So...what are your thoughts on the Bull Nye kerfuffle?

[SJ.]

I think evolution involves changes FROM one kind of animal to another kind of animal, not changes WITHIN a kind. (not yelling, just emphasizing :001_smile:)

 

I also think separation of church and state was intended to mean that the gov't couldn't force a state religion.

 

Nope, not quite right. Here is a very simple place to start: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_25

 

A very important example would be antibiotic resistant bacteria:

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/relevance/IA1antibiotics.shtml

[Snickerdoodle]

Isn't tonight the blue moon?

[UnsinkableKristen]

Nope, not quite right. Here is a very simple place to start: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_25

 

A very important example would be antibiotic resistant bacteria:

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/relevance/IA1antibiotics.shtml

 

This was very interesting - thanks!

[Ibbygirl]

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[Avila]

Just in case you want to try out the kilt

 

http://fashion.wonderhowto.com/how-to/wear-full-formal-kilt-outfit-with-accessories-270120/

[nmoira]

Isn't tonight the blue moon?

 

Tomorrow, I think.

 

ETA: Tomorrow, 6:58 PDT. So we're currently within 12 hours of the blue moon.

Edited August 31, 2012 by nmoira

[Juniper]

I guess I will go back to the OP. I am not YE and I think evolution is the best SCIENTIFIC THEORY we have going and will have for many generations.

 

I do not want Creationism taught as science, on equal footing with Evolution. Let science be science...let theology be theology. Where the two shall meet I choose to allow mystery.

 

I do believe God had a hand, design, purpose in all of it. I also believe we are nowhere near having the answers.

 

When it comes to SCIENCE I want students taught good scientific theory and procedures, so that we can continue to search out the answers. I may not like all the answers, but I want scientist well educated in searching out scientific truth.

 

i am not sure Evolution is the end all, but I sure it is going to be the foundation upon which future discoveries are made.

[Sue G in PA]

Your statements about evolution are simply wrong. And honestly, your position is why allowing creationism into a science curriculum is a serious mistake, and could have a detrimental effect on science education. You are confusing religious beliefs with science. While both can coexist, they should not be mixed in a classroom.

 

I'm ok with being wrong...if I am. And I don't think we have to worry about Creationism being introduced into our public schools. And unfortunately this has far more wide-reaching implications than just science education. Personally, I can't wrap my brain around how creation and evolution can co-exist. But, that's ok. I don't have to. And I certainly don't think less of anyone who does (or think them less of a Christian if they are). For me...God did what He did in 6 literal days. Now, I will admit to also believing that since those days of creation living things have modified and adapted to changing conditions (or not adapted and died off as the case may be). But I have yet to see evidence of any living thing changing from one being to another (like a frog becoming a monkey or a cat becoming a dog) without man's interference. My religious beliefs (worldview) effect how I see the world just as your beliefs (worldview) effect how you view the world. So I understand where you are coming from..and can respect it.

[nmoira]

But I have yet to see evidence of any living thing changing from one being to another (like a frog becoming a monkey or a cat becoming a dog) without man's interference.

Of course you haven't because this isn't how evolution works. If you're interested, I can recommend some (brief) texts which will give you at least a working knowledge of evolutionary theory. Even with human interference, cats have not been turned into dogs (and a good thing, I say... cat lover here).

[Annie Laurie]

I love Bill Nye even more. Yay Bill Nye!

 

:iagree:

[BlsdMama]

Your statements about evolution are simply wrong. And honestly, your position is why allowing creationism into a science curriculum is a serious mistake, and could have a detrimental effect on science education. You are confusing religious beliefs with science. While both can coexist, they should not be mixed in a classroom.

 

She actually made no scientific claims about evolution. She stated her feelings about evolution and how a belief in such could impact the world in a moral sense. Can one be wrong when stating their feelings rather than facts? Hmm...

 

Let's "pretend" that evolution is a religion for a moment. It has steadfast followers who choose to believe pre-suppositions that, in fact, are not necessarily supported or not supported by the religion's claims. Moreover it takes a leap of faith to believe in evolution and one does worship a being - the human being as the most important created thing in the universe. Let's pretend that we have explained all of creation through our over-simplified religious theories. BTW, evolution lacks enough truth that it has never made it past being a THEORY, which is why it ought to be taught in conjunction with all the other theories.

 

Now I expect the religious zealouts (the evolutionists) to support it wholeheartedly as one would when their religion is attacked and deemed ridiculous and foolish.

 

One could even go so far as to say the zealots ought not be allowed to teach their children evolution as fact since it is, in actuality, just a theory.

 

I believe the most compelling evidence for creationism is that we are far too complex of beings to have evolved randomly. Over billions of years, not only did ONE human evolve but more than one in so that they could reproduce. Miraculously, at the same time, their food source also evolved so that they could stay alive long enough to continue their evolution. Absolutely mind-boggling! Beyond that, but it happened in exactly the same random pattern for so many creatures. If I remember correctly, bees are said to have evolved thousands of years before plants and their food

sources and many other creatures as well.

 

Let me just say that I believe it takes less a leap of faith to believe in my God and His creation in six days than it does to buy into evolution.

 

*HOWEVER* I believe in your right to teach it to your children. I believe that you sincerely believe it and while I believe you are wrong and what you are teaching is eternally detrimental to your children, I believe you have the God given right to free will and to teach it to your children.

 

Strangely, the respect isn't usually working both ways on this argument.

 

And, on a side note, I would have been okay with the transformation of cats into dogs. ;)

Edited August 31, 2012 by BlsdMama

[Sue G in PA]

Okay, so, evolution. Big Bang (all of a sudden we have something from nothing), now there are living cells which evolve into multi-celled organisms, into higher-level multi-celled organisms, into apes (yes leaving out lots of steps along the way), and eventually into humans as we know them today. Is this wrong? (serious question...I've already been called un-intellectual and worse here tonight so ignorant will not bother me in the least, lol). I love to learn...so yes point me in the direction of some brief texts to explain it. :D

[dangermom]

Look, I don't want to get into a fight, but the Big Bang theory has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. Evolutionary theory has nothing to say about how life started in the first place; that's called abiogenesis.

 

And 'theory' doesn't mean 'hypothesis.' It means that something is well established, but science isn't really into laws any more. A theory is as good as it gets. Gravity is a theory too. So saying 'it's just a theory' doesn't mean what people seem to think it means.

Edited August 31, 2012 by dangermom

[Sue G in PA]

She actually made no scientific claims about evolution. She stated her feelings about evolution and how a belief in such could impact the world in a moral sense. Can one be wrong when stating their feelings rather than facts? Hmm...

 

Let's "pretend" that evolution is a religion for a moment. It has steadfast followers who choose to believe pre-suppositions that, in fact, are not necessarily supported or not supported by the religion's claims. Moreover it takes a leap of faith to believe in evolution and one does worship a being - the human being as the most important created thing in the universe. Let's pretend that we have explained all of creation through our over-simplified religious theories. BTW, evolution lacks enough truth that it has never made it past being a THEORY, which is why it ought to be taught in conjunction with all the other theories.

 

Now I expect the religious zealouts (the evolutionists) to support it wholeheartedly as one would when their religion is attacked and deemed ridiculous and foolish.

 

One could even go so far as to say the zealots ought not be allowed to teach their children evolution as fact since it is, in actuality, just a theory.

 

I believe the most compelling evidence for creationism is that we are far too complex of beings to have evolved randomly. Over billions of years, not only did ONE human evolve but more than one in so that they could reproduce. Miraculously, at the same time, their food source also evolved so that they could stay alive long enough to continue their evolution. Absolutely mind-boggling! Beyond that, but it happened in exactly the same random pattern for so many creatures. If I remember correctly, bees are said to have evolved thousands of years before plants and their food

sources and many other creatures as well.

 

Let me just say that I believe it takes less a leap of faith to believe in my God and His creation in six days than it does to buy into evolution.

 

*HOWEVER* I believe in your right to teach it to your children. I believe that you sincerely believe it and while I believe you are wrong and what you are teaching is eternally detrimental to your children, I believe you have the God given right to free will and to teach it to your children.

 

Strangely, the respect isn't usually working both ways on this argument.

 

And, on a side note, I would have been okay with the transformation of cats into dogs. ;)

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:. (except for cats into dogs...i like cats) Thank you for stating this so much more eloquently than my non-intellectual would have allowed me. ;)

[Sue G in PA]

Look, I don't want to get into a fight, but the Big Bang theory has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. Evolutionary theory has nothing to say about how life started in the first place; that's called abiogenesis.

.

 

Hmmm...ok. (and no fight...just asking questions). So, evolution doesn't say how life started? So how DID life start (from an evolutionists perspective)? Doesn't evolution say that we evolved from apes (to put it quite simplistically)?

[Juniper]

Look, I don't want to get into a fight, but the Big Bang theory has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. Evolutionary theory has nothing to say about how life started in the first place; that's called abiogenesis.

 

And 'theory' doesn't mean 'hypothesis.' It means that something is pretty well established, but science isn't really into laws any more. Gravity is a theory too. So saying 'it's just a theory' doesn't mean what people seem to think it means.

 

 

:iagree:I live in a divided household. Dh would fall just right of center into YE and I fall just left into the crazy world Evolution with a purpose.

 

I was discussing this very thing with him yesterday. "Scientific Theory" and "theory" are not interchangable. They are not equal.

[cindergretta]

I guess I will go back to the OP. I am not YE and I think evolution is the best SCIENTIFIC THEORY we have going and will have for many generations.

 

I do not want Creationism taught as science, on equal footing with Evolution. Let science be science...let theology be theology. Where the two shall meet I choose to allow mystery.

 

I do believe God had a hand, design, purpose in all of it. I also believe we are nowhere near having the answers.

 

When it comes to SCIENCE I want students taught good scientific theory and procedures, so that we can continue to search out the answers. I may not like all the answers, but I want scientist well educated in searching out scientific truth.

 

i am not sure Evolution is the end all, but I sure it is going to be the foundation upon which future discoveries are made.

 

:iagree:

 

Look, I don't want to get into a fight, but the Big Bang theory has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. Evolutionary theory has nothing to say about how life started in the first place; that's called abiogenesis.

 

And 'theory' doesn't mean 'hypothesis.' It means that something is well established, but science isn't really into laws any more. A theory is as good as it gets. Gravity is a theory too. So saying 'it's just a theory' doesn't mean what people seem to think it means.

 

Yes.

[Caitilin]

Hmmm...ok. (and no fight...just asking questions). So, evolution doesn't say how life started? So how DID life start (from an evolutionists perspective)? Doesn't evolution say that we evolved from apes (to put it quite simplistically)?

 

No. Evolution says we share a common ancestor with apes. This is a different matter.

[dangermom]

Hmmm...ok. (and no fight...just asking questions). So, evolution doesn't say how life started?

 

Nope.

 

So how DID life start (from an evolutionists perspective)?

 

That is unknown.

 

Doesn't evolution say that we evolved from apes (to put it quite simplistically)?

 

It says that we evolved from a common ancestor (which as far as I know also counts as an ape but I am not an expert). Chimpanzees, gorillas, etc. are not supposed to be our ancestors, but there was a common ancestor that is no longer around.

 

 

Now, I myself am a devout Christian and I have no problem with this. I figure God is a pretty good biologist and chemist. :001_smile: I also believe in a literal Adam and Eve. I may not know exactly how all those things go together, but I don't have to either.

[Forget-Me-Not]

I am not YE and I think evolution is the best SCIENTIFIC THEORY we have going and will have for many generations.

 

I do not want Creationism taught as science, on equal footing with Evolution. Let science be science...let theology be theology. Where the two shall meet I choose to allow mystery.

 

I do believe God had a hand, design, purpose in all of it. I also believe we are nowhere near having the answers.

 

:iagree: Pretty much sums it up for me. My personal belief is that there were processes used by God that we aren't yet able to comprehend, but evolution is the best description we have until God chooses to explain Himself further.

[Tammi K]

I feel so much sympathy for children brought up this way becuase large blocks of the most interesting, intellectually stimulating and higher paying jobs will simply be out of bounds for them forever. I think it's criminal child abuse.

 

Wow, up until just a few moments ago I had so much hope for my gifted 11 year old. I thought he was gifted in the area of science. But, apparently I am very wrong.

You see, he can intelligently discuss Bose-Einstein condensate, give you a detailed analysis of all 5 states of matter including an fairly detailed explanation of super-fluids, and he can share insights into physics formulas that are occasionally beyond me. I've been amazed at his intellect.

 

Poor kid, he's a baptized believer (his choice) and a creationist to boot so I guess he should give up his shot at any future high-paying career in the sciences.

 

**** me...I've been abusing the poor kid and I didn't even know it. Should I tell him he really isn't science material until he renounces his faith? Or is it just too late for the poor kid?

[Sue G in PA]

:iagree: Pretty much sums it up for me. My personal belief is that there were processes used by God that we aren't yet able to comprehend, but evolution is the best description we have until God chooses to explain Himself further.

 

Can you explain this further? God explained Himself pretty well in Genesis...when He spoke everything into existence. Do you mean processes SINCE then? Just curious...not mocking or anything...for real. :001_smile:

[Mrs Mungo]

Hmmm...ok. (and no fight...just asking questions). So, evolution doesn't say how life started? So how DID life start (from an evolutionists perspective)? Doesn't evolution say that we evolved from apes (to put it quite simplistically)?

 

No. It says that both humans and apes possibly descended from a common ancestor.

 

I am an Old Earth Creationist. My views are very similar to Tiffany's. But, I don't see the need to deal out insults on any front. If I am going to complain about the YECs who say Tiffany and I are not real Christians, then I also must take issue with the atheists who would like to imply that Sue is anti-intellectual or not smart. She may be ignorant in this arena, but my experience is that *so are most people who believe in evolution.* It has been my experience that *most* people are fairly ignorant of the mechanisms of evolution. Most people are taking their belief in evolution OR YEC completely on faith.

[Mrs Mungo]

Can you explain this further? God explained Himself pretty well in Genesis...when He spoke everything into existence. Do you mean processes SINCE then? Just curious...not mocking or anything...for real. :001_smile:

 

Not all Christians take the creation story as told in Genesis to be a literal re-telling. Many of us believe it to be symbolic.

[Jennifer3141]

Science doesn't teach people what to think. Science teaches people how to think. That's an important distinction that gets lost in the "debate.

 

When you start teaching people not to think, you make that populace extremely vulnerable to manipulation. And it's easy to rape a manipulated populace by taking away more and more of their rights.

 

Not to mention that removing real science from our consciousness makes us incredibly vulnerable strategically. What will we do when the weapons scientists all move to other countries? If we stagnate but terrorist nations expand their weapons programs, where are we going to be in 10 years? 30? 100?

 

The same thing happened to stem cell research in a relatively similar manner in the 2000s.

 

I really don't care what pockets of homeschoolers teach their children. I have the right not to associate with whomever I don't want to and my DH and I have chosen not to associate with people who toss science out the window, just like YEC people can keep their children from us because they fear our skepticism will rub off on their kids. I could not care less if you paid me to do so.

 

There always have been and always will be conservative religious people who have tried to stop scientific progress. Just ask Galileo. Times like that hav been the darkest in our history. And we've stood on the other side of history and been horrified at what we did.

[Joshin]

Just to expand, a hypothesis is just an idea, perhaps gleaned from anecdotal evidence, that has yet to be proven.

 

A scientific theory is a scientific fact (usually) that doesn't have all the details worked out yet. This includes cell theory, gravity theory, and heliocentric theory (planets revolve around the sun).

 

A scientific law only pertains to predicting how things in nature behave. Theories do not become laws, because theories are explaining how things work. Laws: how things behave (a dropped ball falls toward the earth). Theories: Why things work that way (what creates the gravity that makes a ball drop? What can speed it up or slow it down? Do some bodies have more or less gravity?) Thus we have gravitational theory and we have laws of gravity, two related but separate things.

 

Generally, laws and theories are both referred to as scientific fact within the scientific community.

[Juniper]

Not all Christians take the creation story as told in Genesis to be a literal re-telling. Many of us believe it to be symbolic.

 

Or poetic. I have a jewish friend who say's it is both. Something along the lines of time flowing differently at different edges of the universe. I cannot remember all the details, but it is interesting. ;)

[Sue G in PA]

I would never say you aren't a real Christian if you don't believe in a Young Earth/literal 6 day creation. Never. To do that would be to put myself on the same level as God. *shudder*. I hope I didn't give that impression in this thread?

[justasque]

Moreover it takes a leap of faith to believe in evolution and one does worship a being - the human being as the most important created thing in the universe.

 

I'm not a scientist, but I don't think this is quite accurate - an evolutionist would not think that the human being is the most important created thing; I don't think they would construct things that way at all.

[Jennifer3141]

Science doesn't teach people what to think. Science teaches people how to think. That's an important distinction that gets lost in the "debate.

 

When you start teaching people not to think, you make that populace extremely vulnerable to manipulation. And it's easy to rape a manipulated populace by taking away more and more of their rights.

 

Not to mention that removing real science from our consciousness makes us incredibly vulnerable strategically. What will we do when the weapons scientists all move to other countries? If we stagnate but terrorist nations expand their weapons programs, where are we going to be in 10 years? 30? 100?

 

The same thing happened to stem cell research in a relatively similar manner in the 2000s.

 

I really don't care what pockets of homeschoolers teach their children. I have the right not to associate with whomever I don't want to and my DH and I have chosen not to associate with people who toss science out the window, just like YEC people can keep their children from us because they fear our skepticism will rub off on their kids. I could not care less if you paid me to do so.

 

There always have been and always will be conservative religious people who have tried to stop scientific progress. Just ask Galileo. Times like that hav been the darkest in our history. And we've stood on the other side of history and been horrified at what we did.

 

Decimating the public school system in our country by throwing out real science is doing real damage to those children and the better future they will be unable to build.

[Juniper]

Science doesn't teach people what to think. Science teaches people how to think. That's an important distinction that gets lost in the "debate.

 

When you start teaching people not to think, you make that populace extremely vulnerable to manipulation. And it's easy to rape a manipulated populace by taking away more and more of their rights.

 

Not to mention that removing real science from our consciousness makes us incredibly vulnerable strategically. What will we do when the weapons scientists all move to other countries? If we stagnate but terrorist nations expand their weapons programs, where are we going to be in 10 years? 30? 100?

 

The same thing happened to stem cell research in a relatively similar manner in the 2000s.

 

I really don't care what pockets of homeschoolers teach their children. I have the right not to associate with whomever I don't want to and my DH and I have chosen not to associate with people who toss science out the window, just like YEC people can keep their children from us because they fear our skepticism will rub off on their kids. I could not care less if you paid me to do so.

 

There always have been and always will be conservative religious people who have tried to stop scientific progress. Just ask Galileo. Times like that hav been the darkest in our history. And we've stood on the other side of history and been horrified at what we did.

 

Where was this Jennifer earlier?!!!! I particularly love the bolded!!!

[MrsBanjoClown]

nm...

Edited August 31, 2012 by jpope

[Mrs Mungo]

Science doesn't teach people what to think. Science teaches people how to think. That's an important distinction that gets lost in the "debate.

 

It has not been my experience that our educational system strives from this. In fact, as I stated, I have met *many, many* evolution-believers who believe in evolution *only* because their science classes told them to. They know about as much as the mechanisms as Sue does.

 

I would never say you aren't a real Christian if you don't believe in a Young Earth/literal 6 day creation. Never. To do that would be to put myself on the same level as God. *shudder*. I hope I didn't give that impression in this thread?

 

Not at all, Sue, speaking from past experience in these threads.

[Sue G in PA]

Science doesn't teach people what to think. Science teaches people how to think. That's an important distinction that gets lost in the "debate.

 

When you start teaching people not to think, you make that populace extremely vulnerable to manipulation. And it's easy to rape a manipulated populace by taking away more and more of their rights.

 

 

So YECs do not think? Please. BUT, I will say that I agree with the 2nd paragraph. And not to turn this thread political....it IS what is happening in our government (teaching people not to think, systematically taking away their rights...). Christianity doesn't teach people NOT to think. Sigh. I think I need to take my non-thinking self to bed.

[Jennifer3141]

It has not been my experience that our educational system strives from this. In fact, as I stated, I have met *many, many* evolution-believers who believe in evolution *only* because their science classes told them to. They know about as much as the mechanisms as Sue does.

eads.

 

And we are churning out millions of children in our country who don't know basic facts about the founding of our country. That's neither here nor there. Because science is frequently taught badly in our schools is not a reason to eschew it anymore than we should give up on history or mathematics, another subject the US is lagging behind in.

[dangermom]

It has not been my experience that our educational system strives from this. In fact, as I stated, I have met *many, many* evolution-believers who believe in evolution *only* because their science classes told them to. They know about as much as the mechanisms as Sue does.

 

Sadly, :iagree: Science should be all about experiment and thinking and finding things out, not emotion and politics and tribalism, but since we're all human beings, much of the time we skip the science and go right to the tribalism.

[dangermom]

Because science is frequently taught badly in our schools is not a reason to eschew it anymore than we should give up on history or mathematics, another subject the US is lagging behind in.

 

:confused: Where did Mrs. Mungo say we should give up teaching science?

[cindergretta]

Christianity doesn't teach people NOT to think.

 

Christianity itself doesn't teach people to NOT think, but there are certainly many sects/denoms/groups who absolutely want their members/followers to NOT think. <sigh> And those groups seem to be the ones who get all the press, all the attention, and by whom the rest of us are painted/judged.

 

:grouphug:

[swellmomma]

I know everyone has spent the last 19 pages waiting on pins and needles to see what I had to say.

 

Here is my thoughts. SHUT UP! I am trying to sleep and this thread just will not die, and my curiousity has the best of me. So knock it off.

 

As well we had a deal remember...no idiotic comments so that I don't have to dig up some will power to not get banned by calling you an idiot.

 

So here it is, NO ONE CARES. Seriously, WHO CARES? If you want to teach creationism, teach it. If you want to teach evolution, teach it. If you want to dance a tango with a chimp while proving that a chimp can tango than get a freaking rose and dance. Just stop trying to prove how you are right and everyone else is wrong.

 

The evolutionists are not suddenly going to decide they believe in intelligent design thanks to someone on this thread. The creationists are not going to suddenly decide they no longer believe in God thanks to someone on this thread.

 

So go have teA or tea, or vodka, or cupcakes or lay on the sidewalk in Scotland looking up kilts. Just go the heck to bed so that I can do so to.

 

Good night!

[Lang Syne Boardie]

:/ Swellmomma, people of opposing views are calming down and talking now. I thought that was a good thing, and largely why we're here.

[Juniper]

I know everyone has spent the last 19 pages waiting on pins and needles to see what I had to say.

 

Here is my thoughts. SHUT UP! I am trying to sleep and this thread just will not die, and my curiousity has the best of me. So knock it off.

 

As well we had a deal remember...no idiotic comments so that I don't have to dig up some will power to not get banned by calling you an idiot.

 

So here it is, NO ONE CARES. Seriously, WHO CARES? If you want to teach creationism, teach it. If you want to teach evolution, teach it. If you want to dance a tango with a chimp while proving that a chimp can tango than get a freaking rose and dance. Just stop trying to prove how you are right and everyone else is wrong.

 

The evolutionists are not suddenly going to decide they believe in intelligent design thanks to someone on this thread. The creationists are not going to suddenly decide they no longer believe in God thanks to someone on this thread.

 

So go have teA or tea, or vodka, or cupcakes or lay on the sidewalk in Scotland looking up kilts. Just go the heck to bed so that I can do so to.

 

Good night!

 

Yes, Ma'am!!! Will do!!! ;) :lol:

[Juniper]

:/ Swellmomma, people of opposing views are calming down and talking now. I thought that was a good thing, and largely why we're here.

Yes, but I am tired and two cups into Grandma's Port! Time for bed and I needed an excuse. :)

[Tammi K]

I know everyone has spent the last 19 pages waiting on pins and needles to see what I had to say.

 

Here is my thoughts. SHUT UP! I am trying to sleep and this thread just will not die, and my curiousity has the best of me. So knock it off.

 

As well we had a deal remember...no idiotic comments so that I don't have to dig up some will power to not get banned by calling you an idiot.

 

So here it is, NO ONE CARES. Seriously, WHO CARES? If you want to teach creationism, teach it. If you want to teach evolution, teach it. If you want to dance a tango with a chimp while proving that a chimp can tango than get a freaking rose and dance. Just stop trying to prove how you are right and everyone else is wrong.

 

The evolutionists are not suddenly going to decide they believe in intelligent design thanks to someone on this thread. The creationists are not going to suddenly decide they no longer believe in God thanks to someone on this thread.

 

So go have teA or tea, or vodka, or cupcakes or lay on the sidewalk in Scotland looking up kilts. Just go the heck to bed so that I can do so to.

 

Good night!

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Yes, but I am tired and two cups into Grandma's Port! Time for bed and I needed an excuse. :)

 

:lol: That's a lot of port, my friend! Curious about Grandma's recipe. LOL

 

I'm off, too. It's later than I thought.

[annandatje]

I am glad he had the courage to speak up about this issue and its detrimental effect on science education.

 

Detrimental effects on science education? Are you serious? So b/c we teach Creation somehow my children's science education is somehow negatively effected? B/c we teach that there is a God who created all things and is still personally involved in our everyday life my children are somehow not receiving a proper science education? I find that offensive. Be careful where you go with this. I think evolution is a load of you-know-what...but I would never go so far as to say it has a detrimental effect on science education. Bill Nye can believe and teach what he wants. When he starts making value judgements...sorry...that ends it for me. But...I think he has enough of a following that my opinion won't amount to a hill of beans.

 

What exactly do you mean by "Be careful where you go with this?" That I should not say that I agree with what Bill Nye has to say? Actually I thought my assertion was rather mild.

[Forget-Me-Not]

Can you explain this further? God explained Himself pretty well in Genesis...when He spoke everything into existence. Do you mean processes SINCE then? Just curious...not mocking or anything...for real. :001_smile:

 

No, I mean the actual creative processes themselves. Just for clarity's sake, I'll state that I stand in the 'theistic evolution' camp. :D I believe that God created the universe, absolutely. I believe in a literal Adam and Eve. However, I tend to think of the 'six days' as being more symbolic of 'creative periods' that involved creative processes far beyond anything we can fathom or comprehend at this point.

 

For example, Genesis 1:7 says

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And I believe that's true--but I believe that involved complex biochemical processes that are probably incomprehensible to our mortal minds. Did God create man? Yes, of course He did, He says He did in the Bible--He just didn't fill us in on how EXACTLY He accomplished that. I believe God is the Supreme Physicist, Biologist, Engineer, CREATOR of the universe. It's demonstrated in the patterns and harmonies we see all throughout science. I cannot look at those and believe that God didn't use those when He created the universe.

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts and opinions on the issue--and I don't mean to disparage anyone else who may have come to different conclusions. :001_smile:

Edited August 31, 2012 by LemonPie
adding in some capital 'H's :)

[Rosie_0801]

Or poetic. I have a jewish friend who say's it is both. Something along the lines of time flowing differently at different edges of the universe. I cannot remember all the details, but it is interesting. ;)

 

If you think that's interesting, pour yourself another glass of port and get into quantum physics...

 

Rosie

[Aelwydd]

Agreed.

 

But you could still argue that a God capable of creating an already aged earth, could also create it full of anything He pleased - bones, algae, etc. I don't really know why He would, but I don't know much anyway :)

 

This is one of those circular questions, like, "Can God create a rock so big He can't lift it?"

 

Any discussion about what God can and cannot do is sort of beside the point. The question is what did He actually do.

 

And what He did, over and over, in the Bible, was to lay out His plan, set it in motion, and then wait until the fullness of time for it be accomplished.

 

Nothing was born overnight, and events were prophesied many times many, many years before they came to fruition.

 

Let me reiterate. Nothing BIG in the Bible ever happened quickly. Not the creation of the nation of Israel. Not the Law. Not the Prophets. Not Israel's maturation and the creation of the Temple. Not the birth of the Messiah, the birth of the Church, and the giving of the New Covenant.

 

We are still waiting on the fulfillment of Christ's "soon" return some 2,000 years later.

 

Do you get what I'm saying? Eve was told through the seed of woman, the Messiah would come. Did it happen overnight?

 

Of course not! Many things had to happen, and many hard lessons learned. The birth, growth, decline, and the spiritual death of Israel, the physical nation, had to occur before Heavenly Jerusalem could be built.

 

Right there, you have a form of evolution. You have the shadow, the type, and then you have the later fully accomplished reality, and they are entirely two different animals. This isn't my own lil' interpretation, BTW, it's what 90% of Christiandom has been taught and believed for most of its history.

 

So, could God have created a fully matured and "old" Earth? I'm sure a God capable of setting up an entirely complex and diverse evolutionary cosmos would find such a simplified, straightforward act extremely easy to accomplish. And I think that's what draws most YEC to it; it's very simple and way less prone to all kinds of questioning about God's motives, or God's plan for humanity.

 

Yes, as the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth, it's definitely possible for God to have created everything all ready-made, and pre-packaged, even with accessory dinosaur bones included, but such a view ignores the difference in reality between what is in the Mind of God, a multidimensional, omnipresent place, and what is currently our reality, dependent as we are in the entrails of time and entropy.

 

I mean, just look at our own short lives! We aren't born fully-matured adults. We are born infants, and by the time we reach adulthood, just every single cell in our bodies has been replaced. Which means, we are literally a different person, a different animal than when we were infants, or children, or even as teenagers!

 

I actually think it's rather presumptuous of mankind to believe its timescale to be on the same level of God when it comes to realization of all the events that He has willed into being. And because of that, I'm constrained to believe in evolution, because it follows the same logic of pattern of early beginning, development, and eventual culmination that is so clearly described throughout the Bible's pages.

 

As St. Paul once said, does not nature itself teach us about spiritual rules? The natural world and the spiritual world are entwined in each of us. If it took some 4,000 years for the birth of a Savior proclaimed at the Fall of Mankind, I seriously doubt that the God of the Bible is the type to rush Creation from beginning to end, and do it all in a mere six 24-hour days.

 

It just doesn't seem like Him.

 

 

 

P.S. I probably have wasted a good 30 minutes typing the above, as I'm sure the thread will be deleted. So, I'll just have my fun now and say that "creation science" is the same kind of oxymoron that "Atheist Seminary" is. Science is the study of evidence gathered and observed through our 5 senses: empirical evidence.

 

Creationism is predicated on a religious, faith-based approach that is antithetical to empirical evidence. By its very nature it spurns examination by mortal, limited intellect and senses.

 

Therefore, requiring science teachers to devote equal time to "creationism" is like requiring a Sunday School teacher to devote equal time to atheism. Ok? Call it what it is, "creationism," "theistic subjectivism," whatever, but it's not science.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Aelwydd

[Forget-Me-Not]

This is one of those circular questions, like, "Can God create a rock so big He can't lift it?"

 

Any discussion about what God can and cannot do is sort of beside the point. The question is what did He actually do.

 

And what He did, over and over, in the Bible, was to lay out His plan, set it in motion, and then wait until the fullness of time for it be accomplished.

 

Nothing was born overnight, and events were prophesied many times many, many years before they came to fruition.

 

Let me reiterate. Nothing BIG in the Bible ever happened quickly. Not the creation of the nation of Israel. Not the Law. Not the Prophets. Not Israel's maturation and the creation of the Temple. Not the birth of the Messiah, the birth of the Church, and the giving of the New Covenant.

 

We are still waiting on the fulfillment of Christ's "soon" return some 2,000 years later.

 

Do you get what I'm saying? Eve was told through the seed of woman, the Messiah would come. Did it happen overnight?

 

Of course not! Many things had to happen, and many hard lessons learned. The birth, growth, decline, and the spiritual death of Israel, the physical nation, had to occur before Heavenly Jerusalem could be built.

 

Right there, you have a form of evolution. You have the shadow, the type, and then you have the later fully accomplished reality, and they are entirely two different animals. This isn't my own lil' interpretation, BTW, it's what 90% of Christiandom has been taught and believed for most of its history.

 

So, could God have created a fully matured and "old" Earth? I'm sure a God capable of setting up an entirely complex and diverse evolutionary cosmos would find such a simplified, straightforward act extremely easy to accomplish. And I think that's what draws most YEC to it; it's very simple and way less prone to all kinds of questioning about God's motives, or God's plan for humanity.

 

Yes, as the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth, it's definitely possible for God to have created everything all ready-made, and pre-packaged, even with accessory dinosaur bones included, but such a view ignores the difference in reality between what is in the Mind of God, a multidimensional, omnipresent place, and what is currently our reality, dependent as we are in the entrails of time and entropy.

 

I mean, just look at our own short lives! We aren't born fully-matured adults. We are born infants, and by the time we reach adulthood, just every single cell in our bodies has been replaced. Which means, we are literally a different person, a different animal than when we were infants, or children, or even as teenagers!

 

I actually think it's rather presumptuous of mankind to believe its timescale to be on the same level of God when it comes to realization of all the events that He has willed into being. And because of that, I'm constrained to believe in evolution, because it follows the same logic of pattern of early beginning, development, and eventual culmination that is so clearly described throughout the Bible's pages.

 

As St. Paul once said, does not nature itself teach us about spiritual rules? The natural world and the spiritual world are entwined in each of us. If it took some 4,000 years for the birth of a Savior proclaimed at the Fall of Mankind, I seriously doubt that the God of the Bible is the type to rush Creation from beginning to end, and do it all in a mere six 24-hour days.

 

It just doesn't seem like Him.

 

 

FANTASTIC post! :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Ibbygirl]

FANTASTIC post! :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: Really great post. Lots to ponder in there.