After Miquon?

[Farrar]

Okay, this got so long probably no one will reply.

 

As we started Yellow, I realized our days with Miquon were numbered. Alas. I guess I've got time, but I'd potentially like to start weaving in a little bit of whatever we switch to by winter and I expect we'll be done with Miquon by some time in spring. I think I'd feel better if I had a plan - a destination to be getting ready for.

 

There have been threads about this before, but after reading several, none of them quite satisfied me with an answer.

 

The main things that work about Miquon for my ds don't seem to be replicated in many programs. It's spiral and does not demand mastery at all. I really need a program that leads a kid into conceptual thinking in a completely non-threatening way. With Miquon, it's easy to jump around to a new topic when something isn't working. And it's also easy to know that if a kid doesn't get something now, we'll come back to it later in new ways. We have also really continued to make use of the C-rods and been really hands on with math.

 

I don't see Singapore or MM working for him. We've done the CWP a year behind grade level (he's just starting the second grade one now) but I don't think SM overall will work for him and I know he found MM overwhelming and stressful. The way that MM wants you to really get it freaks him out, I know. My poor bundle of anxiety.

 

Kitchen Table Math might be good... except it didn't work for me as a teacher and I know I need the touchstone of some sort of student book. I tried to do some of it, but it wasn't the right format for me to teach. Ditto Right Start. We do the RS card games, which I love, but RS as an overall program is so scripted and teacher intense in a way that doesn't suit me as a teacher.

 

We did MEP 1a in first grade, but it was a big flop and lots of tears so we didn't do 1b and switch to MM (it worked for one kid, but not for this one and he eventually switched to Miquon). I was looking at grade 3 and thinking it was stuff he could probably do now (except for metric measurement and Roman numerals, which we have only ever covered in the most vague way) and it might be better for us now, but that first grade experience has me hesitant. It's definitely spiral, but is it spiral enough? If we let something go because it's making him crazy that day, will he have missed it or will it be covered again? One of the things that was hard about MEP is that they like to throw in these hard problems, you know, for fun. Not so fun for my ds.

 

Other options? Something I've not considered?

 

Whine. Why can't Miquon go on forever? I want a Miquon Pink and a Miquon Mauve and a Miquon Black (for ninja math) and a Miquon Navy (for conquering other math programs)...

[deerforest]

I use Rightstart in a very non scripted way. I basically use it as a teaching manual for me and then present it to DD. I often skip and combine info/sections. It was really the first thing that popped into my mind.

[VA6336]

It's not an actual curriculum, but we love Khan Academy.

[dbmamaz]

You could always consider taking a year off of curriculum and going living math? LOF elementary? You know i havent been there at all . . . but maybe in another year he'll be braver?

[nicklepede]

Have you considered Math on the Level? It seems to allow for jumping around to whatever skill is appropriate at the time. (Note: I haven't used it personally, but I looked into it once, so I have no useful experience to offer...)

[Zoo Keeper]

Not really an *answer* for you, but some thoughts...

 

I was looking over Miquon purple and MEP 3B tonight; we were supposed to finish them last year, but it didn't happen. We're hopping back on the horse again in less than a week. I really, really like the both of them. I love how MEP has this slow, wide spiral of concepts--you plug along and see ten lessons later why you were doing ___ activity. With the activities/questions in the Teacher's Notes, it builds sooo well.

 

And the problems that make your son break out into a cold sweat? I make my guys chew on it for 10 min. If they don't get it, we drop it and come back later in the day. Knowing there was a limit helped them work harder in the time they had, because they knew it wasn't endless struggle with no chance of reward. I'm trying to help my boys learn persistence in problem solving, and not always just to get the answer as quickly as possible. MEP does not expect that every student is going to be able to do every problem; some of the stuff is there for advanced students to chew on. There have been problems we skipped. No biggie.

 

MEP aside, my boys have been using this with the c-rods; not Miquon, but fun and stretching...

[FO4UR]

So you've read my past threads...:glare: and :grouphug:

 

 

 

 

We are using Singapore. I just go more freely through...spiraling what needs spiraling as I go. (I might have him do 1/2 page on "ugh" chapters, and move along meanwhile.) (Blinders are on to any pressure to math systematically, methodically, or efficiently. We are messy mathers.)

 

 

CWP - Ramp up a level, and plan on only doing one problem out of the book per day. Treat as a discovery method problem. ds9 thrives on this. "How can we find _____?" and "What parts of the problem do we already know?" (jotting down his thoughts as he talks it out - until he grabs the pencil from my hand)

 

 

I have a book that shows how to teach all sorts of concepts with C Rods. I, honestly, don't get it out much.

 

I have Kitchen Table Math. I refer to these. There is much overlap if you've used Miquon.

 

I have Strayer-Upton. This is NOTHING like Miquon:tongue_smilie:, but there are things that I really like about the book. I pull practice problems from this book often. Mine has trouble memorizing x facts, and following the S-U practice problems seems to help with that. It also eases my mind that he isn't forgetting things as we progress along in Singapore. (It is easy work, and you can decide how much is enough. kwim)

 

 

We also utilize Khan Academy videos. I like his explanation of long division. My ds gets division...and can figure many problems out in his head simply to avoid having to do long division...but he needs to see it done over and over again, frequently.

 

 

 

 

And finally, I have AOPS Pre-Algebra on the shelf...I have started the book for myself and I'm diligently working until the day he's ready to tackle it.

 

 

 

JAWM - Beast Academy should have been a link between Miquon & AOPS. They should have started with 4th grade. My life would have been p.e.r.f.e.c.t!!!!:lol:

 

 

 

RE MM: MM is the antithesis of Miquon. MM gives bite size pieces already chewed up for the student, which is GREAT for kids who like to be fed their math. Miquon gives a big hunk of meat and asks the child to figure out how to feed himself with this thing we call a knife and fork. Being spoon fed (ala MM) after having felt the satisfaction of cutting one's own meat (ala Miquon) produces :banghead: feelings. Both programs have their places, but I would not recommend MM to a Miquon lover, or visa versa.

[besroma]

Would MEP work if you used it at a level that did not frustrate him to get him more comfortable with MEP, to build confidence, and for fluency (maybe 2 instead of 3)?

 

I am not sure if it would work for you, but we like Primary Grade Challenge Math and Visible Thinking in Mathematics (Singapore) as supplements.

 

I agree with the RS recommendation. You can do so much with the concepts once you learn the approach. You can read over the lesson, then do it your way. On days I am extremely busy, I get out the abacus, base ten blocks, tally sticks, and place value cards and create a lesson of my own as I am moving around doing other things. They learn so much, even on those days. One of the things they enjoy the most is building towers out of the base ten blocks, then adding them up and telling me the number, which they replicate with the other manipulatives. Very non-threatening, very fun, and very effective. :001_smile:

 

I know what you mean about Miquon navy, etc. Miquon is amazing! We had a very smooth transition from Miquon to RS.

[Alte Veste Academy]

And finally, I have AOPS Pre-Algebra on the shelf...I have started the book for myself and I'm diligently working until the day he's ready to tackle it.

 

JAWM - Beast Academy should have been a link between Miquon & AOPS. They should have started with 4th grade. My life would have been p.e.r.f.e.c.t!!!!:lol:

 

RE MM: MM is the antithesis of Miquon. MM gives bite size pieces already chewed up for the student, which is GREAT for kids who like to be fed their math. Miquon gives a big hunk of meat and asks the child to figure out how to feed himself with this thing we call a knife and fork. Being spoon fed (ala MM) after having felt the satisfaction of cutting one's own meat (ala Miquon) produces :banghead: feelings. Both programs have their places, but I would not recommend MM to a Miquon lover, or visa versa.

 

I agree with you on all counts, but especially how perfect it would have been for BA to start with 4th grade or for them to just put it out faster. Whip-sha illustrators!! You don't need a life!!! Get back to work!!!!

 

Miquon lovers here who also love SM and all things AoPS. I might give BA a try in your shoes, if the samples appeal to him. There is a problem-solving, puzzle aspect to the approach.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Alte Veste Academy

[deerforest]

I think BA is awesome and we use it too but it doesn't have that spiral aspect. We also use Math in Focus which she likes more than she did Singapore. Singapore and MM have been failures for us. I know that it seems strange but I do use elements from RS, Math in Focus, BA and tons of living math stuff. I just noticed your blog about people who use so many programs, but this combo works for us. DD had a mental block regarding math a year ago and we got through it by pulling in content and perspectives from different sources.

[Soror]

 

I have Kitchen Table Math. I refer to these. There is much overlap if you've used Miquon.

 

 

 

JAWM - Beast Academy should have been a link between Miquon & AOPS. They should have started with 4th grade. My life would have been p.e.r.f.e.c.t!!!!:lol:

 

 

 

As a RS user I don't know I clicked this thread but I want to say- JAWM I think BA should link RS and AoPS :) I'm in a similiar place to the OP but with RS. I see the days are numbered and I'm hoping perhaps we can transition into BA and then to AoPS, we will see how it goes though. We are on 3rd Grade Math now though so in a bit luckier spot in that regard, depending on their release dates.

 

We tried MM here year before last and it was a pretty epic fail. I do have the Kitchen Table Math books and need to be reading them again for some good living math ideas, the kids love that stuff.

[Gentlemommy]

:lurk5:We use and LOVE Miquon...currently we are also doing MEP. Since we school year round, I'm hoping we can get through both curriculums this year. :001_huh:Honestly, I'm always wondering what people choose after Miquon as well. I like MEP, but it would be great to have something just like miquonto go on to. Dd is doing 2nd grade now, so maybe next year I'll switch her to BA, and by the time she is in 4th grade, that level will be out...wishful thinking lol.

[A home for their hearts]

Have you considered Math on the Level? It seems to allow for jumping around to whatever skill is appropriate at the time. (Note: I haven't used it personally, but I looked into it once, so I have no useful experience to offer...)

 

:iagree:

 

This is what I was going to suggest to. I haven't used it either but it looks yummy! ;)

[Farrar]

Ooh, lots of good replies and food for thought and I really want to reply to them all, but am sitting with my phone and no other method! Drat. We somehow arrived half an hour early for our coop hike. I'm not sure if should be happy that we made great time on a long drive or what.

 

I keep resisting BA even though I like the basic idea, but I'll give that more thought. And RS too, though I literally recoiled the first time I saw a box of RS. What level would be right? D? E?

 

Is MOTL really significantly different in style from Kitchen Table Math?

Edited August 29, 2012 by farrarwilliams

[boscopup]

I'm wondering if Life of Fred would work for him, especially if you really play with the concepts taught.

[Spy Car]

You may have to create your own hybrid of different elements, Miquon-style.

 

Most of the "usual suspects" as far as resources go have been mentioned, but let me add a few more:

 

1) While it may not help so much for 3rd Grade, the Key to...series (fractions, decimals, algebra, etc.) was written and published by the Steve Rasmussen, the son of Miquon author Lore Rasmussen, and the style is similar.

 

2) If you search for "School Mathematics Study Group" you will find all the Teacher and Student textbooks produced by the SMSG, a group of progressive math educators in the 1960s. This is the best of "New Math." the materials are very much in the style and spirit of Miquon. I believe the digital archive is at the University of Buffalo. I believe there is the full program K-12.

 

ETA: Here is a link to the Buffalo State archive, the materials can also be found elsewhere. I also want to credit board member "Wapiti" for making me aware of these materials in a past thread:

 

http://ceure.buffalostate.edu/~newmath/SMSG/SMSGTEXTS.html

 

CSMP (Comprehensive School Mathematics Program) is another "New Math" program you could check out. I had to "drop out" of CSMP for lack of time, and it strikes me as harder to implement than the SMSG materials.

 

3) The Ed Zaccaro books (we have enjoyed Primary Grade Challenge Math) are a way to change gears and work on "advanced" topics in ways that are very well explained and graded in difficulty.

 

 

Creating your own hybrid approach is a lot more work than just picking one resource and trudging through. But given what you've said it might be your best option.

 

My last thought is that, like Paula, I have been working through the AoPS Prealgebra book myself. I am constantly struck at how much it reminds me of Miquon's Lab Annotations. I have been pulling out topics to explore with my 3rd Grader in a Miquon style. It is not a book I would throw at a 3rd Grader to do alone—no way—but it has inspired Math Lab activities and makes for deposits my teaching-knowledge bank.

 

Best wishes.

 

Bill

Edited August 29, 2012 by Spy Car

[Violet Crown]

 

1) While it may not help so much for 3rd Grade, the Key to...series (fractions, decimals, algebra, etc.) was written and published by the Steve Rasmussen, the son of Miquon author Lore Rasmussen, and the style is similar.

 

Agreeing with Bill, except that we started Key To with two second-graders with no ill effects.

 

Also, it sounds like you like the 'thread' aspect of Miquon. Key To is basically the same. We start it when a child is on the fifth Miquon book, and begin with Key To Fractions and KT Geometry simultaneously. We add in the other 'threads' (KT series) when the time seems right. Basically we follow the European model of multiple concurrent areas of math, continuing this with AoPS; after finishing KT Algebra, we started Middle Girl concurrently with AoPS Prealgebra, Algebra, Geometry, Counting, and Probability, and are progressing through them all slowly, taking a break from one when we hit a wall and going to another.

 

We kept up arithmetic (i.e. number-crunching speed and accuracy) for both girls, as a completely separate subject, through the Key To series and through AoPS (or "proto-AoPS" in Great Girl's case). IMO that's a necessary supplement to the math of both KT and AoPS.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Sharon in Austin

[Spy Car]

Agreeing with Bill, except that we started Key To with two second-graders with no ill effects.

 

 

Certainly not harmful. I like the "Key to..." books. Maybe just not the typical progression for Third Grade, but then again a Miquon kid would not be on a "typical" path anyway.

 

Bill

[FO4UR]

:lurk5:We use and LOVE Miquon...currently we are also doing MEP. Since we school year round, I'm hoping we can get through both curriculums this year. :001_huh:Honestly, I'm always wondering what people choose after Miquon as well. I like MEP, but it would be great to have something just like miquonto go on to. Dd is doing 2nd grade now, so maybe next year I'll switch her to BA, and by the time she is in 4th grade, that level will be out...wishful thinking lol.

 

That will probably work out well for you. If mine were a bit younger, I'd go with BA.

 

 

 

Is MOTL really significantly different in style from Kitchen Table Math?

 

 

I've never used MOTL...just researched it to death.:tongue_smilie: The price tag is significantly different. I've read that the actual *work* in MOTL is not the deep conceptual work you found in Miquon or will find in something like BA/AOPS. The appeal - to me - of MOTL is the organization. I like the idea of 5-a-days, and having a system in place to make sure that you are covering what needs covering - reviewing what needs reviewing, etc... But, knowing that I'd still be (probably) finding *work* out of different materials to keep them challenged, I cannot justify the cost. If I ever find MOTL super-cheap, I'd probably pick it up...but I'm not spending my math $$$ on it. That said, I am basically putting together my own math program out of materials I have...basically doing it like MOTL, only less organized I'm sure. (My ds9 is 2e - and it shows in math. He needs this. My other 2 do just fine with Singapore as written, with Miquon and other supp as desired.)

 

 

 

 

I have a growing collection of books like this. I find them used - and they are typically pretty old - many are OOP. The book I linked is very worthwhile if you can find it, and perfect for post-Miquon. Search used book stores in your area.

 

 

TOPS Get a Grip is fun (if you can stand lentils in your house).

[Farrar]

Also, it sounds like you like the 'thread' aspect of Miquon. Key To is basically the same. We start it when a child is on the fifth Miquon book, and begin with Key To Fractions and KT Geometry simultaneously. We add in the other 'threads' (KT series) when the time seems right. Basically we follow the European model of multiple concurrent areas of math, continuing this with AoPS; after finishing KT Algebra, we started Middle Girl concurrently with AoPS Prealgebra, Algebra, Geometry, Counting, and Probability, and are progressing through them all slowly, taking a break from one when we hit a wall and going to another.

 

Oh, yes! I guess I didn't think of them being used that way. I had seen people suggest them, and I knew they had the same publisher as Miquon, but I don't think I realized Lore Rassmussan was involved in their creation. I think they'll probably be too much for my ds at the end of the year - I'm sure he'll have more skills to work on with division, for example. But doing that might be perfect for fifth grade math - so a year after we finish Miquon... I'm going to keep that in mind.

 

 

2) If you search for "School Mathematics Study Group" you will find all the Teacher and Student textbooks produced by the SMSG, a group of progressive math educators in the 1960s. This is the best of "New Math." the materials are very much in the style and spirit of Miquon. I believe the digital archive is at the University of Buffalo. I believe there is the full program K-12.

 

ETA: Here is a link to the Buffalo State archive, the materials can also be found elsewhere. I also want to credit board member "Wapiti" for making me aware of these materials in a past thread:

 

http://ceure.buffalostate.edu/~newmath/SMSG/SMSGTEXTS.html

 

CSMP (Comprehensive School Mathematics Program) is another "New Math" program you could check out. I had to "drop out" of CSMP for lack of time, and it strikes me as harder to implement than the SMSG materials.

 

3) The Ed Zaccaro books (we have enjoyed Primary Grade Challenge Math) are a way to change gears and work on "advanced" topics in ways that are very well explained and graded in difficulty.

 

Thanks for that link, Bill! I had seen the CSMP materials and they gave me some sort of elementary school flashback (I'm pretty sure we did some bits of that program when I was a kid, alongside a more traditional main program) but I couldn't see myself teaching it. But I had not seen the SMSG materials and I like the look of those. That looks very teachable to me and I like that it jumps around and has different topics and so forth.

 

I have some of the Ed Zaccaro stuff. I saw him speak at a conference and he was an excellent speaker. I liked how he approached math and I'm looking forward to using more of his materials for supplements.

 

I've never used MOTL...just researched it to death.:tongue_smilie: The price tag is significantly different. I've read that the actual *work* in MOTL is not the deep conceptual work you found in Miquon or will find in something like BA/AOPS. The appeal - to me - of MOTL is the organization. I like the idea of 5-a-days, and having a system in place to make sure that you are covering what needs covering - reviewing what needs reviewing, etc... But, knowing that I'd still be (probably) finding *work* out of different materials to keep them challenged, I cannot justify the cost. If I ever find MOTL super-cheap, I'd probably pick it up...but I'm not spending my math $$$ on it. That said, I am basically putting together my own math program out of materials I have...basically doing it like MOTL, only less organized I'm sure. (My ds9 is 2e - and it shows in math. He needs this. My other 2 do just fine with Singapore as written, with Miquon and other supp as desired.)

 

I have a growing collection of books like this. I find them used - and they are typically pretty old - many are OOP. The book I linked is very worthwhile if you can find it, and perfect for post-Miquon. Search used book stores in your area.

 

 

TOPS Get a Grip is fun (if you can stand lentils in your house).

 

Thanks for that about MOTL. I think my gut was right that it's not what I want - especially at that price tag.

 

And the individual C-rods books look cool. I think I had a couple along those lines when I was teaching remedial middle school math. And the lentils. Oy. I'm starting to think you're not really a homeschooler until you've done something involving lentils.

 

Okay, I'm getting more of a set of possibilities. Maybe Beast Academy. Maybe SMSG. Maybe MEP. And good things to supplement with and to consider for down the road. Ah. Okay, now I feel like there are possibilities instead of just dead ends. I'm still going to whine that there should be more Miquon though. Even just one more year's worth!

 

Thanks, y'all. :001_smile:

[FO4UR]

 

 

I'm still going to whine that there should be more Miquon though. Even just one more year's worth!

 

 

 

Oh, I'm right there with 'ya.:iagree:

[K&Rs Mom]

When my older finished Miquon, she did Janice VanCleave's Math for Every Kid - mostly for my peace of mind because it hit some topics Miquon doesn't, and to fill in some time, and it was just fun. Then she did the business-simulation from Simply Charlotte Mason (ran a pretend bookstore) for a few weeks (supposed to be a weekly class but she did it daily so it didn't take long), to solidify any arithmetic gaps. From there she started Life of Fred, and my plan is to stay with Fred through highschool, supplementing with Khan and Key To as needed.

[stripe]

2) If you search for "School Mathematics Study Group" you will find all the Teacher and Student textbooks produced by the SMSG, a group of progressive math educators in the 1960s. This is the best of "New Math." the materials are very much in the style and spirit of Miquon. I believe the digital archive is at the University of Buffalo. I believe there is the full program K-12.

 

ETA: Here is a link to the Buffalo State archive, the materials can also be found elsewhere. I also want to credit board member "Wapiti" for making me aware of these materials in a past thread:

 

http://ceure.buffalostate.edu/~newmath/SMSG/SMSGTEXTS.html

 

 

Yeah, I was just hunting down the URL for this for you, Farrar. I did parts of Y3 with my son between years 2 and 3 of MEP. He really liked graphing.

 

The main site is http://ceure.buffalostate.edu/%7Enewmath/index.html

 

For anyone interested in y3, here's a file error i found

 

I found that the link for Unit 57 of "Mathematics for the Elementary School" (for year 3 part 2) is wrong at http://ceure.buffalostate.edu/~newmath/SMSG/SMSGTEXTS.html. It links to Unit 54.

 

I located this unit (in a fairly bad quality scan) at ERIC, here.

 

I also observed in at least one book (year 3??) that the book, after it finishes, repeats, backwards. So don't blindly print off the entire 400+ page file. Check it.

 

[Five More Minutes]

Whine. Why can't Miquon go on forever? I want a Miquon Pink and a Miquon Mauve and a Miquon Black (for ninja math) and a Miquon Navy (for conquering other math programs)...

:lol: Oh, that made me laugh!

[Emerald Stoker]

nm