s/o s/o redshirting: cutoff dates

[JennyD]

Prompted in part by the recent discussions on the boards, I was chatting with my mother about redshirting and how my May birthday second grader is one of the youngest in his religious school class because of the local private school's unofficial cutoff date of June. In the course of this conversation, I discovered that my mother did NOT skip a grade in school, as I had always thought (she is a year younger than her two oldest friends) but rather, the cutoff in 1940s NYC public schools was April 30, and she has a mid-April birthday. Who knew? As she likes to remind me, there is much I do not know about her. :tongue_smilie:

 

She also mentioned that when my brother and I were children, the cutoff in our district was October 30.

 

So what's with all of these shifting cutoffs? How do these get set, anyway? And what sort of factors would be behind changes?

[Dinsfamily]

Prompted in part by the recent discussions on the boards, I was chatting with my mother about redshirting and how my May birthday second grader is one of the youngest in his religious school class because of the local private school's unofficial cutoff date of June. In the course of this conversation, I discovered that my mother did NOT skip a grade in school, as I had always thought (she is a year younger than her two oldest friends) but rather, the cutoff in 1940s NYC public schools was April 30, and she has a mid-April birthday. Who knew? As she likes to remind me, there is much I do not know about her. :tongue_smilie:

 

She also mentioned that when my brother and I were children, the cutoff in our district was October 30.

 

So what's with all of these shifting cutoffs? How do these get set, anyway? And what sort of factors would be behind changes?

 

When I was a kid, there was no cutoff for our district. My little sis (32 now) entered 1st grade at 5yrs 9 mths. We also didn't have public K back then. My July birthday didn't seem late at all since many of my friends had fall birthdays. None of them were born after Nov.

 

I think that it has changed quite a bit and we see more red-shirting because Kindy is very different from when we were little. Many of my friends didn't even attend one. I will say that I remember being VERY bored in 1st grade because I could already read and a lot of time was devoted to learning how to read. First graders here are expected to be reading.

[Dmmetler]

What happened here was that they looked and discovered that the youngest kids in the grade statistically tested lower. So, they pushed the cut-off back from December to September. Guess what? The youngest kids in the grade STILL test lower-so there's discussion of pushing it back until June, and many parents hold kids with summer birthdays back. I'm guessing if they get the June cutoff, they'll end up with parents holding back most kids born after January!

 

When my DD was tested and qualified for early entry to K, one reason why we agreed to let her enter at 4 1/2 was that she was only 6 weeks past the cutoff, and after all, that wasn't a big deal. We hadn't realized that she'd have classmates turning 7 before she turned 5-and that's exactly what happened. She made it through the year-but now that she's homeschooled, I've tended to put her at her age-grade for non-academic activities simply because despite having a birthdate that should make her one of the oldest in her age-grade, she often is barely in the middle of the pack age-wise, and physically she's young for her age.

[Dmmetler]

What happened here was that they looked and discovered that the youngest kids in the grade statistically tested lower. So, they pushed the cut-off back from December to September. Guess what? The youngest kids in the grade STILL test lower-so there's discussion of pushing it back until June, and many parents hold kids with summer birthdays back. I'm guessing if they get the June cutoff, they'll end up with parents holding back most kids born after January!

 

When my DD was tested and qualified for early entry to K, one reason why we agreed to let her enter at 4 1/2 plus a bit was that she was only 6 weeks past the cutoff, and after all, that wasn't a big deal, especially since all her readiness tests said she was more than ready to be in K. We hadn't realized that she'd have classmates turning 7 before she turned 5, though, and while she was FINE socially as in a group of older 5/young 6 yr olds, it was a bit of a social stretch to be with older 6/young 7 yr olds. She made it through the year-but now that she's homeschooled, I've tended to put her at her age-grade for non-academic activities simply because despite having a birthdate that should make her one of the oldest in her age-grade, she often is barely in the middle of the pack age-wise, and physically she's young for her age.

[elegantlion]

My mom, who is in her 70s, was educated in a one room schoolhouse. One year a new teacher was determining grades for everyone. My mom was the only one in her grade (mid-elementary if I remember right). The teacher didn't want to mess with one person in a grade, so he bumped her up to the next grade just because.

[Soror]

I don't know what the cut-offs were for my school but I had a late june birthday and entered k the year I turned 5, my brother had an early Aug b-day and started k right after turning 5 as well. My brother did struggle with academics but always had more social skills than I did.

[Lolly]

Some of it has to do with what they do in school. K used to be almost exclusively play. In fact, K didn't used to exist in public schools. Kids went into 1st grade to start learning their letter sounds and basic number theory. Carrying and borrowing in math were never done until 2nd grade. Multiplication and division? not touched until 3rd. Now, kids are expected to come out of K reading basic readers. Multiplication and division starts in 2nd. 1st and 2nd grade used to be half a day with several recess times. Now, K is a full day with a couple of recesses. There is a lot more sit still expected. All that requires a lot of maturity from a child.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

My birthday is mid-May and they let me into kindergarten at age 4 (I turned 5 a week before school was over.) Dh was held back in kindergarten and did an extra year of it. I'm glad because we met in high school and if we had gone to school now I would have been a freshman and he would have been a senor and we likely wouldn't have met.

 

The cut off for kindergarten here just became November 1, and I think they are moving it to October 1 next year, and September 1 after that. Not sure why, though.

[Ellie]

Regardless of when the cut-off date is, there will always be some children younger, and some older, than the rest of the children in class. So the best cut-off date, IMHO, is one that gives children the most oportunity to be as mature as possible when they start school. And if I were TPTB, I wouldn't let parents muddle with the cut-off date. If the dc are supposed to enter first grade when they are 6 by September 1, then that's what I'd require.

 

Happily for everyone, I'm not TPTB. :D

 

I don't think I ever checked the birthdates of the other children in groups my dc were part of. It never ocurred to me to ask. So I'm always sort of like this :blink: when someone knows what the birthdates are for the other children in classes like Sunday school or religious education.

[nertsmommy]

When I was in school (early 80's) our cut-off was Nov. 30th. I was 6 days past that and had to wait a year. Now, where I live, cut-off is the beginning of June.

[Kathryn]

When I was a kid, SC's cutoff was Nov 1. It is now Sept. 1.

[Wheres Toto]

I don't know what the cut-off was when I started school (1974) but I turned 5 the very end of July and I wasn't the youngest one in most of my classes.

 

Our cut-off is October 1st but it is very very common for the school to recommend that boys with late summer birthdays wait. And maybe even any summer birthdays.

 

My oldest has a late April birthday and she was often one of the youngest in her class because all the kids with June, July or August birthdays were almost a year older instead of being the youngest.

 

I think it has a lot to do with the expectations. Kids are expected to be able to sit still, pay attention, be quiet, go to the bathroom on schedule, eat on schedule. A lot of 5 year olds would have a hard time with it, especially given only 15 minutes of recess, and phys ed only once a week.

[NASDAQ]

In BC, our cut-off is Dec. 31, same as it was when I was in school.

[FairProspects]

The cutoff was Dec. 1 when I was in school, it is now Sept. 1 officially, but as I posted in the other thread more like March unofficially with red-shirting (and that may be generous, I know people who have red-shirted their Jan. b-day kids). A gal at Tae Kwon Do yesterday mentioned that she had red-shirted her 3rd grader with an April b-day, and when she asked the teacher if he was the oldest, the teacher said definitely not, that she had several kids older even than him.

Edited September 7, 2012 by FairProspects

[LisaKinVA]

California was the same for my parents' generation: December 2nd.

 

Worked fine for my aunt (who was born Dec. 15), I was bored out of my mind (Dec. 30th), my mom struggled socially, and although part of the GT crowd, felt "dumb" (Nov. 24th).

 

IMO, there are good reasons to "red shirt" and their are poor ones. As long as schools are "one-size-fits-all" red-shirting is going to be an issue. If schools had more flexible programs, it might be less of an issue.

 

Our district has (or had) entrance evaluations for K. I linked a form similar to what we saw with our oldest.

 

My oldest DS (8/99) failed (social/developmental "delays" with fine motor skills...academically advanced)

No issue with DD (1/02), although dx with speech delays, not an issue.

DS (7/03) would have failed (social/developmental delays, dx dysgraphia...academically advanced. He has much more significant issues than ds #1, and also further ahead academically)

DD (7/06) would have failed (social/developmental...academically average)

 

Social/developmental delays could include anything from intensity, sensitivity (cries when teased), inability to sit-still, follow directions.

 

We have been told that if we "pushed," they might have taken ds #1, but probably would have insisted on a full evaluation to include possible ADD/ADHD dx (I have been told that things like this are fairly routine, especially for boys who are at the younger end of their grades.) My oldest son is definitely NOT ADD/ADHD, he just needed some time to mature.

 

Testing is HUGE here. I'm sure that's where a lot of the pressure comes from. In any case...my kids are where they would have been based upon K Readiness and birthday. If any push forward and decide to graduate "on-time" vs. where they are right now, there is no law precluding that change. Right now, all of my children would be 18 when they graduated...either 18y6m, 18y9m or 18y11m

[dbmamaz]

I know the school i went to as a kid, the cut off was some time in december - my sister's birthday was 12/29, and i remember there being some discussion, but they put her in. She was always the youngest kid in her class, and she struggled a lot. She was average academically (which, in my parents eyes, was the same as failing) and she worried herself sick the first day of class every single year. By 4th grade, my mom started to wonder if pushing her to go early had been a mistake - but my mom worked full time, so it was that or another year of private kindergarten.

 

In our last school district, i dont remember, but our current, the cut-off is 5 by september 30th for K. My youngest's birthday is 9/6, and i was pressured to red-shirt, but we resisted. He did ok academically, but was in trouble ALL the time. Honestly, i'm not sure that would be much different this year in 4th!

 

We had one neighbor whose son entered K and was held back. She was actually ok with it - she pointed out that, at the end of year play, he didnt participate at all, he just stood there silently, but the second year of K, he did fine at the play.

 

although i saw one poster disagree, I also remember academics being much, much slower. I clearly remember being introduced to individual letters in 1st grade. i also have clear memories of being in the advanced math group in my private K, and it was still shapes and patterns.

[KidsHappen]

Most of the places I have lived, the cut off was mid to end of Sept.

[Ellie]

Most of the places I have lived, the cut off was mid to end of Sept.

Same here. :-)

 

California's cut-off was December 2 for many, many years, but TPTB have finally figured out that December is way too late, and they're moving it back, eventually, to September. Maryland used to be the end of December, but I think that's been changed, too. South Carolina used to be Oct 1; one of my brothers' birthdays is October 2, so, yeah, he missed a whole year because of that. Then we moved to California, where the cut-off was December 2, so he was quite a bit older than most children in his classes.

 

Anyway, I think a September cut-off is much more the norm.

[AdventureMoms]

Cutoff here is Dec 1, which is the same one that I grew up with. My parents were encouraged to start me a year early though, because I had a January birthday. They did not. My boys are November babies, so should technically start full-day, fully academic kindergarten at age 4. And half-day UPK at age 3. Because of the UPK (which EVERYONE does, though it is not required) Kers are expected to be ready for even MORE academics, from what I understand. Unless they turn out to be unusually mature, I can't imagine that working out well, so I would probably redshirt if they were doing PS.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Back when my fil started school in the Philippines, they didn't have cut-off dates. You had to be able to reach your arm over your head and grasp your other ear. If you could do that, you were big enough to start school!

[kitten18]

Some of it has to do with what they do in school. K used to be almost exclusively play. In fact, K didn't used to exist in public schools. Kids went into 1st grade to start learning their letter sounds and basic number theory. Carrying and borrowing in math were never done until 2nd grade. Multiplication and division? not touched until 3rd. Now, kids are expected to come out of K reading basic readers. Multiplication and division starts in 2nd. 1st and 2nd grade used to be half a day with several recess times. Now, K is a full day with a couple of recesses. There is a lot more sit still expected. All that requires a lot of maturity from a child.

:iagree:

 

 

 

Technically I redshirted my kids because the cutoff here was Dec. 2 when they started school.

 

ETA - their birthdays are in October

[kitten18]

Back when my fil started school in the Philippines, they didn't have cut-off dates. You had to be able to reach your arm over your head and grasp your other ear. If you could do that, you were big enough to start school!

:lol:

Maybe I shouldn't laugh. Maybe there is something to that?:confused:

[Jean in Newcastle]

:lol:

Maybe I shouldn't laugh. Maybe there is something to that?:confused:

 

Laugh away. He always does when he tells us how it was done when he started school! :D While it probably has something to do with how much their arms have grown, it would say nothing of their actual readiness for school subjects.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

Back when my fil started school in the Philippines, they didn't have cut-off dates. You had to be able to reach your arm over your head and grasp your other ear. If you could do that, you were big enough to start school!

 

:lol: I just asked ds5.75 to do it and he could only do it with his arm a bit behind his head. I guess he wouldn't be ready. :tongue_smilie:

[eloquacious]

Son #1 (Feb 2008) will be 5 years, 6 months when he enters K (aka the new 1st). He will be 18 when he graduates high school.*

Son #2 (Apr 2010) will be 5 years, 4 months when he enters K and 18 when he graduates.*

 

We will be afterschooling, not homeschooling. If we were homeschooling the whole matter would get exponentially complicated. For instance, I refer to this as my older son's K4 year because he is doing K-level work (Singapore, HWOT, etc.) and reading well beyond that.

 

I'm hoping for a third, but depending on when he/she is born, and how he/she develops, I would totally be open to "redshirting." I think it's a decision that should be left to the families, and that we should extend grace to those who have made it. There are so very many reasons why families might choose to go that route, not just "to give their children an edge."

 

(The charter high schools we are hoping for have the option to graduate early, or do advanced/college level work during senior year. If they choose to go that route, they may leave school at 17, but I would prefer they stay and do the advanced work. ;) )

[In The Great White North]

The school where some of my dc started claimed a June 1st cut-off date, but what they really meant was Jun 1 - Jan 1 "we'll consider it" and the prior Dec 31 - Jun 2nd is OK. It was a Waldorf school and had several of the "reach over your head and grab your ear" type of tests for those "under consideration." They had multi-year, mixed age kindergartens, so it was no problem to hold a child in kindy another year.

 

It wasn't unusual to have 7 year olds starting first grade.

[Lolly]

I know the school i went to as a kid, the cut off was some time in december - my sister's birthday was 12/29, and i remember there being some discussion, but they put her in. She was always the youngest kid in her class, and she struggled a lot. She was average academically (which, in my parents eyes, was the same as failing) and she worried herself sick the first day of class every single year. By 4th grade, my mom started to wonder if pushing her to go early had been a mistake - but my mom worked full time, so it was that or another year of private kindergarten.

 

In our last school district, i dont remember, but our current, the cut-off is 5 by september 30th for K. My youngest's birthday is 9/6, and i was pressured to red-shirt, but we resisted. He did ok academically, but was in trouble ALL the time. Honestly, i'm not sure that would be much different this year in 4th!

 

We had one neighbor whose son entered K and was held back. She was actually ok with it - she pointed out that, at the end of year play, he didnt participate at all, he just stood there silently, but the second year of K, he did fine at the play.

 

although i saw one poster disagree, I also remember academics being much, much slower. I clearly remember being introduced to individual letters in 1st grade. i also have clear memories of being in the advanced math group in my private K, and it was still shapes and patterns.

 

:lol:Some of the parents here are very, very young. They think when they were in K was a long time ago. :lol: They attended themselves after the change was in full swing. K not even existing doesn't seem to register.:D

[Word Nerd]

Our cutoff is age 5 by Aug. 31. My DD has an early August birthday and I didn't consider red-shirting her because she was ready.

 

When I was pregnant with her, I was in an online group with others who had due dates toward the end of August (DD came early). I remember a thread that began with a few moms discussing eventual cutoff dates and debating whether to get a c-section to ensure that their baby wouldn't miss the cutoff and have to wait a year. It seemed so bizarre to me that (assuming a doctor would agree) anyone would want to have an unnecessary surgery for something that wasn't even going to be an issue for at least 5 years if they stayed in the same location and the entry requirements didn't change. That heated discussion rivaled the shopping cart/cupcake/Santa threads here.

[mchel210]

I guess it is different in all the states. In Fl, you have to be 5 by Aug. 15 or sometime close to that...When I was in elementary it was by a later date...when my hubby was in NY it was calendar year all went to the same grade. Jan-Dec. so his best friend was a nov. child and my hubby a july and both had been in the same grade.

[Kathryn]

Our cutoff is age 5 by Aug. 31. My DD has an early August birthday and I didn't consider red-shirting her because she was ready.

 

When I was pregnant with her, I was in an online group with others who had due dates the same month. I remember a thread that began with a few moms discussing eventual cutoff dates and debating whether to get a c-section to ensure that their baby wouldn't miss the cutoff and have to wait a year. It seemed so bizarre to me that (assuming a doctor would agree) anyone would want to have an unnecessary surgery for something that wasn't even going to be an issue for at least 5 years if they stayed in the same location and the entry requirements didn't change. That heated discussion rivaled the shopping cart/cupcake/Santa threads here.

 

I remember the same discussions on YDS's September birth board.

[Ellie]

:iagree:

 

 

 

Technically I redshirted my kids because the cutoff here was Dec. 2 when they started school.

 

ETA - their birthdays are in October

See, if children are *in school*, I don't mind doing that. For a school year beginning in September, allowing children to start first grade when their birthdays are November 30 can really be problematic. But for homeschoolers...not so much.

[MissKNG]

. For a school year beginning in September, allowing children to start first grade when their birthdays are November 30 can really be problematic. .

 

Eh, depends on the child. I started school a couple months shy of 5 (December 1st cut off and my late fall birthday) and was the second youngest in the class. I didn't have any issues academically or socially. I also graduated at 17 and went off to college. The only issue was in college - I was the last of my friends to turn 21!;)

[8circles]

I haven't & don't plan to redshirt any of my boys. (Since I also plan to continue HS'ing it's moot anyway.)

 

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is - what about the kids that are redshirted for social reasons but who end-up catching-up with their same-age peers in a few years. This is what I've seen happen more often than not. Boys particularly will be redshirted because they weren't socially ready for K or 1st, but then by 3rd or 4th grade they are the most socially mature in their class & have already moved on to the likes/dislikes of their same-age peers in the grade ahead. I don't think its always the case but from my experience it is the case very often.

 

I think that K/1st/2nd grade should be accommodating to those children (mostly boys) who aren't quite ready to sit still & learn in a traditional environment but who are likely to catch-up given the time. Without holding them back. Its a shame IMO that this doesn't happen.

[eloquacious]

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is - what about the kids that are redshirted for social reasons but who end-up catching-up with their same-age peers in a few years. This is what I've seen happen more often than not. Boys particularly will be redshirted because they weren't socially ready for K or 1st, but then by 3rd or 4th grade they are the most socially mature in their class & have already moved on to the likes/dislikes of their same-age peers in the grade ahead. I don't think its always the case but from my experience it is the case very often.

 

I think that K/1st/2nd grade should be accommodating to those children (mostly boys) who aren't quite ready to sit still & learn in a traditional environment but who are likely to catch-up given the time. Without holding them back. Its a shame IMO that this doesn't happen.

 

Yes, yes!

 

I taught 6th and 7th grade a few years ago, and we had quite a few boys who had been held back. They weren't redshirted, but the effect was the same. They had hit puberty and were a total problem, socially speaking, because they were in a very different phase of life than the girls.

[Luanne]

... but they encourage parents of especially late summer birthday children to consider waiting until they are 6 to send them to K. I think there should be no cut off date and a test to see if children are in fact ready to start K. This should not only involve academic readiness, but emotional readiness as well. I'm definitely not one who thinks that all children the same age should be in the same grade. Children are so different from each other. If they had never made such a big deal about only playing and learning with children your OWN age, no one would even care or think twice about how old you were in what grade.