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Can't figure out how to help ds...


brownie
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Not sure what I'm looking for but I'll give this a try. DS11 has an Asp diagnosis...very mild but it's there...mostly in the social arena. He's very bright...Explore tests qualified for Davidson's. I'll possibly apply for him this fall.

 

However, he has always been painfully slow to get EVERYTHING done. I mean I remember the Montessori school teacher complaining how little he'd done in his phonics book at 5 years old despite the fact that he was light years ahead in reading. In 1st grade the teacher could never teach him to remember to put his name on the paper. He's slow in the pool during swim practice (much faster by comparison to other kids during meets vs. practice). At meetings for other activities he never seems to know what he's supposed to be doing bc he's in lala land I guess? Putting something together with a screwdriver he will lounge on one side and use one hand! I remind him that God gave him 2 hands for a reason! His school work is slow. However, it's not perfectionism because he makes all kinds of ridiculous errors in math and in copying sentences.

 

We thought maybe ADHD or dysgraphia or something similar. This summer we've gone the rounds, determined to figure it out once and for all. We've now had him evaluated for ADHD - focus is normal. We had him evaluated by an OT - everything is pretty normal to WAY above normal when it comes to visual perception. We had him evaluated by a vision therapist - everything pretty normal to WAY above normal in how he tracks as he's reading. So I'm left with....lazy? I know I will get ridiculed for saying that but I have to wonder now if it's true. Dreamy? Wouldn't that show up as ADHD? And while he's moderately creative, I don't think he's actually day dreaming in an imaginative way. His mind might just be wandering to other things. This is killing me! I've been homeschooling him for 3 years and this year he's doing cyber because I just can't be the bad guy anymore. He needs to wake up to reality (if he can).

 

The thing is, now that there seems to be nothing wrong with him causing this problem, I'm more frustrated than ever because all my sympathy for him is out the window. He seems to have no excuse for his behavior and I'm afraid for his future if I don't drag and pull and carry him through school while I wait for him to snap out of it.

 

Ideas? Am I missing something?

 

Brownie

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This is out of my realm of experience, so grab a grain of salt before reading more. :-)

 

He reminds me a description in a book about sensory integration problems. "Too Loud, too tight, too fast, too bright." Sometines SID can just make people...tired like that, from what I understand. Or maybe it was "The Out of Sync Child." Both good books I recommend.

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My 10 yro and 7 yro work very slowly and they also silently watch things (and have this deer in the headlights look about them). My 10 yro went to public school K and the teacher even called me into a parent-teacher conference to complain about it. :glare: When my kids first started taking martial arts, I had to warn the instructor about this *ahem* phenomenon. My 7 yro would do several moves in her form, pause for an excruciating amount of time and then continue with another set of moves. The instructor wanted to jump in every time my daughter paused, but she found out that if she waited, my daughter would just finish the form on her own.

 

My husband and I have several theories about this... I think gifted kids can be very, very meticulous. I also think they can be very heavy on observation. The "deer in the headlights" look can be them thinking about a problem on several different levels or even second-guessing themselves. I also wonder if some kids don't see 3,000 different details when they observe something. My kids seem to remember things with details so much better than I can.

 

For middle school, I'm really trying to focus on programs that are more difficult, but have less problems. For example, my 10 yro is using Art of Problem Solving pre-algebra. She may do 4 problems a day...and that's enough. I would also stay away from any kind of busywork. We don't do workbooks anymore. I know you said that you guys are doing a cyber school, so there is only so much you can do about curriculum.

 

Like the Just-a-mom said, "Too loud, too fast, too bright."

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I will have to reflect on the sensory possibility. I don't know what his sensory issues are any more that I could help with bc they don't seem to interfere with his life anymore. Maybe I should go back to therapeutic brushing which we did years ago. He tends to scratch his arms and head alot during school. Maybe I need to try harder to minimize distractions during school as well, visually and audibly. That is hard with 2 youngers upstairs. His "office" is now in a corner of the basement with a divider behind him to give him his own space for school. I've given him ear plugs but he won't use them.

 

Working memory and processing speed could be contributing factors with advanced schoolwork but I don't think it's what is making him look slower/dreamier than the general population out in public. His came out average in testing years ago, though there was a HUGE difference in the subtests. At the time that was attributed to possible visual motor issues which the vision therapist now says he has compensated for or outgrown. He actually has an amazing visual memory but used to have trouble remembering something when he had to move his eyes down the page. The current thought from OT and VT is that he has now developed a bad habit of not checking his work because of former problems focusing back and forth but that SEEMS not to be an issue anymore.

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I've compacted and accelerated. That is not the issue with speed.

 

He has been evaluated by MANY doctors and specialists. Not by a neuropsych yet but the one we want isn't taking patients. At meetings it's more like "OK everyone set up the chairs!" and he just stands there while everyone else does it. The problem isn't listening to a lecture. I think he's actually ok with that, or it's not noticeable yet because he doesn't go to alot of lectures. The problem is with actual physical motion.

 

I'll look up CAPD. I thought he might have hearing issues years ago. He failed the ped's hearing test repeatedly but when I took him to the hospital for eval his hearing was perfectly fine. They said he was too young to pursue auditory processing issues at the time, but I have to say I suspect that he would do fine on that test just like everything else. He seems to be able to step it up for a "Test" situation, which points to him having control over whatever the issue is. The vision therapist felt the same way...said ds was a Ferrari in the garage that you never take for a drive...he has the skills and he's not using them.

 

Brownie

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Do the professionals who have examined him have experience with gifted kids? In my experience, this could be a highly gifted kid with ADHD. Particularly if the kid is towards/in the tail of the curve. He could be compensating very well (comparitively) with intelligence. IMO until you have the neuropsych eval., hopefully again with someone with experience with gifted population, it is difficult to rule in or out ADHD. Good luck.

Also, have you read James Webb's book on Dual Diagnosis and Misdiagnosis of the gifted? Might be helpful.

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To which spectrum are you referring to "tail end"? ADHD?

 

The "ADHD" test we had done was a "continuous performance" test. Plus there were some questionnaires for me to fill out. This was conducted by our Asp-expert developmental pediatrician(I believe Asp and gifted himself)...highly sought after with a 2 year waiting list. He has spent a number of hours with ds over the years and anticipated a focusing issue would turn up on this test. He was recommending a low dose of ADHD meds and bio feedback in this eventuality. However, ds was precisely average on this test. The test requires the child to sit for an extended period (don't know exactly what it was) and do something along the lines of hitting the space bar every time the digit 2 appears on the screen. The objective is to bore the child into losing focus. While it is not a comprehensive ADHD assessment, at least it is objective, unlike most assessments, so I felt comfortable with the results. After that he told us to get the OT eval for dysgraphia (which as I mentioned showed nothing) who then told us to get the vision therapy eval (which as I mentioned showed nothing). ARGH! I am a person who likes to take action and do something about it but I don't know what to do!

 

I could go to Hopkins for an eval, but honestly I am not up for blowing $3000 to learn that I have a smart, lazy kid. That would be even more frustrating, so I am not willing to go to that extent yet. If our change in school environment does not improve things, I will pursue a local neuropsych with some expertise in the areas we anticipate being an issue (Asp, ADHD, giftedness) but right now the one I found isn't even taking a waiting list.

 

Brownie

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ADHD includes more than just ability to focus. It can include slow processing speeds and working memory issues, as well. Did the testing include this? And did the tester have experience with gifted kids? It is my understanding that a child can have a single normal score compared to other children of the same age, but if a particular score is low compared to that child's other scores, it is considered a deficit because it will slow down the other processes.

 

I recommend reading some books about executive functions. Late, Lost and Unprepared and Smart but Scattered are two that have been helpful to me.

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OP, I haven't read the whole thread so maybe you have already answered this. But... have you ever had your son checked to make sure he isn't having mini seizures? (Sorry, I don't mean to freak you out.) But I've seen that happen with Aspie kids before, especially the ones who "appear" to be spacing out. I know two kids who this was happening to.

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Have you considered a diet issue? I was lethargic and very spacey on gluten. I could focus and I could compete in physical activities but it was as if I had to make a choice- to be physically active or mentally active. I didn't have the energy to reach through the fog and do both at the same time.

 

 

Or anemia....

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I have a similar child, DS9. IQ above the charts, but working memory is poor due to CAPD. He also has vision problems (we are arranging for yet another bout of VT). He is dreamy! Every psych/professional who's seen him does not think ADHD. This is what seems to have worked (although not perfectly as we're still trying) or could be the potential cause:

 

1. Going gluten and casein free. Our family has a documented history of allergies, and ds has leaky gut. Going on the diet has definitely improved his sleep quality and quantity, which has improved his attention.

 

2. Capd- this is not hearing at all, but rather, auditory processing. The weak auditory processing happens randomly, but a proper test at the audiologist can reveal its existence. Ds can hear less than 50% of what is said in a best case, quiet classroom scenario. It's hard to tell which is the chicken or the egg, but his working memory is affected (if I remember correctly, the letter-number sequencing subtest in thw WISC is heavily auditory processing dependent).

 

3. Appropriate placement. Anything too far away, either up or down from his ability, is an attention killer. This is hard! But homeschooling has allowed for experimentation and some success some of the time. I may just have to accept this or increase our rate of experimentation...

 

4. This school year, I plan to rely heavily on tools :). Ds never wanted a list, but he's finally amenable to getting one where he has input and can manage. We've always used a timer (although I forget sometimes after a good spell)- looking at the clock face gives him a visual reminder.

 

----

This my 1st post! Been a silent reader on and off for years :o.

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I totally understand your being frustrated, but it really isn't a case of being lazy and he still needs your sympathy and most of all some specific help. I speak from experience here -- my oldest ds was a deer in the headlights who drove his Montessori teachers bonkers!! Was clearly gifted but a total space cadet. But he is all grown up, living on his own and thriving in college.

 

Aspies, no matter where they are on the spectrum, are just wired differently than everyone else, and one of the common problems (I am no expert, just speaking from my experience and the anecdotes of other moms) is "executive function". That is the planning part of the brain and the part of the brain that works in those group settings you describe -- where everyone else is getting up and doing what has been directed while your child sits there, seemingly with his mind in outer space. Your ds may need very specific instructions, more so that other kids because he cannot picture how he is supposed to go about doing the instructions that were given. "Let's move the chairs to the back of the room" is a simple instruction, but he may not know it means "stand up, pick up your chair, walk it to the back of the room then be ready for our next activity". It is NOT laziness, is NOT being stupid or willful -- it is an underdeveloped part of the brain that makes is difficult to do what is simple and natural to us. It could be auditory processing, but in either case it requires some gentle and specific instruction.

 

My ds was slow and prone to stupid mistakes, like copying things incorrectly. I never had him copy math problems out of a book, for instance. Math was always workbook based or I wrote the problems out for him. He wrote on the computer because he is a faster typist and makes fewer mistakes when his output can keep up with is brain. He also learned to proof read and, more importantly, to ask others to proof read. He knows he is slow to process new information, but has been a model employee because he takes all the hand books and instruction manuals home and studies them in his own way and and slowly as he needs to in order to fully understand.

 

There is no single magic cure to change how we are wired. Diet or medication can be tools to help while working on developing executive function skills. Maturity is a huge help, too, and your son will have to figure out what tools work best for him as he transitions into adult life. A caveat here -- he may seem to regress during the puberty years. Take it slow and steady, don't stress over him needing to prepare for high school or college as he will suddenly emerge from the puberty funk more advanced and capable than ever.

 

In the meantime, take a deep breath and find some more patience in dealing with your ds. Give him clear instructions -- check lists for the day, for the week. Instructions on what steps he needs to take to get even the seemingly most simple task done. Did anyone ever teach him HOW to use a screw driver? Maybe learning to use a screw driver in a group setting is a bad idea -- being a group of people and learning a new skill may overwhelm him. He can't help it, it is just the way he is. And make a huge point, for yourself and for him, of celebrating the things he is good at.

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I guess I see Asp as an umbrella label for a bunch of issues that tend to occur together and cause bigger issues. I want to know what the specific issue is that we can't seem to pinpoint related to speed and precision.

 

Reflecting on a number of these points, DS has a peanut allergy, but the autism specialist we see did gluten and dairy testing (can't remember but not traditional allergy testing) and ds had the lowest numbers he'd ever seen in a person with a diagnosis (zero). So gluten isn't high on my list of priorities to consider, but it should be on the list nonetheless.

 

The number sequencing subtest was indeed 50%ile lower than the digit span test in ds' working memory test 5 years ago. This may be a clue if the one subtest relied more on auditory processing, however he still did score 37%ile. His bigger issue was 25%ile on coding (processing speed) again 50% lower than the other processing speed subtest. At the time, the psych felt this pointed a visual motor issue, which now the VT says he has outgrown if it was previously an issue. The problem with that assessment is that we continue to see issues with this type of work across the board today.

 

Brownie

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