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thowell
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I have made a couple other posts trying to figure out which math program to add in for dd9 and haven't received many ideas. Which is surprising! So i thought I would try once more and be a little more specific about what and why I need something.

 

Dd9 has used CLE since the beginning and has no issues with it. She loves it and flies through it. However, I have started noticing that while she can make a perfect score on all test and lessons, I am not sure she really gets the math behind the problems. To give you an example, yesterday on the way to town, she asked me what 24+14 was. I asked her how many tens are there in 24, how many tens in 14? She was totally stumped! I have no doubt if this problem was written in front of her she could solve it but no matter how many times we have looked at place value she doesn't seem to really get it. Does that make sense? She loves math and school so I would have no problem adding in a second program. Which one? I need one that will teach more to the conceptual side, a good teacher's guide. Also where do I start her? She can do the work but doesn't comprehend it so do I start at the beginning or where she places on the test?

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Maybe you don't need a second program. Maybe it would be enough to have discussions like that...although I have to tell you that being able to pull up in your head "how many tens" is not that important, IMHO, and the inability to do so doesn't mean that you don't understand the math behind it.

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Well, I am pretty new to this, but we have had success so far with Singapore math, which puts a lot of emphasis on place value. However, if she is doing well with the program you are using, you could just add in some activities to reinforce place value. Perhaps making a place value chart on a poster board, divide into 100s, 10s, and 1s. Make some discs or index cards about twenty of each with 100, 10 and 1 written and then use these to calculate, instead of pencil or paper. Honestly, I was never very good at calculating mentally (although fine on paper), but since I started homeschooling my kids and thinking about how many tens are in a number, it's become so much easier for me and I am a grown-up.

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So how do you decide if your child really understands the math concepts or is just going through the motions? Is this something that she will naturally get as she gets older?

 

The conversation you had with her tells you that she isn't understanding something extremely fundamental. I pulled my son out of Saxon 7/6 and put him in MUS Beta because I finally figured out that he didn't really understand place value. He went through Beta-Zeta in 6 months and was able to fill in all of the conceptual gaps.

 

As for understanding it as she gets older, the problem is that while she's not understanding it, she is also not understanding why certain algorithms work--why we carry or borrow or whatever--and if she's not understanding why, she will have a hard time applying what she's learning now to more abstract concepts later on.

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So how do you decide if your child really understands the math concepts or is just going through the motions? Is this something that she will naturally get as she gets older?

 

I know C understands it if she can do the worksheet(s) without many issues. I dont expect perfection, but if she gets 5/10 problems wrong we re-do the concept. If she gets 7/10, we may go back and review but we move on. Does that make sense?

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So how do you decide if your child really understands the math concepts or is just going through the motions? Is this something that she will naturally get as she gets older?

 

I wasn't taught conceptually and I know how many tens are in numbers. ;) It comes up again with expanded form.

 

CLE does teach this over and over in Math 1. I just went through it with my 7yo again on adding 3 digit numbers in LU10 for Math 1 and it is in the title bars all through Math 1.

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It may be something that begins to make more sense to her as she gets older. I know some of those types of concepts didn't make much sense to me in the beginning (even though I could get the answers right), and I was a very strong math student.

 

If you want to supplement with a conceptual program, though, I would suggest the Math Mammoth blue series. You can buy books specifically for place value or any other concept that needs extra work and they're super cheap--like, $2 or $3.

http://www.mathmammoth.com/blue-series.php

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Does CLE teach the concept of 'how many tens' (place value)? I'll bet it does. If that is the case, you do not need another program or curriculum necessarily. You have no idea if something different will help the idea click for your dd. I run into these conceptual issues all the time with my Dd & math. I don't run out and buy something else or we would be switching curriculum every other week!

 

It seems like what your Dd needs is some more teaching on the subject and practice. I would encourage you to continue to quiz her informally, as you described. I do the same with my Dd and often its in the car. It helps me see where I need to go over concepts again.

 

I would find the lesson in CLE that teaches whatever concept she is having an issue with, go over it again, get out the manipulatives (as someone else mentioned) and do some problems with her. You can use some fun manipulatives, like goldfish, or chocolate chips. I've used them for reteaching Dd and then allowed her to eat them while she worked on more problems. It takes out some of the sting. Then I'd give her some problems to do on her own............and I'd do it over and over until it is clear that she understands it. That is what I'd do with my own Dd and she has ADD. Now, if there are serious learning disabilities, I might do differently.

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I'd first start with something like Dr. Wright's Kitchen Table Math. It will help you understand how the problems work conceptually and how different problems are related conceptually. It also gives examples and shows why problems work and what concepts need to be understood prior to undertanding a particular type of problem.

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I don't know if it's something you would be interested in but Dreambox Math (on the computer) does a great job with conceptual math including place value. It might be a fun way for her to get a really good dose of the conceptual side of things and perhaps it will come at it in a way that makes it stick better. I believe homeschool buyers still has it on special. http://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/math-games/

 

It's been really great here.

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Does CLE teach the concept of 'how many tens' (place value)? I'll bet it does. If that is the case, you do not need another program or curriculum necessarily. You have no idea if something different will help the idea click for your dd. I run into these conceptual issues all the time with my Dd & math. I don't run out and buy something else or we would be switching curriculum every other week!

 

It seems like what your Dd needs is some more teaching on the subject and practice. I would encourage you to continue to quiz her informally, as you described. I do the same with my Dd and often its in the car. It helps me see where I need to go over concepts again.

 

I would find the lesson in CLE that teaches whatever concept she is having an issue with, go over it again, get out the manipulatives (as someone else mentioned) and do some problems with her. You can use some fun manipulatives, like goldfish, or chocolate chips. I've used them for reteaching Dd and then allowed her to eat them while she worked on more problems. It takes out some of the sting. Then I'd give her some problems to do on her own............and I'd do it over and over until it is clear that she understands it. That is what I'd do with my own Dd and she has ADD. Now, if there are serious learning disabilities, I might do differently.

 

 

:iagree:

 

I am learning to stop mid-lesson and get hands on with the concepts.

 

Now that I am teaching a 1st grader with CLE, there is a lot of place value work in the 100 series. We missed this because of pulling out of ps in 2nd, and hopping into CLE 200 series.

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Some of us think differently. Some of us need to learn the algorithms and use them until they are second nature to us, and *then* we can understand that there are two 10s in 24 and one 10 in 14.

 

Just sayin'...:D

 

Good point.

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math is like language arts. It really does have many components.

 

Language arts has phonics, reading, handwriting, grammar, writing, vocabulary, spelling, literary analysis.

 

So does math believe it or not. It is not fair for math to be relegated to just one curriculum and think it will do it it all.

 

So math often needs to be tackled at different points of view with a varied amount of supplements and in some case curriculums. Some math curriculums are stronger in some areas than others.

 

I have learned this the hard way myself as I struggled with early math as as child as presented by our school. It wasn't until I had a French tutor who taught me the European way and I got it more. Now I am introduced to the Asian way and wow I am understanding it even better. College math blew me away with discrete math and statistics. I loved it. Then you add in C rods and Crewton.

 

Math is so dynamic and so rich. I am becoming in love with it. I often catch myself looking out at nature and looking at the mathematical patterns in a simple leaf or tree pattern. Watching my children go from ugh math to wow math is really neat with the extra supplements and such.

 

Whatever you add to your existing curriculum, will only add to the math concepts your child already knows rather than confuse them. My kids are making connections (similar to the language arts connections) with the varied curriculums we use and watch. In the educationalese world they call it "schema" I believe.

 

So yes I subject my kids to different math curriculums/supplements and I see the AHA faces in them. They say "I get it or this makes more sense now or this looks familiar." Sometimes it goes over their heads and we just move on but I know they will catch it another time through some other supplement or through time. Then they say "Oh I remember when we did this or saw that. Now I get it."

 

We have even started borrowing math videos from the library like Bill Nye's math videos. They love those and think they are funny and are able to see how what they are learning on paper/pencils be used in a video explaining life skills.

Edited by happycc
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If you want to supplement with a conceptual program, though, I would suggest the Math Mammoth blue series. You can buy books specifically for place value or any other concept that needs extra work and they're super cheap--like, $2 or $3.

http://www.mathmammoth.com/blue-series.php

:iagree:

 

You could also try the Crewton Ramone videos. I think the ones for that level are free.

 

Jackie

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Maybe you don't need a second program. Maybe it would be enough to have discussions like that...although I have to tell you that being able to pull up in your head "how many tens" is not that important, IMHO, and the inability to do so doesn't mean that you don't understand the math behind it.

 

For many kids just asking something that far out of context (her regular schoolwork) could be difficult. I'd just try to engage her in applying her learning just like you did more.

 

I've never used CLE math, but perhaps more oral math and games could help rather than switching programs or adding.

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I don't know if it's something you would be interested in but Dreambox Math (on the computer) does a great job with conceptual math including place value. It might be a fun way for her to get a really good dose of the conceptual side of things and perhaps it will come at it in a way that makes it stick better. I believe homeschool buyers still has it on special. http://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/math-games/

 

It's been really great here.

 

I second Dreambox! It is very conceptual.

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The woodcutter story starts on page 101.

 

Hunter, the link above demonstrates the kind of mathematical thinking that I feel she is lacking. I was looking over the addition part around page 96 where it teaches them to think of

15 + 16=

in terms of

20 + 11 = 31

 

This is the kind of learning that she has not grasped. If I give her 15 + 16 on paper as a vertical problem she can solve it all day long no problem. She does carrying in addition and subtracting but only knows how to solve the problem in the way she has been shown and not the WHY behind it or how to visualize it as above. She is an above average student that I think would really excel with this style of teaching while also sticking with CLE to give her the straight forward paper and pen approach. Clear as mud?

 

So in a case like the book you linked, would I just start her at the beginning and let her go through it at whatever speed is confortable while continuing with CLE?

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I agree that you probably don't need a new curriculum, just a supplement. Many have suggested Cuisenaire Rods, which I love. I also think she might benefit from a basic set of Base 10 Blocks. Math Mammoth is great for plugging in gaps in understanding.

 

Is there a book that can be used with the Cuisenaire rods to tell you what to do with them?

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My DD is older than yours (13) and we have tried countless different supplements to learn the conceptual side of math. Our situation is a bit different in that we now suspect DD may have dyscalculia and are going to have her tested. We use and love Rod and Staff but DD truely doesn't understand the logic behind math.

 

We looked at several on-line tutorials and are considering Math Whizz based on the kind feedback I received from hive members and trying the samples.The people at Math Whizz have given us a three week trial as they could not answer specific questions regarding my DD's situation.

 

Perhaps it would be a fit for your DD. Home School Buyer's co-op offers Math Whizz yearly subscriptions for $119.00.

 

Best Wishes!

Edited by Dina in Oklahoma
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Is there a book that can be used with the Cuisenaire rods to tell you what to do with them?

 

http://www.amazon.com/Using-Cuisenaire-Rods-Photo-Teachers/dp/0914040049/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=3J4E1L5UUHHB3&coliid=IR9IB1NF6B6GR (cheap if you buy used)

 

I have an old set of C-Rods (from when i was a kid) and it came with a booklet and activity cards to guide you, but I'm not sure if new sets still come with anything like this...?? Maybe someone else here can answer that.

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The woodcutter story starts on page 101.

 

Hunter, the link above demonstrates the kind of mathematical thinking that I feel she is lacking. I was looking over the addition part around page 96 where it teaches them to think of

15 + 16=

in terms of

20 + 11 = 31

 

This is the kind of learning that she has not grasped. If I give her 15 + 16 on paper as a vertical problem she can solve it all day long no problem. She does carrying in addition and subtracting but only knows how to solve the problem in the way she has been shown and not the WHY behind it or how to visualize it as above. She is an above average student that I think would really excel with this style of teaching while also sticking with CLE to give her the straight forward paper and pen approach. Clear as mud?

 

So in a case like the book you linked, would I just start her at the beginning and let her go through it at whatever speed is confortable while continuing with CLE?

 

I start all my tutoring students at first grade in everything now. If you like this, you might want to read Samuel Blumenfeld's How to Tutor. I'm trying this out as our main text intensively with a student who has done some advanced math with the help of tutors, but doesn't even know which of the 4 processes to use for a word problem.

 

When I have tried to just use all the Waldorf and hands on methods I have failed. When I have a seizure it's like my brain gets shook up and fragmented, and I have to start over all my thinking. I need a written game plan that is more visual and provides some type of student work or a picture, and things broken up into lessons. I'm hoping now to pencil in the exact pages of things like the Waldorf lessons into the pages of HTT. The HTT pages give me a framework to hopefully now add in the other things in an organized way. I have to SEE the plan after a seizure, to get back on track.

 

I totally get you sticking with CLE. My plan is to get students into Saxon 54 at some point, and use HTT before that, and then SUPPLEMENT as NEEDED.

 

Professor B is another good resource to pull from.

 

I've liked PB and African style Waldorf and Grube's method for awhile, but I needed something to pull it together. Fingers are crossed for HTT to be the glue. I'm also fascinated by the author's take on arithmetic vs mathematics and what to prioritize.

 

If it was me, I'd want to immediately plug away at the problem I found, so I'd probably do the woodcutter story right away and play with some "jewels" because that is fun, but then I'd start all the way back with Waldorf or whatever conceptual resource clicks with you as a TEACHER. Conceptual is HARD to teach for some us. We can only do what WE can do.

 

With all the resources I'm gradually starting to use, all of my students are going to start at page one, and PROVE they are ready for harder work by moving through it quickly and accurately. I'm learning that almost every problem starts at grade 1 :tongue_smilie: Phonics, handwriting, number recognition, grade 1 science, grade 1 geography. And what SHOULD be available for grade 1 history if ANYONE was writing THAT right :confused::confused::confused:

 

Good luck. And see if your library has HTT. Most of them do.

Edited by Hunter
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http://www.amazon.com/Using-Cuisenaire-Rods-Photo-Teachers/dp/0914040049/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=3J4E1L5UUHHB3&coliid=IR9IB1NF6B6GR (cheap if you buy used)

 

I have an old set of C-Rods (from when i was a kid) and it came with a booklet and activity cards to guide you, but I'm not sure if new sets still come with anything like this...?? Maybe someone else here can answer that.

 

Thanks what about the Math Made Meaningful book?

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Good luck. And see if your library has HTT. Most of them do.

 

Would you believe I have the HTT set? It was the first thing I bought when we started homeschooling. I was pulled away by other curriculum and raving reviews. Dont get me wrong CLE is great but as usual it is lacking in some area. I have conceded that I will not find a one size fits all program so I am willing to take the time to pull separate things together to create the whole picture. I will have to dig the set out again and take another look at it.

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My DD is older than yours (13) and we have tried countless different supplements to learn the conceptual side of math. Our situation is a bit different in that we now suspect DD may have dyscalculia and are going to have her tested. We use and love Rod and Staff but DD truely doesn't understand the logic behind math.

 

We looked at several on-line tutorials and are considering Math Whizz based on the kind feedback I received from hive members and trying the samples.The people at Math Whizz have given us a three week trial as they could not answer specific questions regarding my DD's situation.

 

Perhaps it would be a fit for your DD. Home School Buyer's co-op offers Math Whizz yearly subscriptions for $119.00.

 

Best Wishes!

 

Math Whizz is more of a conventional program, in my experience. It does not really do the conceptual math very well compared to Dreambox. For my kids I have a subscription to both Math Whizz and Dreambox- the Math Whizz is for the conventional type learning and the Dreambox I use fpr the conceptual. Dreambox uses a lot of abacus games and mental math.

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Some of us think differently. Some of us need to learn the algorithms and use them until they are second nature to us, and *then* we can understand that there are two 10s in 24 and one 10 in 14.

 

Just sayin'...:D

 

 

I have one child who is like this. Just give him the facts and the algorithms. Anything else just confuses him. (That's why we switched him back to R&S so he can focus on the facts without all the other stuff that CLE was throwing at him. He is MUCH happier, and I'm sure in time he will be ready for more, but there's no reason to rush it.)

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Is there a book that can be used with the Cuisenaire rods to tell you what to do with them?

 

Those Education Unboxed videos are even better than a book, IMO. And I almost always learn things better by reading about them. You can click on a concept (like place value) and see activities to teach it.

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I had base-10 cubes/blocks and cuisanaire type and to be honest prefer to just use the duplo size square legos.

 

Just make stacks of 10 of each color and work out addition problems (starting with single digit) using the cubes. Symbolic math developed from the concrete and I think it is more natural to show it that way.

 

Math isn't just arithmetic!

 

Try this: show them 2 balls and give then 1 more ball. Ask them how many balls they have. Now give them 2 stuffed bunnies and give them one more. How many stuffed bunnies do they have now? Understand that in counting objects, it doesn't matter if you are counting balls or bunnies. Similarly, if you are ADDING, it doesn't matter if you are adding the number of balls or bunnies, 2+1=3. This is a fundamental and very powerful aspect of math -- the very fact we CAN generalize it and move from the concrete to the abstract. Many great civilizations never got this one simple idea, so don't discount it as trivial!

 

It is also why it is worthwhile to both to memorize that 1+2=3. I mean, if the answer was different for balls and bunnies, why would I bother? Sometimes we forget to tell kids WHY we ask them to memorize their math facts, but the reason is it saves effort.

 

Now, to place value, watch the old Schoolhouse Rock video "My Hero Zero" and talk about how we can write any number from 10 digits by being careful of the order (place value). You can talk about OTHER ways you might do this, like use different colors or put the number of tens inside circles or underline, etc. The point is that it is just a convention we follow.

 

Now do those problems using the cubes with the rule that you can't have more than 10 cubes in a tower and you put the number of tens in one column and the number of ones in another. IOW, if I add 12 cubes to 21 cubes, show that if I group the cubes into 10s FIRST, that I can just count the number of tens I had and the number of ones I had separately. Now, I can just count them up, but again I can save EFFORT if I use the fact that I already know that 1+2=3 to solve 12+21=33. Because 1+2=3 whether I am adding balls, bunnies, ones, or tens.

 

By seeing that no matter how they add, the result is the same they should start developing a sense for place value. Make it a playful activity. The whole point is to internalize the conventions to their own natural ways of thinking "math", rather than learning some subject called "math". Let then do probelms hands on until they develop a sense for them.

 

HTHs.

Edited by ChandlerMom
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I just saw this book looking for something else

 

Sir Cumference and All the King's Tens: A Math Adventure

 

I'm looking for ideas to use money to teach arithemetic, not money, but ARITHMETIC. Professor B does a good job of using fingers as a manipulative. HTT recommends using just fingers and money. I'm so glad you have HTT. I'm fascinated with the math section. And I'd like to use Sam's recommendation on using money, but am still figuring out how. Saxon 54 has printable paper money, in the TM and I have plenty of coins.

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Those Education Unboxed videos are even better than a book, IMO. And I almost always learn things better by reading about them. You can click on a concept (like place value) and see activities to teach it.

 

ok so for this I need the rods and base 10 blocks?

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I really love CLE, so we are going to use MM alongside CLE (on sale now through HSBC for a few more days!).

:iagree: I'd buy MM now while it is on sale and get the package of all grades to print yourself. I LOVE it! We have used grades 1-4 so far. I especially love that there is no TM. The teaching is on the pages and directed to the child. So they can work on it on their own, but I can teach from it too. It has been a perfect fit for us.

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If you don't have them I would definitely get c-rods or base ten blocks. I prefer base ten for place value. My dd wasn't getting place value in CLE either. This became especially clear when we hit decimals. All it took for us was a couple weeks of reviewing pv in different ways such as: I'd give her a number and have her fill in a place value chart, or have her tell me the tens/hundreds/units in any given number, use base ten blocks to build numbers. I don't know if this will be the case for you, but it turns out that her understanding was actually good, she was just rusty on the terminology.

 

If you are looking for another program to supplement CLE that would give more conceptual understanding and add mental math, I would recommend adding in some MEP. 2A would be a good place to start. I bet your dd could whip through 2 lessons a day to start with and it will really deepen her understanding. (I wouldn't bother following the lessons - just go through the worksheets in your situation)

 

I use MM to supplement CLE and it is a good combo, but I think MEP would be even better in your situation.

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I really liked the simplicity of CLE, DD hated it. She was bored silly and retained nothing. So we tried MM... again I liked it, she hates it. We did some "homemade" math stuff for awhile, then Beast Academy came along. It is the first thing she asks to do. She will, months later, bring up some funny thing Grogg did with polyominoes. She loves it and remembers it. I could not ask for anything more.... except if they would put them out quicker.

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http://www.amazon.com/Using-Cuisenaire-Rods-Photo-Teachers/dp/0914040049/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=3J4E1L5UUHHB3&coliid=IR9IB1NF6B6GR (cheap if you buy used)

 

I have an old set of C-Rods (from when i was a kid) and it came with a booklet and activity cards to guide you, but I'm not sure if new sets still come with anything like this...?? Maybe someone else here can answer that.

 

Mathematics Made Meaninful may be what you had

It comes with cuisenaire rods, a booklet and activity cards

 

ok so for this I need the rods and base 10 blocks?

 

For the videos on Education Unboxed you would need cuisenaire rods and hundred flats. She doesn't use base 10 blocks, except for the hundreds flats. Here's a link to her video on what she suggets you buy.

 

Miquon Math uses cuisenaire rods.

 

Idea Book for Cuisenaire Rods at the Primary level would also help you get your feet wet.

 

You can also do a search on the forums for Miquon Math and Cuisenaire Rods and come up with some helpful threads.

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Maybe just heaps more talking. If she likes maths this shouldn't be painful. My sob enjoys doing oral maths with me in bed in the mornings (I just like to staying warm and comfortable for another half hour). If you find big holes you can go o er it again.

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