Family income poll

[LisaKinVA]

It's not that people living with a decent salary in a high cost of living area are poor, it's the assumptions made by people that a certain salary-range MUST equal a certain lifestyle.

 

During my life, I have lived in the SF Bay area (grew up there), Atlanta, Florida, DC, No. VA, Arkansas and Richmond. It was absolutely shocking what we could afford in Gwinett County, GA in the early 80's compared to what a similar house would cost in California...absolutely shocking. It was absolutely palatial in comparison... then we moved to Ft. Lauderdale...then I moved to DC & No. VA. It was less than SF Bay Area...but still pretty pricey. Then, I moved to Arkansas...WOW. $80,000 would get us a brand-spanking new 1800 sq. foot BRICK house, with a nice sized yard, upgraded appliances 3br/2 nice sized bathrooms.

 

$80,000 where we live now MIGHT get you a lot, if you are lucky. But, not a house. In our area, the cheapest listing is $125,000... HERE is a link for the curious as to what $125,000 will buy. Of course, this still looks like a bargain to people in the Bay Area, but we live 65 miles from DC... The next zip code over (which is older...) does have some cheaper properties...most of which are foreclosures, short-sales or HUD-owned (auction) properties. HERE is a $65,000 house (which, if it were fixed up), could probably sell for well over $100,000...but if you look at the link you will see a LOT of work needed, and not just of the cosmetic-sort. The price is really more reflecting the value of the land...which usually indicates the house is either in need of massive work, or is a complete tear-down.

 

I still remember my IL's (from AR/OK) telling us we needed to buy a house (dh was making $40k), They said we should be able to afford a decent $150,000 house on dh's salary...this was in 2006, when that $65,000 As-Is house would have easily sold for about $125,000, received paint and new carpet, a little spit & polish, and probably sold for over $150,000 (it's really in a convenient location). I took her to one we could "afford," and she never mentioned how we should be able to afford a house afterwards (she refused to go in, of course, you could peek inside through the siding :D)

 

So housing comparisons are just one thing that frustrate those of us who make upper-middle-class (or even middle-class) incomes in high COL areas. Other things have to do with assumptions of being able to afford college, how much you must be able to save, or that we must take nice family vacations, or not worry about health care costs, or where we purchase clothes, or any number of things. Honestly, I still feel (in many ways) like we're still struggling on dh's $40,000 a year, because we really haven't changed much, but we are still trying to make up for those many, many years of living on next to nothing.

 

The changes in the health care law will increase the amount of money we pay in taxes (in real terms...), and will also decrease the amount we have the ability to spend on health care (mainly in reference to the changes in FSA). We have depended upon that $5,000 in FSA to help me cover the costs of rebuilding my jaw (in excess of $50,000, to date...with $11,000 still to go), as well as glasses for 4 people, dh's allergy meds, dd's allergy cream, etc. Now, we will have half that amount, which means it's further extended my reconstruction process from being completed in 3 years to another 8. Maybe I'll have a full set of teeth for my 50th birthday. ;)

[Geo]

Sorry I went back and re-read. There was some whining. :-)

 

Wow, I respect your posting this, it's inspiring. I did realize at the time that I was being ungracious to the whiners, but have been feeling crotchety and bitter about our own circumstances this week. I figured nobody probably cares what I think anyway...so I went for it. :banghead: I officially apologize for my snarkiness on all counts...to everyone.

 

Thanks for the good example. :D

[MooCow]

Well, we make the same amount we made before we moved from CA to TN. However, that money goes A LOT further here in TN!!

 

:iagree:

[Mergath]

 

But, I think it is more than that. There have been many, many, many conversations here about how people are responsible for their own bad decisions or "how dare someone on food stamps buy a cake mix for their kid's birthday" or implying that people on assistance are just lazy and living off the rich. There are *several* of those sentiments implied in some of the posts from this very thread.

 

So, I can see why people in the lower incomes, especially those on various forms of assistance would start to feel resentment toward people constantly putting them down.

 

:iagree: but I'm trying to behave today and not get into another argument that leads to dozens of deleted posts. :tongue_smilie:

[Mergath]

So we DID pay over 25% in INCOME TAX... so yeah, it frosts me when I hear that 50% of the country is paying NO income tax.....

 

 

The vast majority of people who pay no taxes after all is said and done are the ones who can barely afford to feed their families. Would you really prefer that they pay the same tax rate as you, and end up homeless and/or starving?

[Michelle My Bell]

I am dirt poor but happy with everything I need. :lol:

[justamouse]

I

 

So housing comparisons are just one thing that frustrate those of us who make upper-middle-class (or even middle-class) incomes in high COL areas. Other things have to do with assumptions of being able to afford college, how much you must be able to save, or that we must take nice family vacations, or not worry about health care costs, or where we purchase clothes, or any number of things. Honestly, I still feel (in many ways) like we're still struggling on dh's $40,000 a year, because we really haven't changed much, but we are still trying to make up for those many, many years of living on next to nothing.

The changes in the health care law will increase the amount of money we pay in taxes (in real terms...), and will also decrease the amount we have the ability to spend on health care (mainly in reference to the changes in FSA). We have depended upon that $5,000 in FSA to help me cover the costs of rebuilding my jaw (in excess of $50,000, to date...with $11,000 still to go), as well as glasses for 4 people, dh's allergy meds, dd's allergy cream, etc. Now, we will have half that amount, which means it's further extended my reconstruction process from being completed in 3 years to another 8. Maybe I'll have a full set of teeth for my 50th birthday. ;)

 

 

You are so right. With all of it, with the bold, best post in this thread.

 

 

And then add in the, "Well you should move...." To where? To what job? My Dh can do one thing, that which he does. It is here, in NJ. If we could move the company, our shipping costs for raw materials would put such a spike in the end cost for the retailer, we'd be priced out.

[Carrie12345]

The vast majority of people who pay no taxes after all is said and done are the ones who can barely afford to feed their families. Would you really prefer that they pay the same tax rate as you, and end up homeless and/or starving?

 

I'm all for paying taxes to help others. Truly. I'm one of those "crazy liberals" Facebook people like to hate on, lol.

 

My only beef is with the idea that I have twice as much tangible income as someone else, when that's not the case. (Thinking of my own relatives and their perceptions, specifically.)

[Soror]

I don't think it's bitterness in general that struggling families feel. I think it's more that many people who are making six-figure salaries often say, "Well, we're struggling too, we aren't any better off in the end." Back when we were living on about twelve grand a year and I heard/read things like that, my thinking was, "Hey, I don't begrudge you your money, but don't try to downplay how soul-crushingly hard it is to live in poverty, either." Because no matter how much you pay in taxes or how much your mortgage payment is, it IS much harder to live on $20,000 a year than $200,000, no matter where you live.

:iagree:

 

Dh and I do fairly well for our area, which is lower col but are nowhere near the top of the poll. We want for nothing and I would consider us very well off(regardless of the age of our cars and the lack of luxuries by today's standards). However, I do think it a bit much the way everything is somehow equated. I also think it tiresome the talk of good choices over and over again, it is like the stereotype that all fat people eat a ton. There are too many variables. Dh and I have lived frugally as well and have made *good* choices with our money as well. I don't think it does any good to compare either direction. To be jealous of those who make more or to be caught up in explaining about why you are just as worse off even though you make twice as much. We all have our own lives to live with and no one elses.

[Shellydon]

The vast majority of people who pay no taxes after all is said and done are the ones who can barely afford to feed their families. Would you really prefer that they pay the same tax rate as you, and end up homeless and/or starving?

 

 

The same tax RATE, yes. The same amount of taxes, no. If a person makes $200,000, they will pay $56,000 in federal income tax. They will then pay however many thousands in state income tax or property taxes. To me, taking 1/3 of someone's income is wrong. Do a 10% flat tax across the board.

[jessicalb]

I am dirt poor but happy with everything I need. :lol:

 

I love your post!

 

We are so ridiculously broke and my partner worries about that so much. But we have a roof! And enough to eat, mostly. And enough AC so we don't have to worry that any kids here are going to die of heat exhaustion, and a community of good friends, and a lovely view.

 

We are very, very lucky. Thank you for the reminder to keep this good attitude! :)

[justamouse]

The same tax RATE, yes. The same amount of taxes, no. If a person makes $200,000, they will pay $56,000 in federal income tax. They will then pay however many thousands in state income tax or property taxes. To me, taking 1/3 of someone's income is wrong. Do a 10% flat tax across the board.

 

You're reminding me. Don't remind me. We pay 15k in state property tax, I think another 7 in state income. We pay about 18-20k a year for food. That's not the mortgage, the utilities...

 

I need wine. That infuriates me.

[Shellers]

Dh is disabled and on medicare (not medicaid)...and he can't afford to go to the Dr....seriously. He can't get his pain medication because it requires that he go to the Dr. every month for the controlled drug prescription...so he's goes without. However, the two anti-depressants he takes for dealing with chronic pain are easily and cheaply obtained without return Dr. visits, so he lives on those. Health care is indeed in crisis.

 

That's really sad. :sad:

[Shellydon]

You're reminding me. Don't remind me. We pay 15k in state property tax, I think another 7 in state income. We pay about 18-20k a year for food. That's not the mortgage, the utilities...

 

I need wine. That infuriates me.

 

 

Yipes! 15k is a lot!!

[Munchkins_mama]

I don't know. I really think that having to worry every month about how the rent/mortgage is going to get paid, healthful food is going to get put on the table, utilities are going to stay on, and doctor's visits are going to be covered must make a big difference in quality of life, no? And I think having the ability to eat well and go to the doctor when issues are small prevent those smaller issues from becoming really big ones.

 

Our situation has never been bad enough for us to be on assistance, but when DH was bringing in $35K a year, things were pretty dang bleak around here. And that was in addition to my own part-time income!

 

You're right that those are not issues that people doing well off have to deal with. But, As far as marriage issues, misbehaving children, evil in-laws, rotten neighbors, unhappy job situations, etc, Money doesn't make those problems go away. I'm positive that the stress from worrying about feeding your family would make those things worse though.

 

Yeah, that is different. I don't buy expensive lipstick or anything like that. I don't really talk about spending stuff because I am frugal. I have had "friendships" that were just about common interest, and the kids, etc....but then I find out there is eye rolling and snickering going on when I am not there. It has happened when I tried to get friends together to quilt. I have a lot of fabric/supplies and tried to just share with friends. I tried to have a "raid my stash" kind of party and It turned in to gossip and I felt terrible. I knew they did not have a lot of extra money so I tried to just do something fun for holiday craft making together since I COULD buy the stuff.

 

Obviously I find the wrong people to be friends with, but it can be frustrating.

 

Since we are so blessed financially, I also try to share my stuff with others. I have a whole sewing room and fabric to share with others but I think people feel weird about it. Or they think I'm too, I don't know, something, to play with. I just really want to share my blessings with others! It has nothing to do with them being in a different 'class'. I'm totally ok with paying for my girlfriends to go out to dinner with me if they are having a tight month, just because I really want to go out.

 

 

 

 

Words of wisdom from my above mentioned single mom: "You don't have to have money to have class." One of the best lessons she taught me.

 

 

 

 

Awesome quote.

 

 

You're reminding me. Don't remind me. We pay 15k in state property tax, I think another 7 in state income. We pay about 18-20k a year for food. That's not the mortgage, the utilities...

 

I need wine. That infuriates me.

 

Yeah.

 

I think 10% across the board is perfect, It's not everyone paying the same $$$ amount, it's percentages people!!!

[Rosie_0801]

Yeah, that is different. I don't buy expensive lipstick or anything like that. I don't really talk about spending stuff because I am frugal. I have had "friendships" that were just about common interest, and the kids, etc....but then I find out there is eye rolling and snickering going on when I am not there. It has happened when I tried to get friends together to quilt. I have a lot of fabric/supplies and tried to just share with friends. I tried to have a "raid my stash" kind of party and It turned in to gossip and I felt terrible. I knew they did not have a lot of extra money so I tried to just do something fun for holiday craft making together since I COULD buy the stuff.

Obviously I find the wrong people to be friends with, but it can be frustrating.

 

They might be nasty people, or you might have committed a cultural faux pas.

 

Rosie

Edited August 31, 2012 by Rosie_0801
Was wayyyyy too wordy

[labst60]

I could be happy with the same percentage. :-)

 

I'm not sure why it shouldn't be the same amount - we all benefit the same from the gov't services, military, etc, right? And of course, if it WAS the same amount, it should be an amount that (nearly) every one can afford, not nearly $50k.

 

Take that amount - multiply it by the population = that equals the gov'ts budget.

 

Start from there with military and move in order of national importance. Things will get cut - that's for sure.

 

But people who have more always have the OPTION of making a donation to the goverment or private charity, right? And if the "people" don't "donate" enough to make it happen, then the "people" didn't really want that program enough to make it happen.

 

Reminds me of a story when I was about 9. I was shopping with my mom shortly after my birthday and I had some bday money from an uncle. Mom said I could get jeans but they had to be on sale. Of course, I found jeans I wanted sooooo bad, but they weren't on sale and kind of pricey compared to other pants there. She said, sure, you can get them. When we got up to the register and the lady gave us the total, my mom told me to pull out my birthday money. I remember TO THIS DAY how shocked I was. I didn't think **I** was going to have to pay for them! She looked at me and said "If it's not important enough for you to spend YOUR money on it, whey should I spend *my* money on it." Needless to say, Ididn't get the jeans and I learned a very important lesson that day.

 

It's really easy to spend *OTHER* people's money - a little tougher when it is your own!

[jennynd]

I could be happy with the same percentage. :-)

 

I'm not sure why it shouldn't be the same amount - we all benefit the same from the gov't services, military, etc, right? And of course, if it WAS the same amount, it should be an amount that (nearly) every one can afford, not nearly $50k.

 

!

 

That's a bit extreme. Some folks have problem to put food on the table as is. I will not expect most people pay same tax as I am. I am fine with same percentage with exception people under proverty.

I want to see gov restrict the write off from super rich. Warren Buffet himself said he paid less tax than his secretary. U know something is wrong in that picture

[-M-]

Threads like these can become rather fraught, no? My dad espoused the "No religion, politics, or money" policy when it came to conversation, and the older I get the more I think he had it right.

[labst60]

Jenny -

 

Like I said, I would be perfectly happy with a flat rate.

 

It's just when people start complaining about how "unfair"the flat rate it - it makes me wonder why *they* feel that they should get to decide that *my family* should pay so much more than *their family*, kwim?

 

It is true, we are not scraping for food and do enjoy certain "luxuries" (nice home, I stay home with the kids, cell phones, directv, etc). But, as it stands now, I would be willing to be that GOOD PERECENTAGE of the 50% not paying income tax CHOOSES to spend money on some of those "luxuries". I believe there are people just barely making it - and others who COULD pay some federal income taxes if the system were different (though they may need to forgo "luxuries" like cable, or cell phones, etc)

 

My point was more to illusrate that my family is NOT costing the federal governement or society more than theirs. A flat percentage seems like a fair compromise - but flat "amount" would truly be fair. Just like goign to a movie or an amusement park - there's one price to get in if you want to use the services, kwim?

 

But again, I'd be happy with a flat percentage. :001_smile:

[Lady Florida.]

The same tax RATE, yes. The same amount of taxes, no. If a person makes $200,000, they will pay $56,000 in federal income tax. They will then pay however many thousands in state income tax or property taxes. To me, taking 1/3 of someone's income is wrong. Do a 10% flat tax across the board.

 

 

I agree that taking 1/3 of your income is a lot. However, I'm not sure I like the idea of a flat tax. I've been reading about it on and off for several years and though it sounds fair in theory, it still hits lower income people harder. Ten percent of $40K IS more of a burden to a family than ten percent of $200K.

[justamouse]

Threads like these can become rather fraught, no? My dad espoused the "No religion, politics, or money" policy when it came to conversation, and the older I get the more I think he had it right.

 

Normally, I agree, but sometimes where people live is so insulating they really have no idea WHAT they are asking of the others in the country and what another's reality is.

 

Sheldon, my property taxes are cheap for here. There are houses just like mine, with property just like mine in more 'affluent' areas that pay up to 60k. The taxes were so high, they all had to take dives on their houses or people wouldn't buy them. The rich folk left NJ in droves a few years ago. Christie's been working hard to bring them back.

[jennynd]

Jenny -

 

Like I said, I would be perfectly happy with a flat rate.

 

It's just when people start complaining about how "unfair"the flat rate it - it makes me wonder why *they* feel that they should get to decide that *my family* should pay so much more than *their family*, kwim?

 

It is true, we are not scraping for food and do enjoy certain "luxuries" (nice home, I stay home with the kids, cell phones, directv, etc). But, as it stands now, I would be willing to be that GOOD PERECENTAGE of the 50% not paying income tax CHOOSES to spend money on some of those "luxuries". I believe there are people just barely making it - and others who COULD pay some federal income taxes if the system were different (though they may need to forgo "luxuries" like cable, or cell phones, etc)

 

My point was more to illusrate that my family is NOT costing the federal governement or society more than theirs. A flat percentage seems like a fair compromise - but flat "amount" would truly be fair. Just like goign to a movie or an amusement park - there's one price to get in if you want to use the services, kwim?

 

But again, I'd be happy with a flat percentage. :001_smile:

 

My good fortune of making the amount of money i am right now is because people spending money. If just the top 5 % able to have extra to spend money, can u imaging how bad will be the economy right now. I totally understand the feeling u Have that u have to pay more tax than other, I am at the top 5% and I drive a 10 yos car leaking oil, I know exactly what u are saying. however, at the same time, i thank God for the blessing and have no complain if I can help other family to put food on the table. That been said, there are people abuse the system, there are people buying drugs or "luxury" items with welfare or not paying tax and feel they are entitle to. I truly don't know what is the answer.

Flat tax rate with exception of the poor sounds good to me.:001_smile:

[kalanamak]

So is it just not possible to have friends in a totally different "money status" or whatever you would call that? Because I don't really see money as defining someone's class so much.

 

 

I am completely intimidated by luxury life-styles, and feel like a sweaty gym teacher in an itchy wool dress* whenever I'm in a house that screams money.

 

I tend to know people who are either too Bohemian to care that my towels have some frays or that my silverware doesn't match (I did break down and buy a set of eating utensils when I was nearly 50), or poor enough to know if it is clean, its great.

 

*the sweaty gym teacher bit is lifted from one of Betty MacDonald's memoirs.

[Frances]

An interesting study about money and happiness:

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/learnvest/2012/04/24/the-salary-that-will-make-you-happy-hint-its-less-than-75000/

 

I think the findings of the study have definitely held true for us. One of the happiest times in my adult life was when my husband was in grad school, my son was a baby, and we lived in university married family housing on his $1,000 monthly stipend. Although we made very little money, we were surrounded by families in similar (and worse) situations than our own from all over the world. We lived very simply but had a wonderful social life - all we had to do was walk out the door to see our friends. And we were still young and had lots of hope for the future, as we knew my husband's future degree would very likely lead to a good job. At that point in our lives there was something very freeing about only having enough money for the very basics.

 

In contrast, the next few years when he was doing a postdoc and starting his career were the worst times. Even though our income had substantially increased, we were surrounded by lots of older couples further along in their careers. Also, we were finally in a position to buy a house and unfortunately his best job offer was in an area that at the time was ranked in the top 25 in the nation for least affordable housing market (comparing median salary to median housing price).

 

As the study above discusses, reaching a certain income can increase happiness because it decreases financial stress. But how you feel about your income is also dependent on how you compare to others around you.

[Crimson Wife]

I am actually in favor of a progressive income tax, just one that isn't as ridiculously skewed as it is now.

 

When our income was 1/3 of the previous year's but our tax bill was 1/10, there is something pretty screwed up about that. Yes, we were better off in the good year and should have paid a higher percentage of our income but we were not THAT much better off such that we should've paid so much higher a percentage of our income in taxes. And had it not been for the AMT, I think our tax bill for the good year would've been fair (Turbotax shows us the calculation for what we would've owed minus the AMT and then what we actually were forced to pay). The AMT was originally designed for millionaires so it really burns me up that it is whacking us at a significantly lower income level (even in a good year we are nowhere remotely close to a seven figure income).

[mom31257]

I don't know how to answer. Dh is laid off from our school system and receives his last full paycheck tomorrow. He goes on unemployment soon. He is in school to get a computer diploma and change careers.

[SKL]

I agree that taking 1/3 of your income is a lot. However, I'm not sure I like the idea of a flat tax. I've been reading about it on and off for several years and though it sounds fair in theory, it still hits lower income people harder. Ten percent of $40K IS more of a burden to a family than ten percent of $200K.

 

But the things that taxes cover are necessities. A gallon of milk costs the same whether you're rich or poor. Why should taxes be different?

 

As people grow into adults, they should have the goal of producing enough earnings to cover their expenses plus a fair share of the common expenses of our country. Sure, there are odd circumstances that make this impossible, but it should be the default expectation.

 

I am OK with a flat tax, but I would not let the "poor" off the hook. If they don't make enough money to pay a tax, they should provide in-kind services instead.

 

Or if graduated rates are to continue, there should be an unlimited tax credit if you donate to charity. As long as the money is going to help people, what difference does it make how they pay for it?

[Mergath]

But the things that taxes cover are necessities. A gallon of milk costs the same whether you're rich or poor. Why should taxes be different?

 

As people grow into adults, they should have the goal of producing enough earnings to cover their expenses plus a fair share of the common expenses of our country. Sure, there are odd circumstances that make this impossible, but it should be the default expectation.

 

I am OK with a flat tax, but I would not let the "poor" off the hook. If they don't make enough money to pay a tax, they should provide in-kind services instead.

 

Or if graduated rates are to continue, there should be an unlimited tax credit if you donate to charity. As long as the money is going to help people, what difference does it make how they pay for it?

 

Let them off the hook? The only reason people like you and me can buy things so cheaply is because so many jobs in this country pay next to nothing. How much do you think that gallon of milk would cost if every grocery store in the country paid a living wage? How much do you think your home would cost if so many people- like my dh- didn't do the country's manufacturing work for wages barely above poverty level? How much would your food cost if farmers didn't have dirt cheap labor to go out and harvest it? Someone has to do all these jobs for very, very little so that we can have all our stuff so cheaply. You should be getting down on your hands and knees and thanking these people for their cheap labor, not sneering down your nose at them.

[Thea]

I am actually in favor of a progressive income tax, just one that isn't as ridiculously skewed as it is now.

 

When our income was 1/3 of the previous year's but our tax bill was 1/10, there is something pretty screwed up about that. Yes, we were better off in the good year and should have paid a higher percentage of our income but we were not THAT much better off such that we should've paid so much higher a percentage of our income in taxes. And had it not been for the AMT, I think our tax bill for the good year would've been fair (Turbotax shows us the calculation for what we would've owed minus the AMT and then what we actually were forced to pay). The AMT was originally designed for millionaires so it really burns me up that it is whacking us at a significantly lower income level (even in a good year we are nowhere remotely close to a seven figure income).

 

This happened to us.

 

My dh made 2.5x more than the previous year and we paid 4x more in taxes (I'm including both federal and state) because of the AMT.

[DawnM]

But then you have government involvement and it ends up as a tax anyway. Donate to a religious charity? Won't count? Don't want to donate to a non-religious charity because it supports things you don't agree with? Too bad, only that one counts.

 

And knowing the government, donating to charity would never be truly charity, it would go to operating costs, high salaries, etc.....

 

A gallon of milk costs you nothing if you are on government assistance (money wise.)

 

Dawn

 

 

But the things that taxes cover are necessities. A gallon of milk costs the same whether you're rich or poor. Why should taxes be different?

 

As people grow into adults, they should have the goal of producing enough earnings to cover their expenses plus a fair share of the common expenses of our country. Sure, there are odd circumstances that make this impossible, but it should be the default expectation.

 

I am OK with a flat tax, but I would not let the "poor" off the hook. If they don't make enough money to pay a tax, they should provide in-kind services instead.

 

Or if graduated rates are to continue, there should be an unlimited tax credit if you donate to charity. As long as the money is going to help people, what difference does it make how they pay for it?

[jennynd]

Let them off the hook? The only reason people like you and me can buy things so cheaply is because so many jobs in this country pay next to nothing. How much do you think that gallon of milk would cost if every grocery store in the country paid a living wage? How much do you think your home would cost if so many people- like my dh- didn't do the country's manufacturing work for wages barely above poverty level? How much would your food cost if farmers didn't have dirt cheap labor to go out and harvest it? Someone has to do all these jobs for very, very little so that we can have all our stuff so cheaply. You should be getting down on your hands and knees and thanking these people for their cheap labor, not sneering down your nose at them.

 

Which industry. I am bit surprised, because the few place I worked. (Auto industry, aircraft industry and energy), their manufacture get paid really well. I will agree with you without cheap labor, food will be substantially higher "HOWEVER", most US workers won't take those jobs anymore. They rather sit home taking welfare than do a hard labor works. I can't tell you how many times I saw farm owner said that they can not fill those job and forced to hire illegals.

 

 

Now, I do agree SKL to a extend. I have hard time to ask people who work hard but can't make ends meet to do extra works. HOWEVER I will like to see unemployed Welfare folks and or underworker by choice (work less than 40 hrs by choice) to work. But not in the sense as "punishment" I want to see the gov help to train and make deal with those and help them to find work and they are able to pay tax.

 

After world war II, during the recession, that was what Taiwan government did. They government see the unemployment rate and decided rather to give away money, the gov hired those to build road, build rails.

[Mama Geek]

I am completely intimidated by luxury life-styles, and feel like a sweaty gym teacher in an itchy wool dress* whenever I'm in a house that screams money.

 

I tend to know people who are either too Bohemian to care that my towels have some frays or that my silverware doesn't match (I did break down and buy a set of eating utensils when I was nearly 50), or poor enough to know if it is clean, its great.

 

*the sweaty gym teacher bit is lifted from one of Betty MacDonald's memoirs.

 

This is one of the things that we want to teach our dd...how to be comfortable around a wide variety of people and not to be intimidated by those who have more and not to be better than those who have less. We have friends and family with a wide range of economic statuses. The money doesn't matter, what matters is whether or not you can enjoy each others company and have fun together.

[Murphy101]

Frankly when I hear people who make double, triple or more than we do say how hard they have it and how they still have a hard time making ends meet - I want to just say screw it all and throw in the towel.

 

I'm not bitter about people making more money.

 

I'm bitter about people who keep saying everyone should pull themselves up by their bootstraps and yet completely ignoring that many people don't have boots.

 

I'm bitter about people who whine about foodstamps and EIC, but who refuse to acknowledge that welfare is cheaper than paying a living wage to every citizen for every job.

 

I'm bitter about people who want the government to help their neighbor, when it's the job of neighbors to help neighbors. That the government has to feed the hungry and comfort the sick at all is a sad statement of nation to live out the beatitudes and works of mercy. (which are usually considered good regardless of religious or lack of beliefs)

 

I'm bitter about big companies that don't give a rats patootie about their employees.

 

I'm bitter that if we work our selves into early graves, it still might not help our children to have a better life than we have had.

 

Money doesn't buy happiness, but it sure as hell helps. It buys freedom to make choices, that not having money denies many people. It just does.

[Remudamom]

I'm astonished that someone would ask this question and that anyone would answer it.

[mommaduck]

I'm astonished that someone would ask this question and that anyone would answer it.

:iagree: And all the judgments of what people "should do" etc....yeah, staying far away from reading the rest of this thread (only read page one and the last post). :glare:

[mommaduck]

Frankly when I hear people who make double, triple or more than we do say how hard they have it and how they still have a hard time making ends meet - I want to just say screw it all and throw in the towel.

 

I'm not bitter about people making more money.

 

I'm bitter about people who keep saying everyone should pull themselves up by their bootstraps and yet completely ignoring that many people don't have boots.

 

I'm bitter about people who whine about foodstamps and EIC, but who refuse to acknowledge that welfare is cheaper than paying a living wage to every citizen for every job.

 

I'm bitter about people who want the government to help their neighbor, when it's the job of neighbors to help neighbors. That the government has to feed the hungry and comfort the sick at all is a sad statement of nation to live out the beatitudes and works of mercy. (which are usually considered good regardless of religious or lack of beliefs)

 

I'm bitter about big companies that don't give a rats patootie about their employees.

 

I'm bitter that if we work our selves into early graves, it still might not help our children to have a better life than we have had.

 

Money doesn't buy happiness, but it sure as hell helps. It buys freedom to make choices, that not having money denies many people. It just does.

Okay, I had to read this.

 

Martha, I love you and Many Blessings to you!

[mommaduck]

Which industry. I am bit surprised, because the few place I worked. (Auto industry, aircraft industry and energy), their manufacture get paid really well. I will agree with you without cheap labor, food will be substantially higher "HOWEVER", most US workers won't take those jobs anymore. They rather sit home taking welfare than do a hard labor works. I can't tell you how many times I saw farm owner said that they can not fill those job and forced to hire illegals.

 

 

Now, I do agree SKL to a extend. I have hard time to ask people who work hard but can't make ends meet to do extra works. HOWEVER I will like to see unemployed Welfare folks and or underworker by choice (work less than 40 hrs by choice) to work. But not in the sense as "punishment" I want to see the gov help to train and make deal with those and help them to find work and they are able to pay tax.

 

After world war II, during the recession, that was what Taiwan government did. They government see the unemployment rate and decided rather to give away money, the gov hired those to build road, build rails.

No, they don't want to do back breaking labour that can ruin their health for less than minimum wage and no health insurance to protect them. Especially it the pay won't hardly cover rent or feed their families. They'd be homeless with a job.

[Kathryn]

Let them off the hook? The only reason people like you and me can buy things so cheaply is because so many jobs in this country pay next to nothing. How much do you think that gallon of milk would cost if every grocery store in the country paid a living wage? How much do you think your home would cost if so many people- like my dh- didn't do the country's manufacturing work for wages barely above poverty level? How much would your food cost if farmers didn't have dirt cheap labor to go out and harvest it? Someone has to do all these jobs for very, very little so that we can have all our stuff so cheaply. You should be getting down on your hands and knees and thanking these people for their cheap labor, not sneering down your nose at them.

 

:iagree: My DH used to be in manufacturing also. He made slightly above minimum wage. My father kept talking about the manufacturing jobs where he lived tht made double or triple minimum wage. That's just not the case in a lot of areas. Then his factory closed and he was laid off. At first, all he found was stocking grocery shelves, so that's what he did. He then worked nights at UPS part-time which gave us health insurance and painted houses during the day while going to school for a technical degree. When he finished school, he was again making barely above minimum wage in his new field, but with much greater opportunity for advancement. He now brings home enough that we make more than half of American households. There were many years we didn't pay taxes and I'm glad. I'm glad to pay them now that we're doing better financially, although things are still very tight for us with the student loan debt we both are carrying. And I'm much happier now that we don't have quite so much worry over paying bills and making ends meet.

 

Frankly when I hear people who make double, triple or more than we do say how hard they have it and how they still have a hard time making ends meet - I want to just say screw it all and throw in the towel.

 

I'm not bitter about people making more money.

 

I'm bitter about people who keep saying everyone should pull themselves up by their bootstraps and yet completely ignoring that many people don't have boots.

 

I'm bitter about people who whine about foodstamps and EIC, but who refuse to acknowledge that welfare is cheaper than paying a living wage to every citizen for every job.

 

I'm bitter about people who want the government to help their neighbor, when it's the job of neighbors to help neighbors. That the government has to feed the hungry and comfort the sick at all is a sad statement of nation to live out the beatitudes and works of mercy. (which are usually considered good regardless of religious or lack of beliefs)

 

I'm bitter about big companies that don't give a rats patootie about their employees.

 

I'm bitter that if we work our selves into early graves, it still might not help our children to have a better life than we have had.

 

Money doesn't buy happiness, but it sure as hell helps. It buys freedom to make choices, that not having money denies many people. It just does.

 

:iagree: people who have never lived near or below the poverty line don't understand. People who have had the good fortune to pull themselves up from there often can't understand those who don't have the skills, know-how, health, etc., to pull themselves out. There is no magic formula that everyone can follow. Our country depends on having low-paid, unskilled and semi-skilled workers. Many of these people cannot escape their income level and will always have huge levels of stress permeate their lives because of a lack of money for good foods, healthcare, paying bills, etc.

[Mrs Mungo]

Let them off the hook? The only reason people like you and me can buy things so cheaply is because so many jobs in this country pay next to nothing. How much do you think that gallon of milk would cost if every grocery store in the country paid a living wage? How much do you think your home would cost if so many people- like my dh- didn't do the country's manufacturing work for wages barely above poverty level? How much would your food cost if farmers didn't have dirt cheap labor to go out and harvest it? Someone has to do all these jobs for very, very little so that we can have all our stuff so cheaply. You should be getting down on your hands and knees and thanking these people for their cheap labor, not sneering down your nose at them.

 

Which industry. I am bit surprised, because the few place I worked. (Auto industry, aircraft industry and energy), their manufacture get paid really well. I will agree with you without cheap labor, food will be substantially higher "HOWEVER", most US workers won't take those jobs anymore. They rather sit home taking welfare than do a hard labor works. I can't tell you how many times I saw farm owner said that they can not fill those job and forced to hire illegals.

 

Re-read these two posts. You actually made an argument affirming the post you were trying to disagree with! If there were no illegals to work the farm, then the farmer would have to raise wages to a living wage (more than people make from welfare) in order to get his crop harvested, which would raise prices of food. That is *exactly* the point Mergath was making!!

[SKL]

Let them off the hook? The only reason people like you and me can buy things so cheaply is because so many jobs in this country pay next to nothing. How much do you think that gallon of milk would cost if every grocery store in the country paid a living wage? How much do you think your home would cost if so many people- like my dh- didn't do the country's manufacturing work for wages barely above poverty level? How much would your food cost if farmers didn't have dirt cheap labor to go out and harvest it? Someone has to do all these jobs for very, very little so that we can have all our stuff so cheaply. You should be getting down on your hands and knees and thanking these people for their cheap labor, not sneering down your nose at them.

 

Actually I've worked in factory and supermarket jobs etc. and I've also earned at or below minimum wage, especially when you figure in the number of hours I worked for no extra pay. I know exactly what it feels like to come home after a long shift of standing on my feet in a hot factory with my hair and pores full of itchy fiberglass. It feels GOOD! There's nothing like a good day's work. Especially if that work happens to be volunteer work.

 

It feels good to pull your own weight. There is NOTHING wrong with asking a citizen to contribute toward services he receives. How has someone convinced you that there is LESS dignity in contributing than in getting a free ride?

[Mergath]

Actually I've worked in factory and supermarket jobs etc. and I've also earned at or below minimum wage, especially when you figure in the number of hours I worked for no extra pay. I know exactly what it feels like to come home after a long shift of standing on my feet in a hot factory with my hair and pores full of itchy fiberglass. It feels GOOD! There's nothing like a good day's work. Especially if that work happens to be volunteer work.

 

It feels good to pull your own weight. There is NOTHING wrong with asking a citizen to contribute toward services he receives. How has someone convinced you that there is LESS dignity in contributing than in getting a free ride?

 

It feels slightly less good when you realize that the money you've earned from that hard days work won't cover both rent and food.

[jennynd]

Re-read these two posts. You actually made an argument affirming the post you were trying to disagree with! If there were no illegals to work the farm, then the farmer would have to raise wages to a living wage (more than people make from welfare) in order to get his crop harvested, which would raise prices of food. That is *exactly* the point Mergath was making!!

I did not realize when Mergath indicated that we should thank those low wage workers, she is refer to illegals?? :confused:

That is totally another issue. I will MUCH RATHER pay more to US worker who willing to work than illegal immigrants. The problem is.. they don't

[cin]

70% of you make more than we do. I am officially depressed for the evening. This is with me working weekends, plus dh's full-time work. Ugh.

 

:grouphug:

 

 

Just remember the cost of living, hon. If we lived in some places, our comfortable mid-west income wouldn't pay for housing. The DC area, San Francisco, and, I believe Boston, are very expensive areas. And we would starve.

[Mergath]

I did not realize when Mergath indicated that we should thank those low wage workers, she is refer to illegals?? :confused:

That is totally another issue. I will MUCH RATHER pay more to US worker who willing to work than illegal immigrants. The problem is.. they don't

 

The illegal migrant workers are the only ones who will work for so little pay as to keep our food prices low. You might be willing to pay more so that farmers can afford to hire legal workers, but most people aren't (though they'll happily complain about illegal workers whenever they have the chance).

[cin]

:iagree: people who have never lived near or below the poverty line don't understand. People who have had the good fortune to pull themselves up from there often can't understand those who don't have the skills, know-how, health, etc., to pull themselves out. There is no magic formula that everyone can follow. Our country depends on having low-paid, unskilled and semi-skilled workers. Many of these people cannot escape their income level and will always have huge levels of stress permeate their lives because of a lack of money for good foods, healthcare, paying bills, etc.

 

That bolded part--I have heard from several places that soon there will be a major shortage of blue collar and trade jobs, such as plumbers, carpenters, etc. because everyone should 'go to college'. Our country is almost like Vietnam. People who work in the fields there wear long sleeves and long pants because if you have a suntan, it indicates that you are lower class. Everybody wants to be part of the upper class, but we need the blue collar to support the upper class. Somebody has to build the mansions ;)

[jennynd]

The illegal migrant workers are the only ones who will work for so little pay as to keep our food prices low. You might be willing to pay more so that farmers can afford to hire legal workers, but most people aren't (though they'll happily complain about illegal workers whenever they have the chance).

You are paying those illegals others ways. You do know that.

You pay more insurance because of them (all the free ER visit), you pay more tax because of them (Go to school for free). Let alone the crime they brought. Just just because they are cheaper, Does not make illegal ok.

 

Again, you going back to the issue that there are jobs, but people "choice" not to take it.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I did not realize when Mergath indicated that we should thank those low wage workers, she is refer to illegals?? :confused:

That is totally another issue. I will MUCH RATHER pay more to US worker who willing to work than illegal immigrants. The problem is.. they don't

 

They don't because the jobs don't pay enough to feed and house their families and provide health benefits. If someone takes a low-paying job that doesn't feed or house their families, they usually lose all their benefits--benefits that actually DO feed and house their families. Often, those jobs are temporary and subject to cuts in hours based on injuries (which are frequent) and the needs/whims of the employers, who hold all the power.

 

If you had benefits that fed your kids and enabled you to go to the doctor when they were sick and helped you to put a roof over their heads, would you give those up based on principle for a backbreaking farm/manufacturing job that offered no healthcare, no job security, a good likelihood of on-the-job injury, probably involved 10-12-hour days, and was entirely dependent on the farmer/harvest/weather, etc.?

 

Yes, there's dignity in hard work. But there's no SENSE in it when taking it will make your family far worse off economically.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Actually I've worked in factory and supermarket jobs etc. and I've also earned at or below minimum wage, especially when you figure in the number of hours I worked for no extra pay. I know exactly what it feels like to come home after a long shift of standing on my feet in a hot factory with my hair and pores full of itchy fiberglass. It feels GOOD! There's nothing like a good day's work. Especially if that work happens to be volunteer work.

 

It feels good to pull your own weight. There is NOTHING wrong with asking a citizen to contribute toward services he receives. How has someone convinced you that there is LESS dignity in contributing than in getting a free ride?

 

Did you have children when you worked these jobs, or were you only responsible for yourself?

[Mrs Mungo]

Actually I've worked in factory and supermarket jobs etc. and I've also earned at or below minimum wage, especially when you figure in the number of hours I worked for no extra pay. I know exactly what it feels like to come home after a long shift of standing on my feet in a hot factory with my hair and pores full of itchy fiberglass. It feels GOOD! There's nothing like a good day's work. Especially if that work happens to be volunteer work.

 

It feels good to pull your own weight. There is NOTHING wrong with asking a citizen to contribute toward services he receives. How has someone convinced you that there is LESS dignity in contributing than in getting a free ride?

 

Wow. How can you compare volunteer work with people doing that job and not getting paid enough to feed and house their family? Who do you think is living on easy street while getting a free ride? Never mind. I am clearly wasting my time.

 

I did not realize when Mergath indicated that we should thank those low wage workers, she is refer to illegals?? :confused:

That is totally another issue. I will MUCH RATHER pay more to US worker who willing to work than illegal immigrants. The problem is.. they don't

 

Mergath was referring to all kinds of low-paid workers. Americans don't take jobs that don't pay enough to feed a family in the US versus sending that money back to Mexico. *Plenty* of Americans on assistance work. Many of them more than one job. They are still below the poverty line and still qualify for assistance. Do you honestly not understand that?