AOPS- perspectives please

[Mukmuk]

I'm a newbie and got re-introduced to the board after scouring the net for advice on AOPS.

 

My son is 9yo and loves math. We've done a lot of different curriculum for math for various reasons- he's dyslexic (he reads very well but his dyslexia shows up in his processing style and weak working memory), dysgraphic and has vision and auditory processing issues. He's also PG. The one curriculum he loves and has stuck to is Ed Zacarro because it's quirky and non repetitive. He's done Primary Challenge Math, Challenge Math and Real World Algebra.

 

We started AOPS Intro to Algebra about a week ago and I can see that chapter 1 is over his head (well, its doable but more over his head than most things). When this happens, he starts to zone and drift off. I've been looking for alternatives like AOPS Pre-algebra, and even paid the registration fee for classes with Derek Owens (waiting for books to arrive). But this morning, DS was very insistent that he continue with AOPS. He says some of the problems he's encountered are so beautiful. He doesn't even want to consider AOPS Pre-algebra, which he looked through.

 

Are there ways that I can help him? I've dropped the idea of scheduling and have just discovered there are videos on the AOPS site (thanks to all the suggestions in the archives!). I think perhaps it was hard for me to see him struggle for 6hours (yes, on 2 days!), mostly zoning and yet refusing to let go, only working when I "woke" him up. I also feel frustration build up on my part, which is not what I want.

 

I do explain what I can (I'm not mathy but I have the solutions manual) but it takes a while to sink in for him. He's become super forgetful in others parts of his life, more than usual. As a I write this, I'm starting to wonder if I'm too impatient, and this is a critical growth phase :P.

 

TIA!

Edited September 4, 2012 by Mukmuk
Added more info.

[wapiti]

If Chapter 1 of AoPS Intro to Algebra is truly over his head, then AoPS Prealgebra is well worth his time. Chapter 1 of Intro to Algebra involves a quick review of some topics that are covered at length in the Prealgebra book.

 

If he can move faster through the Prealgebra book, that's fine too - if he truly knows that material, have him work through the chapter reviews. If he likes what he sees in ch 1 of Intro to Alg, he'll love the Prealgebra (at least when he gets into ch 2; ch 1 isn't necessarily as much fun - depends on the kid).

 

I would consider at least one aspect of the dyslexic processing style - big-picture thinking - to be a significant asset for using AoPS. However, working memory is another matter, as is slow processing. (FWIW, my ds9 is a slow processor with a dyslexic processing style but he is not dyslexic and does not have working memory issues. He recently started AoPS Prealgebra.) For kids with issues and younger kids as well, I'd expect the need to tweak along the way. Use the white board for fun, teach him how to write out a problem in parts so he doesn't have to keep all the bits in his head at once, etc.

 

eta, could the "over his head" be less a matter of the math itself and more a matter of his other issues (including his age)? In that case I'd think about how to work around them, i.e., tweak.

Edited September 4, 2012 by wapiti

[....]

I think perhaps it was hard for me to see him struggle for 6hours (yes, on 2 days!), mostly zoning and yet refusing to let go, only working when I "woke" him up. I also feel frustration build up on my part, which is not what I want.

 

My 5th grader just started the pre-algebra book a few weeks ago, so we are by no means experts on this program. But, I just let her do a handful of problems and then we stop. I think yesterday, she did 4 problems. Could you set a timer?? Would he follow it??

 

I'd also see if you can convince him to try the pre-algebra book. The pre-algebra has videos, too.

[Dmmetler]

Especially at 9, I'd say limit time or limit number of problems. One reason I haven't jumped to AOPS yet is that I think DD's problem solving STAMINA is stretched by challenge math and some of the BA problems, even though she wants and desires algebra content, and even with what we're doing, I try to keep math to no more than 1 1/2-2 hours at a stretch, and prefer to keep it to an hour-if it ends up stretching to 2 because she's really into something, that basically means school is only math for the day, because she's fried. I also stop when she gets frustrated and hits a wall because when she gets frustrated, she's just plain DONE-which is another reason why I'm thinking that she's not ready for AOPS yet!

 

I figure that she's so young at this point that if it takes her 3-4 years to get through pre-algebra and algebra 1, she's STILL way ahead on the curve on entering high school math!

[Halcyon]

My 5th grader just started the pre-algebra book a few weeks ago, so we are by no means experts on this program. But, I just let her do a handful of problems and then we stop. I think yesterday, she did 4 problems. Could you set a timer?? Would he follow it??

 

I'd also see if you can convince him to try the pre-algebra book. The pre-algebra has videos, too.

 

I agree with starrbuck. My 5th grader just began Pre A as well, and sometimes we do as few as 4 problems. The videos are great. Your son is too young to know what is best for him in this case.

 

My vote is to have him do Pre A. He can move as quickly as he likes. Then entice him with Algebra.

[Kathy G]

 

 

, DS was very insistent that he continue with AOPS. He says some of the problems he's encountered are so beautiful. He doesn't even want to consider AOPS Pre-algebra, which he looked through.

 

 

 

 

 

I would disagree with some other posters here a little. I tend to let my kids decide more than some others. My son is a lot like yours. Dysgraphic but no dyslexia. But he hit a point with AOPS where he struggled and he truly wanted that. He too, could see the beauty of the problems. I saw his frustration (but never to the point of wanting to give up) and wanted to put him in a lower level. But he insisted that he just needed a longer time. He eventually flourished, much to my surprise. That may or may not happen with your child, but if he is asking to stay in the algebra book, it might be worth a longer chance. My DS is in precalculus now and he loves the struggle and beauty of a truly hard math problem.

 

So, I would say- you know your child better than anyone else. Listen to what they want and watch their frustration and desire levels (not yours) If I had gone by my frustration level we would have switched and it wouldn't have been the better option.

[Mukmuk]

Thanks so much for the views!

 

We got started with AOPS in the first place because his neuropsych recommended that it would be a good fit (I see now it could be this big picture thing you guys mention). He tested into Intro to Algebra, but I was hesitant because he took quite a while, so I ordered the Pre-alg books as well. When he aced a middle school math contest (the Gauss) a few months ago, I thought we could give the Intro book a shot. My biggest concern is presenting material that is too hard, because I don't want to turn him off. Maybe that's why I pressed the panic button after a week :tongue_smilie:.

 

One morning does not a school year make, but I was pleasantly surprised today. He went through most of the last section, was very satisfied with his own progress, and asked to stop after 2 hours (math is the only thing he works at for this length of time). I had a deeper look at the Pre-algebra book - it does look challenging too. So if he runs into problems at the Intro level, I'll know to channel him through the resources that I've (now) discovered, including the Pre-alg book. There is even Alcumus on the AOPS website, which is free.

 

I have to go with Kathy G. Interest and excitement in the precise curriculum is very hard to come by for my son (it took us a long time to find Ed Zacarro!). But when it hits the spot, it's lovely to watch. I'll go with what he wants and be ready to change where necessary.

[lewelma]

My son started Intro Algebra at 9 (there was no pre-algebra back then). It was HARD and he wanted NO help from me at all. He loved the struggle and often worked so hard that he would cry with frustration. He would never let me help him, that was "cheating." After a month of this, I hid the book. He cried.

 

I tried Singapore's NEM and Jacob's Algebra, and after 2 months he BEGGED to go back to AoPS. I agreed but with a few rules.

1) he was not allowed to work for more than 2 hours per day

2) if he was frustrated to the point of tears, he either had to take a break or get some help.

3) he must allow me to give him a big picture overview for 10 minutes at the beginning of each chapter.

 

These rules worked. It took him 5 months to do chapters 1-4 including Every.Single.Challenger, and if you have seen AoPS, you know how long those challengers take. And he did it without any help from me except for the 10-minute chapter overviews. At age 10 he picked up the speed and got chapters 5-13 done, and at age 11 he finished the book. 2.5 years seemed like a long time to me (although it is much more than Algebra 1), but in the end he made drastic improvements in problem solving, independence, and confidence.

 

So my main point to you is to make some ground rules so that it is a positive experience for your son.

 

Ruth in NZ

Edited September 5, 2012 by lewelma

[Mukmuk]

Lewelma, thank you so much for your advice. It reminds me that 1) I need to grit my teeth at times to grow independence and confidence; and 2) we are in it for the long haul. Definitely not just for big things, but for smaller issues like curriculum as well. Your ground rules are awesome! I will copy them. :D

 

This is a fantastic community!

[dbmamaz]

I have 2 thoughts

 

1 - couldnt he go through it and then go through it again if he doesnt get it all? i mean, i'm all for letting kids (esp advanced kids who dont need repetition) to go through material at their own pace and use it their own way, even if its not the way its intended to be used

 

2 - other than zaccaro and LOF, my son likes Murderous Maths - introduces concepts with a lot of potty humor, and has little to no problems.

[kohlby]

If chapter 1 is over his head, the Pre-Algebra would be a better pick for him. (He can do Pre-Algebra II, starting halfway through the book). However, since he really WANTS to stay in Intro to Algebra, I'd actually let him as long as he was willing to put in the time. I'd tell him that if he's not, then we would switch to Pre-Algebra. I'd supplement it heavily with Alcumus. My 9 year old started AoPS for the first time this year as well, and is doing Intro to Algebra. He went from a different Pre-Algebra that wasn't nearly as invovled as AoPS so we needed more time in the beginning. I knew he could handle Intro to Algebra - he just needed to get a few kinks worked out. Doing extra problems on Alcumus helped immensly! (Alcumus is on the AoPS website and is free. They get points for problems. For some reason, ODS is more willing to struggle through a problem on the computer than in a textbook).

 

I had started with MUS Algebra I at the end of 3rd grade and he got through a third of the book when I abandoned it for AoPS. It wasn't challenging him enough and was boring us both far too much. Plus, I thought it was overly simplistic for my advanced critical thinker. I had worried that my son would get too frustrated with AoPS. He was used to math being easy and zipping along. After a week into AoPS he said to me "I like homeschooling because without it, I wouldn't be able to get challenged in math." That is what AoPS did for him. It stopped being about racing through the math books and started to be about recognizing that it's okay to struggle through a problem and that you learn more when something is hard. He's been getting an amazing sense of satisfaction by having to work harder.

 

I also agree with not worrying about how long it takes him to get through the book. It's not unusual for us to have one day for practice problems, one day for exercises, and one day for Alcumus if he needs extra practice. I've broken up lessons even more. I've had him do Alcumus problems from sections he's passed easily - if I think he needs more review. He's far more willing to spend extra time on Alcumus than to move to Pre-Algebra. (Also, keep in mind that Intro to Algebra is Alegbra I and Algebra II combined. So even finishing the book in 2 years is considered on pace! It's fine to finish much more slowly. That's one of the perks of having an advanced kid. There's plenty of time for it.

[Luckymama]

PreAlgebra 2 is just halfway through the book. AoPS split the online course into two parts, I guess because the class would move too quickly for a first online math course.

[Mukmuk]

Yep, it's getting easier for my son and I as the days go by :001_smile:. He's done with chap 1. I just found out Alumnus takes a few days to activate, so he's doing the Pre-alg review/challenge problems (there are no review questions for chap 1 in Intro to Algebra). From what I see, it does take getting used to in terms of approach to the problems (yes, learning to struggle through is great!), and this is also another challenge for him. The videos are fun to watch too!

 

What's interesting is that my son is not the sort who likes repetition. But boy does he need it. With the wealth of backup in AOPS, and with every question having a slightly different take, he hasn't complained yet (we're still new, but crossing my fingers here).

 

Tks for the suggestions on other supplements. LoF didn't go down well with him although he read it like a book. Murderous Math has been awesome! He's been re-reading for years. It's always been pleasure reading though, and I leave him to it - very boy-humor!

[....]

I just found out Alumnus takes a few days to activate, so he's doing the Pre-alg review/challenge problems (there are no review questions for chap 1 in Intro to Algebra).

 

You're right! We had to fax in a permission slip for our daughter to use Alcumus. If your child is under 12 (I think it's 12), they can't use it without written permission. If you're still waiting...they never contacted us to let us know that the account was approved. We just tried to log on the next day. The username/password worked, so we were :hurray: . :D Maybe you could just try to log on and see if it works.

[Luckymama]

:iagree:

 

We faxed dd's permission slip early morning here on the east coast so AoPS had it before the start of business hours. Dd's username was active that afternoon.

[Mukmuk]

Yes!! :001_smile:

[Belacqua]

You'll know you're truly entrenched when you have to postpone dinner due to a fierce For The Win battle.

 

Love your name, by the way, Mukmuk. Finest mascot sidekick ever!

[Halcyon]

I didn't even know that. I guess because I just put my info in and had my son use it under my name.

 

:iagree: me too! Is there any way to stop Alcumus from throwing in really hard problems into the mix? I have already set him for Pre Algebra, but some ofmthe questions are from later chapters.

[wapiti]

:iagree: me too! Is there any way to stop Alcumus from throwing in really hard problems into the mix? I have already set him for Pre Algebra, but some ofmthe questions are from later chapters.

 

So it's set to the Prealgebra subject, but is it also set to "Follow the book"?

 

Somewhere there is also a setting for level of difficulty (my dd found it :tongue_smilie:).

[Halcyon]

So it's set to the Prealgebra subject, but is it also set to "Follow the book"?

 

Somewhere there is also a setting for level of difficulty (my dd found it :tongue_smilie:).

Ah, no. I dont think it is set to follow the book. We got a doozy on Thursday. I couldnt do it.....:glare:

[melmichigan]

I didn't even know that. I guess because I just put my info in and had my son use it under my name.

 

If you create an account for yourself you can choose to be left out of the statistics while you practice the material yourself. The statistics can be quite embarrassing. :svengo::blushing:

 

I'm pretty sure you can set the level of questins from the tool sign on your alcumus profile page. Then you just get more easier problems before you move forward. Eventually you still get to the level 20+ problems, and those can be rough.

Edited September 8, 2012 by melmichigan

[Mukmuk]

This is a terrific idea. I'm currently hamstrung by not doing anything in his account as the grades will show up. This will help. Thank you!