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did you cee this -- American High Schoolers not reading at high level


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There's more to literature than big words and baroque, intricate sentences. A book can be thematically complex and rich in literary devices while sticking to simple sentence structures and vocabulary; at least, that's what the Nobel Prize Committee thought about Hemingway and Steinbeck. By high school, the books discussed in class should be used primarily for literary analysis, not for decoding practice!

 

 

"Long words go rattling by us like long railway trains. We know they are carrying thousands who are too tired or too indolent to walk and think for themselves. It is a good exercise to try for once in a way to express any opinion one holds in words of one syllable... The long words are not the hard words, it is the short words that are hard. There is much more metaphysical subtlety in the word "d**n" than in the word "degeneration." - G. K. Chesterton

Edited by *Michelle*
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Since pulling my dd out of ps to homeschool, her reading standardized tests scores have gone up from 40 percentile to 85 percentile.

 

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This was my middle son's experience as well. He was in a Montessori school from age 3 - 7. He was in a very self-directed environment and had the opportunity to spend a great portion of his day reading and writing. We then moved about 45 minutes away into an "excellent" rated school system. His first year at the new school he tested at the highest level on the state tests in reading. By the following year, he had dropped over two levels to just barely proficient. I blame the school for this, and I still have his state testing results from that year that I refer to when I need reminded on why we are homeschooling.

 

His classroom that year did the AR program, and many of the books that he would have preferred to read, he couldn't because they were not on the AR list. The classroom only read four books that year. In addition, he had so much busywork homework at night, that it was impossible to fit in any additional reading. We began homeschooling after this horrible year. My middle son was 9 at the time we began homeschooling.

 

He took the SAT last year and, as a 7th grader, had a higher reading score than the average reading score of our public school's college bound senior. He is not a genius by any stretch. Homeschooling has given him the opportunity to read high quality literature - something the public school was unable to provide.

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A friend of our family is 21 and just starting classes at the local Community College. She came to my house last week and was complaining to me that she had to read "A WHOLE BOOK!" in two weeks. I asked her what the book was and she said, "The Hunger Games". I was speechless for a few seconds. I said that I thought that two weeks was ample time to read that book. (I listened to it on audio, so I know the level.). She then picked up the copy of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows that was on my coffee table and asked me how long it took me to read it. I told her I read it in less than 24 hours. She gasped and said it would take her a year to read a book that thick. I proceeded to tell her that if she divided the number of chapters by the number of days she had to read the book and read that many chapters each day, she should have no trouble finishing it. She wasn't very hopeful about it.

 

This whole exchange had me very disturbed for a few days. I know she was never the most motivated student. I know it's "only" community college, but really? They are assigning popular teen lit for college English classes? I was flabbergasted.

 

I don't worry about my kids. Both of them are good readers, and I assign them a new chapter book every two weeks. By the time we get to junior high and high school, they will have read at least half of what I read by the time I graduated from college.

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I'm guessing that the problem with college level reading goes well beyond being able to read literature that contains complex language. In fact, that is probably not what the study is really talking about. It is the high level nonfiction that is assigned that is going to be the bigger problem IMO.

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A friend of our family is 21 and just starting classes at the local Community College. She came to my house last week and was complaining to me that she had to read "A WHOLE BOOK!" in two weeks. I asked her what the book was and she said, "The Hunger Games". I was speechless for a few seconds. I said that I thought that two weeks was ample time to read that book. (I listened to it on audio, so I know the level.). She then picked up the copy of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows that was on my coffee table and asked me how long it took me to read it. I told her I read it in less than 24 hours. She gasped and said it would take her a year to read a book that thick. I proceeded to tell her that if she divided the number of chapters by the number of days she had to read the book and read that many chapters each day, she should have no trouble finishing it. She wasn't very hopeful about it.

 

This whole exchange had me very disturbed for a few days. I know she was never the most motivated student. I know it's "only" community college, but really? They are assigning popular teen lit for college English classes? I was flabbergasted.

 

That is crazy. My teens read all of the Hunger Games books in a week or less, easily.

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Oh, boy. The Accelerated Reader metric really really devalues modern literature.

 

William Faulkner, As I Lay Dying: 5.4

Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises: 4.4

Ernest Hemingway, For Whom the Bell Tolls: 5.8

John Steinbeck, The Grapes of Wrath: 4.9

John Steinbeck, East of Eden: 5.3

Toni Morrison, Song of Solomon: 5.0

 

"Oh my gosh, I can't believe the Nobel Prize was awarded to fourth and fifth grade books! Why don't they just award one to Beverly Cleary and be done with it?" :tongue_smilie:

 

...Or maybe there's a problem with letting a testing company's computer judge the quality of literature. It could possibly be that.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

Oy vey!! Seriously?

 

Yes, my kids COULD read these books in 5th grade....but WHY would they want to? Why would I want them to? Their maturity level would not know what to make of these books....and I sure wouldn't want to explain:D....

 

Silly, silly, silly.....

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I'm guessing that the problem with college level reading goes well beyond being able to read literature that contains complex language. In fact, that is probably not what the study is really talking about. It is the high level nonfiction that is assigned that is going to be the bigger problem IMO.

:iagree: Campbell's Bio (BIG Campbell) makes Ulysses look like Captain Underpants!
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That is crazy. My teens read all of the Hunger Games books in a week or less, easily.

 

Mine too...even dd 12 finished in less than a week...and she is a slow reader for our family.

 

Ds10, worked through all the Percy Jackson plus 2 of the next series in under 2 weeks.....beating out our 3rd year college neighbor....and I know he read well, because he now knows all the Greek gods....:D.

 

I think if the schools want to raise reading levels....kids need to have time to READ.....sigh.....

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I'm guessing that the problem with college level reading goes well beyond being able to read literature that contains complex language. In fact, that is probably not what the study is really talking about. It is the high level nonfiction that is assigned that is going to be the bigger problem IMO.

 

:iagree:

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Mine too...even dd 12 finished in less than a week...and she is a slow reader for our family.

 

Ds10, worked through all the Percy Jackson plus 2 of the next series in under 2 weeks.....beating out our 3rd year college neighbor....and I know he read well, because he now knows all the Greek gods....:D.

 

I think if the schools want to raise reading levels....kids need to have time to READ.....sigh.....

 

but they also need the expectation. The high school here, the kids i know, generally have one book a quarter for 3 quarters and do short stories the 4th. that is NOT 'enough' of a load. I do not care how much you look at the author and dive deeper into a book -- high schooler need to be reading more than 3 books a school year!!

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but they also need the expectation. The high school here, the kids i know, generally have one book a quarter for 3 quarters and do short stories the 4th. that is NOT 'enough' of a load. I do not care how much you look at the author and dive deeper into a book -- high schooler need to be reading more than 3 books a school year!!

 

 

In its ever increasing wisdom :tongue_smilie:, our local high school has eliminated reading books in English and American Lit classes. They bought anthologies of literature and will assign excerpts only. The excerpts will be read aloud in class since the students apparently refuse to do any reading at home, and this will comprise 25 - 30 minutes of class. The students will write a sentence or two about what they read....on a really awful day - I'm sure it will promote much irate complaining - a paragraph, and then there will be five minutes of discussion. After that, they'll spend the rest of the period on A.C.T. English and Reading test prep. Lots and lots of multiple choice questions and quizzes!

 

This :cursing: expresses how I feel about this school district.

 

Faith

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Faith, I saw with my own eyes the other day an assignment for college English Honors written in text speak.

 

I thought this was a joke. I laughed.

 

Turned out, it wasn't a joke.

 

Something along the lines of:

 

u b craz 2 b b leeven dat (as part of the sentence)

 

English Honors, High School Graduate :001_huh:

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Faith, I saw with my own eyes the other day an assignment for college English Honors written in text speak.

 

I thought this was a joke. I laughed.

 

Turned out, it wasn't a joke.

 

Something along the lines of:

 

u b craz 2 b b leeven dat (as part of the sentence)

 

English Honors, High School Graduate :001_huh:

 

That makes me want to cry.

 

I was considering trying to do adjunct history teaching at the local community college, but someone reminded me about having to grade papers. I had higher standards than most people when we read classmates' papers in grad school. I don't know if I could deal with today's community college student.

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I told my Honors 9 English class this year that the biggest struggle for all of them will be twofold:

 

- maintaining interest over the long haul as a book unfolds since it won't be the 20 second sound bites they are used to.

 

- delaying gratification. Big plot moments do happen. Action happens. But it isn't ALL that happens and it isn't even the primary point of the plot.

 

Getting them to realize that you may have to wade through some difficult vocabulary and sentence structure as well as long-winded descriptions of scenery to get to the "good stuff" but it is so worth it... That's my goal.

 

For these classic books with "low" reading level scores I say "poppycock".... Let's see you teach "Beloved" to a group of sixth graders (since it is 6th grade reading level) and get them to understand it, love it, and not get you fired over it.

 

 

.

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While books like "The Hunger Games" and "Animal Farm" are easy reads, I do think high schoolers get more out of them than younger students. The authors' political points and views would probably be completely lost on a ten year old. A high schooler could see the parallels between the tributes and Roman gladiators, but a 5th grader wouldn't think of it.

 

:iagree: There's more to a book than just reading level. The content of some of those books are, IMO, either inappropriate for younger students, or they would not get much (if anything) out of them. John Steinbeck didn't write children's stories. I can't imagine ds as a fifth grader, understanding Of Mice and Men, To Kill a Mockingbird, or Animal Farm. Of course he could read them, but the point of each book would be totally lost on him.

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Our local library hosts a middle school book club. Throughout the school year, it mostly consists of homeschoolers. But in the summer, it swells with school students because parents are just trying find something for their kids to do. This year the librarian actually told me, "We are going to have to read EASY books for the summer because we expect a lot of kids from the public schools to join us!" In my opinion, the books they read during the year are easy, but in the summer it just gets ridiculous.

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Faith, I saw with my own eyes the other day an assignment for college English Honors written in text speak.

 

I thought this was a joke. I laughed.

 

Turned out, it wasn't a joke.

 

Something along the lines of:

 

u b craz 2 b b leeven dat (as part of the sentence)

 

English Honors, High School Graduate :001_huh:

 

This is the only legitimate response. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

Faith

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:iagree: There's more to a book than just reading level. The content of some of those books are, IMO, either inappropriate for younger students, or they would not get much (if anything) out of them. John Steinbeck didn't write children's stories. I can't imagine ds as a fifth grader, understanding Of Mice and Men, To Kill a Mockingbird, or Animal Farm. Of course he could read them, but the point of each book would be totally lost on him.

 

i did TKAM and OMM both in 6th grade. :)

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This is such a timely thread for me. My kiddos just started going to a Christian school and I was talking with a friend about this (whose dd goes to a different private school). She was going on and on about her dd's Accelerated Reading program and how her dd (also age 8) reads at a 4.8 level and what level does my son read at? I was getting nervous. No one at my kiddos' school had mentioned an Accelerated Reading program (it sounds so fancy!). Does this mean that my kids' school is bad? :confused:

 

Did some research on my own and now I'm thankful. It doesn't sound like much of a program to me. At my friend's dd's school, they have the library shelves set up by "level" and the kids have to choose books from the particular level they are reading at. How ridiculous! I'm just going to keep encouraging my kids to read, read, read so that they will continue to love books as I do.

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I was considering trying to do adjunct history teaching at the local community college, but someone reminded me about having to grade papers. I had higher standards than most people when we read classmates' papers in grad school. I don't know if I could deal with today's community college student.

 

I do it for the few that are prepared to learn and are not distracted by their personal problems. The reality is that is usually only 1-2 in a class. And about 1/2 of my sections fail for not turning in assignments. Thankfully my administration doesn't knock me for that.

 

And yes, the level of literacy is shockingly low. I don't deal with it as much because I'm not in humanities, but the emails I receive and the paragraph summaries I require are really something. One of the guys in my department openly refuses to respond to any email that is not in standard English. He tells that they don't deserve a degree if they can't handle that ;).

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My son's high school English courses have been very tough. Each quarter is devoted to a theme (freshman year included: What is a Hero? How Does One Construct a “Room of One’s Own”? What is Justice? And, What is Courage?) which allows teachers to knit together various literary works -- novels, plays, poems and essays -- which students analyze in discussions and writing assignments. Students also spend a quarter studying and rehearsing a Shakespeare play which each class performs. Great fun but a lot of work. Last year my son's class put on Hamlet; this year it's Macbeth.

 

As for the AR program, my youngest had to endure it for a year. The point system is odd, and if a student scores high enough on the initial test, he's expected to read until he reaches a certain number of points. I call that "Reading by the Pound." My son was merely gobbling words and not knitting ideas together. I would have preferred something like the Junior Great Books program which two of my kids had for all of elementary school.

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As for the AR program, my youngest had to endure it for a year. The point system is odd, and if a student scores high enough on the initial test, he's expected to read until he reaches a certain number of points. I call that "Reading by the Pound." My son was merely gobbling words and not knitting ideas together. I would have preferred something like the Junior Great Books program which two of my kids had for all of elementary school.

 

:iagree:

 

My kids' Montessori school used the Junior Great Books program. My younger son hated the AR program our pubic school used because he was not able to choose the books he wanted to read - they had to be at a certain level and many of the titles in the AR system were not available at our small community library or the school's library. The AR system destroyed my son's love of reading. Luckily homeschooling was able to undo the damage caused by AR.

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I don't know about some of their reading level scores - Of Mice and Men is 'easier' than Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows? And Lord of the Flies is a fifth grade book? I TOTALLY agree that Twilight, The Hunger Games, and such should not be considered high school level academic reading, but their rating system really seems skewed - Elie Wiesel's Night is a 4.8, while The Lightning Thief is a 4.7? Are they looking at JUST the reading level, the words used and sentence structure employed? Because content-wise, there is no way on EARTH I would give Night or Lord of the Flies to a fifth grader unless I wanted them to have nightmares! I wouldn't consider giving either of those to my 7th grader - we're just starting to touch on difficult content later this year when we read To Kill a Mockingbird and Red Scarf Girl, but Night and Lord of the Flies are way beyond those in content.

 

But what does it mean by "grade level"?

 

Does grade level mean that they will be at the 50th percentile or higher? Or does it mean that the students will be able to read grade level materials? Because to be actually achieving on level, a student needs to be scoring at roughly the 85th percentile on achievement tests.

Regarding AR level, I don't know much about how it works. Our school district uses it, but I had noticed some of the reading levels were weird - books my grandma got out and sent home with us that I read have the date in them when I got them - I read them very soon after. The age I was and the reading level AR shows for them is like :confused: ... Makes no sense.

Unfortunately, it seems to be the only tool to figure out whether a book is something Link could read or not, for content/etc. I know that sounds silly, but I haven't read every last book out there. I haven't read all the books on my shelf that I've bought for his reading assignments. Does everyone else read them all to determine if they are at a good level for the kid? If not, how do you know? I have no interest in reading every single book both boys read for the rest of their homeschool careers. :svengo:

 

Oh, and Link read on a 7th grade level in 1st grade, according to the school and the way that they tested reading levels. :rolleyes:

This is what we did as well. When I was teaching in our co-op, though, I had quite a few moms who didn't want to put their students in my literature class because of the types of books the students would need to read. They informed me that their daughters preferred The Little House series and Jane Austen books. Seriously, I asked one mom to remove her daughter (a senior who had been a "top" student in the public school) because she obviously was not reading the material. The mom indicated that the daughter just didn't "get" the classics and would prefer not to be "haunted unto nightmares". Many of the young men in the class simply could not follow the flow of the books.

I think one really needs to lay the foundation for the "great books" early. It's awfully hard to move into them cold turkey.

 

What is a good way to do this?

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Reading level or no, I often wonder about the wisdom of handing books with deeply adult themes to children and expecting them to really have the slightest idea is being truly said. Even the most literate of children need to live for a little while, suffer a bit and know something of the wider world before they can really grasp the intentions and emotions of a master writer working at the peak of his/her powers.

 

I think sometimes the subtext and cultural background of "great literature" is far too vastly disconnected from the lived lives of reading students.

 

I'm not saying that Faulkner and Toni Morrison novels and their ilk don't belong in the middle or high school classroom, but I'm not sure that our children are well-served by literature programs that feed them material far outside their possible emotional experience.

 

As others in the thread have said, just because you can decode the words and regurgitate the plot, that doesn't necessarily mean you understand the truth of the thing.

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I think one really needs to lay the foundation for the "great books" early. It's awfully hard to move into them cold turkey.

What is a good way to do this?

Follow a great reading list, like The Well-Trained Mind, Latin-Centered Curriculum or Ambleside Online. Read lots of unabridged classics. Make reading a priority in your home. Read and discuss books as a family. Build a wonderful home library so children are surrounded by books.
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This is what we did as well. When I was teaching in our co-op, though, I had quite a few moms who didn't want to put their students in my literature class because of the types of books the students would need to read. They informed me that their daughters preferred The Little House series and Jane Austen books. Seriously, I asked one mom to remove her daughter (a senior who had been a "top" student in the public school) because she obviously was not reading the material. The mom indicated that the daughter just didn't "get" the classics and would prefer not to be "haunted unto nightmares". Many of the young men in the class simply could not follow the flow of the books.

 

I think one really needs to lay the foundation for the "great books" early. It's awfully hard to move into them cold turkey.

 

 

SO true. So, so true. The system has to be completely broken down and rebuilt and we need to apologize profusely to these kids because we've done them a grave disservice.

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Regarding AR level, I don't know much about how it works. Our school district uses it, but I had noticed some of the reading levels were weird - books my grandma got out and sent home with us that I read have the date in them when I got them - I read them very soon after. The age I was and the reading level AR shows for them is like :confused: ... Makes no sense.

Unfortunately, it seems to be the only tool to figure out whether a book is something Link could read or not, for content/etc. I know that sounds silly, but I haven't read every last book out there. I haven't read all the books on my shelf that I've bought for his reading assignments. Does everyone else read them all to determine if they are at a good level for the kid? If not, how do you know? I have no interest in reading every single book both boys read for the rest of their homeschool careers. :svengo:

 

Oh, and Link read on a 7th grade level in 1st grade, according to the school and the way that they tested reading levels. :rolleyes:

 

 

What is a good way to do this?

 

What I've been doing recently with dd, who is seven, is giving her books I think might work and just letting her try them. If they are too difficult then I will use them as read-alouds or save them for later. She just finished Wizard of Oz with no trouble and so I gave her The Princess and the Goblins, which I though might be too difficult, but so far she is enjoying it. I hadn't read it but someone recommended it to me, and when I got it from the library I thought it was possible the language would be a little complex.

 

So my approach is really not to worry to much and just see what she likes. It helps that so far she doesn't realize some things might be hard to read. Mind you, I am still giving her children's books rather than books with adult themes - it might be harder to assess whether those kinds of books would be appropriate.

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Reading level or no, I often wonder about the wisdom of handing books with deeply adult themes to children and expecting them to really have the slightest idea is being truly said. Even the most literate of children need to live for a little while, suffer a bit and know something of the wider world before they can really grasp the intentions and emotions of a master writer working at the peak of his/her powers.

I think sometimes the subtext and cultural background of "great literature" is far too vastly disconnected from the lived lives of reading students.

... I'm not sure that our children are well-served by literature programs that feed them material far outside their possible emotional experience.

 

 

I disagree. Most of the books I as an adult love have absolutely nothing to do with the live I live, or with my emotional experiences. I find books that are "realistic" and deal with lives similar to mine utterly boring and devoid of interest. (And books that dwell on problems within the experience of daily life of children are the surest way to turn my kids off reading.. because they don't care. They care about Aragorn and Achilles and Hamlet)

 

Much of great literature deals with things way outside our everyday experiences. Just take the Count of Monte Christo, for example. I have neither been falsely imprisoned, nor had a need to feel vengeful, nor discovered a treasure. The book has absolutely nothing to do with my reality - yet it has been one of my favorites since I was ten. I do not think I have had any life experiences since then that got me an inch closer to the reality of the book.

What of our lives can have any possible relevance and connection for the Iliad? Yet my 13 y/o is perfectly capable to grasp it emotionally and cry bitterly about Hector.

Or take the extreme example of books about the holocaust. It is not required to have to suffered through similar live experiences. These books are completely removed from all our lives and experiences - yet we can let the author speak to us and, through his eyes, see and feel.

 

Demanding that literature needs to "relate" to children's lives means that there will be hardly any quality literature for them to read.

 

This said, of course there are books that are not age appropriate because the children can not grasp the themes - but not, I would claim, because the book is too far from the child's reality, live, emotion;. A child who continues his sheltered life will eventually come to understand these books just from reading; the own experience is not necessary for understanding and appreciation.

Edited by regentrude
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But did you have the maturity to truly understand the subject matter? Do most 6th graders?

 

Absolutely.:001_huh:

 

Follow a great reading list, like The Well-Trained Mind, Latin-Centered Curriculum or Ambleside Online. Read lots of unabridged classics. Make reading a priority in your home. Read and discuss books as a family. Build a wonderful home library so children are surrounded by books.

 

:iagree:

 

I disagree. Most of the books I as an adult love have absolutely nothing to do with the live I live, or with my emotional experiences. I find books that are "realistic" and deal with lives similar to mine utterly boring and devoid of interest. (And books that dwell on problems within the experience of daily life of children are the surest way to turn my kids off reading.. because they don't care. They care about Aragorn and Achilles and Hamlet)

 

Much of great literature deals with things way outside our everyday experiences. Just take the Count of Monte Christo, for example. I have neither been falsely imprisoned, nor had a need to feel vengeful, nor discovered a treasure. The book has absolutely nothing to do with my reality - yet it has been one of my favorites since I was ten. I do not think I have had any life experiences since then that got me an inch closer to the reality of the book.

What of our lives can have any possible relevance and connection for the Iliad? Yet my 13 y/o is perfectly capable to grasp it emotionally and cry bitterly about Hector.

Or take the extreme example of books about the holocaust. It is not required to have to suffered through similar live experiences. These books are completely removed from all our lives and experiences - yet we can let the author speak to us and, through his eyes, see and feel.

 

Demanding that literature needs to "relate" to children's lives means that there will be hardly any quality literature for them to read.

 

This said, of course there are books that are not age appropriate because the children can not grasp the themes - but not, I would claim, because the book is too far from the child's reality, live, emotion;. A child who continues his sheltered life will eventually come to understand these books just from reading; the own experience is not necessary for understanding and appreciation.

 

:iagree: :iagree: (2 of them for emphatic agreement!)

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Follow a great reading list, like The Well-Trained Mind, Latin-Centered Curriculum or Ambleside Online. Read lots of unabridged classics. Make reading a priority in your home. Read and discuss books as a family. Build a wonderful home library so children are surrounded by books.

Good to hear. :) That's our current plan and what we're doing, I just wasn't sure if there was anything else... (You know, as a total planner I just have to be sure I'm not missing anything! :D :lol: )

What I've been doing recently with dd, who is seven, is giving her books I think might work and just letting her try them. If they are too difficult then I will use them as read-alouds or save them for later. She just finished Wizard of Oz with no trouble and so I gave her The Princess and the Goblins, which I though might be too difficult, but so far she is enjoying it. I hadn't read it but someone recommended it to me, and when I got it from the library I thought it was possible the language would be a little complex.

 

So my approach is really not to worry to much and just see what she likes. It helps that so far she doesn't realize some things might be hard to read. Mind you, I am still giving her children's books rather than books with adult themes - it might be harder to assess whether those kinds of books would be appropriate.

Yeah, that's the part I'm up in the air most about. 'Reading level' I can figure out - 'interest level' I can figure out - but there being something thrown in there that they aren't familiar with or that may be mature for them (in any area - some of the horrors of life, etc). I'm not planning on sheltering my kids, but I do want them to be introduced to things when they are ready. :)

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I haven't read all the books on my shelf that I've bought for his reading assignments. Does everyone else read them all to determine if they are at a good level for the kid? If not, how do you know? I have no interest in reading every single book both boys read for the rest of their homeschool careers. :svengo:

 

Yes. I do. I have a fairly extensive home library and I've read every book on my shelves and then some. It happens that I tend to be a voracious readers by nature, but even if I didn't, I would absolutely read every book I assign in home schooling. For the same reason that I don't have much respect for a public/private school teacher who hasn't read the book(s) she assigns to her class. It's just part of the job.

 

Their leisure reading? My olders are teens that will shortly be able to join the military, get married, and so forth. I know what they are reading, but I might or might not read it also. But otherwise I only read their school assigned materials. They are of a stage where they are more likely to say a younger sibling shouldn't read something than I am. My younger crowd is less of a concern because I've been doing this for some time now and have read extensively enough to know whether any book on my shelf appropriate for them. And usually I can tell within seconds of looking at a book from outside the house.

 

ETA: I want to note that just because something is called a children's book, I would not assume it is safe reading. Tbh, I am far more critical of the children books than supposedly adult reading. I often find far more questionable content in children's books than classics or supposedly adult reading. If I went by most of what is written supposedly to relate to kids, I'd think all kids must be living in very questionable situations with very little ability to use reason or trust adults on basic levels.

Edited by Martha
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Reading level or no, I often wonder about the wisdom of handing books with deeply adult themes to children and expecting them to really have the slightest idea is being truly said. Even the most literate of children need to live for a little while, suffer a bit and know something of the wider world before they can really grasp the intentions and emotions of a master writer working at the peak of his/her powers.

 

I think sometimes the subtext and cultural background of "great literature" is far too vastly disconnected from the lived lives of reading students.

 

I'm not saying that Faulkner and Toni Morrison novels and their ilk don't belong in the middle or high school classroom, but I'm not sure that our children are well-served by literature programs that feed them material far outside their possible emotional experience.

 

As others in the thread have said, just because you can decode the words and regurgitate the plot, that doesn't necessarily mean you understand the truth of the thing.

 

 

Thank you.

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Reading level or no, I often wonder about the wisdom of handing books with deeply adult themes to children and expecting them to really have the slightest idea is being truly said. Even the most literate of children need to live for a little while, suffer a bit and know something of the wider world before they can really grasp the intentions and emotions of a master writer working at the peak of his/her powers.

 

I think sometimes the subtext and cultural background of "great literature" is far too vastly disconnected from the lived lives of reading students.

 

I'm not saying that Faulkner and Toni Morrison novels and their ilk don't belong in the middle or high school classroom, but I'm not sure that our children are well-served by literature programs that feed them material far outside their possible emotional experience.

 

As others in the thread have said, just because you can decode the words and regurgitate the plot, that doesn't necessarily mean you understand the truth of the thing.

 

:iagree:

 

I am distressed to see great adult literature being assigned an "apropriate grade level" as if these books were somehow texts to be gotten through to move on to the next level. I want my girls to be well read, but I also want them to be mature enough to delve deeply into the content.

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But did you have the maturity to truly understand the subject matter? Do most 6th graders?

 

yes, i feel confident i understood then as well then as i do now. *shrug* I don't see either as all that hard

 

and I think most 6th graders do IF they are expected to and given the frame work for it -- ie our class discussed racism with TKAM and our teacher "lead" us though a lot of it. Maybe it was not stuff we would have thought of alone in 6th but it was sure stuff we were capable of when it was taught.

 

i think we do our children a disservice when we don't challenge them and hold high expectations for them.

 

In 7th we did a loooong unit on Jack London and I found it so boring, the books were super easy (I had read them in grade school on my own) and the "point" very simple to -- in my mind -- i remember feeling held back by the rest of the class

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I disagree. Most of the books I as an adult love have absolutely nothing to do with the live I live, or with my emotional experiences. I find books that are "realistic" and deal with lives similar to mine utterly boring and devoid of interest. (And books that dwell on problems within the experience of daily life of children are the surest way to turn my kids off reading.. because they don't care. They care about Aragorn and Achilles and Hamlet)

 

Much of great literature deals with things way outside our everyday experiences. Just take the Count of Monte Christo, for example. I have neither been falsely imprisoned, nor had a need to feel vengeful, nor discovered a treasure. The book has absolutely nothing to do with my reality - yet it has been one of my favorites since I was ten. I do not think I have had any life experiences since then that got me an inch closer to the reality of the book.

What of our lives can have any possible relevance and connection for the Iliad? Yet my 13 y/o is perfectly capable to grasp it emotionally and cry bitterly about Hector.

Or take the extreme example of books about the holocaust. It is not required to have to suffered through similar live experiences. These books are completely removed from all our lives and experiences - yet we can let the author speak to us and, through his eyes, see and feel.

 

Demanding that literature needs to "relate" to children's lives means that there will be hardly any quality literature for them to read.

 

This said, of course there are books that are not age appropriate because the children can not grasp the themes - but not, I would claim, because the book is too far from the child's reality, live, emotion;. A child who continues his sheltered life will eventually come to understand these books just from reading; the own experience is not necessary for understanding and appreciation.

 

:iagree:

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Reading level or no, I often wonder about the wisdom of handing books with deeply adult themes to children and expecting them to really have the slightest idea is being truly said. Even the most literate of children need to live for a little while, suffer a bit and know something of the wider world before they can really grasp the intentions and emotions of a master writer working at the peak of his/her powers.

 

I think sometimes the subtext and cultural background of "great literature" is far too vastly disconnected from the lived lives of reading students.

 

I'm not saying that Faulkner and Toni Morrison novels and their ilk don't belong in the middle or high school classroom, but I'm not sure that our children are well-served by literature programs that feed them material far outside their possible emotional experience.

 

As others in the thread have said, just because you can decode the words and regurgitate the plot, that doesn't necessarily mean you understand the truth of the thing.

 

I totally agree. I read "The Awakening" in highschool. Total waste of time..my thinking was still way too black and white to really get it. Read it again in college and still didn't REALLY understand the motivations...but liked it better. Read it after I had kids, and a bad marraige and wow..finally understood it, and loved it. I needed more life experience, more mature thinking, etc to handle it.

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In its ever increasing wisdom :tongue_smilie:, our local high school has eliminated reading books in English and American Lit classes. They bought anthologies of literature and will assign excerpts only. The excerpts will be read aloud in class since the students apparently refuse to do any reading at home, and this will comprise 25 - 30 minutes of class. The students will write a sentence or two about what they read....on a really awful day - I'm sure it will promote much irate complaining - a paragraph, and then there will be five minutes of discussion. After that, they'll spend the rest of the period on A.C.T. English and Reading test prep. Lots and lots of multiple choice questions and quizzes!

 

This :cursing: expresses how I feel about this school district.

 

Faith

 

Hey, I'm using that program! It's called "Writing With Ease 1". :tongue_smilie:

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I disagree. Most of the books I as an adult love have absolutely nothing to do with the live I live, or with my emotional experiences. I find books that are "realistic" and deal with lives similar to mine utterly boring and devoid of interest. (And books that dwell on problems within the experience of daily life of children are the surest way to turn my kids off reading.. because they don't care. They care about Aragorn and Achilles and Hamlet)

 

Much of great literature deals with things way outside our everyday experiences. Just take the Count of Monte Christo, for example. I have neither been falsely imprisoned, nor had a need to feel vengeful, nor discovered a treasure. The book has absolutely nothing to do with my reality - yet it has been one of my favorites since I was ten. I do not think I have had any life experiences since then that got me an inch closer to the reality of the book.

What of our lives can have any possible relevance and connection for the Iliad? Yet my 13 y/o is perfectly capable to grasp it emotionally and cry bitterly about Hector.

Or take the extreme example of books about the holocaust. It is not required to have to suffered through similar live experiences. These books are completely removed from all our lives and experiences - yet we can let the author speak to us and, through his eyes, see and feel.

 

Demanding that literature needs to "relate" to children's lives means that there will be hardly any quality literature for them to read.

 

This said, of course there are books that are not age appropriate because the children can not grasp the themes - but not, I would claim, because the book is too far from the child's reality, live, emotion;. A child who continues his sheltered life will eventually come to understand these books just from reading; the own experience is not necessary for understanding and appreciation.

 

:iagree: So, so true.

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The Great Gatsby, Night, and Animal Farm, if read for a history class, are the only books on there I would consider appropriate for high school. To Kill a Mockingbird and Of Mice and Men for remedial 9th graders. The other ones are either perfectly fine junk reads in your own spare time, or excellent selections with literary and cultural merit for middle schoolers.

Consider the author's intended audience. I doubt Orwell, Steinbeck and Hemingway were intending to have their work never again read by anyone over the age of 14.

 

As others in the thread have said, just because you can decode the words and regurgitate the plot, that doesn't necessarily mean you understand the truth of the thing.

:iagree:

 

 

I am distressed to see great adult literature being assigned an "apropriate grade level" as if these books were somehow texts to be gotten through to move on to the next level. I want my girls to be well read, but I also want them to be mature enough to delve deeply into the content.

 

I think that 'high school' covers years of intense development. There's nothing wrong with a 14yo reading Of Mice and Men or To Kill a Mockingbird. Both have worth beyond the relatively simple language and they are good starting points. The key is the development from there. Students should not still be reading Animal Farm by age 18, except perhaps in a politics course.

 

FWIW, Calvin's English course this year includes Milton, Pessoa and Shakespeare, but at the beginning of 'high school' he was reading To Kill a Mockingbird.

 

Laura

 

Frankly, college is not meant to be for everybody. It is meant to be for the top 15% or so. The study is not saying that realistically college bound students are reading at a 5th grade level, but that *average* high school students are reading at a 5th grade level. There is a huge difference.

 

That said, I don't think that high schools are doing a very good job educating anybody. If you look at achievement scores, they stagnate in high school. But this idea that everyone (or even 50% of everyone) should be college ready by the end of high school is idiotic and unrealistic.

 

Taking these three statements together, if you have a top 15% student, with a goal of reading Milton in high school, then you have a shortened timeline. How do we get the average high schooler to view these books as just the beginning of a life-long journey?

 

I'm guessing that the problem with college level reading goes well beyond being able to read literature that contains complex language. In fact, that is probably not what the study is really talking about. It is the high level nonfiction that is assigned that is going to be the bigger problem IMO.

 

:iagree:

Edited by KathyBC
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I know that sounds silly, but I haven't read every last book out there. I haven't read all the books on my shelf that I've bought for his reading assignments. Does everyone else read them all to determine if they are at a good level for the kid? If not, how do you know? I have no interest in reading every single book both boys read for the rest of their homeschool careers.

 

I do not read every single book my children read - but yes, I read every single book I assign. I carefully select which books to assign, because each assignment has to fulfill a purpose, not just add some random book to a list. The only way to decide whether a given book serves the instructional purpose is to actually read it. (I don't read it to determine "reading level")

 

I do not read the books my children pick for self-selected reading which constitutes the larger part of their reading. They are free to choose whatever they want for that.

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What is a good way to do this?

 

One of the most helpful ways I've found for introducing the more 'difficult' literature is to read aloud even through high school. That allows me to stop, explain, make connections to everyday life, etc. I think this teaches them to analyze the literature while reading the literature.

 

I never had as much success having the boys fill in answers to pages of questions found in various study guides.

 

I remember doing this with the fairy tales we read when the boys were very young. Often the boys enjoyed the story, but didn't really get the application. So we would discuss the application. This just naturally continued to books like Mere Christianity, Screwtape Letters, The Iliad, Federalist/AntiFederalist Papers, Augustine's Confessions, etc.

 

I think listening to someone read aloud trains the mind to focus. If their minds wandered, they were unable to participate in the discussion and it was very obvious. Today, I find that my boys can listen to lectures on audio tape better than many of their counterparts. Most of the people we know, including adults, have a difficult time focusing on audio without an accompanying video. And even my boys do better with a video component.

 

As a side note, I found that allowing the boys to do something with their hands quietly (legos, doodling, sharpening their pocket knives) while I read allowed them to listen more intently. Seems like it would be the opposite, but it really helped them to focus.

 

And, like Martha, I read every book I assign. I don't read all their free-reading books. But if I require it, I read it, and we discuss it.

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What is a good way to do this?

 

The question referred to "moving them into great books early".

 

With young kids, we did a lot of read alouds and listened to quality literature as dramatized audio recordings. I believe that much of the reluctance to approach great literature stems from limited exposure to complex sentence structure and limited vocabulary. Both can be remedied by having children listen to books that may still be a bit too complicated for them to read on their own. We started listening to Hobbit, Narnia, LOTR when the kids were kindergarten age.

We have seen a dramatic effect on vocabulary; they picked up so much from listening. I also believe that audiobooks and read alouds and any exposure to quality spoken language is a valuable tool to develop correct grammar. Before a child writes, she speaks, and an instinctive mastery of grammar in speaking before even exposed to any grammar rules will translate into correct grammar in writing.

 

Like CynthiaOK, I found fill-in-the-blank worksheets and study guides not useful. My kids hate them, it is busy work, and they find the questions usually fairly dumb. We prefer to talk about the books and discuss literature without study guides and scripted materials.

 

Before appreciating great books, students must read fluently and with good comprehension. So, during grammar stage, we really work on this skill by getting unlimited supplies of interesting books at the kids' level. My kids have read their share of fluff - if Goosebump motivates a reluctant reader, it has its place. The important thing is to move on to more complex literature once they have mastered the mechanics. Even later, it is not all classics and deep hard books; they still read books that are just entertaining and fun - I am cautious not to make reading a chore by insisting on world literature quality for everything they read for recreation.

 

Lastly, I think modeling works very well. We have a house full of books, many of them classics. We read.

Edited by regentrude
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