Planning for accelerated children and getting into college

[momma2three]

Why not? In my previous line of work, which was of a more intellectual nature than other types of jobs (i.e. some combination of IQ and hard mental work were extremely important), it happened all the time. The Local Random College resume would end up in the trash, while the Selective School resume would get a call back. (eta, I don't know enough about UMass to say for certain, even though I lived in Boston for four years myself :tongue_smilie:, but when I was choosing people for interviews, tier mattered immensely)

 

My understanding is that a good GPA in a good major from U Mass Amherst is not going to close any doors. It's a major state university in the US, I don't think I'd classify it as 'local random college.' The satellite branches are less prestigious, but it depends on the hiring area.

[slackermom]

My understanding is that a good GPA in a good major from U Mass Amherst is not going to close any doors. It's a major state university in the US, I don't think I'd classify it as 'local random college.' The satellite branches are less prestigious, but it depends on the hiring area.

 

If the hiring area is Boston, someone saying they attended UMass is assumed to mean Amherst, and there is some respect for that, but there is a big drop in perceived value for a degree from one of the other campuses.

Edited August 27, 2012 by slackermom
typo

[momma2three]

If the hiring area is Boston, someone saying they attended UMass is assumed to mean Amherst, and there is some respect for that, but there is a big drop in perceived value for a degree from one of the other campuses.

 

Yes, i agree with this. Of course, I'm from Boston, so when I said U Mass in the original post that's what I meant :)

 

I do think even U Mass Lowell is a thousand steps above a for profit college, though, in the eyes of a recruiter. Depending on the area, and certainly on work experience.

 

I don't have any experience with U Mass Lowell, but I took classes at U Mass Boston for a semester and almost everyone was a part time student, and many were returning students/adult learners. I think most people don't see it as a top choice for a traditional four-year, ages 18-21 college experience. I had good experiences there, but it is certainly not where I would be aiming for an accelerated, bright student to be getting a diploma from.

[melmichigan]

 

FWIW, part of me is questioning whether or not EPGY or CTY courses might have been a better fit for ds this yr. He really wanted to get to know professors IRL and is hoping that he might be able to find one to mentor him as he enters more competitions, etc. (last yr he entered a competition w/1000s of entries and received an honorable mention. I didn't understand anything he wrote, so even though students were allowed to teacher feedback, he didn't receive any. He has higher hopes for this yr if he can get a prof to answer questions and give minor assistance.)

 

:bigear: We are considering Northwestern's CTD for Honors and AP science beginning next year. It's more expensive but I'm thinking it might be more worthwhile because of the caliber of kids.

[a27mom]

I think tier of university/name of university really depends on your major and career plans. The state university I live near has an excellent theater program, I can name several very famous people who went there, and are known for their acting skill as much as their celebrity for being "stars". So in many theater/TV circles a degree from there will help you get auditions. However a pre-med degree from there won't necessarily help you get in to med school.

 

I went to a second tier school. My degree didn't require or benefit from a 1st tier, ( I'm a Physical therapist). But the school I went to had one of the premier industrial engineering programs in the country, in that field the school name was first tier.

 

This would be a concern with unnecessary accellaration (I am sure sometimes it is the only option) If your 12 or 14 y/o doesn't know for certain what they want to do it seems depth and breadth would serve them better, than an extra college degree they may not use.

[melmichigan]

double post, sorry

[Allearia]

Since this topic has morphed quite a bit from the OP, I thought I would throw out what our path is ending up being. My older ds is radically accelerated in classical languages, so that gives him a lot of mental stimulation in something he loves and can pursue at a college level, while continuing with "regular" acceleration in math, science, etc. At this point I am still planning on him going to college at the normal age of 18, with doing college classes during high school and maybe some travel or a gap year until he gets to that age. If it changed and he really needed full early college I would consider it but right now I am pretty happy with the way this has ended up, even though it wasn't something I thought of ahead of time.

[regentrude]

the vast, vast majority of the bright and "high achieving" (i.e., having success in whatever chosen field) people that my DH and I know attended selective or highly selective schools. The more intellectual the field, the more possible value that can be added to the resume via the education component. (When I was practicing law, I selected people to interview, and schools were very important, even for experienced lawyers.)

 

Actually, this varies tremendously between disciplines. Law, along with medicine, is one of the areas where it matters most which school you graduated from. I am in physics, and there it hardly plays a role; when we interview for positions, the number of publications and grants is what counts, the school name is immaterial. And in order to be admitted to graduate school, the GRE scores are the deciding factor. We sometimes have brilliant students who had been admitted to an Ivy and who choose to attend out state University for financial reasons; they will ace the GRE and get into a great grad school without having a fancy school name on their undergraduate degree.

Edited August 27, 2012 by regentrude

[kiana]

Actually, this varies tremendously between disciplines. Law, along with medicine, is one of the areas where it matters most which school you graduated from. I am in physics, and there it hardly plays a role; when we interview for positions, the number of publications and grants is what counts, the school name is immaterial. And in order to be admitted to graduate school, the GRE scores are the deciding factor. We sometimes have brilliant students who had been admitted to an Ivy and who choose to attend out state University for financial reasons; they will ace the GRE and get into a great grad school without having a fancy school name on their undergraduate degree.

 

BUT, while this is true -- be sure you're attending a sufficiently good state university that the classes will be taught at a high enough level for you to learn what you need to.

 

My undergrad really didn't prepare me well for graduate school in mathematics. Courses which are standard at most decent schools weren't even offered, although I did some as independent study, and the courses which were offered got through so much less material that it was a tremendous leap up to attend even a mediocre graduate school.

 

Sometimes I wonder how my life would have been different if I hadn't settled for the school close to home.

[quark]

I would also suggest this book by Miraca Gross. http://www.amazon.com/Exceptionally-Gifted-Children-Miraca-Gross/dp/0415314917 You can probably get it through library loan.

 

This book has been on my nightstand these past 2 years. :001_smile: Reading it was such a breath of fresh air when I needed it.

 

I appreciate all the replies. Just wanted to say that when I get a minute later today, I'll be reading each carefully. Thank you all!

[Rivka]

I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed this trend in the homeschooling community of promoting early graduation after completing less rigorous programs. It seems like we've had a couple of posts along these lines here recently and it is also something that comes up in the advertising of College Plus. Any thoughts about what is getting this started? I'm afraid it promotes confusion for families of kids who would genuinely benefit from real acceleration.

 

Isn't there a homeschooling book about it? I think a lot of it comes from the high cost of a college degree and the fact that many homeschool families are on one income. If they value the degree only as a means to an end, then it becomes the cheapest/fastest option to get their kids to a job.

 

Yes, I think this is part of it. But also, if parents aren't really connected to academia - if they didn't go to college or they went to a minor state university, and if they don't tend to move in highly educated circles (however smart they may be) - they may not even know what they don't know about the range of available college educations, and how things work with college and/or professional school admissions. "It's more prestigious" may just sound like pointless snobbery.

 

There's a big gap between the minimum standards for a high school diploma and a college preparatory education. There's another big gap between the minimum level of high school preparation required by a college, and the level of preparation that is necessary to be competitive for admission to that college. And there's a big gap in a medical school admission committee's response to applications from, say, Frostburg State University vs. Swarthmore.

 

If you don't move in that world, and, as a homeschooling parent, you are used to thinking that you are as much of an educational expert as anyone who calls themselves a professional, and you hang out in homeschooling circles where the received wisdom is that kids coming out of public schools are appallingly uneducated... I think you could easily deceive yourself about both what constitutes "finishing high school" and what counts as "getting a college education." And you could very, very easily not realize what kind of college education may be accessible for a child who is gifted enough to be significantly accelerated.

 

I went to a top liberal arts college and then to graduate school at a large public university. I was stunned at the gap between what I experienced and what the undergraduates at my grad school experienced. My husband, who was the first in his family to go to college and attended a large public university, is much more inclined to think "college is college." But I went to a college where undergraduates published their own research papers in scientific journals; where there was close intellectual mentoring between faculty and undergraduate students; where you never saw a textbook after freshman year, because you were reading the scholarly literature instead; where an eight-page paper would come back with two pages of closely written, thoughtful comments to help you elevate both your argument and your writing to the next level; where all fifteen people in your seminar read 200 pages between Monday and Wednesday and came to class having given advance thought to which major theorists' ideas cast a pertinent light on the book; where people talked about Derrida and Lacan at parties (sorry, it was the 90's); where virtually everyone who wanted to go on to graduate school had a variety of programs to choose from; and where the baseline was set so high that even the most gifted students felt... normal.

 

An online degree from the University of Phoenix is not the same thing. A second- or third-tier public college is not the same thing. Not everyone wants that kind of intense academic experience, obviously. It's not appropriate for every student's temperament or life goals.

 

But that's what I have in mind for my kids. They may not go to Reed (perish the thought) or a similar college, but their education will prepare them to be competitive for admissions there. My standard of comparison for "done with high school" is not going to be the Walgreen's cashier who can barely make change, but has a Maryland high school diploma - it's going to be my fellow freshmen in the Reed class of '94.

 

We're going harder, deeper, broader, as far as we can go.

 

I guess what I have taken way too long to say is that just being at a college doesn't guarantee intellectual equals or stimulation. Which college matters. All education is not equal. All student populations are not equal. All classes are not equal. Ds is acutely aware of it on a unversity campus. (and this is w/us paying approx 4x more than if he were taking similar courses at a CC.......the level of the course meets its avg student. W/no admission criteria, that avg. student is definitely lower. At top tier schools, the admission criteria will obviously be higher.)

 

Yeah. I guess I could have just saved myself a lot of time and said :iagree: to 8FillTheHeart.

[quark]

Wonderful, wonderful reply. Personal stories help me understand it all so much better although I know it is different for every family. Thanks so much 8.

 

I guess what I have taken way too long to say is that just being at a college doesn't guarantee intellectual equals or stimulation. Which college matters. All education is not equal. All student populations are not equal. All classes are not equal. Ds is acutely aware of it on a unversity campus. (and this is w/us paying approx 4x more than if he were taking similar courses at a CC.......the level of the course meets its avg student. W/no admission criteria, that avg. student is definitely lower. At top tier schools, the admission criteria will obviously be higher.)

 

Aaah, yes, I have started to realize this too.

 

FWIW, having raised 3 children to adulthood and 2 younger teenagers......these yrs are not just about intellectual development. They are learning how to function in various social situations, opposite sex relationships, ***who*** are they, what do they believe about the world/religion/politics, etc. These are NOT less important than helping them mature academically. These are the roots which their entire adulthoods will eventually spring from.

If I allow myself to believe it, it looks as if DS will be going to college early. But I have wondered, won't my DS benefit so much more from taking a year or more when he is ready, to actually work with a research place or even in a completely different field first? Learn about life outside a campus. Learn about people. Understand what else he is capable of. I think it is so important that he sees he is capable of things other than math. I don't want him to define himself by his math ability either. It's good to be proud of what you can do but it also limits your self awareness of yourself and the world in some way...not sure how to explain this better but I see the fixation in a number of families I know and worry for their young people.

 

And for parents like the OP who have a fixed plan, so much can change in a heartbeat. I found the ages 6-8 to be very different intellectually from 2-5, and then 9 hit and all the prepubescent stuff began. My kid is so different emotionally now from when he was 6 or 7. I can't imagine what the teen years will be like. The academics are actually taking a backseat now as we work on emotional strength. Just talking, spending time together, bonding, reading together (without the academic part of reading being the focus). I'm intentionally setting up a "communication relationship". We've always been close but I'm doing it even more mindfully now just because I see him processing things differently. I'm also intentionally slowly cutting off some dependance at the same time. It's a very interesting point in our mom-son relationship right now. Being close and yet guiding him towards more freedom of thought and action.

 

I just don't know how someone can plan these things so far ahead. The academics are only a small part of the equation.

 

ETA: by DS going to college early I don't mean many years earlier!

Edited August 27, 2012 by quark

[momma2three]

Rivka, I think that was a really great post.

 

I find this hard to talk about online, because I come from a very academic/intellectual background and was raised to be very snobby about education. As were the vast majority of people I know. It's only as an adult that I've realized that most people don't necessarily think like this.

[quark]

Just snagging these two points.... I think when you're looking at a younger kid and judging whether work is high school level or not, it's worth it to measure against high-performing high schoolers, and not average high schoolers. If you have a kid who will eventually shine at a high school level, I wouldn't count the years before that point when he can be middle-of-the-pack. Not because it's not "really" high school, but because when you move on from high school level (college applications or whatever), you want the high school records to show a strong student, and not just a young one. And with that in mind, whether a bunch of test scores really is "necessary" in general, for a younger students I would absolutely go for the test scores. The more unlikely it looks, the more objective evidence I'd want to have.

 

Excellent point, Erica. That's definitely something we are considering when kiddo is ready for it.

[quark]

Of course gifted kids are all different from one another, but with a late elementary school child here are some of the signs we experienced or have heard from other parents who had kids who ended up in early college:

 

1. Not just able to learn high school work - but able to move through rigorous high school level work (harder APs for example) much more quickly than other students. Student is able to make natural leaps from the high school work to more upper level questions in a subject.

 

2. Top 5% (sometimes top 1%) scores on the ACT or SAT (not of 7th graders but of college bound students).

 

3. Evaluations from professors who know what is expected in college. If your 8 year old child's physics mentor tells you that he's beyond most of the lower division courses and is learning faster than the grad students - time to get out of denial!

 

4. Totally exhausting high school and lower division college work in a particular subject area. Regularly working with upper division college level material.

 

5. Self starter - not just able to follow a structured course, but the student is on their own coming up with ideas, research projects, etc.

 

Now those are just the some of the academic milestones that it is something you may be on track to consider early college. Of course it is about more than academics and there are a whole lot of other readiness factors to consider such as: child interest and motivation, ability to participate appropriately in the college classroom, study skills, strength of skills such as writing, organizational skills, ability to handle setbacks and frustrations, ability to interact with adults, etc.

 

This means a lot coming from you Barbara, especially from your own experience and also because I know you consult with families. I'm so glad I asked for a benchmark. This gives me a much clearer idea of what to realistically expect.

[Laura Corin]

British universities certainly expect that students doing things early are still reaching the very highest levels. No allowance is made for age if the parent/child chooses to do things early:

 

The University supports the general principles of Age and Stage, whereby students are allowed to progress through their educational development and qualifications at an appropriate rate according to their ability.

 

However, if students are entered early for examinations, the University would still expect students to achieve at the highest level. Poor performance could potentially have a negative effect on a future application.

 

I'm sure that graduate programmes would have the same attitude to undergraduate degrees taken early.

 

Laura

[Parrothead]

Yes, I think this is part of it. But also, if parents aren't really connected to academia - if they didn't go to college or they went to a minor state university, and if they don't tend to move in highly educated circles (however smart they may be) - they may not even know what they don't know about the range of available college educations, and how things work with college and/or professional school admissions. "It's more prestigious" may just sound like pointless snobbery.

 

If one fits into this category, how does one learn what a parent needs to know. I've realized recently that dd has dreams of Ivy League colleges. We can't afford those but I'd like to get her close.

[momma2three]

If one fits into this category, how does one learn what a parent needs to know. I've realized recently that dd has dreams of Ivy League colleges. We can't afford those but I'd like to get her close.

 

The Ivies all offer a great deal of financial aid. So I wouldn't write them off entirely.

[corduroy]

I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed this trend in the homeschooling community of promoting early graduation after completing less rigorous programs. It seems like we've had a couple of posts along these lines here recently and it is also something that comes up in the advertising of College Plus. Any thoughts about what is getting this started?

 

I'm very curious about this, too. I recently stumbled on a weird trove of videos on Youtube by accelerated homeschoolers. I've found them really mystifying, since it seemed clear (to me) that these particular families were not actually educating children who were outliers in the genius department, but who were instead rushing their pretty normal kids as fast as possible through a mediocre education in order to get a piece of paper from an online/for-profit school.

 

I found this so baffling that I did some googling, and discovered to my amazement that this is A Thing. The families doing this all seem to have a similar plan: push hard through basic work, "go to college" at 12, be done by 16. The colleges mentioned are pretty much all of the online/for-profit type, with a healthy dose of testing out of various subjects.

 

So I too wonder if this idea has an origin point somewhere. It seems too specific to just be an array of families coming up with it separately. Curious!

 

(I mean no offense by any of this, and of course there are children who are legitimately very accelerated, etc. I just find it perplexing. A central reason to homeschool, for us, is to be able to provide an academically rigorous education in the ordinary amount of time. Looking for ways to provide a mediocre education is less time seems entirely backward to me.)

 

ETA: I missed this the first time around:

 

I think it's also that the Swann's book is pretty easy to come by in homeschooling circles, even before it was made available free on Kindle.

 

Interesting! Is this the book? http://www.amazon.com/No-Regrets-Homeschooling-Earned-Masters/dp/0962361100

 

 

Edited August 27, 2012 by corduroy

[Barbara H]

I think it depends on whether "Random University" is, say, a public state university or a 2nd tier college; or if it's whatever diploma mill is willing to "accept" any old 12 year old who claims they've graduated high school. I agree that a job recruiter should not be judging based on Harvard v. U Mass. But, as someone said earlier, it is just the truth that all degrees are not created equal. The difference between Harvard and U Mass (even one of the lower-ranked satellite schools like U Mass Lowell) is a lot narrower than the difference between either Harvard or U Mass and a for-profit online college.

 

Oh yes, absolutely. The research I was referring to compares students who were choosing between Ivy League level colleges and mid tier state universities (so not "public ivies" like University of Michigan). That's entirely different than for profit schools or "nationally accredited" schools.

 

I believe there is plenty of evidence that students who do very well at their state flagships (even mid tier ones) will have very good future options. It does depend on the field the individual student wants to study and their future aspirations of course. I just don't want anyone reading this thread to come away with the idea that the only option for a highly talented student is to wait until 18 and go to a highly selective college. That's one of many paths that can work out well.

 

Finally I wanted to toss out that in terms of recruiting for some jobs, there are job recruiters who prefer to hire public university graduates because they believe they will be less likely to be entitled and will be more likely to work hard. That certainly isn't a universal belief, but it is one that comes up often enough that it is worth noting.

[Barbara H]

This means a lot coming from you Barbara, especially from your own experience and also because I know you consult with families. I'm so glad I asked for a benchmark. This gives me a much clearer idea of what to realistically expect.

 

That's very nice. Thank you.

[8filltheheart]

Oh yes, absolutely. The research I was referring to compares students who were choosing between Ivy League level colleges and mid tier state universities (so not "public ivies" like University of Michigan). That's entirely different than for profit schools or "nationally accredited" schools.

 

I believe there is plenty of evidence that students who do very well at their state flagships (even mid tier ones) will have very good future options. It does depend on the field the individual student wants to study and their future aspirations of course. I just don't want anyone reading this thread to come away with the idea that the only option for a highly talented student is to wait until 18 and go to a highly selective college. That's one of many paths that can work out well.

 

Finally I wanted to toss out that in terms of recruiting for some jobs, there are job recruiters who prefer to hire public university graduates because they believe they will be less likely to be entitled and will be more likely to work hard. That certainly isn't a universal belief, but it is one that comes up often enough that it is worth noting.

 

Goodness, I completely :iagree:. I don't want to give the impression otherwise. My dh and I are both graduates of a state university (and he has a fabulous career) and our oldest ds graduated from the state's technical university w/his chemE degree and was highly recruited by industries from across the country.

 

However, there is a distinction amg various schools and students should be aware of what they are. For example, earning a chemistry degree from a LAC vs. a STEM school may or may not hamper your career. (it will depend on the school and the company.) Taking a lot of your science credits at a CC may hamper your admissions into medical/vet school. Earning a degree at a school ranked near the bottom of a regional area is not going to work in your favor for medical school admissions, etc.

 

I will say, however, that the major issue I have heard discussed IRL is finding a community of peers that students can relate to. For some people, that may not be a huge factor. I know that for my oldest it wasn't really a factor. He loved sports, his girlfriend, and school was just a small part of his life. However, for our youngest ds, it is a huge one. He longs for friends that actually want to spend hrs discussing theoretical physics and are living in a different realm than his older brother. (can anyone relate to that?:confused:)

[quark]

Interesting! Is this the book? http://www.amazon.com/No-Regrets-Homeschooling-Earned-Masters/dp/0962361100

 

I love a good mystery. I googled accelerated homeschooling YouTube videos and found only one channel that might fit the description and the poster does refer to the Swann book linked above. I'm not sure if that's the same video you found corduroy. Interesting.

 

Oh BTW, welcome to the boards, corduroy!

[Parrothead]

The Ivies all offer a great deal of financial aid. So I wouldn't write them off entirely.

Good to know. Right now she wants to teach kids to dance (ballet). I'm not sure where she got the idea of Harvard and Yale for college.

 

Well, honestly I think it comes from watching too much Suite Life of Zack and Cody, and too many trips to Boston. Harvard and Yale are the only college names she knows. If one doesn't count the #9 party school U of Maine. :glare:

[momma2three]

Good to know. Right now she wants to teach kids to dance (ballet). I'm not sure where she got the idea of Harvard and Yale for college.

 

Well, honestly I think it comes from watching too much Suite Life of Zack and Cody, and too many trips to Boston. Harvard and Yale are the only college names she knows. If one doesn't count the #9 party school U of Maine. :glare:

 

They both have dance majors! :lol:

[Parrothead]

They both have dance majors! :lol:

I don't know if that is good or bad. :D

[Barbara H]

 

However, there is a distinction amg various schools and students should be aware of what they are. For example, earning a chemistry degree from a LAC vs. a STEM school may or may not hamper your career. (it will depend on the school and the company.) Taking a lot of your science credits at a CC may hamper your admissions into medical/vet school. Earning a degree at a school ranked near the bottom of a regional area is not going to work in your favor for medical school admissions, etc.

 

All excellent points and worth remembering.

 

My take on the community of peers question is that the peers are there at the big state u, but in a smaller concentration and a student might have to work harder to find them. It does depend a lot on the student. Some kids have waited a long time to really have that peer group and it should be prioritized because it means a lot.

[Dmmetler]

All excellent points and worth remembering.

 

My take on the community of peers question is that the peers are there at the big state u, but in a smaller concentration and a student might have to work harder to find them. It does depend a lot on the student. Some kids have waited a long time to really have that peer group and it should be prioritized because it means a lot.

 

 

One thing I've wondered (because this is definitely a priority for my DD, and it's one reason why, as we move into doing online classes, I'm looking for those that have some sort of live interactive element)-would it be easier to find these in "sheltered" programs? Not necessarily the super-early entry ones, but things like a Middle College High School program (where the student is still legally considered a high school student, but is taking classes on a college campus at at college level, but usually with a cohort of same-age students for at least some classes) vs simply applying for and getting admission separately? There's one available through a nearby school district (whether it will be ours when DD is old enough is currently in the hands of the legal system-my town is trying to secede from the school district-which, if it goes through, will remove DD's eligibility for the larger district's programming). It's at a school which I'd call a middle range state university-not a flagship, but not a commuter/online/continuing ed-type campus either.

[slackermom]

My take on the community of peers question is that the peers are there at the big state u, but in a smaller concentration and a student might have to work harder to find them. It does depend a lot on the student. Some kids have waited a long time to really have that peer group and it should be prioritized because it means a lot.

:iagree:

Also, many of the big state universities have a smaller honors program available that can help these students connect, including UMass. Next fall they are opening a new Honors Residential Complex.

 

From their website:

 

If you are entering UMass Amherst with an exemplary high school record that includes

 

• combined (critical reading & math) SAT-I scores above 1300,

• a weighted high school GPA of "A-" or higher, and

• a high school class rank in the top 10 percent,

 

you will be invited by the UMass Amherst Admissions Office to join Commonwealth College. There is no separate application process for the College.

[Barbara H]

I'm looking for those that have some sort of live interactive element)-would it be easier to find these in "sheltered" programs? Not necessarily the super-early entry ones, but things like a Middle College High School program (where the student is still legally considered a high school student, but is taking classes on a college campus at at college level, but usually with a cohort of same-age students for at least some classes) .

 

My answer would be that it depends. These programs vary widely. Some cater to highly gifted kids many of whom will go on to more selective four year college. Other programs more target an "at risk" population who may drop out of high school before college. Kids may be going to high schools that don't offer a lot of AP or real college prep level courses and getting them into a community college or regional state u, can keep up the interest level and give them a headstart with an Associate's degree at high school graduation.

[8filltheheart]

One thing I've wondered (because this is definitely a priority for my DD, and it's one reason why, as we move into doing online classes, I'm looking for those that have some sort of live interactive element)-would it be easier to find these in "sheltered" programs? Not necessarily the super-early entry ones, but things like a Middle College High School program (where the student is still legally considered a high school student, but is taking classes on a college campus at at college level, but usually with a cohort of same-age students for at least some classes) vs simply applying for and getting admission separately? There's one available through a nearby school district (whether it will be ours when DD is old enough is currently in the hands of the legal system-my town is trying to secede from the school district-which, if it goes through, will remove DD's eligibility for the larger district's programming). It's at a school which I'd call a middle range state university-not a flagship, but not a commuter/online/continuing ed-type campus either.

 

I'm not sure if I understand your distinction, so disregard if I am misunderstanding.

 

Our ds, for example, is attending the university through an advanced scholars program (ASP). It is not an Early College Experience (ECE) program which is for students seeking full-time admission. The ASP restricts students to only 2 classes (+labs......our ds is taking 9 hrs). No one on campus has any idea that he is a high school student unless he shares the info (not even professors).

 

ECE and ASP are available at most universities. Through both of these types of programs there is no restriction as to what courses may be taken as long as pre-reqs are met. (admission varies from program to program.)

 

The only MCHS I know about is through the CC, not a university. (the academics were simply CC courses taught by CC teachers and the students were all younger. It would not be my first choice. ETA: I would follow Barbara's post and fully investigate the base population and "where they go" information for the students in the particular MCHS program. It might be a gem or a dud. ;) )

 

FWIW, we were told by the homeschool organizations here that dual enrollment is not allowed through the university and that all dual enrollment is deferred to the CC. It is not an accurate statement. The reason that is the impression is basically the admissions criteria. (only Compass test scores required + available remedial courses and no other restrictions (w/the possible exception of age) at the CC, whereas the ASP requires SAT or PSAT scores, essay, transcripts, guidance counselor LOR (which I wrote), etc w/a limited # of students accepted and ECE requires full admissions.)

Edited August 28, 2012 by 8FillTheHeart

[regentrude]

My take on the community of peers question is that the peers are there at the big state u, but in a smaller concentration and a student might have to work harder to find them. .

 

Definitely. We do get students who had been admitted to Ivies but decided to attend out state STEM university for financial reasons. They are there.

It also depends on the student to which degree he seeks out educational opportunities outside the realm of the standard curriculum, such as undergraduate research with a faculty advisor.

It will be possible for a student to find like minded ones even at a public university.

[Dmmetler]

I'm not sure if I understand your distinction, so disregard if I am misunderstanding.

 

Our ds, for example, is attending the university through an advanced scholars program (ASP). It is not an Early College Experience (ECE) program which is for students seeking full-time admission. The ASP restricts students to only 2 classes (+labs......our ds is taking 9 hrs). No one on campus has any idea that he is a high school student unless he shares the info (not even professors).

 

ECE and ASP are available at most universities. Through both of these types of programs there is no restriction as to what courses may be taken as long as pre-reqs are met. (admission varies from program to program.)

 

The only MCHS I know about is through the CC, not a university. (the academics were simply CC courses taught by CC teachers and the students were all younger. It would not be my first choice. ETA: I would follow Barbara's post and fully investigate the base population and "where they go" information for the students in the particular MCHS program. It might be a gem or a dud. ;) )

 

FWIW, we were told by the homeschool organizations here that dual enrollment is not allowed through the university and that all dual enrollment is deferred to the CC. It is not an accurate statement. The reason that is the impression is basically the admissions criteria. (only Compass test scores required + available remedial courses and no other restrictions (w/the possible exception of age) at the CC, whereas the ASP requires SAT or PSAT scores, essay, transcripts, guidance counselor LOR (which I wrote), etc w/a limited # of students accepted and ECE requires full admissions.)

 

I guess my question is-would some sort of specialized program designed for younger than average entrants possibly make it easier to find social peers than simply attending college at, say, age 16 vs at age 18?

 

I entered college early via an early entry program (APEA at Carnegie Mellon) and socially, the summer session that APEA candidates spend on campus, doing college classes, after which IF they appear good candidates for regular admissions they can be admitted either immediately or deferred until after high school graduation (or they can take their college credit and go home with a CMU transcript-because even though you get admitted, it doesn't mean you can afford CMU!), and socially, it was the first time in my life I felt "normal". I admit I'm biased, though-I met DH there, and we've now known each other 24 years since that first summer, and will have been married 18 years this summer :).

[Dana]

The only MCHS I know about is through the CC, not a university. (the academics were simply CC courses taught by CC teachers and the students were all younger. It would not be my first choice. ETA: I would follow Barbara's post and fully investigate the base population and "where they go" information for the students in the particular MCHS program. It might be a gem or a dud. ;) )

 

Our cc has a Middle College.

From what I have seen of it (not too much) it is definitely high school and more for students who were about gone. I wouldn't have my son do courses with them at ALL. I'd far rather him take regular cc classes.

YMMV.

[wapiti]

I believe there is plenty of evidence that students who do very well at their state flagships (even mid tier ones) will have very good future options. It does depend on the field the individual student wants to study and their future aspirations of course. I just don't want anyone reading this thread to come away with the idea that the only option for a highly talented student is to wait until 18 and go to a highly selective college. That's one of many paths that can work out well.

 

Goodness, I completely :iagree:. I don't want to give the impression otherwise.

:iagree::iagree: I didn't mean to imply otherwise. There are many possible paths, each with its own set of advantages and disadvantages.

 

I just want the parents of very gifted kids to understand that in some situations, a "top" school for a particular field of study might open doors, which may make all the difference for students who may be coming from a world of somewhat different cultural expectations and connections.

[Parrothead]

done

Wow! She edited all her recent posts to this. I don't suppose she will be back.

 

This became an interesting and informative thread. I hate that she won't see it that way. Oh, well. What can you do?

[Kathy G]

Perhaps this is a time for us to remember that our messages can seem more harsh than we intend. If we drive people away, that may mean we are overbearing with advice or opinions although well meaning. I know I have taken extended vacations from this board out of frustration, and I know of several other who have as well. Just food for thought.

[Parrothead]

Perhaps this is a time for us to remember that our messages can seem more harsh than we intend. If we drive people away, that may mean we are overbearing with advice or opinions although well meaning. I know I have taken extended vacations from this board out of frustration, and I know of several other who have as well. Just food for thought.

:iagree:Although in this particular case I think JM4's definition of accelerated and the common definition for here is decidedly different. ;)

[Beth in SW WA]

Perhaps this is a time for us to remember that our messages can seem more harsh than we intend. If we drive people away, that may mean we are overbearing with advice or opinions although well meaning. I know I have taken extended vacations from this board out of frustration, and I know of several other who have as well. Just food for thought.

 

:iagree:

 

It's a shame that certain threads need to turn out like this one. And this one and this one (re CyberScholar).

 

We all lose when valuable posters disappear.

 

I hope JM4, Bloggermom & CyberScholar give this board another chance.

[regentrude]

Perhaps this is a time for us to remember that our messages can seem more harsh than we intend. If we drive people away, that may mean we are overbearing with advice or opinions although well meaning.

 

Just remember: if anybody's message sounded harsh, it was the one that got removed by the moderators and got the OP banned - she was not driven away by the advice. Everybody else was keeping a civil tone, even after the outburst.

[kiana]

Just remember: if anybody's message sounded harsh, it was the one that got removed by the moderators and got the OP banned - she was not driven away by the advice. Everybody else was keeping a civil tone, even after the outburst.

 

Regrettably, some people will see anything other than admiration and applause as attacks.

 

And a lot of people really, really don't want to listen to people telling them that what they want to do almost certainly isn't going to work.

 

I really believe discussions are made far more valuable by people respectfully presenting alternate points of view, and I really didn't see a lot of disrespect here.

[a27mom]

I realize I am new around here, but I have been following this thread from the beginning. I also checked out the 2 other threads that were linked. It seems there is a misunderstanding of the difference between accelerated learning, and accelerated schooling.

 

All three posters mentioned did not appear to have children who learn faster, just methods to finish sooner.

 

I too assumed that the poster had kids who were learning at a faster rate than average, and therefore became concerned that she seemed to be glossing over educational depth and her children's potential. I think the negative responses were more out of compassion than harshness. But, I guess it should have been a clue when she stated "we accelerate our children", as opposed to "our children are accelerated"

 

There are likely some legitimate arguments to accelerated schooling for those whose talents and gifting are outside of the intellectual/academic. I certainly know many who spent little time learning in conventional high school, and "having the college experience"

 

However since the vast majority of those who post on this board have children with gifts that lie in intellectual/academic areas, it can be difficult to relate to those who have a more utilitarian view of academics. Especially when most of us come to this forum dealing with issues that we did not choose for our children, but are a part of our children.

[LisaBoo]

:iagree:

I hadn't heard of American Public University, so I just googled it and it seems to be a for-profit online university? I don't think that I would accelerate with the end goal of a for-profit online college.

[kiana]

There are likely some legitimate arguments to accelerated schooling for those whose talents and gifting are outside of the intellectual/academic. I certainly know many who spent little time learning in conventional high school, and "having the college experience"

 

You know, I 100% agree with you here. But I also think that, firstly, elementary school is an awfully young age to be making that decision, and secondly, her educational aspirations seemed to include possible law, medical, or veterinary school.

 

The bachelor's degrees offered by the first school online are in information technology, liberal arts, and psychology. The second one offers a bit more of an array of courses, but still not really anything that would possibly lead into medical or veterinary school. All of these are awfully competitive.

 

A student who has to take extra postgraduate courses in order to even be considered for admission will be at a significant disadvantage financially, as financial aid for a second bachelor's is generally much harder to come by.

[regentrude]

You know, I 100% agree with you here. But I also think that, firstly, elementary school is an awfully young age to be making that decision, and secondly, her educational aspirations seemed to include possible law, medical, or veterinary school..

 

The bolded especially. Of course it is normal for parents to have plans for their children - but I find it disturbing if those plans limit the children's possibilities instead of opening opportunities. This is particularly sad for children with a lot of potential.

[a27mom]

You know, I 100% agree with you here. But I also think that, firstly, elementary school is an awfully young age to be making that decision, and secondly, her educational aspirations seemed to include possible law, medical, or veterinary school.

 

The bachelor's degrees offered by the first school online are in information technology, liberal arts, and psychology. The second one offers a bit more of an array of courses, but still not really anything that would possibly lead into medical or veterinary school. All of these are awfully competitive.

 

A student who has to take extra postgraduate courses in order to even be considered for admission will be at a significant disadvantage financially, as financial aid for a second bachelor's is generally much harder to come by.

 

The bolded especially. Of course it is normal for parents to have plans for their children - but I find it disturbing if those plans limit the children's possibilities instead of opening opportunities. This is particularly sad for children with a lot of potential.

 

I totally agree with both of these points. :001_smile:

 

And being someone who values learning strongly, I found the concept very disturbing. Which is why I feel that most of the responses were truly compassionate.

 

I had forgotten that she mentioned the post graduate idea. Yeah that would definitely not work.

 

I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt that she misunderstood accelerated learning :001_huh:

 

But honestly it sometimes seems that people are really just trying to cause a stir. sigh....

[La Texican]

Darn good thread. It made a lot of the marbles in my noggin roll around. The op was just looking for her tribe, I guess. In a sense her kids are consistently learning so they will be advanced. I see what your saying that they'll hit a wall by learning that way. Where "they all even out by 3rd grade" will be in their case "they all even out by highschool" because they forgot to add depth and challenge to the speed and technical proficiency. Well, the regulars came out of the woodwork and this has been a great conversation to watch. I see no reason why they shouldn't teach their kids the way she described, but it's great that those decisions be made from a more informed position. This thread is a great resource twords weighing the pros and cons for their own families with relevant realistic information.

Eta: if they hit that wall before graduation this actually could be a great strategy for teaching advanced learners because by accelerating they are learning how to work consistantly and they are being challenged at higher and higher levels. They will have a lot of educational tools and a lot of extra time left in highschool to use them. It's not necessarily going to end up in expensive remedial college classes. The key to advanced learners is flexibility.

Rambling continued:

 

Sometimes when you reach for one opportunity you have to let go of another one. She's not burning any bridges by making these choices right now. *If in the future she needs to take more than one year to do a years worth of work then what? *From what I've read there's room for acceleration, full speed ahead, or acceleration in a subject or two. *Sometimes you have to back up. *There's room for reversing a skip as often as needed. *I know she's not skipping, she's racing through it. *But the same applies. If she has ignited a fire in her kids they'll seek out their own level. *Who's to say she's not? *If her kids have a lot of potential but she's not interest-lead or curiosity driven maybe she's trying to teach them how to fish.

I hope I'm not being arguementative. *I'm just saying I don't know, and to prove I don't know I'm thinking about possibilities.

 

I do agree an early graduation with out enough of a high school education would be a bad outcome.

Edited August 29, 2012 by La Texican

[momma2three]

Just remember: if anybody's message sounded harsh, it was the one that got removed by the moderators and got the OP banned - she was not driven away by the advice. Everybody else was keeping a civil tone, even after the outburst.

 

:iagree:

 

I thought it was an interesting conversation.

[melmichigan]

It seems there is a misunderstanding of the difference between accelerated learning, and accelerated schooling.

 

 

:iagree: I think most of us think of accelerated learning versus accelerated schooling when we think of this board, but that is a misnomer by definition of the board description, which I had to go back and read. :) I think the advise given was given with the best of intentions.

 

I know it's also sometimes difficult coming from a PS mentality, just keep pushing them forward to keep them challenged and leading to earlier and earlier graduation (our experience), to a more open view of education allowing for more challenging materials and "normal" graduation dates (our current homeschooling goal). I am proving to have been a little ignorant of "just get it done" educational models.

Edited August 29, 2012 by melmichigan

[jennynd]

You know, I 100% agree with you here. But I also think that, firstly, elementary school is an awfully young age to be making that decision, and secondly, her educational aspirations seemed to include possible law, medical, or veterinary school.

Yep, And it seems like it is her choice not her children choice.