no alternate curriculum, no flexible schedule, etc. If a special needs kid somehow were to slip in to their program somehow, he would very quickly be "expelled."

 

The public school programs can't "expel" these kids, and have to have some way to educate them.

 

So that may be where this statistic comes from.

[Laura Corin]

These kids were frequently institutionalized before, so were "invisible" to most of society.

 

But is that necessarily bad? In my own youth: I remember a boy in my class in the late 60s who would run out of the classroom and run around the playground screaming. He would lie with his head on the table whilst failing to write. He was constantly in trouble. He wasn't naughty - there were other children who were identifiable trouble makers and I could tell the difference - there was something else going on. He didn't learn at primary school - I don't know what happened to him after we all went to different senior schools.

 

And my brother: perfectly bright but with inadequate writing. He spelled badly and couldn't express himself on paper. He failed every exam he took except art, despite being very ashamed and trying very hard. I suspect that he has some kind of LD, but in the 60s he was just considered a bad student. His school career set him up for a life of failure.

 

Laura