Family income poll

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

You are paying those illegals others ways. You do know that.

You pay more insurance because of them (all the free ER visit), you pay more tax because of them (Go to school for free). Let alone the crime they brought. Just just because they are cheaper, Does not make illegal ok.

 

Again, you going back to the issue that there are jobs, but people "choice" not to take it.

 

Funny, all the criminals I've seen in the paper lately have been Americans.

[LMA]

:grouphug:

 

 

Just remember the cost of living, hon. If we lived in some places, our comfortable mid-west income wouldn't pay for housing. The DC area, San Francisco, and, I believe Boston, are very expensive areas. And we would starve.

 

Boston or MA in general is no way as expensive as the other two areas and is still cheaper than places like CT and NY. Proposition 2 1/2 keeps property taxes low.

[elegantlion]

It feels slightly less good when you realize that the money you've earned from that hard days work won't cover both rent and food.

 

Or when you have a heart attack. :glare:

 

Or when you're on "salary" which is code for don't 6itch for working all those extra hours for NO additional pay, especially those hours we just added to your schedule. You know those ones we told you last week that wouldn't change. Oh, and we (the company) can get away with it because of the way the labor law reads. :glare: I figured up the additional money the company was getting by adding 4 more hours a week per employee. Yeah, not cool.

 

OR MY FAVORITE:

 

Or when you are hired for one manufacturing position and they stick you on another machine, then fire you after one week when you ask about the discrepancy. :glare:

 

- but your wife is secretly glad because they paid just above minimum wage, you would have had to scrap money together for the GAS to get to work, and the machine you were working on was too much physical labor for a man who recently had a heart attack, and he wouldn't have taken the job had they been upfront about the machine he would be hired to work on.

[Kathryn]

Actually I've worked in factory and supermarket jobs etc. and I've also earned at or below minimum wage, especially when you figure in the number of hours I worked for no extra pay. I know exactly what it feels like to come home after a long shift of standing on my feet in a hot factory with my hair and pores full of itchy fiberglass. It feels GOOD! There's nothing like a good day's work. Especially if that work happens to be volunteer work.

 

It feels good to pull your own weight. There is NOTHING wrong with asking a citizen to contribute toward services he receives. How has someone convinced you that there is LESS dignity in contributing than in getting a free ride?

 

WHAT? :confused: It feels good to work your ass off all day long, and part of the night too, and still not be able to support your family without help?

 

You are paying those illegals others ways. You do know that.

You pay more insurance because of them (all the free ER visit), you pay more tax because of them (Go to school for free). Let alone the crime they brought. Just just because they are cheaper, Does not make illegal ok.

 

Again, you going back to the issue that there are jobs, but people "choice" not to take it.

 

:001_huh:

[mommaduck]

It feels slightly less good when you realize that the money you've earned from that hard days work won't cover both rent and food.

And try doing that year after year after year and things don't get any better. Yes, work feels good. But it also feels hopeless and pointless after so long.

[mommaduck]

Wow. How can you compare volunteer work with people doing that job and not getting paid enough to feed and house their family? Who do you think is living on easy street while getting a free ride? Never mind. I am clearly wasting my time.

 

 

 

Mergath was referring to all kinds of low-paid workers. Americans don't take jobs that don't pay enough to feed a family in the US versus sending that money back to Mexico. *Plenty* of Americans on assistance work. Many of them more than one job. They are still below the poverty line and still qualify for assistance. Do you honestly not understand that?

THANK YOU!!!!!

[jennynd]

Wow. How can you compare volunteer work with people doing that job and not getting paid enough to feed and house their family? Who do you think is living on easy street while getting a free ride? Never mind. I am clearly wasting my time.

 

 

 

Mergath was referring to all kinds of low-paid workers. Americans don't take jobs that don't pay enough to feed a family in the US versus sending that money back to Mexico. *Plenty* of Americans on assistance work. Many of them more than one job. They are still below the poverty line and still qualify for assistance. Do you honestly not understand that?

 

I thought I make that CLEAR that I understand there are low pay job in US and people struggle to make ends meet. I had no problem for government assistance for those trying but just can't make it.

BUT I have problem for those thinking without education/skill, they still want to make high pay job therefore, they "Choose" not to take low pay job and stay home taking welfare and complain...

I Do get people taking multiple jobs to make ends meet. My Dad did. But My Dad never ever complain it is too hard and rather to get assistance and stay home

[Mergath]

Mergath was referring to all kinds of low-paid workers. Americans don't take jobs that don't pay enough to feed a family in the US versus sending that money back to Mexico. *Plenty* of Americans on assistance work. Many of them more than one job. They are still below the poverty line and still qualify for assistance. Do you honestly not understand that?

 

:iagree: Should have been more clear, I guess.

[Mrs Mungo]

And try doing that year after year after year and things don't get any better. Yes, work feels good. But it also feels hopeless and pointless after so long.

 

Or try doing that backbreaking warehouse job for 29 years and have them fire you just in time to not give you any retirement benefits. They offer to "re-hire" you, if you apply to a different position, but then tell you that you don't have enough references since you have only worked for the one company your entire adult life. This crap is happening *every day* because of the loss of worker protections. It is exactly why the divide between wealthy (and I don't mean people making 100k/year) and extremely poor is getting bigger by the second.

[mommaduck]

Or try doing that backbreaking warehouse job for 29 years and have them fire you just in time to not give you any retirement benefits. They offer to "re-hire" you, if you apply to a different position, but then tell you that you don't have enough references since you have only worked for the one company your entire adult life. This crap is happening *every day* because of the loss of worker protections. It is exactly why the divide between wealthy (and I don't mean people making 100k/year) and extremely poor is getting bigger by the second.

Yep. We see it happen all the time, to our neighbours and to DH's coworkers at the various places he has worked.

[SKL]

The illegal migrant workers are the only ones who will work for so little pay as to keep our food prices low. You might be willing to pay more so that farmers can afford to hire legal workers, but most people aren't (though they'll happily complain about illegal workers whenever they have the chance).

 

I actually do pay more to buy food that is produced in line with my principles, but if I say that here, I'll be told that means I'm privileged or snooty or something.

[SKL]

Did you have children when you worked these jobs, or were you only responsible for yourself?

 

Actually I was a full-time college student working two jobs (60 hrs) to defray the cost of my education, and in my "spare time," I helped raise my younger siblings among other things.

 

ETA: I still work very long hours as a parent (single mom), but it's not in a factory at this point in time.

[Mrs Mungo]

I actually do pay more to buy food that is produced in line with my principles, but if I say that here, I'll be told that means I'm privileged or snooty or something.

 

Where do you shop that food is labeled as being picked and/or produced by people earning a living wage? Or were you talking about principles wholly unrelated to the discussion at hand?

[jennynd]

sigh.. I give up....

 

Anyhow, My MIL's brother only with high school diploma, He got laid off at age of 56. He went back to school took computer science courses and 2 yrs after, he got a 6 figure job.

 

So, what do you want with your situation if you find yourself struggling??

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Actually I was a full-time college student working two jobs (60 hrs) to defray the cost of my education, and in my "spare time," I helped raise my younger siblings among other things.

 

Right, that's admirable for sure. But you weren't working to pay for a family's food, medical coverage, housing, etc. Am I correct? Financially, you were only responsible for yourself, is what I'm getting at.

[Mrs Mungo]

Actually I was a full-time college student working two jobs (60 hrs) to defray the cost of my education, and in my "spare time," I helped raise my younger siblings among other things.

 

I did the same, but I was young, able-minded and able-bodied without the responsibility of actually paying to fully support my family. Therefore, I can recognize that it was a completely and totally different scenario from those being described.

[justamouse]

All this arguing about jobs, as if there was a plethora to choose from at this point. All this arguing about low paying jobs--as if EVERYONE has a high paying job at this point?

 

If the economy turns around, and jobs start opening up, things will automatically change. Families will have choices. Right now there are none, and constantly telling well off people how they are clueless on how it is to live in poverty is unfair, as many of us have worked our way out. And without 'help'. The thought that there's this imaginary help out there that the poor weren't given leads to a victim mentality. It's not my fault I'm poor, I wasn't given the same opportunity.... But funnily enough, there are so many immigrants who come here with nothing and *make* it. Not only make it, but make it big. And they don't complain how it wasn't fair.

 

If we can get the country back on track, those opportunities will return.

[Kathryn]

sigh.. I give up....

 

Anyhow, My MIL's brother only with high school diploma, He got laid off at age of 56. He went back to school took computer science courses and 2 yrs after, he got a 6 figure job.

 

So, what do you want with your situation if you find yourself struggling??

 

See, this is EXACTLY the kind of comment that sounds so incredibly ridiculous. Yes, those things happen. But, there are many, many unskilled and semi-skilled workers who do not have the ability to do this, whether because of intellectual ability, health, or life circumstances beyond their control. Do you honestly believe that everyone has the ability to get a two-year degree and make six figures?

[Lady Florida.]

BUT I have problem for those thinking without education/skill, they still want to make high pay job therefore, they "Choose" not to take low pay job and stay home taking welfare and complain...

 

You do know that work is a requirement for people on welfare, don't you? And that there is a lifetime maximum on receiving welfare benefits? You're aware of that, right? Right?

[elegantlion]

See, this is EXACTLY the kind of comment that sounds so incredibly ridiculous. Yes, those things happen. But, there are many, many unskilled and semi-skilled workers who do not have the ability to do this, whether because of intellectual ability, health, or life circumstances beyond their control. Do you honestly believe that everyone has the ability to get a two-year degree and make six figures?

 

This is the kind of opportunity dh was considering, but no one around here is hiring 50+ year old men with certification and no experience.

[mommaduck]

All this arguing about jobs, as if there was a plethora to choose from at this point. All this arguing about low paying jobs--as if EVERYONE has a high paying job at this point?

 

If the economy turns around, and jobs start opening up, things will automatically change. Families will have choices. Right now there are none, and constantly telling well off people how they are clueless on how it is to live in poverty is unfair, as many of us have worked our way out. And without 'help'. The thought that there's this imaginary help out there that the poor weren't given leads to a victim mentality. It's not my fault I'm poor, I wasn't given the same opportunity.... But funnily enough, there are so many immigrants who come here with nothing and *make* it. Not only make it, but make it big. And they don't complain how it wasn't fair.

 

If we can get the country back on track, those opportunities will return.

Many of the immigrants, in our area, come here either alone (with no family to support) or are brought here by the Mennonite Council who provide for them until they are able to get full benefits from public assistance. They live in abject poverty and bring down wages. Because where a job would pay $15hr 10yrs ago, it now pays only $8hr. Rent has gone up, not down. So now we've limited even the few jobs there are and dragged down wages that once supported a family modestly.

[Mrs Mungo]

You do know that work is a requirement for people on welfare, don't you? And that there is a lifetime maximum on receiving welfare benefits? You're aware of that, right? Right?

 

If you are in a swing state (like I am), then they may be seeing some very misleading or outright false commercials on this subject. Factcheck or politifact can help with that. eta: But, even that requires people to actually care what the truth is.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[mommaduck]

You do know that work is a requirement for people on welfare, don't you? And that there is a lifetime maximum on receiving welfare benefits? You're aware of that, right? Right?

There is a faulty rumour going around, I know on Hulu commercials at least, that welfare to work was ended. Ha! So, yes, there are people that are clueless to these facts. Just as some people are posting on FB about how the "Obama phone" give free phones, smart phones even!, with unlimited minutes away. Untrue.

[QueenCat]

There is a faulty rumour going around, I know on Hulu commercials at least, that welfare to work was ended. Ha! So, yes, there are people that are clueless to these facts. Just as some people are posting on FB about how the "Obama phone" give free phones, smart phones even!, with unlimited minutes away. Untrue.

 

Unfortunately, it is amazing what people will believe, just because they saw it on the internet or in an email. On many different subjects.

[justamouse]

Let them off the hook? The only reason people like you and me can buy things so cheaply is because so many jobs in this country pay next to nothing. How much do you think that gallon of milk would cost if every grocery store in the country paid a living wage? How much do you think your home would cost if so many people- like my dh- didn't do the country's manufacturing work for wages barely above poverty level? How much would your food cost if farmers didn't have dirt cheap labor to go out and harvest it? Someone has to do all these jobs for very, very little so that we can have all our stuff so cheaply. You should be getting down on your hands and knees and thanking these people for their cheap labor, not sneering down your nose at them.

 

 

Much of farm work is automated. There is no immigrant milking every cow, they're hooked up, sucked out, the tank comes and brings it to the factory.

 

The real reason that we need below minimum wage workers is because regulation in this country is so high, that if everyone got paid a 'living wage' the end product would be so high no one could afford it.

 

Ever read Joel Salatin's books on how the Ag industry is so overregulated it makes it impossible for him to be competitive in the market? How it blocks that market, and favors large farms who get massive subsidies who love Monsanto?

 

Let's not pretend there is this poetic image of immigrant farm workers on every American farm, picking our produce. That's not the case. And in some areas, where immigrants are used, it's because Americans won't, and I know that firsthand from one of the largest Blueberry farmers in the US.

 

I started working when I was 13, and got up at 4 am to go pick berries on a local farm. I picked apples in the snow. It was hard work, but I was happy to get it because my family was not well off and I had to pay for my own clothes. I got paid under the table. I'm ok with that. Picking apples is not some graduate degree level work, it's just labor intensive.

 

NO kids work like that now a days. I went back to that farm last week and talked to my old boss. He can't get any kids to harvest like he used to.

 

I know a large greenhouse (tropical plants) owner who can't get anyone to help other than immigrants.

 

My mother manages 5 Home Depot plant centers (the plants are contracted out from another company) and she has plenty of work and can't get kids to work for her, and when she can, she ends up having to fire them because they won't work as hard as they need to--because they think shuffling plants around should garner them 25k a year.

 

I do believe in a living wage--but every job is not *worth* that much.

 

We OWN a manufacturing plant. We pay our workers well, and give benefits. I worked in a manufacturing plant. They're not ALL backbreaking hard work. And, frankly, America hardly manufactures a thing anymore.

Edited August 31, 2012 by justamouse
split my infinitives

[Lady Florida.]

If you are in a swing state (like I am), then they may be seeing some very misleading or outright false commercials on this subject. Factcheck or politifact can help with that. eta: But, even that requires people to actually care what the truth is.

 

There is a faulty rumour going around, I know on Hulu commercials at least, that welfare to work was ended. Ha! So, yes, there are people that are clueless to these facts. Just as some people are posting on FB about how the "Obama phone" give free phones, smart phones even!, with unlimited minutes away. Untrue.

 

I'm in a swing state and see those commercials several times a night. I want to yell at my tv every time it comes on. I haven't heard about the "Obama phone" and am glad. I think my head would explode.

[jennynd]

See, this is EXACTLY the kind of comment that sounds so incredibly ridiculous. Yes, those things happen. But, there are many, many unskilled and semi-skilled workers who do not have the ability to do this, whether because of intellectual ability, health, or life circumstances beyond their control. Do you honestly believe that everyone has the ability to get a two-year degree and make six figures?

 

Did they tried? or they just automatically give up because it is too hard?

 

No, i don't believe everybody can do that. but if you don't try, how will you know. And My questions was "What you gonna do with yourself when you find yourself struggling". And the problem with most people is "Nothing, because it is too hard"

[justamouse]

Many of the immigrants, in our area, come here either alone (with no family to support) or are brought here by the Mennonite Council who provide for them until they are able to get full benefits from public assistance. They live in abject poverty and bring down wages. Because where a job would pay $15hr 10yrs ago, it now pays only $8hr. Rent has gone up, not down. So now we've limited even the few jobs there are and dragged down wages that once supported a family modestly.

 

Things like rent have gone up because they HAVE to. Gas is double, electric is higher because coal is on the fritz. Taxes have gone up because towns are getting less state aide which is a trickle down of less federal dollars to states. The states were propped up, and it all fell down. Rental owners have to charge more to be able to pay the overhead. My taxes went up 1000 this year, I kid you not, and the reason was because they had to raise the rateables because they got less state aide.

 

Pay went down because companies aren't making what they used to. Gas going up shot shipping through the ROOF, and the market isn't going to absorb the full product amt of that rise.

 

It's not at all like owners woke up one day and said, "Screw em all!"

 

What we can sell an item for, dictates what we can pay workers. You can only charge so much for tomatoes or green beans. If a simple thing like gas went down, shipping costs would be *cut in half*. Which would lead to more room for better wages.

Edited August 31, 2012 by justamouse

[Laura Corin]

Did they tried? or they just automatically give up because it is too hard?

 

No, i don't believe everybody can do that. but if you don't try, how will you know. And My questions was "What you gonna do with yourself when you find yourself struggling". And the problem with most people is "Nothing, because it is too hard"

 

I did a computer course starting last September in order to prepare to change jobs. I knew how to use computers but I needed the piece of paper that proved it.

 

The computer course shared a building and some tutors with people on a 'Step In' course - highly disadvantaged people (parental abuse, drugs at home, crime at home) who have come out of school with no qualifications. Some of them also have low IQs. Some of the people graduated from the Step In course to very basic computing, so I shared a classroom with them. Honestly, I don't know how they will get jobs. Yes they want to work. Yes, they are trying. But they are so very damaged that any employer is going to choose someone else. And there are plenty of smart, capable unemployed people out there. I learned a lot over the six months I studied there.

 

Of course there are people who will abuse any system: poor people who abuse welfare systems, rich people who abuse taxation systems. But there are people who will probably never be chosen for work unless we go back to a Western economy that is desperate for any kind of worker, no matter what their ability.

 

Laura

[SKL]

Wow. How can you compare volunteer work with people doing that job and not getting paid enough to feed and house their family? Who do you think is living on easy street while getting a free ride? Never mind. I am clearly wasting my time.

 

 

 

My comment was in the context of expecting non-taxpayers to perform some sort of service for the common good. I don't buy into the idea that if your income is below a tax-paying level, you are necessarily overworked and miserable. Lots of folks are content in that situation, and that's great - but they still need to help pull their own weight government-wise.

[Crimson Wife]

It feels slightly less good when you realize that the money you've earned from that hard days work won't cover both rent and food.

 

There are two ways of addressing this problem- raising wages (which would cause inflation and higher unemployment) or figuring out some way to help housing and food be more affordable so that purchasing power is greater.

 

While my preference is for market incentives to help bring down the costs of these basics (things like getting rid of "snob" zoning laws, giving tax credits to developers who construct affordable housing, etc.), I am not opposed to assistance programs like food stamps, WIC, section 8, etc. for U.S. citizens *IF* the family receiving them has a full-time worker or full-time student/trainee. I would exempt those who are legitimately disabled, and those who are actively job-hunting but unemployed could substitute a certain number of hours of community service.

 

I get so frustrated with both the left and the right on this issue. Liberals with their anti-capitalist and class warfare rhetoric annoy me no end, but too many conservatives seem unsympathetic to the plight of the working class. There are millions of Americans who work hard but have very little purchasing power because the cost of basics are so high. :(

[SKL]

Right, that's admirable for sure. But you weren't working to pay for a family's food, medical coverage, housing, etc. Am I correct? Financially, you were only responsible for yourself, is what I'm getting at.

 

So what? I was paying for myself, giving money to my parents, and paying for the education that would eventually support my children as a single mother. Are you saying that everyone who works hard and doesn't pay tax is a poor head of household? I'm sorry, but that is hardly the case.

[FairyMom]

 

I'm not bitter about people making more money.

 

I'm bitter about people who keep saying everyone should pull themselves up by their bootstraps and yet completely ignoring that many people don't have boots.

 

I'm bitter about people who whine about foodstamps and EIC, but who refuse to acknowledge that welfare is cheaper than paying a living wage to every citizen for every job.

 

I'm bitter about people who want the government to help their neighbor, when it's the job of neighbors to help neighbors. That the government has to feed the hungry and comfort the sick at all is a sad statement of nation to live out the beatitudes and works of mercy. (which are usually considered good regardless of religious or lack of beliefs)

 

I'm bitter about big companies that don't give a rats patootie about their employees.

 

I'm bitter that if we work our selves into early graves, it still might not help our children to have a better life than we have had.

 

Money doesn't buy happiness, but it sure as hell helps. It buys freedom to make choices, that not having money denies many people. It just does.

 

Exactly!

[justamouse]

There are two ways of addressing this problem- raising wages (which would cause inflation and higher unemployment) or figuring out some way to help housing and food be more affordable so that purchasing power is greater.

 

While my preference is for market incentives to help bring down the costs of these basics (things like getting rid of "snob" zoning laws, giving tax credits to developers who construct affordable housing, etc.), I am not opposed to assistance programs like food stamps, WIC, section 8, etc. for U.S. citizens *IF* the family receiving them has a full-time worker or full-time student/trainee. I would exempt those who are legitimately disabled, and those who are actively job-hunting but unemployed could substitute a certain number of hours of community service.

 

I get so frustrated with both the left and the right on this issue. Liberals with their anti-capitalist and class warfare rhetoric annoy me no end, but too many conservatives seem unsympathetic to the plight of the working class. There are millions of Americans who work hard but have very little purchasing power because the cost of basics are so high. :(

 

I honestly don't see many conservatives who are unsympathetic. The conservatives I know give to the food banks, start the unwed mother houses, and fund the charities within the local community. The huge (conservative) business owners in our county give amazing amounts of money to charities, pay for the fundraisers, have started state wide charity groups. My little county can't be an anomaly. We are a red county in a blue state.

 

Subsidiary. What can be done on a local level to care for the community, should be done locally, not federally.

[SKL]

I did the same, but I was young, able-minded and able-bodied without the responsibility of actually paying to fully support my family. Therefore, I can recognize that it was a completely and totally different scenario from those being described.

 

What are you talking about? I'm saying I've done hard work and it feels good. I've done hard work as a single mom, and that feels good too. I've done volunteer work as a parent and a non-parent and both felt good too. I pay taxes and up to a point, even that feels good.

 

Anyone can have a heart attack or get injured. I know some computer geeks who are terribly overweight and some of them have had serious health problems and one died around age 40, leaving a wife and kids. Physical work is actually better for the health, especially in the USA where there are so many OSHA regulations and protections.

 

I'm sure there are some sad true stories out there, but there are many more cases of people just deciding that they are content with a certain level of achievement, and that is great! There is nothing better than being content with what one has. But that doesn't mean one shouldn't have an obligation to cover a fair share of common expenses.

[mommaduck]

Unfortunately, it is amazing what people will believe, just because they saw it on the internet or in an email. On many different subjects.

I would have believed it at one time. I know not to believe it, because I'm having to live with it.

[SKL]

You do know that work is a requirement for people on welfare, don't you? And that there is a lifetime maximum on receiving welfare benefits? You're aware of that, right? Right?

 

Sure, and I'm aware of people who have kids finishing high school who have been on welfare almost the entire time those kids have been growing up. It's a full time job gaming the system; give these people some credit.

[QueenCat]

I honestly don't see many conservatives who are unsympathetic. The conservatives I know give to the food banks, start the unwed mother houses, and fund the charities within the local community. The huge (conservative) business owners in our county give amazing amounts of money to charities, pay for the fundraisers, have started state wide charity groups. My little county can't be an anomaly. We are a red county in a blue state.

 

Subsidiary. What can be done on a local level to care for the community, should be done locally, not federally.

 

That's my observation as well. And there are plenty of "liberals" who believe in capitalism but see that human need also needs to be considered. I hate stereotypes like I've seen here, in many posts (not from you).

[mommaduck]

What are you talking about? I'm saying I've done hard work and it feels good. I've done hard work as a single mom, and that feels good too. I've done volunteer work as a parent and a non-parent and both felt good too. I pay taxes and up to a point, even that feels good.

 

Anyone can have a heart attack or get injured. I know some computer geeks who are terribly overweight and some of them have had serious health problems and one died around age 40, leaving a wife and kids. Physical work is actually better for the health, especially in the USA where there are so many OSHA regulations and protections.

 

I'm sure there are some sad true stories out there, but there are many more cases of people just deciding that they are content with a certain level of achievement, and that is great! There is nothing better than being content with what one has. But that doesn't mean one shouldn't have an obligation to cover a fair share of common expenses.

:lol::lol::lol::lol: funny!!!!! Let me count the number of companies that don't follow OSHA and get away with it. And the number of people that get fired if they report their company.

[mommaduck]

Much of farm work is automated. There is no immigrant milking every cow, they're hooked up, sucked out, the tank comes and brings it to the factory.

 

The real reason that we need below minimum wage workers is because regulation in this country is so high, that if everyone got paid a 'living wage' the end product would be so high no one could afford it.

 

Ever read Joel Salatin's books on how the Ag industry is so overregulated it makes it impossible for him to be competitive in the market? How it blocks that market, and favors large farms who get massive subsidies who love Monsanto?

 

Let's not pretend there is this poetic image of immigrant farm workers on every American farm, picking our produce. That's not the case. And in some areas, where immigrants are used, it's because Americans won't, and I know that firsthand from one of the largest Blueberry farmers in the US.

 

I started working when I was 13, and got up at 4 am to go pick berries on a local farm. I picked apples in the snow. It was hard work, but I was happy to get it because my family was not well off and I had to pay for my own clothes. I got paid under the table. I'm ok with that. Picking apples is not some graduate degree level work, it's just labor intensive.

 

NO kids work like that now a days. I went back to that farm last week and talked to my old boss. He can't get any kids to harvest like he used to.

 

I know a large greenhouse (tropical plants) owner who can't get anyone to help other than immigrants.

 

My mother manages 5 Home Depot plant centers (the plants are contracted out from another company) and she has plenty of work and can't get kids to work for her, and when she can, she ends up having to fire them because they won't work as hard as they need to--because they think shuffling plants around should garner them 25k a year.

 

I do believe in a living wage--but every job is not *worth* that much.

 

We OWN a manufacturing plant. We pay our workers well, and give benefits. I worked in a manufacturing plant. They're not ALL backbreaking hard work. And, frankly, America hardly manufactures a thing anymore.

My oldest kids would love to work on a farm for lower wages. The work would be good for them. No one will hire them because of concerns of age and workers' comp.

[justamouse]

:lol::lol::lol::lol: funny!!!!! Let me count the number of companies that don't follow OSHA and get away with it. And the number of people that get fired if they report their company.

 

They don't follow, because they are over restricting and hold back the company. Some regulations are so overburdensome it's a wonder that the company survives at all. And the current administration is handing regulations out like free cotton candy. We have seriously thought of shutting down because of the regulations that have come out these past few years. It is making doing business untenable. I am not kidding when I say that many business owners are going to fold their hand if it doesn't turn around soon, and then see what kind of job choices are out there.

 

Many regulations protect the big players-and they are made to protect the big players who give the most $ to the party.

[justamouse]

My oldest kids would love to work on a farm for lower wages. The work would be good for them. No one will hire them because of concerns of age and workers' comp.

 

The farm is right over the Jersey line. :001_smile: Workers comp is a serious problem these days, too. I sympathize.

 

re: workers comp-

 

some states have 'repurposed' workers comp fund for other state accnts that were drained. Then they go back to the companies, and say, "whoops, all of the $ is gone out of the comp fund and we're now charging you another 500$ PER EMPLOYEE to refund it. Which leads to fewer hirings.

Edited August 31, 2012 by justamouse

[SKL]

:lol::lol::lol::lol: funny!!!!! Let me count the number of companies that don't follow OSHA and get away with it. And the number of people that get fired if they report their company.

 

The factories I worked in were so stupid-proof, it was ridiculous. However, I did hear of a woman who crushed her hand in a press, by constructing a tool that would fake the machine into thinking she was pressing the right buttons at the right time. Not sure why she found it so burdensome to push the buttons (which I was pushing at a very productive pace with no ill effects). I guess she thought she'd be smart.

[mommaduck]

They don't follow, because they are over restricting and hold back the company. Some regulations are so overburdensome it's a wonder that the company survives at all. And the current administration is handing regulations out like free cotton candy. We have seriously thought of shutting down because of the regulations that have come out these past few years. It is making doing business untenable. I am not kidding when I say that many business owners are going to fold their hand if it doesn't turn around soon, and then see what kind of job choices are out there.

 

Many regulations protect the big players-and they are made to protect the big players who give the most $ to the party.

Not in this case. In the case I'm referring to, it's a cheese company that had a rotting roof, black mold EVERY WHERE, employees suffering from black mold poisoning (both internally and externally), roaches (extreme amount for a plant) living inside the covers of tanks, drop some caustic acid into the cheese mix and the managers insist on just diluting the cheese mix, product left in broken a/c trailers and left to rot, sometimes cooled and then sold, etc. Machines that are supposed to be broken down, cleaned and parts replaced, never get broken down and cleaned properly because the managers refuse to order parts (you can't put old parts back on without leaks and if you did, it's the low man that took it apart that gets blamed...darned if you and darned if you don't).

 

THIS was not a case of over restriction. My husband has worked for more than one cheese plant. He knows what sanitation is expected and if a plant can't take care of these problems, then they need to not be in business (if for no other reason than because of the health of the customers).

[mommaduck]

The farm is right over the Jersey line. :001_smile: Workers comp is a serious problem these days, too. I sympathize.

 

re: workers comp-

 

some states have 'repurposed' workers comp fund for other state accnts that were drained. Then they go back to the companies, and say, "whoops, all of the $ is gone out of the comp fund and we're now charging you another 500$ PER EMPLOYEE to refund it. Which leads to fewer hirings.

I agree that that is wrong. It's stealing from both the employer and the employee.

 

I'm afraid your farm is too far away for my children. One car and none of the teens drive yet. It would have to be within our county.

[SKL]

Not in this case. In the case I'm referring to, it's a cheese company that had a rotting roof, black mold EVERY WHERE, employees suffering from black mold poisoning (both internally and externally), roaches (extreme amount for a plant) living inside the covers of tanks, drop some caustic acid into the cheese mix and the managers insist on just diluting the cheese mix, product left in broken a/c trailers and left to rot, sometimes cooled and then sold, etc. Machines that are supposed to be broken down, cleaned and parts replaced, never get broken down and cleaned properly because the managers refuse to order parts (you can't put old parts back on without leaks and if you did, it's the low man that took it apart that gets blamed...darned if you and darned if you don't).

 

THIS was not a case of over restriction. My husband has worked for more than one cheese plant. He knows what sanitation is expected and if a plant can't take care of these problems, then they need to not be in business (if for no other reason than because of the health of the customers).

 

It sounds like the other plants your husband worked for had higher standards. You can't use one example of a non-compliant company to argue that American industry overall is unsafe for employees. Yes, rules are sometimes broken - even important ones - but far more often, the ones that matter are followed. Employees are generally safe within the parameters of their jobs. Probably the worst work-related problem is that so many of us can't / don't turn it off for whatever reason, and work too many hours. And this is certainly not confined to low-wage workers. It's been my problem for decades, and honestly it's a choice. I could change some things, give up some things, chill out on some things and improve my life without starving my children.

[justamouse]

Not in this case. In the case I'm referring to, it's a cheese company that had a rotting roof, black mold EVERY WHERE, employees suffering from black mold poisoning (both internally and externally), roaches (extreme amount for a plant) living inside the covers of tanks, drop some caustic acid into the cheese mix and the managers insist on just diluting the cheese mix, product left in broken a/c trailers and left to rot, sometimes cooled and then sold, etc. Machines that are supposed to be broken down, cleaned and parts replaced, never get broken down and cleaned properly because the managers refuse to order parts (you can't put old parts back on without leaks and if you did, it's the low man that took it apart that gets blamed...darned if you and darned if you don't).

 

THIS was not a case of over restriction. My husband has worked for more than one cheese plant. He knows what sanitation is expected and if a plant can't take care of these problems, then they need to not be in business (if for no other reason than because of the health of the customers).

 

My BIL is a parts manufacturer for for big machines like that. They cost a lot of $.

 

Other than that, the FDA has few employees checking what ought to be checked, and harping on people who are small, like us. The FDA recently put out a new regulation saying that if the vitamin wasn't around before 1994 then you can't sell it. This is because the naturals business is getting so large, and they want to control it so that Pharma can stay nice and big, and because Pharma is coming out with products like that fish oil for cholesterol that I won't name? So they are pounding the naturals manufacturers, trying to push them out of the business, but they let huge chicken farms and Big Ag producing plants like that cheese plant (and international drug manufacturers who go once every 7 years) go with no inspections.

 

OSHA shouldn't be the one controlling that plant, the FDA should have been in there, and they should have been shut down or put on consent decree. The FDA in this country is broken and needs to be restructured from the ground up-starting with kicking out the cronies.

[mommaduck]

It sounds like the other plants your husband worked for had higher standards. You can't use one example of a non-compliant company to argue that American industry overall is unsafe for employees. Yes, rules are sometimes broken - even important ones - but far more often, the ones that matter are followed. Employees are generally safe within the parameters of their jobs. Probably the worst work-related problem is that so many of us can't / don't turn it off for whatever reason, and work too many hours. And this is certainly not confined to low-wage workers. It's been my problem for decades, and honestly it's a choice. I could change some things, give up some things, chill out on some things and improve my life without starving my children.

You are more than welcomed to go work there, destroy your health, and die from poisoning. More power to you.

[SKL]

You are more than welcomed to go work there, destroy your health, and die from poisoning. More power to you.

 

:confused: Apparently I was unclear. It sounds like THAT FACTORY is poorly managed, but that doesn't mean ALL factories in the US are.

 

If you hate factories so much, I guess you are fine with more of them moving overseas.

[mommaduck]

:confused: Apparently I was unclear. It sounds like THAT FACTORY is poorly managed, but that doesn't mean ALL factories in the US are.

 

If you hate factories so much, I guess you are fine with more of them moving overseas.

Nice...but I'm sure most of the people here can read well enough to know that I don't think that way and that you are simply putting words in my mouth because you apparently don't have much of a response.

 

Keep the factories here, make them follow the rules, pay a living wage.

 

I don't exercise the ignore button, but I believe I'll make an exception today. None of your posts have been beneficial to an actual discussion. It's all soapboxing about how YOU did such and such and thus EVERYONE can do such and such. Wow, you must have such a wonderful life, I wonder what you could possibly be doing here with us lowlies? Oh, that's right, we all wait with baited breath for you to tell us how we should all be living our lives! :glare:

Edited August 31, 2012 by mommaduck