Problems counting backwards in math. Any input?

[HFClassicalAcademy]

My ds is finishing up Saxon1 and he still has problems filling in the blanks on those counting backward problems. He is fine and can count to 100, by 2's, by 5's, by 10's, by 100's, etc.

 

He can do the problems if they don't lie between numbers. Example: 25,24, 23, 22, __, __, __. He has problems with that. From 90 to 89, 80 to 79, etc. is the biggest frustration!!!! The only place he doesn't get stumped is going from 19 down.

 

We practice and he still has problems getting it right away. Is this a developmental thing or am I just not practicing enough? Any advice or insight is greatly appreciated.

 

Liz in NC

[prim*rose]

I don't have any experience with Saxon at all, but in Rightstart we did a "Comes Before" game. I'd ask dd "What number comes before 93" and she'd answer. If that doesn't help, I wonder if it's that he doesn't see the pattern of it all?

[classicHSmom]

I'm interested in the replies you get. DD has the same problem and one other as well (hope this isn't hijacking your thread). She also has a hard time with place value, 10's and 100's. Once she gets to a double or triple digit number, she can't figure out how to add 1 or 5 or 10 without difficulty. I have picked up some Singapore math in hopes of supplementing my Saxon.

 

I'll be following this thread.

[Alice]

It sounds like your ds is older than mine so this might be too easy...but I made a big hundreds chart on a piece of posterboard. Then every now and then I'll get it out and we'll play some kind of variation of number bingo. I started by just calling out a number and then he had to put something on that number (in all honesty it's usually M&M's and then he gets to eat them at the end of the game :)). Then I'll say something like "put a M&M on the number that is one less then 79" or "the number that comes before 50". He's looking at the numbers so it's not doing it from memory but I've found that just playing games with the chart has helped him see the relationships better without me even talking about them. For example one day he was looking at it and starting noticing that all the 30's lined up and all the "6s" lined up vertically. I think it helped him to "see" those numbers better.

 

Another thing I did when working on counting backward from twenty with him is make a big numberline out of banner paper. I also have some giant foam dice (although you could use regular dice). Then I'll tell him to start on a random number and have him roll the dice. Then he has to count backward that many. So he starts on 15, rolls a 5 and has to count backwards 5 spots. He does this while jumping from number to number. Again, he's looking at the numbers so it's not from memory but I've noticed that doing this helped him to be able to do it from memory. It just seemed to help it stick in his head.

[Laura Corin]

We spent a lot of time being rockets and blasting off. We started with counting down from ten, then went to larger numbers.

 

Laura

[fractalgal]

We spent a lot of time being rockets and blasting off. We started with counting down from ten, then went to larger numbers.

 

Laura

 

:iagree: If you have the Saxon manipulatives, which my children love, you could have your child practice on the one hundred number chart a few times. Then have him say it back to you without the chart complete with "Blast Off!"

[Starr]

Rockets here too.

[Penny]

Your child doesn't seem to understand the base 10 system. Mine had the same problem. I was also using Saxon.

 

The problem with Saxon is that it doesn't have decent manipulatives. Counting bears are pretty much worthless. I fought my child endlessly trying to get him to understand numbers until I realized that numbers were like the ABC's to him. Think about trying to memorize all that! At least with the alphebet we only have 26 letters!

 

Saxon is paper based. My child would have never understood with a paper based program.

 

You really need the RightStart abacus and their method of teaching counting (including skip counting). You must start over and teach your child counting the 'math way'. RightStart will absolutely solve this problem and give your child a better foundation where you can go into Saxon later.

 

I don't use RightStart past 1st grade or so because I don't have a child who is math gifted, and I feel that the RS program is too advanced. However, Level A is FANTASTIC and every child would benefit from it. I would start over with Level A (it will be way too easy in some cases but it will teach you the methods and it will teach him how to count forwards/backwards by two's, odds, etc) and give your child a great foundation. Once you learn the RS methods, you can teach him using other programs. I like Rod and Staff because it is so thorough and mastery based with lots of review. Some children may think it boring. But when a child does Rod and Staff he really knows math basics.

 

Hope this helps. I've written this kind of e-mail a hundred times and usually for no reason. So, I almost passed you up due to time constraints.

 

Penny

 

PS. I also tried MUS but RS is better when explaining our number system.

[Laura Corin]

I used to have Hobbes crouched down in the sitting room, counting down, then he would blast off and jump around the room. Then he would 'land' on a planet, where he would discover that the inhabitants would only speak in a particular times table. The conversation would go something like

 

H: 2, 8, 16, 4, 10?

Me: 4, 6!

H: 20, 18, 10, 14?

Me: 6, 4.

 

Hobbes would 'translate', telling me that he had picked up more fuel. Then he was ready to 'blast off' again.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[HFClassicalAcademy]

Your child doesn't seem to understand the base 10 system. Mine had the same problem. I was also using Saxon.

 

You really need the RightStart abacus and their method of teaching counting (including skip counting). You must start over and teach your child counting the 'math way'. RightStart will absolutely solve this problem and give your child a better foundation where you can go into Saxon later.

 

 

 

I don't understand what you mean by counting the "math way." Could you give an example? My ds can skip count with no problems, so I don't think that's the problem.

 

Just want to get a clear understanding what exactly you meant. I would really hate to start over on anything!! :001_smile:

 

Thanks for the input!

Liz in NC

[Penny]

I don't understand what you mean by counting the "math way." Could you give an example? My ds can skip count with no problems, so I don't think that's the problem.

 

Just want to get a clear understanding what exactly you meant. I would really to start over on anything!! :001_smile:

 

Thanks for the input!

Liz in NC

 

Liz,

 

My child could skip count with no problems but had no understanding of what he was doing. It was like memorizing a song. He did not understand the progression of tens. That is why backwards is so challenging. For you and me, since we understand the base 10 system, it is easy for us to figure out backwards counting. For many children, counting is simply memorization. Here's an example, what comes after "everywhere" in the song Mary Had a Little Lamb? You have to sing the song to find out. That is what numbers are to some children. It took me a LONG time to find out this was going on with my child!

 

Right Start uses an abacus and other wonderful manipulatives that beautifully show the base 10 system. It is not like any other program. The abacus is not like a standard abacus. Please check out their website and see.

 

Counting (in all its variations) the math way is done with the abacus. The child will count the 'normal' way until ten. Then instead of eleven, he will say 'one ten one, one ten two, ..........two ten one, two ten two, two ten three...' etc. With the abacus it is obvious the number of tens and ones that are shown. Then the child will start practicing backwards and over time will begin to understand the number of tens changes when adding and subtracting. After time, the child will count to 'ten tens' and realize that this number is 100. Then ten hundreds makes 1000, etc. My children can easily see that 155 contains 15 tens. Now this helps them enormously in things like long division and subtracting and adding. Mental math becomes much easier. Understanding large numbers is easier.

 

This is just one example of what the program offers. The other manipulatives and games are wonderful.

 

I understand about switching. We went half way through Saxon 3 before switching. And somewhere in there I tried MUS too! RS was the answer to my children understanding math, but now I use Rod and Staff on my math challenged child (and he is doing fabulous) and CLE math on my more gifted one. I like Rod and Staff better because it has made my challenged student better at mental math than my gifted! However, for the basic understanding of math, Right Start can't be beat and I still pull out that abacus sometimes.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Penny