Family income poll

[stripe]

It might be useful to compare WTM responses to national averages. The median household income is $51,914.

 

 

I also have observed that those making over $100,000 generally tend to try to downplay their income, talking about the high cost of living, their expenses, how large their families are, and their other problems, as if Mrs Jane American, with income at the national median, lives in the middle of Cheapsville, where everything is magically inexpensive. Poor people live in Chicago, DC, and Los Angeles. The median household income in Chicago in 2006-2010 was $46,877. In LA in 2010, $49,138. In DC, $58,526. Really, millions of poor people survive in cities. Poor people have family sizes bigger than one person, too. Poor people are not just being handed wads of cash by the government. If they are given tax breaks, so are the wealthy, who can deduct mortgages, and who usually have a skilled accountant managing their finances. So, I have to say, there is nothing "wrong" per se with having a higher income, but those members on here who are in the 75% of Americans whose households earn under $85,000, or the 90% who make under $125,000, really find it a bit hard to believe that only those in the top income range have financial problems.

 

Anyway here is a chart of state averages by size of families:

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/medincsizeandstate10.xls

[Murphy101]

Thanks stripe!

[ocelotmom]

:iagree: Dh took a significant pay cut when we moved from SF to TX, but we have a much more comfortable life here despite adding two dc to the family.

 

Similar here. I get paid a lot less here than I would where we moved from, but we can afford much more in terms of land/housing here.

[DianeW88]

That chart was interesting. So, if I'm understanding it correctly (statistics was not my best college class :lol:), they're saying that the more family members you have, the more money you earn? Or I guess that people don't have more kids if they can't afford them. Or am I missing something entirely? LOL

 

We're above the average income in Utah for a five person family, and my dh is the only wage earner (I don't count my kid's jobs...that's their own personal income, it doesn't go to pay for any family expenses). Are they assuming two wage earners in the poll or are they just saying, "here's the average family income"?

[Kathryn]

Thanks stripe!

 

Yes, for the chart, and for saying what I'd been trying to figure out how to correctly word.

[butterflymommy]

I also have observed that those making over $100,000 generally tend to try to downplay their income, talking about the high cost of living, their expenses, how large their families are, and their other problems, as if Mrs Jane American, with income at the national median, lives in the middle of Cheapsville, where everything is magically inexpensive. Poor people live in Chicago, DC, and Los Angeles.

 

According to the poll less than 20% here are living below the median household income, so the board definitely skews middle class. As far as the top tax bracket complaining about financial problems-- in my case I'm more trying to point out that we're not swimming in excess. DH works 7 days a week, 2 jobs, 12+ hour days mon-thurs. We drive one beat up van. Worry about health insurance costs every year (our premiums went up 30% in one year alone). And while plenty of poor people live in NYC, they are eligible for any number of benefits that people making over X amount are not, ranging from subsidized housing to privately funded vouchers for private school.

 

I believe about 2% of households in the US have an income of 250k or more. But within that 2% is HUGE variation. A private jet and yacht are as far away from me as they are from someone in the projects.

[QueenCat]

Are they assuming two wage earners in the poll or are they just saying, "here's the average family income"?

 

It doesn't look like they're assuming either, from the way I read it, it's the household income, regardless of whether there is one or two primary income makers.

[SKL]

...those members on here who are in the 75% of Americans whose households earn under $85,000, or the 90% who make under $125,000, really find it a bit hard to believe that only those in the top income range have financial problems.

 

 

I didn't get the impression that anyone was saying that. Just that if you note my reportable income as being, say, 3x someone else's, that doesn't mean I have access to 3x as much stuff or that person only has a third of the access I have.

 

There are many people whose government-funded benefits actually make them better off than some who work full-time at a "living wage." Government-funded benefits don't figure into those median income figures, nor do payments to the government aka numerous layers of taxation.

 

That's the whole point of the "progressive" tax system, right?

 

Anyhow, I'm not sure why these discussions always seem to turn into a hate-fest. Why is it important to compare what different people have? How come we don't do the same when it comes to IQ, physical strength, and so on? I guess it's because, theoretically, you can't take part of my IQ and redistribute it. :glare:

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

DH makes a good salary right now, but it varies year to year, and we live in a high COL area. I don't feel like we're scraping by, but I feel like we're tighter than we should be given his income, and definitely tighter than I want to be! We don't take expensive vacations (only short trips to the local beach or family trips to the Outer Banks where the cost is shared across a lot of people), have 10-year-old, paid off cars, and an older, smaller home that's mostly outdated (and no money to do even small upgrades), and I use cash envelopes. We did buy me a new laptop recently when it became obvious that it would cost nearly as much to repair and upgrade my old one, but expenditures like that are rare.

 

It's one of my great frustrations these days :( I try to keep remembering that we have more than a lot of people do these days, and that I am blessed to have what I do have and be where I am.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Sweet Morning Air

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

How come we don't do the same when it comes to IQ, physical strength, and so on? I guess it's because, theoretically, you can't take part of my IQ and redistribute it. :glare:

 

Actually, I think it's because those things are not so easily quantifiable. I'd love a poll on our IQs, but I don't even remember what mine is (and have no desire to get tested again). How would one quantify physical strength?

[SKL]

Poor people are not just being handed wads of cash by the government. If they are given tax breaks, so are the wealthy, who can deduct mortgages, ....

 

No. The mortgage deduction (which is actually for the interest only, and interest rates are fairly low nowadays, especially if you have good credit) phases out well below that $250K level. So do all the usual deductions and credits families take.

Edited August 30, 2012 by SKL

[justLisa]

Actually, I think it's because those things are not so easily quantifiable. I'd love a poll on our IQs, but I don't even remember what mine is (and have no desire to get tested again). How would one quantify physical strength?

 

 

Well I can squat an impressive amount :lol:

[Carrie12345]

No. The mortgage deduction (which is actually for the interest only, and interest rates are fairly low nowadays, especially if you have good credit) phases out well below that $250K level. So do all the usual deductions and credits families take.

 

Our tax lady advised us to adjust our withholdings this year b/c our interest vs. principle is ready to shift enough to throw off our carefully planned tax balance. So it isn't even like it's some big 30 year credit, lol. We've owned our house for 7 years and are way, way under a $250k income. The tax benefit is relatively small and shrinks along the way.

[Guest]

We've made roughly half in the years since 2008 than in years prior, just from economic changes (weak construction market). The COL in this area is fairly high. We have gotten by mostly on low overhead and little debt (only a car loan).

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

We're appreciative of our comforts, but it's difficult to avoid thinking about how rich we'd feel if we had learned some lessons much earlier!

 

Right there with you, Carrie. One of the lessons I learned is to talk to my kids about finances and not tell them, "It's none of your business!" :glare:

 

Well I can squat an impressive amount :lol:

 

:smilielol5:

[SKL]

How would one quantify physical strength?

 

That might be a fun thread, now that I think about it. ;)

[Munchkins_mama]

I'm sure this is going to get me flamed...

 

I don't understand why some people who make less money, or are having hard times are so bitter and angry towards people who are not struggling. :confused:

 

We live in a LCOL area. My husband makes really good money for this area and we have made good financial choices for our whole married lives. We are blessed to be thriving. We have three kids, and I stay home and homeschool them. I do credit it with the fact that we've never used credit cards and that when we were young, we looked into fields that my husband would enjoy AND that would give us a comfortable family life with only one income. We bought the smallest house in our range that would fit our family instead of what THEY said we could afford and we drive old cars instead of shiny ones.

 

I don't feel the need to downplay the financial choices we've made so we don't seem higher income. ( I am completely aware that the economy could fall here again and we could be left jobless. What we have on our side is that we've saved and saved and saved so that we can survive for a year with NO income. We are incredibly fortunate enough to have the ability to do that, and the money smarts to know how.)

 

Stop trying to make people who've made good choices in their lives feel bad. :glare:

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Stop trying to make people who've made good choices in their lives feel bad. :glare:

 

Not everyone who is struggling financially has made bad choices. :confused:

[Upward Journey]

I'm sure this is going to get me flamed...

 

I don't understand why some people who make less money, or are having hard times are so bitter and angry towards people who are not struggling. :confused:

 

We live in a LCOL area. My husband makes really good money for this area and we have made good financial choices for our whole married lives. We are blessed to be thriving. We have three kids, and I stay home and homeschool them. I do credit it with the fact that we've never used credit cards and that when we were young, we looked into fields that my husband would enjoy AND that would give us a comfortable family life with only one income. We bought the smallest house in our range that would fit our family instead of what THEY said we could afford and we drive old cars instead of shiny ones.

 

I don't feel the need to downplay the financial choices we've made so we don't seem higher income. ( I am completely aware that the economy could fall here again and we could be left jobless. What we have on our side is that we've saved and saved and saved so that we can survive for a year with NO income. We are incredibly fortunate enough to have the ability to do that, and the money smarts to know how.)

 

Stop trying to make people who've made good choices in their lives feel bad. :glare:

 

We made good choices, lived debt free, had a huge savings acct., and the recession bit us in the butt. In the the past 4 years we've had to move twice, weathered under and unemployment and our savings is gone. I am a bit bitter, I won't deny it. Sometimes life is just :tongue_smilie: and "good choices" just aren't enough. There's luck involved as well.

[Firefly]

COL in my part of Connecticut is high. Property taxes are ridiculously high. We're near the upper upper end and make enough to live comfortably, but not extravagantly, as we try to live within our means. DH spent two years unemployed in our recent past so I don't take it for granted-- we're very lucky.

[TranquilMind]

Have we done one of these before? People often have stereotypes of homeschoolers as being either fairly well off or scraping to make ends meet. I'm curious what the reality is for WTMers.

 

There is a poll coming. I'm not asking you to post your income with your name!:svengo:

 

Edited to add that I know that household income doesn't necessarily say much about how well off a family is, especially since the cost of living varies so widely from place to place. Please comment on your area's COL.

Who are you? The IRS?

 

;)

 

You'll need a warrant for that information.

[Munchkins_mama]

Not everyone who is struggling financially has made bad choices. :confused:

 

We made good choices, lived debt free, had a huge savings acct., and the recession bit us in the butt. In the the past 4 years we've had to move twice, weathered under and unemployment and our savings is gone. I am a bit bitter, I won't deny it. Sometimes life is just :tongue_smilie: and "good choices" just aren't enough. There's luck involved as well.

 

I know! And I'm sorry I can't figure out a way to say it differently. I know some people just have had rough patches and it doesn't work out well. What I don't understand is the comments with such bitterness against people who haven't had it rough. :confused: We went through lean years, we used our emergency funds, we were just fortunate enough to get out of it and prepare well for future lows.

 

This is such a sensitive topic that it's never going to come across well. :(

[Georgiana Daniels]

I don't think anyone here is trying to make others feel bad for their choices. This is simply the kind of topic where people can perhaps vent a little because their personal frustrations are relevant to the discussion.

[DianeW88]

I'm sure this is going to get me flamed...

 

I don't understand why some people who make less money, or are having hard times are so bitter and angry towards people who are not struggling. :confused:

 

We live in a LCOL area. My husband makes really good money for this area and we have made good financial choices for our whole married lives. We are blessed to be thriving. We have three kids, and I stay home and homeschool them. I do credit it with the fact that we've never used credit cards and that when we were young, we looked into fields that my husband would enjoy AND that would give us a comfortable family life with only one income. We bought the smallest house in our range that would fit our family instead of what THEY said we could afford and we drive old cars instead of shiny ones.

 

I don't feel the need to downplay the financial choices we've made so we don't seem higher income. ( I am completely aware that the economy could fall here again and we could be left jobless. What we have on our side is that we've saved and saved and saved so that we can survive for a year with NO income. We are incredibly fortunate enough to have the ability to do that, and the money smarts to know how.)

 

Stop trying to make people who've made good choices in their lives feel bad. :glare:

 

You shouldn't feel guilty or feel like you have to apologize for being financially successful. I don't. It's a tremendous blessing, and I'm VERY grateful, and I also know it could all end tomorrow. We do try and plan for a rainy day, and I think we've done that rather well. My dh went to school, got a great education in a field he KNEW would earn him a good living and enable me to stay at home, since that was one of his goals...to have a wife who could be home with his kids. I'm so thankful for his planning and foresight. We also decided to settle in an area with a lower cost of living so that our salary and benefits would go further. I also chose a marketable degree and could go back to work at a moment's notice if need be. I do work part time when my former employer calls and needs help and I enjoy that tremendously (plus, it keeps my license current :lol:).

 

Nobody has the same life situation and we shouldn't be judgemental or envious of those who seem to have it "better" than we do. Even though I consider my family to be financially blessed, I can always find someone (lots of someones :lol:) who have substantially more. And they're good people, with great hearts and generous spirits, and I don't begrudge them one penny of their hard earned money. Not to mention, envy just makes you small...and I think it tends to make people less prosperous in life. Maybe it's karma, I don't know, but I've seen it happen over and over to people. The more you begrudge others the fruits of their labor, the less you end up having for yourself.

[nono]

Hey, we had years where we could check the high income box. We're currently living off our savings as we regroup into the next phase of our lives, and can check the bottom box.

 

I don't begrudge $1 of anyone making a good living. GOOD FOR YOU!!!!! I don't begrudge $1 of anyone living off assistance when they need it. :grouphug: FOR YOU!

 

What I don't like are cheats on either end. And I don't believe the majority of folks in either case are. And, for those who are, that's their issue, not mine.

 

And for anyone ever snagged by AMT, I think it's time we get real with the second amendment. ;)

[TranquilMind]

Munchkins_mama: My husband makes really good money for this area and we have made good financial choices for our whole married lives. We are blessed to be thriving. We have three kids, and I stay home and homeschool them. I do credit it with the fact that we've never used credit cards and that when we were young, we looked into fields that my husband would enjoy AND that would give us a comfortable family life with only one income. We bought the smallest house in our range that would fit our family instead of what THEY said we could afford and we drive old cars instead of shiny ones.

 

 

We've done all this too.

 

don't feel the need to downplay the financial choices we've made so we don't seem higher income. ( I am completely aware that the economy could fall here again and we could be left jobless. What we have on our side is that we've saved and saved and saved so that we can survive for a year with NO income. We are incredibly fortunate enough to have the ability to do that, and the money smarts to know how.)

 

That's impressive. We have not accomplished that yet. Though, if we could unload rentals, maybe we have. The market isn't good though, yet.

 

Stop trying to make people who've made good choices in their lives feel bad.

 

 

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but my goal is to try to take good advice where I find it. If someone else is doing something more successfully than I am, I want to hear about it!

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

This is such a sensitive topic that it's never going to come across well. :(

 

You are right, and that really goes for both sides. I understand what you're saying, because if I told you what my DH's income is for this year, you'd laugh at me. Yet, I'm still finding myself having to save change to pay for the (cheap, short) vacation we committed to in September, pull money out of our savings every month (instead of adding to it), put off having a cracked tooth repaired in order to pay for ER costs for my kidney, pay an extra $350 a month on our mortgage for a year because they messed up our escrow amount when we made the smart decision to refinance, etc. It's frustrating, and yeah, it contributes to sour grapes sometimes.

 

I don't think anyone here is trying to make others feel bad for their choices. This is simply the kind of topic where people can perhaps vent a little because their personal frustrations are relevant to the discussion.

 

:iagree: x 100. I don't feel any animosity toward people who are doing well financially. I'm just frustrated that we've worked so hard to get where we are too, and yet it still feels like sand slipping through our fingers. (And of course I'm speaking only for myself here.)

 

ETA: Still, though, you won't convince me that anyone spending $290 on a designer paper bag is anything but an idiot! :lol:

Edited August 30, 2012 by Sweet Morning Air

[SKL]

...envy ... tends to make people less prosperous in life. Maybe it's karma, I don't know, but I've seen it happen over and over to people. The more you begrudge others the fruits of their labor, the less you end up having for yourself.

 

:iagree: Yes, absolutely! I know this from living it as well.

 

As long as we feel / act like "abundance" is limited, ours will be limited.

 

It's one thing to go through seasons of hardship and seasons of prosperity. It's another to adopt a personal religion against the prosperity of some other person or group, in worship of the god of "poor me."

[delaney]

Right there with you, Carrie. One of the lessons I learned is to talk to my kids about finances and not tell them, "It's none of your business!" :glare:

 

 

 

:smilielol5:

 

I totally agree. We have had to be very honest at times with the kids. When the economy crashed we lost quite a bit 2 years in a row. We are now trying to dig out of that and we are honest with them. We also take this as an opportunity to point out how lucky they are to have as much as they do have and to look around very carefully before they complain.:001_smile:

[Shellers]

.... ETA: Then there is the tax thing. At dh's level of income we are getting hit by 28% tax. I can only imagine what the over $250,000 crowd is getting hit with.

 

We pay about the same tax rate. We are also paying $1,500 a month for health insurance. :confused: We pay so much for health insurance that we can hardly afford to go to the doctor.

[Laura Corin]

Stop trying to make people who've made good choices in their lives feel bad. :glare:

 

Are you assuming that people who are in a difficult situation have made bad choices? We have always lived on much less that comparable people in Husband's industry. We are now living partly on our savings because Husband was made redundant.

 

Should you feel bad? No. Should you assume that those in bad situations have made bad choices? No.

 

Laura

[Munchkins_mama]

You shouldn't feel guilty or feel like you have to apologize for being financially successful. I don't. It's a tremendous blessing, and I'm VERY grateful, and I also know it could all end tomorrow. We do try and plan for a rainy day, and I think we've done that rather well. My dh went to school, got a great education in a field he KNEW would earn him a good living and enable me to stay at home, since that was one of his goals...to have a wife who could be home with his kids. I'm so thankful for his planning and foresight. We also decided to settle in an area with a lower cost of living so that our salary and benefits would go further. I also chose a marketable degree and could go back to work at a moment's notice if need be. I do work part time when my former employer calls and needs help and I enjoy that tremendously (plus, it keeps my license current :lol:).

 

Nobody has the same life situation and we shouldn't be judgemental or envious of those who seem to have it "better" than we do. Even though I consider my family to be financially blessed, I can always find someone (lots of someones :lol:) who have substantially more. And they're good people, with great hearts and generous spirits, and I don't begrudge them one penny of their hard earned money. Not to mention, envy just makes you small...and I think it tends to make people less prosperous in life. Maybe it's karma, I don't know, but I've seen it happen over and over to people. The more you begrudge others the fruits of their labor, the less you end up having for yourself.

 

I too know that we are incredibly blessed and fortunate to have this situation. Thank you for being kind.

 

You are right, and that really goes for both sides. I understand what you're saying, because if I told you what my DH's income is for this year, you'd laugh at me. Yet, I'm still finding myself having to save change to pay for the (cheap, short) vacation we committed to in September, pull money out of our savings every month (instead of adding to it), put off having a cracked tooth repaired in order to pay for ER costs for my kidney, pay an extra $350 a month on our mortgage for a year because they messed up our escrow amount when we made the smart decision to refinance, etc. It's frustrating, and yeah, it contributes to sour grapes sometimes.

 

 

 

:iagree: x 100. I don't feel any animosity toward people who are doing well financially. I'm just frustrated that we've worked so hard to get where we are too, and yet it still feels like sand slipping through our fingers. (And of course I'm speaking only for myself here.)

 

ETA: Still, though, you won't convince me that anyone spending $290 on a designer paper bag is anything but an idiot! :lol:

 

The paper bag is ridiculous! I agree. :tongue_smilie:

[Mergath]

I know! And I'm sorry I can't figure out a way to say it differently. I know some people just have had rough patches and it doesn't work out well. What I don't understand is the comments with such bitterness against people who haven't had it rough. :confused: We went through lean years, we used our emergency funds, we were just fortunate enough to get out of it and prepare well for future lows.

 

This is such a sensitive topic that it's never going to come across well. :(

 

I don't think it's bitterness in general that struggling families feel. I think it's more that many people who are making six-figure salaries often say, "Well, we're struggling too, we aren't any better off in the end." Back when we were living on about twelve grand a year and I heard/read things like that, my thinking was, "Hey, I don't begrudge you your money, but don't try to downplay how soul-crushingly hard it is to live in poverty, either." Because no matter how much you pay in taxes or how much your mortgage payment is, it IS much harder to live on $20,000 a year than $200,000, no matter where you live.

[Munchkins_mama]

Are you assuming that people who are in a difficult situation have made bad choices? We have always lived on much less that comparable people in Husband's industry. We are now living partly on our savings because Husband was made redundant.

 

Should you feel bad? No. Should you assume that those in bad situations have made bad choices? No.

 

Laura

 

No. I thought I tried to cover that. There are people who make stupid choices. They have good incomes, but they also have iPhones, cable, shiny cars, and fancy houses. When the market crashes or the economy drops out, these people are screwed and bitter. There are also people who work their arses off and never get ahead, all the while living as smart as possible. What I'm saying is that People who HAVE made good choices, and haven't had financial hard times shouldn't feel like they have to defend themselves or downplay their good fortune. I'm not ASSuming anything.

[SKL]

I don't think it's bitterness in general that struggling families feel. I think it's more that many people who are making six-figure salaries often say, "Well, we're struggling too, we aren't any better off in the end." Back when we were living on about twelve grand a year and I heard/read things like that, my thinking was, "Hey, I don't begrudge you your money, but don't try to downplay how soul-crushingly hard it is to live in poverty, either." Because no matter how much you pay in taxes or how much your mortgage payment is, it IS much harder to live on $20,000 a year than $200,000, no matter where you live.

 

I think it's a chicken-and-egg thing. Why do the $200K people feel the need to say "we're struggling too"? Because they feel envy directed at them. Why do people making $20K feel the need to compare themselves to someone making $200K in the first place? Why the expectation that the $200K family should feel guilty for having more than the $20K family?

 

I know where some of it comes from. Education. People are taught that the correct response to "inequality" (including the fact that my rough season is not at the same time as yours) is anger, outrage, and sometimes violence.

[Georgiana Daniels]

I don't think it's bitterness in general that struggling families feel. I think it's more that many people who are making six-figure salaries often say, "Well, we're struggling too, we aren't any better off in the end." Back when we were living on about twelve grand a year and I heard/read things like that, my thinking was, "Hey, I don't begrudge you your money, but don't try to downplay how soul-crushingly hard it is to live in poverty, either." Because no matter how much you pay in taxes or how much your mortgage payment is, it IS much harder to live on $20,000 a year than $200,000, no matter where you live.

 

:iagree:

[Mergath]

I know where some of it comes from. Education. People are taught that the correct response to "inequality" (including the fact that my rough season is not at the same time as yours) is anger, outrage, and sometimes violence.

 

I wasn't ever taught that. :confused:

[SKL]

I wasn't ever taught that. :confused:

 

Have you led a sheltered existence? It is certainly taught, though sometimes it's couched more as an "excuse" than a goal.

[Mergath]

Have you led a sheltered existence? It is certainly taught, though sometimes it's couched more as an "excuse" than a goal.

 

Not particularly, but most people I know don't consider anger, outrage, and/or violence to be the appropriate response to someone having more money than they do. I don't consider violence to be a good response to any situation.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Have you led a sheltered existence? It is certainly taught, though sometimes it's couched more as an "excuse" than a goal.

 

I think you are generalizing very, very, very broadly.

[Kathryn]

No. I thought I tried to cover that. There are people who make stupid choices. They have good incomes, but they also have iPhones, cable, shiny cars, and fancy houses. When the market crashes or the economy drops out, these people are screwed and bitter. There are also people who work their arses off and never get ahead, all the while living as smart as possible. What I'm saying is that People who HAVE made good choices, and haven't had financial hard times shouldn't feel like they have to defend themselves or downplay their good fortune. I'm not ASSuming anything.

 

:iagree: it's the attitude of the haves, as if the have-nots could have it all too if they would have followed their formula. But, oh, it's really hard to make twice, 5x, 10x what others make.

[SKL]

Not particularly, but most people I know don't consider anger, outrage, and/or violence to be the appropriate response to someone having more money than they do. I don't consider violence to be a good response to any situation.

 

I agree. I said "some of it." But there is an undercurrent of the anger/outrage culture which does affect society as a whole. The fact is that for most of us, it does not / should not matter at all if the guy down the street has bigger toys. And yet it rarely fails to be noticed and discussed.

[Kathryn]

I think it's a chicken-and-egg thing. Why do the $200K people feel the need to say "we're struggling too"? Because they feel envy directed at them. Why do people making $20K feel the need to compare themselves to someone making $200K in the first place? Why the expectation that the $200K family should feel guilty for having more than the $20K family?

 

I know where some of it comes from. Education. People are taught that the correct response to "inequality" (including the fact that my rough season is not at the same time as yours) is anger, outrage, and sometimes violence.

 

We're comparing because everyone's figures are here in the same thread. I don't see anyone saying someone should feel guilty. As for the last paragraph, WHAT?

 

I think you are generalizing very, very, very broadly.

 

:iagree:

[Starr]

I think it's a chicken-and-egg thing. Why do the $200K people feel the need to say "we're struggling too"? Because they feel envy directed at them. Why do people making $20K feel the need to compare themselves to someone making $200K in the first place? Why the expectation that the $200K family should feel guilty for having more than the $20K family?

 

I know where some of it comes from. Education. People are taught that the correct response to "inequality" (including the fact that my rough season is not at the same time as yours) is anger, outrage, and sometimes violence.

 

Wow, just wow, tell me you don't mean it. :svengo:

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't think it's bitterness in general that struggling families feel. I think it's more that many people who are making six-figure salaries often say, "Well, we're struggling too, we aren't any better off in the end." Back when we were living on about twelve grand a year and I heard/read things like that, my thinking was, "Hey, I don't begrudge you your money, but don't try to downplay how soul-crushingly hard it is to live in poverty, either." Because no matter how much you pay in taxes or how much your mortgage payment is, it IS much harder to live on $20,000 a year than $200,000, no matter where you live.

 

I understand. My parents are solidly working class to this day. My dad was completely screwed out of retirement by a corporate decision fueled by pure greed. My parents will be working until they cannot work any more. Then, dh and I will probably be helping them out and they will be living off of their savings (which, for their income, is fairly substantial).

 

But, I think it is more than that. There have been many, many, many conversations here about how people are responsible for their own bad decisions or "how dare someone on food stamps buy a cake mix for their kid's birthday" or implying that people on assistance are just lazy and living off the rich. There are *several* of those sentiments implied in some of the posts from this very thread.

 

Examples:

People are taught that the correct response to "inequality" (including the fact that my rough season is not at the same time as yours) is anger, outrage, and sometimes violence.

 

It's another to adopt a personal religion against the prosperity of some other person or group, in worship of the god of "poor me."

 

I guess it's because, theoretically, you can't take part of my IQ and redistribute it. :glare:

 

So, I can see why people in the lower incomes, especially those on various forms of assistance would start to feel resentment toward people constantly putting them down.

[SKL]

But, I think it is more than that. There have been many, many, many conversations here about how people are responsible for their own bad decisions or "how dare someone on food stamps buy a cake mix for their kid's birthday" or implying that people on assistance are just lazy and living off the rich. There are *several* of those sentiments implied in some of the posts from this very thread.

 

1) Actually, it wasn't about cake mix (that was like a year ago), it was about someone using food stamps to purchase an expensive, custom-decorated cake, which many/most people (on assistance or not) would consider an extravagance.

 

2) None of my comments that you quoted had anything to do with assistance. They had to do with jealousy. You don't have to be on public assistance to be jealous.

 

3) I've been poor. I haven't forgotten what it is or what it feels like. It still has nothing to do with what my neighbor has or doesn't have.

 

Examples:

....

 

So, I can see why people in the lower incomes, especially those on various forms of assistance would start to feel resentment toward people constantly putting them down.

 

4) I put nobody down, except for the people who pander to and encourage jealousy.

Edited August 30, 2012 by SKL

[2squared]

No. The mortgage deduction (which is actually for the interest only, and interest rates are fairly low nowadays, especially if you have good credit) phases out well below that $250K level. So do all the usual deductions and credits families take.

 

We live in a lower income area, and our house is accordingly priced. We don't qualify for the mortgage deduction either. Guess that benefit is for the people in the middle. :001_smile:

[Mrs Mungo]

1) Actually, it wasn't about cake mix (that was like a year ago), it was about someone using food stamps to purchase an expensive, custom-decorated cake, which many/most people (on assistance or not) would consider an extravagance.

 

I have been posting on these boards for many, many years and have seen MANY of those threads. I wasn't referring strictly to your comments on such "extravagances."

 

2) None of my comments that you quoted had anything to do with assistance. They had to do with jealousy. You don't have to be on public assistance to be jealous.

 

3) I've been poor. I haven't forgotten what it is or what it feels like. It still has nothing to do with what my neighbor has or doesn't have.

 

4) I put nobody down, except for the people who pander to and encourage jealousy.

 

I think those quotes *do* put down people in lower incomes. You're accusing them of plotting violence against you because you have more. How can it NOT be a put down? Nobody is pandering to or encouraging jealously. You've clearly missed some threads, if you think I am doing that. I just don't think it's fair to tar everyone with the same brush and point fingers of "redistribution." *NOBODY* in the US does without government. NOBODY.

[justamouse]

I don't think it's bitterness in general that struggling families feel. I think it's more that many people who are making six-figure salaries often say, "Well, we're struggling too, we aren't any better off in the end." Back when we were living on about twelve grand a year and I heard/read things like that, my thinking was, "Hey, I don't begrudge you your money, but don't try to downplay how soul-crushingly hard it is to live in poverty, either." Because no matter how much you pay in taxes or how much your mortgage payment is, it IS much harder to live on $20,000 a year than $200,000, no matter where you live.

 

I think we say that because people who live with less automatically think that more money makes problems go away, or that more $ makes life easier. Which is actually showing what an idol money can be.

 

It doesn't. Your kid still going to jail is your kid still going to jail. Questioning your marriage, and health issues are still horrible. Money doesn't equal good and decent kids, a loving marriage, or the gift of health. It doesn't make you a happy person. I know many really rich people who are soul crushingly miserable that you could offer me millions and I wouldn't take their life.

 

I've lived on WIC and foodstamps. I know the difference. I'm happier now because *I* am more happy with myself now, my life, my children and my marriage. I've made huge internal and outward changes in the philosophy of our lives to make that happen, it had nothing to do with $, and everything to do with me.

[justamouse]

Maybe you do, maybe you don't. They could be living in LA, Chicago, NYC and Washington, D.C. with 8 kids. That money isn't going far.

 

ETA: Then there is the tax thing. At dh's level of income we are getting hit by 28% tax. I can only imagine what the over $250,000 crowd is getting hit with.

 

:iagree: