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Why do so many people redshirt their bright, normally-developing kids?


SKL
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Once the schools tell kids that something is wrong with them (whether it is true or not) it is terribly hard to heal that hurt.

 

I do agree with this. I've seen it happen. It's a hard place to be in, but the more we accept the "trend," the more the trend is going to progress. Pretty soon being born in January will be a disadvantage too, if this keeps up.

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What does redshirt mean?

 

Also known as "the gift of time." It generally refers to starting a child (usually boys) in kindergarten a year later than their birthday would make them eligible in ordinary circumstances. Most often redshirting happens with children who have summer or fall birthdays.

 

Some people redshirt because they do not feel their children have the academic and/or social maturity to start Kindergarten, which—like it or not—is more academic now than it was "back in the day." In many cases the redshirting truly is a gift if the children are not developmentally ready.

 

In other cases parents redshirt to give their children advantages in sports and in the classroom simply on the basis of an additional year. This tendency of some parents to seek "advantage" causes mixed feelings about a practice that can be highly beneficial for children who really need the time.

 

We have a summer boy. When he was an infant we had discussions about whether he would start K as a just turned 5 year old, or if we would "redshirt." As it turned out he was very much ready (and would have been bored silly had we delayed a year) but some some children it is a valid option. I hate to see the option stigmatized by people who abuse the practice.

 

I will say that at our highly performing school that relatively few children have been redshirted, and those who have been have had good cause. If anything there are a couple students with very late birthdays (past the new September cut-off) who would have been better off redshirting.

 

Like any policy that seeks to meet individual needs, redshirting can be a gift, or it can be an avenue for advantage and abuse.

 

Bill

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The KG I went to in 1970 taught reading and math, similar to the private KG my kids just graduated from (if not more rigorous). There was only one kid in my class who really couldn't handle the material (he repeated KG and was fine after that). So I don't really buy the idea that academic KG is really 1st grade.

 

I think your K experience was atypical. I went to K in 1976 and we did ABCs, learning to form letters and numbers, typical kindergarten things. I did teach myself to read that year, but most of the other kids weren't able to yet. Full on reading instruction didn't happen until 1st grade. My DH's experience was the same as mine, except he remembers having to memorize his address and phone number, too.

 

What DH and I experienced as Kindergarten is considered pre-school now. Everything's been pushed up a year, and it's not just in the early grades. In our school district, Algebra 1 used to be (usually) studied in 9th grade. The smart kids got pre-algebra in 8th. Now ALL students are expected to learn Algebra in 8th, ready or not. :tongue_smilie:

 

But I think the fact that the average age in KG is getting older, coupled with full-day vs part-time KG, is making it a more difficult social/emotional environment for younger kids. Honestly, I don't think it's fair to allow the class to be manipulated in this way for the benefit of overly ambitious parents. It's not fair to the families who, for financial or other reasons, need to put their normal kids in school at the normal time.

:iagree:

 

Either change the official cut-off dates or provide age-appropriate work for the stated normal age range.
Again, :iagree: I was pretty disillusioned after DD's K year. I didn't know it was possible to have a kid leave Kindergarten jaded with school. Sad. :(
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I think your K experience was atypical.

 

It may have been atypical for the time, but it shows that in general, kids are capable of learning academics at age 5. Just because many schools did not attempt to introduce it doesn't mean they were doing the kids any favors IMO.

 

It's true that many 5yos aren't ready to sit at a desk and read/write, but that particular structure is not necessary to academic learning. In fact, reading instruction used to be done by kids getting up (in small groups) and moving to another part of the class, using big word cards and pictures, reading together along with the teacher in a "big book," etc. I don't think we used workbooks at all in KG, though we did have math worksheets toward the end of the year. (By contrast, my kids used multiple workbooks every day in KG.)

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Just a comment about the gifted designation - when I was in the gifted program in high school, it was based solely on IQ. In my kids school it is based on teacher recommendation, standardized test scores (grade level), and samples of above-average work. No IQ testing involved at all. And the teacher recommendation part keeps out behavior problem kids - because they see gifted education as a privilege for the 'good' kids, not something to meet the needs of kids who learn in a different fashion.

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Just a comment about the gifted designation - when I was in the gifted program in high school, it was based solely on IQ. In my kids school it is based on teacher recommendation, standardized test scores (grade level), and samples of above-average work. No IQ testing involved at all. And the teacher recommendation part keeps out behavior problem kids - because they see gifted education as a privilege for the 'good' kids, not something to meet the needs of kids who learn in a different fashion.

 

Oh, that's just swell. How many of those "problem kids" are that way out of sheer boredom from not being challenged and would thrive if their "giftedness" were discovered and catered to??? Ugh!

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This is really a personal decision made based on the characteristics of an individual child. When you see "overly ambitious" parents, I see parents who are looking at what is best for their child at that time. Should parents send their socially immature, developmentally delayed, free spirited and wiggly, or otherwise not ready children into an environment that they know their children will struggle in and suffer because other parents want their children to have someone to be better than? I think it is presumptuous to assume that the parents did not have legitimate concerns about their child just because they did not share those concerns with you. The schools allow a range for each grade because they recognize this. We aren't talking about people enrolling 8yr olds because they want them to dominate the 5yr olds!

 

I kept my son back because he was not ready for the classroom environment, not because of academics.

 

:iagree: I think this is the case with most redshirt kids. Parents just want the best for their kids. If your child is ready to go to K at 5, that is great too. Options for parents are a good thing!

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I do think that some kids benefit from an extra year before kindergarten and some do better starting early. The idea that all kids are ready at the same time to start school at the same time isn't reasonable IMO.

 

The school has two parallel classes in the early years. One class has the younger children within the year, the other has the older children. The school thinks that six months or more of difference at that age is such a developmental gap that it's worth separating the two classes out. The difference fades over the years and the classes are mingled at age 12 when the children start senior school.

 

Laura

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I have decided to red-shirt my son this year. If I could I would simply homeschool him until middle-school, but that is not an option at this time. My son is advanced in some areas, but behind in others. However, I am not holding him back for academic reasons. My son turned 5 in early August, but still needs a daily nap. We tried pre-kindergarten last year as an introduction to school. He only went three days and those three days were miserable for the afternoon and evening at home. If my son doesn't have his nap he becomes very whiny, disrespectful, and even acts out towards his younger sister :glare:. I decided to give him an extra year to work out his need for extra sleep. We will work on academics at home, but in a casual way and mostly on a pre-kindergarten level.

 

I also live in Texas where Kindergarten is very rigorous and in our area most children already know how to read and write before entering. They also teach sight word reading in our area :001_huh: and I wanted to give him a phonics base :lol:

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So I intend to go back and read this again, because I find it fascinating, but I just wanted to note: in Germany we had a mid-summer cut-off. I believe it's the end of July now, but it may even have been June then. As a May birthday, I entered my final year of Kindergarten (what you'd call K here, though we have a three-year Kindergarten sequence) when I was 5, and first grade when I was 6.

 

It should be noted that my Kindergarten was an entirely different experience. If we did any writing it was stuff like drawing with paintbrushes. Mostly we played, be it independently or in guided activities.

 

Then, we started "real" school in 1st grade - and by the end of 2nd grade when I moved to the U.S., I was well advanced of what the kids there were doing in my California elementary school. It would appear that taking waiting to begin formal academics worked for most kids there.

 

That being said, even today kids are "redshirted" for first grade. I recall my youngest brother, now 21, was held back and didn't start 1st grade until he was 7. It wasn't really considered "redshirting," as much as he wasn't ready to begin. He wasn't "Schulreif."

 

All of which puts me in a bind. My older son is 4.5, and will start Kindergarten next year 2013-2014. He is so beyond ready academically that I see no reason not to put him into Kindergarten, but then I wonder if that's right. I mean, he would be with his age cohort....but he would be near the end of said cohort age-wise. Add to that the fact that he's sort of scrawny and on the lower end of normal for fine motor skills. Certainly, as far as motor skills (gross and fine) and wiggles, he would benefit from a KG that was truly KG, not 1st grade. The very fact that we have K-5, K-6, and K-8 schools speaks to the fact that K is the new 1st grade. I wish they would just accept that and renumber.

 

All that being said, part of me is beginning to wonder if we SHOULD redshirt him. Sigh. His two best buds are both 5-6 months older than he is, and he's always thought of himself as one of them. There are definitely times when I wonder if that's the best for him, though.

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I am okay with redshirting when there is a maturity or medical issue. Unfortunately, too many people redshirt their boys to give them an advantage in sports. In middle school, I was disgusted to see how many redshirted boys made the A team for basketball. That really blows for the boys who are in their age appropriate grade being relegated to the B or C squad.

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When I first heard of academic redshirting a few years ago, I indulged in some judgmental thoughts about the families that did it. I assumed that they wanted their kids to be more competitive compared to their peers, I think?

 

Of course, a few years later, I now have friends whose children are kindergarten/1st grade aged, and seeing up close how people navigate the massive urban school system where we live has been humbling and eye-opening.

 

Back when I was Judgy McJudgerson about redshirting, I had no idea that Kindergarten in this system is rife with homework, early academics, and test prep. I can totally see why people hold their kids back from that until they think they're developmentally ready.

 

In fact, to complete the circle of my hubris, finding out about how "academic" (eta to add here: I think many young kids are absolutely ready to learn to read, etc., but I think it's pretty common for kids, even the ones who are ready to do academic work, to not yet be ready for the whole bottoms-in-seats-for-hours classroom environment) early grades here are has been a strong component leading my family think we might end up homeschooling, something I had never even considered! Like I said, humbling. :tongue_smilie:

Edited by corduroy
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In my community, three things appear to be happening simultaneously:

 

1) Academic skills are being pushed down to lower and lower grades to a developmentally inappropriate age.

2) More parents are holding their kids back a grade.

3) More parents are talking about how their kids are working a "grade ahead" (although the child has been held back as far as age.)

 

DD has a May birthday. We sent her to private kindergarten that was only 1/2 day. She would not have been ready for a full-day kindergarten with academic seat work as a young five year old. She needed time at school (and at home) for imaginative play, art, story telling, etc. We had many people (even teachers) suggest that we not place her in first grade at 6 because she was not yet reading. We did place her in first grade and found that she had a number of classmates who were more than a full year older than she was. She was six years old and there were kids who were 7 1/2 in her class. The teachers and other parents would comment, "look at how mature Johnny is. He is a real leader. He does his work so much better than the other students. He is so much better behaved than Billy..." So, six year olds were being compared to 7/12 year olds. The six year olds were being labelled as "immature" and "behind" for first grade, because they weren't up to what their 7 1/2 year old counterparts were doing.

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First, it doesn't bother me that other people make choices with their children's best interests in mind. With that, though, comes a complaint... I wish there was more flexibility in schools in general, so that you didn't have to decide on a whole school career based on how a child is at barely five. I do think in some cases parents make decisions "just in case", knowing that schools can be very slow to make changes later. So sometimes I think redshirting is meant to be a safe choice, for children whose parents think they might wish they had more time at some point, and not necessarily those who need it at kindergarten. From the outside it might look unnecessary, but I think (hope) in most cases it's intentional and well-reasoned, given how the rest of their kid's school years might be expected to go.

 

Second... while I'm happy for other parents to make their own decisions about their own kids, I did find it irritating that as a parent of a summer-birthday boy myself I was expected to follow the crowd when he was kindergarten age. I know there's regional variation, but where we were at the time it was expected that all boys with summer birthdays would be held back, with no regard for their individual abilities and interests. We started DS on time (homeschooling, not PS) and got lots of comments about having "pushed him ahead", and warnings about how difficult it was going to be when we needed to hold him back later. He's in high school now, and we haven't had to hold him back yet. We really did put a lot of thought into our choice, but from the outside it may well have looked unnecessary.

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First, it doesn't bother me that other people make choices with their children's best interests in mind. With that, though, comes a complaint... I wish there was more flexibility in schools in general, so that you didn't have to decide on a whole school career based on how a child is at barely five. I do think in some cases parents make decisions "just in case", knowing that schools can be very slow to make changes later. So sometimes I think redshirting is meant to be a safe choice, for children whose parents think they might wish they had more time at some point, and not necessarily those who need it at kindergarten. From the outside it might look unnecessary, but I think (hope) in most cases it's intentional and well-reasoned, given how the rest of their kid's school years might be expected to go.

 

Second... while I'm happy for other parents to make their own decisions about their own kids, I did find it irritating that as a parent of a summer-birthday boy myself I was expected to follow the crowd when he was kindergarten age. I know there's regional variation, but where we were at the time it was expected that all boys with summer birthdays would be held back, with no regard for their individual abilities and interests. We started DS on time (homeschooling, not PS) and got lots of comments about having "pushed him ahead", and warnings about how difficult it was going to be when we needed to hold him back later. He's in high school now, and we haven't had to hold him back yet. We really did put a lot of thought into our choice, but from the outside it may well have looked unnecessary.

 

You articulated some of my feelings much better than I. I do feel that because I put my kids in school younger than almost everyone else, it will be a sensitive point if it comes up in conversation. And it will be an excuse for teachers to give my kids a hard time, should they have any issues.

 

The reason I'm not overly daunted by popular opinion is that I myself was an early entrant, and it was most definitely best for me. As for making a safe choice, it will be easier for me to hold them back later than it would be to get them grade-skipped. (Hopefully neither will be necessary.)

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We were told by our school district to redshirt our son.

He was reading at four, but very active. The school said he wasn't ready to sit and do worksheets by himself in K while they taught the other kids how to read.

I was shocked that they would expect...

1.) a 5-year-old boy to sit by himself and do worksheets. (We discussed this at length with the school to make sure we were not misunderstanding them. We weren't.)

2.) a child that was already reading to be held back a year and be happy academically.

We decided to homeschool instead.

That was six years ago and we have no regrets.

 

(More than 50% of boys in our district are redshirted, by last count.)

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We were told by our school district to redshirt our son.

He was reading at four, but very active. The school said he wasn't ready to sit and do worksheets by himself in K while they taught the other kids how to read.

I was shocked that they would expect...

1.) a 5-year-old boy to sit by himself and do worksheets. (We discussed this at length with the school to make sure we were not misunderstanding them. We weren't.)

2.) a child that was already reading to be held back a year and be happy academically.

We decided to homeschool instead.

That was six years ago and we have no regrets.

 

(More than 50% of boys in our district are redshirted, by last count.)

 

Wow. I would still be hyperventilating over that.

 

I could see asking him to sit out KG and start 1st next year, but KG at 6 when he was reading at 4?

 

This is the mindset that confounds me. As a parent I don't think I could go along with it, even if that did put me at odds with others.

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I did not redshirt my DD per se, but I reject her school request to skip her a grade. She is in 4 yo preK but developmentally,she is ahead. I did that more because her personality. She is the leader type girl unlike my DS. I want her with her own age peer and she can boss other kids around

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Kindergarten is about more than academics. Its about social skills.

 

Socially that child is not ready to move forward no matter what his academic skills are.

 

You're right, KG is partly about social skills. But I don't think sitting alone and doing worksheets (while the class is engaged in other learning) is a social skill. In fact, the more I think about it, I wouldn't expect a 1st grader to be expected to do that, even.

 

I don't recall the mom mentioning that the child was socially behind, only that he was active. Some very socially adept kids are active.

 

It seems to me that school was basically telling the parents they wanted no responsibility for meeting that child's needs. :glare:

Edited by SKL
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Gifted testing is scored by AGE not grade (as are all intelligence tests) so students are being compared to their same aged peers, not same grade peers. It might be that older students are referred more often for gifted testing because they seem more advanced. If all students in a grade are tested then there is no advantage of being older; in fact an older student would have to get a higher raw score than a younger student to have the same IQ score.

 

Not necessarily. In our district (and I believe it is a statewide thing), IQ is one of the things that *cannot* be used to determine whether a child is gifted. Here they use a combination of CogAT (which can be scored by age or grade), achievement test scores (scored by grade), and teacher recommendations.

 

This process tends to favor students who are mature, have good executive functioning, and are fast processors--things that are also going to be stronger in older children.

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We were told by our school district to redshirt our son.

He was reading at four, but very active. The school said he wasn't ready to sit and do worksheets by himself in K while they taught the other kids how to read.

I was shocked that they would expect...

1.) a 5-year-old boy to sit by himself and do worksheets. (We discussed this at length with the school to make sure we were not misunderstanding them. We weren't.)

2.) a child that was already reading to be held back a year and be happy academically.

We decided to homeschool instead.

That was six years ago and we have no regrets.

 

(More than 50% of boys in our district are redshirted, by last count.)

 

 

I have been wondering how many other school districts have "Young 5s" grade. If I had sent my 4 year old to K, I am sure he would have been placed in the Young 5 classroom. Those kids then enter K the following year. We opted to keep our child, with a bday 9 days before the cut off, home. He would be "gifted" with either age group. It is more a personality and a learning style than age. I did wonder what would happen when my almost 6 year old started K given he had been developing reading skills for two years at the that point. About 1/2 his class was reading before entering K.

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You're right, KG is partly about social skills. But I don't think sitting alone and doing worksheets (while the class is engaged in other learning) is a social skill. In fact, the more I think about it, I wouldn't expect a 1st grader to be expected to do that, even.

 

I don't recall the mom mentioning that the child was socially behind, only that he was active. Some very socially adept kids are active.

 

It seems to me that school was basically telling the parents they wanted no responsibility for meeting that child's needs. :glare:

 

:iagree: and some more :iagree:

 

Also, some very socially inept people graduate from high school. :tongue_smilie:

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I'll chime in...We held all our kids back one year when we moved back to the USA - they are all summer birthday boys. One is gifted (really, not just because I held him back), one is bright/normal but not gifted, and one is normal/slow

 

 

1. I didn't want them as the 15 year old passenger driving with a 16 year old classmate whom I do not trust. I'd much rather they be the 16 year old driver. If I do not trust my 16 year old driving, then I guess I have big problems.

 

2. I didn't want them to be the smallest child, physically, in the class. And, no, not because of sports. My kids have a 0 percent chance of being on any sports team (5% height and weight). They are bi-racial and we have a minority religion so I am worried about bullying.

 

3. I wanted them slightly older when they leave home for good (this one is totally selfish - I like them and am not in a hurry for them to leave - at least I admit it)

 

4. We live in Texas - it is the norm here (so yeah "everyone else is doing it..." it sounds lame - but it is a consideration to have your child not be considered normal - again, we are already not normal in so many ways)

 

5. The normal/slow one struggled in his prior school so I figured with the move it would be a good time for him to reset his feelings/insecurities around school.

 

6. My father graduated very early and had mentioned to me that while academically he did very well (debatable, IMHO - he can't write worth squat) he always struggled socially. I asked if he struggled only in elementary, but he mentioned that the difficulties continued into college. That said, some people just struggle - maybe he was one of those.

 

7. I wanted to give them a longer time to think of themselves as "American" before they go off on their own (one thinks he is Chinese, one thinks he is Arab - neither me nor my husband is either of those - kinda weird)

 

Results - no regrets with either the normal/slow or the normal/bright one. I really don't know with the gifted one yet.

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I see the epidemic of redshirting as no more than another indicator that the school system is a sub-optimal education method for most children. It's hardly fair to criticize parents for making choices that minimize the problems caused by the way schools work.

Edited by Hotdrink
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Am I right in assuming all.the children start k on the same day? This seems to be how most countries do it. For some reason in New Zealand kids can start school any time between the day after their 5th birthday and the turning six. The year runs early Feb to late Dec and children born after the school's cut off date (31 March at my sons school) are automatically put in a year zero class and held over. This usually keeps age differences to less than a year.

It is an unusual system though and if it was going to catch on it probably would have happened by now:tongue_smilie:. That was no help at all was it? I could ask for my march birthday son to be held back if I had reason though I guess.

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As a former first grade teacher, I wonder if K is now 1 because of the earlier cut off dates and all the redshirting. More kids are "ready" for first grade work because more kids "are" first grade age. Seriously, if May kids are being held back then 2/3rds of the K class is the age my first graders were (the cut off date was December 31st.)

 

:iagree: My mother is a former K and 2nd grade teacher, and she says that first they moved back the cut-offs (from Dec/Jan) because many boys weren't ready. But then a lot of girls (and advanced) were ready, and bored because they were older. And they started moving down the 1st grade curriculum because more and more kids were 1st grade age.

 

Except... now they only have 1/2 a day to get in the same curriculum they used to have a whole school day for.... :glare: (and I guess we now see why the clamor for full-day K...)

 

ETA: I wonder if the academization of K also may have something to do with its now being required to be paid for by the state. Used to be many places didn't have public K, now virtually all states have public K (even if it's not technically "required" by mandatory age cutoffs). I think NH is the last hold-out.

Edited by matroyshka
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One of my close friends held all three of her sons back a year. They are very bright academically. Her logic was that they would need extra maturity to accomplish her academic goals for them -- total summation. To finish this story two are college age. Both have full rides to very competitive universities in STEM programs. The third actually has higher scores then brothers.

 

People red shirt because it works.

 

In the UK it is pretty hard to do. The system is rigid unless you are using private. One interesting fact is that apparently many professional atheletes here share the same few birth months--oldest in class/ most opportunities. I think that carries over to academics.

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In the UK it is pretty hard to do. The system is rigid unless you are using private. One interesting fact is that apparently many professional atheletes here share the same few birth months--oldest in class/ most opportunities. I think that carries over to academics.

 

This is the Wikipedia explanation.

 

Children start primary school aged between 4½ and 5½ depending on when the child's birthday falls. Scottish school policy places all those born between March of a given year and February of the following year in the same year group. Children born between March and August start school in August at between 5½ and 5 years old, and those born between September and February start school in the previous August at between age 4 years 11 months and 4½ years old. The Scottish system is the most flexible in the UK, however, as parents of children born between September and December can request a deferral for 1 year (not automatic, requires to be approved), whilst children born between January and February can opt to hold their child back a year and let them start school the following August.

 

Calvin started school in Hong Kong, which seems to follow the Scottish model. He has a December birthday and we had the choice of his starting at 4 3/4 or 5 3/4.

 

Laura

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For my daughter we decided to put her in younger grade due to both physical and mental maturity. She is incredibly smart. She is also tiny, no signs of puberty at 11 and a preemie that if born full term would have a September birthday. Thinking of high school I'd rather her be a little older.

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I redshirted my 11 year old (mid summer birthday) with our school's blessing. He's always been homeschooled but recieved speech and occupational therapy through the school system.

He does have developmental delays and issues with motor and social skills but he also had a IQ score of 126 at age 4. I also redshirted his younger brother (another mid summer birthday) because the boy is a born jock with no interest in academics at all. He does, however, throw the most perfect spiral on a football that you've ever seen. (The other Dad's are quite vocal in their jealousy.)

 

I have a late summer birthday and was always the youngest person in my class. I knot that my emotional immaturity was the reason for a lot of my bad decisions. I don't know how my parents let me go off to college a week after my 18th birthday.

There was no question of my academic abilities but its a small wonder that I didn't get into far more trouble than I did in high school and college.

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We have friends who intend to redshirt their older son, who was born two months after our older son. Had he been born at full-term, he would have been a summer birthday, so already on the border. As it stands, he was a micropreemie, and though he is incredibly bright and adorably charming, (and could no doubt handle it academically) I can see how this could do nothing but benefit him. That being said, I am selfishly sad because I had hoped the two boys would be in the same grade.

 

ETA: I should add that of course our friend's son is bright, but not "normally developing" in the sense that he is a preemie and small for his age. So in effect, the decision to keep him out of school for a year doesn't adress the original question of the thread.

Edited by eloquacious
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Here in Texas, it's sports. period.

 

Every boy with a summer/late spring birthday is red-shirted.

 

Our August 3, 2007 son went to K this year.

All of my friends kept their sons back, including a boy who turned 5 in MARCH! I was amazed.

 

I also feel a little outnumbered.

 

But there was no way I could hold our son back. He's SO ready for school.

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In most states K is not required. IMO if a parent showed up with a 6 year old for K they should automatically be placed in 1st grade. It seems like theory fair way to do things.

 

Around here birth certificates are needed for sports like little league to make sure people aren't putting their older kids with the younger to get an advantage. I do t understand ow that's even allowed in school.

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I can't speak for others, but I did red-shirt my daughter after a failed, miserable year in Kindergarten. I pulled her out of the school system and homeschooled Kinder/1st over again the year she should have been in first grade. She returned to first grade and had a successful year, despite having a weak teacher. For my daughter, it was all a matter of maturity. She was doing very well academically in PS K, but she needed the extra year to mature (she has a summer birthday). If I could do it again, I would, except that I would hold her back in the beginning, instead of pulling her out after the first year. I'm almost certain that I'll do the same for my youngest DD, if we don't homeschool her. I think this is one of those instances where the parents have to do what is best for their child, despite what the norm is. It's nothing to make a big deal over.

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This is really a personal decision made based on the characteristics of an individual child. When you see "overly ambitious" parents, I see parents who are looking at what is best for their child at that time. Should parents send their socially immature, developmentally delayed, free spirited and wiggly, or otherwise not ready children into an environment that they know their children will struggle in and suffer because other parents want their children to have someone to be better than? I think it is presumptuous to assume that the parents did not have legitimate concerns about their child just because they did not share those concerns with you. The schools allow a range for each grade because they recognize this. We aren't talking about people enrolling 8yr olds because they want them to dominate the 5yr olds!

 

As for gifted testing, my DS was tested for gifted and he was absolutely compared to age mates, not by grade in school. It actually made it harder for him, IMO, because he was expected to know things he had not been taught yet. (they included things like math concepts and spelling on the test). As I said in the previous post, I kept my son back because he was not ready for the classroom environment, not because of academics. But, I didn't tutor him and prep him to be ahead in his time off. His K teacher still called me all the time complaining about his wiggling and his handwriting and about how he didn't want to play her games. Even now, in 5th grade, he still fits in better with kids about a grade or 2 below him. He's not neurotypical but it's not obvious to anyone except his family and his psychiatrist. We sent our youngest late birthday child to school on time even though she's the smallest by far because she does fine in classroom environments and gets along easily with other kids. I'm already sort of regretting it, however, because she was still napping before she started school. Now, she comes home every day a cranky beast, goes to bed earlier, and we have no more pleasant time at home with her. I think if I had held her back a year, then she would have quit needing a nap and we all would have had a better year. It has nothing to do with sports. It has nothing to do with wanting to be better than anyone.

 

:iagree: with the bolded.

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We redshirted my eldest with a September birthday because of pressure from her preschool teachers and family members (dh also has a Sept b-day and he had to repeat a grade in elementary school -- he was a late bloomer -- so both he and MIL were lobbying for redshirting). They suggested she wasn't emotionally ready. I strongly disagreed at the time, but unfortunately wasn't as sure of myself then as I am now, so I gave in to the pressure. It was a mistake. However, now that we are homeschooling, it doesn't matter what grade she is in, I let her move at her own pace.

 

She also tested as gifted, but the results were definitely compared to age-mates, not grade-level-mates.

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Ha, that just gives me more support that children should be delayed in starting school. From the article:

 

"Parents want to provide the best environment for their child, but delaying school is rarely the right approach. The first six years of life are a time of tremendous growth and change in the developing brain. Synapses, the connections between brain cells, are undergoing major reorganization. Indeed, a 4-year-old’s brain uses more energy than it ever will again. Brain development cannot be put on pause, so the critical question is how to provide the best possible context to support it.

For most children, that context is the classroom. Disadvantaged children have the most to lose from delayed access to school."

 

 

What is the best environment for a 4 year old? Is it weekly trips to the library, monthly trips to the zoo, grocery shopping and talking about food with mom, time in the sandbox, exploring with playdough, enriching read alouds with dad? Or do you force them into institutional learning? Which setting will allow for more new experiences and thoughts?

 

Also, the article that was linked from Germany discusses sending 6 year old children to school. That is night and day different than the choice I had in sending my 4 year old.

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In most states K is not required. IMO if a parent showed up with a 6 year old for K they should automatically be placed in 1st grade. It seems like theory fair way to do things.

 

Around here birth certificates are needed for sports like little league to make sure people aren't putting their older kids with the younger to get an advantage. I do t understand ow that's even allowed in school.

 

You can't compare sports to academics. Parents have to have to option to do what they think is best for their child. It's not about fairness, because if a child is ready the parents have the option to send the child to K. If not, example, if the child is a late-blooming August boy, parents should have them option to give the child more time before starting their academic career. When if comes to kids, there shouldn't be a one sized fits all mentality. That would not be fair.

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Around here birth certificates are needed for sports like little league to make sure people aren't putting their older kids with the younger to get an advantage. I do t understand ow that's even allowed in school.

:iagree:

 

Sports participation should be based on age, not grade. Because it is most definitely not fair to make a 12 yo compete for a position against a 13.5 yo on a middle school team. The 12yo is likely to just give up that sport. What's worse, IMO, is that most of the redshirted athletes were redshirted because of sports, not maturity or academics. It is an unfair advantage.

 

I have a Canadian friend who said that their school sports teams are based on age, not grade. I don't know if that's for all of Canada, or just certain schools.

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Sports participation should be based on age, not grade. Because it is most definitely not fair to make a 12 yo compete for a position against a 13.5 yo on a middle school team. The 12yo is likely to just give up that sport. What's worse, IMO, is that most of the redshirted athletes were redshirted because of sports, not maturity or academics. It is an unfair advantage.

 

:iagree:Unfortunately, that is not the reality where we live.

 

Our community sports used to be based on age, but then the parents complained because many of their kids were no longer able to play with their classmates. Our rec leagues then changed the rules and formed the leagues based on grade in school, not age. My boys then ended up on teams with boys 15 months older than them. Fifteen months is a huge difference.

 

The boy who won the state tournament in my boys' sport this past year was 19 years old. That extra year+ makes a huge difference even at the high school level.

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What is the best environment for a 4 year old? Is it weekly trips to the library, monthly trips to the zoo, grocery shopping and talking about food with mom, time in the sandbox, exploring with playdough, enriching read alouds with dad? Or do you force them into institutional learning? Which setting will allow for more new experiences and thoughts?

 

For those of us who work full time, the choice is between K and pre-K or other institutional setting. (That said, a child in daycare / school still makes trips to the library, grocery, zoo, reads with parents, plays, etc.)

 

Of course all schools / pre-Ks are different, but the one my kids attended actually encouraged more creativity in KG than pre-K. I also think they apply their mind creatively more in 1st than they did in KG. They are encouraged to come up with their own ideas to write about and given more responsibility for making things happen. They also benefit from being among the youngest in the "institution," in that they have lots of older role models to look up to.

 

My dd5 mentioned that she was glad to be done with KG because every day, time was wasted watching the spectacle of another child screaming and being violent toward classmates. Something I'm glad they are unlikely to encounter, at least on a daily basis, in 1st.

 

I think it's great if you can give your child an enriching, family-centered environment for the year she's old enough for KG. But there is still the question of what the following year is going to be like for a child with such a rich background. (Assuming homeschooling or grade skipping is not in the picture.) It seems to me that few KGs are really challenging for an older child with a rich background and no learning or maturity problems. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Maybe older kids find some way to make it worth their while. I guess if the trend is so popular, it must be benefiting some children/families.

 

I actually think it would be nice if families could elect to skip KG all together, and just go into 1st if they're ready at 6. The law used to allow that in my state, but they have changed that.

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The problem with all this is that even among children of identical age, there will be size and readiness issues.

 

As a mother of twins (and another one) - I heartily agree!! Until kids are treated like individuals rather than by grade level or age, school will be difficult for some.

 

I really wish PS had an a la carte system. KG for handwriting, 4th for math, 3rd for PE, etc. etc. My kids are not at the same level across the board. The youngest twin could really use KG handwriting about 4 more years...

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Where I live, there are no "school sports" in elementary school. So the park district runs them and they are placed on teams based on their age on Aug. 1st. And you have to have a birth certificate because your dc can "play up" a year, but there is NO playing "down."

 

In terms of the linked article, I had multiple issues with it. (Not the least of which would be the over-arching theme that a classroom is superior to the home for learning or education. I tend to disagree with that "school" of thought! ;) )

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At a school around here, one of my friend's kids got promoted to the gifted class in English after scoring in the 85th percentile on the end-of-grade test.

 

Is this method common now? I was in the gifted program in the 80s and we had to score over a certain cutoff on an IQ test, given out of class time during the summer.

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I had to look up what "red-shirting" was so take what I say with that in mind. :)

 

I started my son, who has an August 20th birthday a year later than I had to. My reasoning was mostly selfish. I had homeschooled his older siblings for 8 years but we eventually starting using the public schools. I wanted to keep him home as long as I could.

 

I have several friends that teach and they encourage it due to developmental things they have observed in their own classrooms. One DF is a middle school teacher and she said that she's sees a difference in the younger group, especially boys when they reach middle school. They are often a little more immature than the average middle school boy and tend to be a little later as far as puberty goes. Unfortunately, that often leads to teasing, ect.

 

So far, I have not regretted our decision. He's now in second grade and has done very well. When he was home with me that extra year I didn't do "school" with him. We just went about our days. He's not top or bottom of the class - just average and happy.

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"In terms of the linked article, I had multiple issues with it. (Not the least of which would be the over-arching theme that a classroom is superior to the home for learning or education. I tend to disagree with that "school" of thought! ;) ) "

 

I didn't get that feeling - I don't believe that a classroom is superior for the home for learning or education. I would see a kid who was not introduced to learning in a home environment at "school age" as redshirted as well. (For me, the debate between a b&M school, private or relgious school, homeschooling, unschooling etc. is a totally different choice).

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