Joan in GE Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Larousse came out with a series called "Anti-fautes" in French...They are very small books (3 x 4.5") with the essentials for a certain topic... The book for spelling - has just the word entry with gender - so it is not a dictionary and not as large. But for people (evidently the French themselves need help with this) who are forgetting the gender of a word or the exact spelling, it is much quicker than paging through a dictionary or going online with a wrongly spelled word to begin with... We're looking for something like this in German - where three genders make it even more complicated to remember... Thanks! Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 I think we learned some rules about recognizing gender in German. That's a good place to start...:001_smile: I just asked ds & dd if they have learned any so far, and they said: the endings... chen is neuter er is masculine And just now ds3 showed me a section of the grammar book which covers this....and it gives a bunch more rules but it says for example: nouns in -e are 90% feminine... nouns in -el, -er and -en are 60% masculine So it would be great to find a little book that just gives the spelling and gender (though you are right to point out these generalities so that I will remind dd to try to learn these so that she already starts with an idea of what it should be. I'm going to photocopy those pages to keep them handier. So thanks loesje!:001_smile:) Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 (edited) Why not get a regular Duden? It is the German equivalent of a dictionary. It lists the word and gender (though not a definition for most words). http://www.amazon.com/Duden-Deutsches-Universalworterbuch-A-Z/dp/3411055030/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1 There are different versions, you should be able to get a cheap one. Just be careful and get one not too old if you want to use the reformed spelling (I, and many people I know, object to the changes and refuse to use them). Whichever you get: the genders have not been changed ;-) And just now ds3 showed me a section of the grammar book which covers this....and it gives a bunch more rules but it says for example: nouns in -e are 90% feminine... nouns in -el, -er and -en are 60% masculine The problem is that this still just increases your chance of guessing right: it is DER Riese, Rabe, Matrose, Hase. Many (not sure if all) nouns derived from adjectives or adverbs result in a masculine noun: rot (red)- der Rote, tot (dead) - der Tote der Blaue, der Zuspaetgekommene, der Gute.... I'd get the normal Duden which has all the German words and their gender. Edited September 4, 2012 by regentrude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 Why not get a regular Duden?It is the German equivalent of a dictionary. It lists the word and gender (though not a definition for most words). http://www.amazon.com/Duden-Deutsches-Universalworterbuch-A-Z/dp/3411055030/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1 There are different versions, you should be able to get a cheap one. Just be careful and get one not too old if you want to use the reformed spelling (I, and many people I know, object to the changes and refuse to use them). Whichever you get: the genders have not been changed ;-):001_smile: ...... I'd get the normal Duden which has all the German words and their gender. I got to the Salvation Army while waiting for my neighbor and found what I think is something like the Duden. Though I can't figure out why you call it a dictionary? But if you hadn't shared the one above, I probably wouldn't have looked twice because I was thinking it should be tiny so that it is not cumbersome to use and store. But at least we have something now and it was quite cheap (it is older though - but I thought better than nothing)... It gives der, die, das....Out of curiosity - why doesn't it just say 'm', 'f', or 'n'? Anyway, what an enormous book! It seems like there must be a lot more words in German than in English at first glance - is that true? Thanks regentrude! Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 I got to the Salvation Army while waiting for my neighbor and found what I think is something like the Duden. Though I can't figure out why you call it a dictionary? Because it is the closest we Germans have to a dictionary: it lists all words. In german, the direct equivalent to an English dictionary, one that lists definitions for all words, does not exist. We have a Fremdwoerterbuch, which lists the meaning of words borrowed from foreign languages only. It gives der, die, das....Out of curiosity - why doesn't it just say 'm', 'f', or 'n'? No idea. Because that's the way it's done? Because we identify the gender through the article? Maybe because, as in many other languages, you want to learn the article together with the word? (In French, we are taught to memorize tha article as part of the vocabulary word - we do not memorize genders separately, but simply recall "la voiture", not "voiture, f) Anyway, what an enormous book! It seems like there must be a lot more words in German than in English at first glance - is that true? No, this is most definitely not the case. English is an extremely synonym rich language, because the Normal conquest and the subsequent introduction of French as the court language gave almost all Saxon words a fancy synonym of French origin. English has many more words than German. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 In german, the direct equivalent to an English dictionary, one that lists definitions for all words, does not exist. That is fascinating - who would have guessed? We've always had French - German dictionaries so I had never known...I just told my ds3 and at first he wouldn't believe me... OK, in English, the dictionary usually has the origin of the word...Latin or Greek roots, etc...and other useful things....verb ending that change with tense, etc....Don't German people need the same thing? Maybe because, as in many other languages, you want to learn the article together with the word? That makes sense - but in the French dictionaries, it is always m or f...so I thought there muprobably st be a reason. It does make more sense to just think of it right from the start like that.... No, this is most definitely not the case. English is an extremely synonym rich language, because the Normal conquest and the subsequent introduction of French as the court language gave almost all Saxon words a fancy synonym of French origin. English has many more words than German. You made me curious and now I've read up a bit more - it seems that English is probably the language with the most words among comparable world languages... Thanks regentrude! Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 OK, in English, the dictionary usually has the origin of the word...Latin or Greek roots, etc...and other useful things....verb ending that change with tense, etc....Don't German people need the same thing? The Fremdwoerterbuch might have information about the roots. There are grammar books where one could look up verb conjugations, but I have never in my life needed to look up the verb tenses of a German verb, I just know. Not sure if other native German speakers have a need of this, we certainly never used one in school. For me, the encounter with the first English dictionary was strange, because to me, "dictionary" always referred to translations between two different languages. I found it weird that the English have a book that defines what the words mean, even the "normal" ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdj2027 Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Wouldn't a "Lexikon" be an equivalent to a dictionary? Our Brockhaus consisted of about 30 books, the one I had for school was considerably smaller :-) Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Wouldn't a "Lexikon" be an equivalent to a dictionary? Our Brockhaus consisted of about 30 books, the one I had for school was considerably smaller :-) Not really - a Lexikon has more detailed entries and not just a definition and word root. (My parents' Lexikon is many thick volumes as well, with illustrations.) A Lexicon does not list common everyday words, it would not have prepositions or normal verbs for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdj2027 Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 I really wish I could remember the name of the book we had in elementary school (unfortunately that was over 30 years ago). It had everyday words, denoted if it was a noun, verb or adjective, gave the gender and a short explanation of the meaning of the word. We (any kid I knew, not just those attending my school) used it extensively from 1st to 4th grade for vocabulary practice. I can't remember any of us using it in 5th as we had moved up to the Duden and the various books (origin, synonyms, foreign words as well as encyclopedias). Dang, there goes another sleepless night trying to remember the title ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted September 6, 2012 Author Share Posted September 6, 2012 Not really - a Lexikon has more detailed entries and not just a definition and word root. Dang, there goes another sleepless night trying to remember the title ;-) I've been thinking about this in bed too....:) The English dictionary doesn't just give one definition - but all the different definitions possible, including the word being used as a noun, verb, etc when applicable... So I'm guessing that German words tend to mean only one thing and are not used as different parts of speech??? If true, this makes the idea of the study of German less formidable - or at least it makes up for all those cases.... Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 (edited) So I'm guessing that German words tend to mean only one thing and are not used as different parts of speech??? I do not know whether this is true about multiple meanings being rarer. German words can mean different things. (A "bank" is something you sit on or something you take your money to, just like in English. A "Wiener" can be a person from Vienna or a hot dog. "Fliessend" can mean running water or reading fluently. "Einspannen" means to harness a horse or to work a person hard or to fix a part with a vise...there are many more) As for the different parts of speech: Verbs can be used as nouns; they get an article and become capitalized. (Wir lesen ein Buch - lesen=read is a verb. Das Lesen faellt ihm schwer - Lesen=the reading is a noun, a substantiviertes Verb.) Nouns can be made from most adjectives. Eine gute Tat - a good dead, gute=adjective. Das Gute im Menschen - the good in people, Gute= noun. I am not saying this to discourage you - it is actually not that hard ;-) the most important idiosyncrasy of the German language is the ability to create new nouns by stringing together nouns: Dampf=steam Schiff= ship kapitaen= captain Muetze- hat Knopf- button We can make words like "Dampfschiffskapitaensmuetzenknopf" - the button on the hat of a steam ship captain. THAT rocks. Edited September 6, 2012 by regentrude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 I really wish I could remember the name of the book we had in elementary school (unfortunately that was over 30 years ago). It had everyday words, denoted if it was a noun, verb or adjective, gave the gender and a short explanation of the meaning of the word. We (any kid I knew, not just those attending my school) used it extensively from 1st to 4th grade for vocabulary practice. What you describe might be a Grundschulwoerterbuch: http://www.amazon.de/Duden-Das-Grundschulw%C3%B6rterbuch-Kerstin-Meyer/dp/3411060662/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1346917588&sr=1-1 Look at the preview, but scroll down a few pages through the hints until you come to the actual word listings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted September 6, 2012 Author Share Posted September 6, 2012 As for the different parts of speech: Verbs can be used as nouns; they get an article and become capitalized. (Wir lesen ein Buch - lesen=read is a verb. Das Lesen faellt ihm schwer - Lesen=the reading is a noun, a substantiviertes Verb.) Nouns can be made from most adjectives. Eine gute Tat - a good dead, gute=adjective. Das Gute im Menschen - the good in people, Gute= noun. ... I am not saying this to discourage you - it is actually not that hard ;-) ...... We can make words like "Dampfschiffskapitaensmuetzenknopf" - the button on the hat of a steam ship captain. THAT rocks. Ah ha....I see that in the Worterbuch, all those "lesen"s each get their own entry! So it is partly a formatting issue......(but shedding imaginary tears here because the mountain - of learning this language - just got bigger again). At least I can look forward to trying to say words that look like they'll take a few minutes to figure out how to pronounce.:001_smile: But what do they do if it is the 'button inside the hat of the steam ship captain' since I see there are no prepositions? Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 But what do they do if it is the 'button inside the hat of the steam ship captain' since I see there are no prepositions? You would use the same word :) The word might actually refer to the button of the hat.... which can be inside or out... never pondered this, and I should really go to bed as it is past 3am... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted September 6, 2012 Author Share Posted September 6, 2012 thanks regentrude! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdj2027 Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Regentrude, similar but the words had short definitions with them. It really looked like a simplified dictionary. Maybe it had to do with the fact that our "district" was a pilot program starting English in 1st grade so while my friends and I attended a slew of different schools we all fell under the same program. Our classes tended to be pretty mixed as far as nationality was concerned. Having a book like that was a real help for kids whose native language was not German. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted September 6, 2012 Author Share Posted September 6, 2012 (edited) As I keep figuring out what is in this book I just got: Deutsche Worterbuch & Fremdworterbuch (sorry no dots above those 'o's) it seems to have very simplified definitions...(ETA - the style is so different from a typical English dictionary that I didn't recognize them at first. Here's an example: Klatschbase, die;-,-n: geschwatziger Mensch - dots over the a) I see there's a more recent version (2012) which of course costs more... Edited September 6, 2012 by Joan in Geneva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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