Kiddo wants to know why girls dress the way they do...

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I just have a different perspective. :)

 

One, yes it does boil down to they need to mind their own business because women and women's bodies aren't going away.

 

Two, the truth is I have absolutely no idea why the girl is dressing that way. Maybe it's an outfit she doesn't really like, but it's laundry day. Maybe she's the next woman ill repute from Babylon. Maybe she has low self esteem. Idk.

 

And three, it simply doesn't matter to what I tell my sons. Every woman is to be treated like a lady.

 

Maybe she's the whore of Babylon, or maybe it's just laundry day! I am rolling. I am seriously laughing out loud, going to wake everybody up.

 

:smilielol5:

 

 

 

 

Lost Surprise, we're not really in conflict. I promise I have spent minutes, hours, days, years, agony (and all-night praying) over properly instructing my four sons in morality, romance, and sexual development. I see a big difference between a 10yo and a 13yo, but my boys have all been late bloomers. 10yos are little boys here.

[Mrs Mungo]

I have a photo of my grandmother fishing in a crop-top, shorts and espadrilles. It is nothing new. I don't think she looked trashy at all.

 

I hate that these conversations constantly happen. I hate how these conversations make women's worth about what they wear (or don't).

[Abigail4476]

...And three, it simply doesn't matter to what I tell my sons. Every woman is to be treated like a lady.

 

:iagree:

 

Raising a boy, this is the number one thing we try to instill (on this topic). A gentleman treats every woman respectfully, whether she appears to deserve it or not.

[Rebel Yell]

:confused: I hope my response wasn't misinterpreted as condescension. My girls and I do all dress modestly.. by most standards. It doesn't make us any more or less pure in heart than someone covered from their teeth to their toenails, or who is just wearing the very bare minimum. I was just cautioning people to not teach their sons that a girl in shorts and a tank top is a tramp. I'd never assume a tattooed biker is a dirtbag anymore than I assume the pastor in a suit is not.

[Rebel Yell]

<snip>

 

For one thing, if a 10 year old comments about it we're not talking about a slightly immodest outfit. We're generally talking about an all-out-there, what-the-heck kind of outfit. Its a worthy question. <snip>

 

Not necessarily. I think the perspective of the boy asking makes a huge difference. If he is raised in a family/church/etc. where all of the ladies wear very long skirts and high-neck long-hem long-sleeve shirts he might think a typical girl in capris and a tank top is immodest... Or maybe if he mostly deals with boys who wear baggy knee-length gym shorts and oversized tshirts he just wondered why they dressed differently since no boys he knows wear shorty shorts and halter tops. :confused: at 10, he may be simply curious- the same way a typical boy might ask why Amish people dress a certain way. Or why a homeschooler in their pajammies might look out the window and wonder why all of the school kids are dressed the same if they have uniforms. :D

 

My hope is that children are not taught to judge the heart by outward appearance. I'll admit it's a sore spot with me- it breaks my heart to see "modestly dressed" kids acting self-righteous while they make fun of kids in tank tops or Toby Mac concert shirts. :glare:

 

 

[Luanne]

... especially for those who think women dress just fine in America and it is ok to show basically whatever you want. My friend who lives in the south of France came back to America about 3 or 4 years ago and was extremely surprised to see how women dress here now. She said the only women in France who dress that way in public are prostitutes. Enough said.

[kitten18]

... especially for those who think women dress just fine in America and it is ok to show basically whatever you want. My friend who lives in the south of France came back to America about 3 or 4 years ago and was extremely surprised to see how women dress here now. She said the only women in France who dress that way in public are prostitutes. Enough said.

Well, I don't live in France. Where I live, showing some cleavage is "just fine".

[momma2three]

I would tell my kid to mind his own business and that it is beyond rude to comment on someone else's appearance.

 

ETA: Which is what I already tell my kids. I really hope that they've learned this lesson by the time they're 10.

Edited August 28, 2012 by momma2three

[Murphy101]

Well, I don't live in France. Where I live, showing some cleavage is "just fine".

 

Here too. In fact, showing a lot is just fine here.

 

Though why I'd care what some French woman I've never met thinks of my cleavage is beyond me. The French can dress how they want and do can we.

[Luanne]

... don't understand why people think it is ok to show the world the parts of their body that should be covered up.

[Luanne]

... at no point did the OP say he asked loudly within ear-shot of the person he was asking about. I wouldn't want to have been the child of someone who when you asked a question, you got "mind your own business" as the answer.

[KungFuPanda]

I WISH I had enough cleavage to scandalize The Hive.

[Alte Veste Academy]

... at no point did the OP say he asked loudly within ear-shot of the person he was asking about. I wouldn't want to have been the child of someone who when you asked a question, you got "mind your own business" as the answer.

 

:iagree:100%

 

Talk about shutting down conversation!

 

I know better than that all women who show skin are tarts. I will teach my kids the same. But more conversation = greater understanding. MYOB or in your face, here's how it is, period? doesn't really further much understanding either. And, no you can't understand why one particular person dresses in a particular way but you can certainly further your own understanding of your child's heart, opinions, questions, etc. Why shut that down? Of course, there are those who like to just fill their kids up with their own views on every single issue instead of encouraging them to think for themselves at all, but that's a whole other cupcake, kilty thread altogether. :tongue_smilie:

[bolt.]

With girls, I'd go into modesty and where the urge to dress revealing-ly might come from -- because it might be relevant to their future understanding of their own fashion options. With a boy, I think I'd just say that there are lots of different clothing styles, and everyone has the freedom to choose the style they like best... that style is a very personal thing and we should expect to see people make a variety of choices.

 

I don't think I'd ever teach a boy to 'treat every woman/girl like a lady' -- I'd much rather teach all children to treat every person in the world *like a human being* and leave it at that.

[jenangelcat]

... don't understand why people think it is ok to show the world the parts of their body that should be covered up.

 

Says who?

[Abigail4476]

With girls, I'd go into modesty and where the urge to dress revealing-ly might come from -- because it might be relevant to their future understanding of their own fashion options. With a boy, I think I'd just say that there are lots of different clothing styles, and everyone has the freedom to choose the style they like best... that style is a very personal thing and we should expect to see people make a variety of choices.

 

I don't think I'd ever teach a boy to 'treat every woman/girl like a lady' -- I'd much rather teach all children to treat every person in the world *like a human being* and leave it at that.

 

I agree with you, but since straight men are sexually attracted to women, there can be an additional complication in which men feel that some women are sending sexual signals via their appearance. That message is sent clearly when someone speaks negatively about the character of a girl or woman who is scantily clad. It's important, IMO, to teach boys to not interpret how a woman dresses as an invitation and for a young boy it seems like saying "be a gentleman to all women" is the easiest way to address that. It can be elaborated on later in life. IOW, I don't want my son being disrespectful to a girl or treating her as if she's a "tramp" or disgusting because she chose her clothes badly.

 

In our society, as degraded as it is IMO (in regard to etiquette), there are different dynamics in how men interact with each other and how men and women interact. Of course, I come from the old-school that says a man should hold the door for a woman, open her car door, pull out her chair and a whole number of other special favors. :D I wouldn't expect a man to do that for another man, generally speaking. We teach our son the old-fashioned rules of etiquette and we expect him to apply them to all women--not just the ones who dress appropriately. Of course we expect him to be respectful to men and boys, too, but that involves a different set of rules and a completely different dynamic. For example, if ds9 sees a man in a pair of swim shorts, he won't blink twice. He might, however, do a double take at a curvy woman in a revealing bikini. :tongue_smilie: Ergo, I might have to give him a little extra instruction that goes something like, "Wow, she's beautiful, isn't she? It's natural for a boy to admire a beautiful woman, but make sure you don't stare because that makes people feel uncomfortable."

 

I do believe as a mother that I have more of a responsibility to teach my son how to respect women. It seems to be more a problem area for men, in my observation.

[bolt.]

since straight men are sexually attracted to women, there can be an additional complication in which men feel that some women are sending sexual signals via their appearance. That message is sent clearly when someone speaks negatively about the character of a girl or woman who is scantily clad. It's important, IMO, to teach boys to not interpret how a woman dresses as an invitation and for a young boy it seems like saying "be a gentleman to all women" is the easiest way to address that.

To me it seems easier to model the mindset of "why would anyone assume anything about a girl's character from her clothes?" by refusing to even entertain the idea that people could interpret clothing as a sexual message. I tend to like to work from the most basic principles, so to me the most basic principle is: A person is a person, so treat them like one. Is the person making odd clothing choices? Fair enough, but the principle holds, and needs no modification: an oddly dressed person is a person, so treat them like one. Are you having a sexual reaction to a person... the principle still needs no modification: treat that person like a person regardless. Just never entertain a thought that there might be a reason *not* to treat a person like a person. A naked person is a person, so treat them like one. A homeless person is a person, so treat them like one. A female person is a person, so treat them like one -- treating female people 'like ladies' is just needlessly complex to my style of thinking. I suppose it might be helpful to some people... I'm not trying to make an argument for my case. It's just an explaination of the way I think.

 

I don't want my children being disrespectful to anyone, for any reason. I don't provide specific ideas as-to why they might be disrespectful, then fight against those ideas... the only thing that needs to be said is, "Is she a person or not?" I don't think 'the fairer sex' needs any special favors... but I do think people in general could be a lot more respectful of one another and about one another. I'm all for that (and working hard for it). Thosse special favors might be icing on the cake -- but the cake is basic interpersonal respect, not gender-interpreted respect, so that's where I'm focused.

 

{{Note, I don't turn down acts of gentlemanly kindness. I recieve them as kindnesses -- but I neither need nor expect them. In my cultural context very few men under 60 are doing the gentlemanly stuff anyways. It's pretty much a non-issue.}}

[KnitWit]

To me it seems easier to model the mindset of "why would anyone assume anything about a girl's character from her clothes?" by refusing to even entertain the idea that people could interpret clothing as a sexual message. I tend to like to work from the most basic principles, so to me the most basic principle is: A person is a person, so treat them like one. Is the person making odd clothing choices? Fair enough, but the principle holds, and needs no modification: an oddly dressed person is a person, so treat them like one. Are you having a sexual reaction to a person... the principle still needs no modification: treat that person like a person regardless. Just never entertain a thought that there might be a reason *not* to treat a person like a person. A naked person is a person, so treat them like one. A homeless person is a person, so treat them like one. A female person is a person, so treat them like one -- treating female people 'like ladies' is just needlessly complex to my style of thinking. I suppose it might be helpful to some people... I'm not trying to make an argument for my case. It's just an explaination of the way I think.

 

I don't want my children being disrespectful to anyone, for any reason. I don't provide specific ideas as-to why they might be disrespectful, then fight against those ideas... the only thing that needs to be said is, "Is she a person or not?" I don't think 'the fairer sex' needs any special favors... but I do think people in general could be a lot more respectful of one another and about one another. I'm all for that (and working hard for it). Thosse special favors might be icing on the cake -- but the cake is basic interpersonal respect, not gender-interpreted respect, so that's where I'm focused.

 

{{Note, I don't turn down acts of gentlemanly kindness. I recieve them as kindnesses -- but I neither need nor expect them. In my cultural context very few men under 60 are doing the gentlemanly stuff anyways. It's pretty much a non-issue.}}

 

:iagree:

[kalanamak]

I would tell my kid to mind his own business and that it is beyond rude to comment on someone else's appearance.

 

ETA: Which is what I already tell my kids. I really hope that they've learned this lesson by the time they're 10.

 

And I've taught my child that in the privacy of our house or car, and in a respectful tone, he can ask me ANYthing. It is the only one of two gripes I had about my parents. They did not welcome questions on sensitive issues. I blame it on their era, as they were both born before 1920.

 

Did you really mean to call my child rude?

Edited August 28, 2012 by kalanamak
spelling

[Alte Veste Academy]

And I've taught my child that in the privacy of our house or car, and in a respectful tone, he can ask me ANYthing. It is the only one of two gripes I had about my parents. They did not welcome questions on sensitive issues. I blame it on their era, as they were both born before 1920.

 

Did you really mean to call my child rude?

 

:grouphug: Well if your son's question fits her definition of the word, I would consider it irrelevant given the open and honest way you are raising your DS.

[kalanamak]

:grouphug: Well if your son's question fits her definition of the word, I would consider it irrelevant given the open and honest way you are raising your DS.

 

I think this thread needs a good laugh.

Where I work, patients say the durnedest things. Today a rather manic woman was clacking down the hall in The World's Shortest Skirt, and a rather old grizzled schizophrenic called out that her "thread was showing".

 

I also note that part of what I do for a living is describe people. One of our favorite pasttimes is to wander through pictures of illnesses, and I tell kiddo all the terms for describing them. Maculopapular, turgor, plethoric, bleb, bull's eye, plaque, rubor, strabismus, ataxic. And I do have to note if someone is neatly groomed, casually groomed, provocatively dressed, disheveled, matted, stained, ill-fitting. It is something I do every day. So, I certainly don't think of it as rude, but as a professional duty.

 

I also think it is dreaming to think we live in a world where people do not evaluate and "judge" people by how they are dressed. I would be willing to bet that even blind people listen to the type of shoe, the scritch of polyester, the smell of perfume. What we do with that evaluation is more important than doing it, and why deny what people do all over the world, since human history began? It is part of our very human attempt to "suss" out other people, to understand their attitude and motives, the better to deal with them. And whether we do it to see if they'd be easy to scam, or to do it to see if we should be wary of them, or to figure out how best to be polite and reasonable to them, THAT is what is the important kernel. Not the act of noticing.

[Murphy101]

Says who?

 

Not me.

 

Though if you always talk like that describing people for a living, then in stumped as to why you bothered to ask the hive something when you already have the answer you want.

[Luanne]

Says the Bible for one. Not to mention the fact that you are entitled to your opinion, but apprently I'm not entitled to mine.

[Murphy101]

Says the Bible for one. Not to mention the fact that you are entitled to your opinion, but apprently I'm not entitled to mine.

 

No. Who says everyone should show everything? Not me. Not any previous poster. A belly flash or bit of cleavage is a far cry from an exposed nipple or whoha.

 

The bible?! Yeahhhhh. I'm betting those women dancing before king David were wearing very provocative clothing. Same goes for the ladies trying to entice Moses. Or Esther. I'm certain I'm wearing more than she was when she won the king's favor.

 

ETA: Of course you are welcome to your opinion. The OP asked what we would tell our kid. That was stated. I just don't care to make everything out to be a deep spiritual discovery. I'm simple. I don't know why those girls dress the way they do and it doesn't matter bc we treat them kind regardless. He can ask me anything. And they usually do. But I'm not going to give them some sermon on everything they ask.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Martha

[Alte Veste Academy]

I think this thread needs a good laugh.

Where I work, patients say the durnedest things. Today a rather manic woman was clacking down the hall in The World's Shortest Skirt, and a rather old grizzled schizophrenic called out that her "thread was showing".

 

I also note that part of what I do for a living is describe people. One of our favorite pasttimes is to wander through pictures of illnesses, and I tell kiddo all the terms for describing them. Maculopapular, turgor, plethoric, bleb, bull's eye, plaque, rubor, strabismus, ataxic. And I do have to note if someone is neatly groomed, casually groomed, provocatively dressed, disheveled, matted, stained, ill-fitting. It is something I do every day. So, I certainly don't think of it as rude, but as a professional duty.

 

I also think it is dreaming to think we live in a world where people do not evaluate and "judge" people by how they are dressed. I would be willing to bet that even blind people listen to the type of shoe, the scritch of polyester, the smell of perfume. What we do with that evaluation is more important than doing it, and why deny what people do all over the world, since human history began? It is part of our very human attempt to "suss" out other people, to understand their attitude and motives, the better to deal with them. And whether we do it to see if they'd be easy to scam, or to do it to see if we should be wary of them, or to figure out how best to be polite and reasonable to them, THAT is what is the important kernel. Not the act of noticing.

 

I agree with you completely.

 

Also, asking for your professional opinion, is "junky cough" a term actually used by doctors? When I got pneumonia in 2008 and told DH I thought it was pneumonia because my cough sounded (and felt!) junky, he did not think that was an actual term in use and I...disagreed (vehemently and junkily). :lol:

[kalanamak]

 

Also, asking for your professional opinion, is "junky cough" a term actually used by doctors?

 

I've never seen it in writing, but often heard it spoken. "Productive cough" would be the technical term. If you sound junky but aren't producing sputum (yet), I would use the term "wet cough" in writing.

[KungFuPanda]

[Alte Veste Academy]

That cartoon is spectacular.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I've never seen it in writing, but often heard it spoken. "Productive cough" would be the technical term. If you sound junky but aren't producing sputum (yet), I would use the term "wet cough" in writing.

 

I am going to choose to take that as you being on my side in our debate. :tongue_smilie: Thanks!

[jenangelcat]

Says the Bible for one. Not to mention the fact that you are entitled to your opinion, but apprently I'm not entitled to mine.

 

You're right, it is an opinion, because we can't know the truth of someone's internal motivations (for wearing whatever clothes) unless we ask them. Therefore IMO the only truthful answer would be "I don't know" and then give the person asking the question an assortment of reasons why people where the clothes they do.

[Abigail4476]

To me it seems easier to model the mindset of "why would anyone assume anything about a girl's character from her clothes?" by refusing to even entertain the idea that people could interpret clothing as a sexual message. I tend to like to work from the most basic principles, so to me the most basic principle is: A person is a person, so treat them like one. Is the person making odd clothing choices? Fair enough, but the principle holds, and needs no modification: an oddly dressed person is a person, so treat them like one. Are you having a sexual reaction to a person... the principle still needs no modification: treat that person like a person regardless. Just never entertain a thought that there might be a reason *not* to treat a person like a person. A naked person is a person, so treat them like one. A homeless person is a person, so treat them like one. A female person is a person, so treat them like one -- treating female people 'like ladies' is just needlessly complex to my style of thinking. I suppose it might be helpful to some people... I'm not trying to make an argument for my case. It's just an explaination of the way I think.

 

I don't want my children being disrespectful to anyone, for any reason. I don't provide specific ideas as-to why they might be disrespectful, then fight against those ideas... the only thing that needs to be said is, "Is she a person or not?" I don't think 'the fairer sex' needs any special favors... but I do think people in general could be a lot more respectful of one another and about one another. I'm all for that (and working hard for it). Thosse special favors might be icing on the cake -- but the cake is basic interpersonal respect, not gender-interpreted respect, so that's where I'm focused.

 

Well, I think you're assuming that I give my son adult context; I don't. However, considering our culture, I'm sure other men and boys will certainly give him that context at some point, and then he will have my counsel to remember. :)

 

I'm not really into or charmed by political correctness, and I'm fine with differentiating between genders. I believe that men and women are vastly different on every level and they interpret the world around them in different ways. I realize not everyone agrees with that sentiment, and that's fine with me, too. My son isn't going to be harmed by me teaching him to be respectful to women in a world that (IMO) degrades and objectifies them. I'm thinking women in his future will appreciate it. ;)

 

{{Note, I don't turn down acts of gentlemanly kindness. I recieve them as kindnesses -- but I neither need nor expect them. In my cultural context very few men under 60 are doing the gentlemanly stuff anyways. It's pretty much a non-issue.}}

 

I don't "need" men to be gentlemanly, but I do like it and I think it's a nice skill for a man to have. My husband opens doors for me, pulls out my chair at the table, says please and thank you and is generally a polite, courteous person. After 18 years of marriage, he still likes to open the car door and shut it for me. Obviously I can open and shut my own car door, but I enjoy letting him do it for me. :)

 

I am insulted and disgusted by anyone, male or female, who is blatantly inconsiderate or rude. I would probably show that on my face more than I would react to someone who wasn't wearing a lot of clothing. :tongue_smilie:

[LG Gone Wild]

 

Slam dunk!

[Luanne]

... the women who were dancing around them (in the Bible) trying to entice them were SINNING which is WRONG... you don't have much of an argument there for their attire. They were also harlots.

[Murphy101]

... the women who were dancing around them (in the Bible) trying to entice them were SINNING which is WRONG... you don't have much of an argument there for their attire. They were also harlots.

 

Esther was a harlot?!

Zipporah was a harlot?!

 

Blarney!

[Luanne]

They weren't behaving in a very Christian fashion. That was really my point.

[Luanne]

.. that the two you mentioned were dressed provocatively? Or is that just an assumption you are making?

[Murphy101]

They weren't behaving in a very Christian fashion. That was really my point.

 

Esther wasn't being Christian in her behavior?:001_huh:

 

Given that King David danced before the arc of the covenant in nothing but a loin cloth simply because he was really happy to bring it home, I'm thinking whatever the women did to entice rulers did not involve being modest.

 

That aside, Christian fashion doesn't exist. There is no mandated rubric for what is or is not acceptable Christian fashion other than personal opinion (which occassionally groups together in sects) and social trend.

 

I'm not a fan of midriffs or tramp stamps showing or pants with "Spank me" written on the bum, or nipple exposure either.

 

But I'm not wearing it or buying it for my kids. And those people may or may not be Christians to any degree of spiritual development, thus even if there were an accepted Christian fashion rubric to judge them against, it wouldn't apply to them anyways.

[KungFuPanda]

They weren't behaving in a very Christian fashion. That was really my point.

 

It's scientifically proven that you cannot be a 'real' Christian if you dance. You are especially awful if you dance with an exposed midriff.

 

Got it.

[KnitWit]

OY!!!

[Candid]

We were at the beach and saw a young girl probably 5 or 6 with the location's name across the back of her shorts. My 15 yo ds was indignant about why she was dressed like and he knew exactly who was to blame: her parents.

 

To be honest, I am glad sometimes to have two boys.

[stripe]

I would tell my kid to mind his own business and that it is beyond rude to comment on someone else's appearance.

 

Any type of comment is rude? Any type of question is rude? I don't understand why asking a parent a question about someone outside of the person's hearing is rude.

 

My children have asked me questions about their friends -- outside of the kids' earshot, when they were first getting to know them, for example about one boy's missing limbs and another's hearing aid. Then there are people who rudely point and ask questions about one of my kids. Or the ones who want to touch my children. And the librarian recently told my daughter she liked her socks. A homeless man used to like to scream "Nice headlights!" at me as I walked past. My mother loves it when people ask her about her jewelry. So does my grandma. I think the world is a lot less simplistic. Some comments are weird, some are neutral, some are offensive, some are flattering.

 

I think it actually opens up an interesting discussion about why girls think having an exposed midriff is attractive, and why a young girl values others' opinions, or cares that boys on the street think she is cute, which is a major preoccupation in American culture (yet it is belittlng to dress attractively for one's husbands, lets's all chuckle about that stupid advice), and it is very important for boys to know to treat people respectfully no matter how oddly or provocatively dressed. But as a theoretical question, it is worth wondering.

[kitten18]

 

That aside, Christian fashion doesn't exist. There is no mandated rubric for what is or is not acceptable Christian fashion other than personal opinion (which occassionally groups together in sects) and social trend.

 

I'm not a fan of midriffs or tramp stamps showing or pants with "Spank me" written on the bum, or nipple exposure either.

 

But I'm not wearing it or buying it for my kids. And those people may or may not be Christians to any degree of spiritual development, thus even if there were an accepted Christian fashion rubric to judge them against, it wouldn't apply to them anyways.

:hurray:

 

It's scientifically proven that you cannot be a 'real' Christian if you dance. You are especially awful if you dance with an exposed midriff.

 

Got it.

YOU better remember that. :D

 

We were at the beach and saw a young girl probably 5 or 6 with the location's name across the back of her shorts. My 15 yo ds was indignant about why she was dressed like and he knew exactly who was to blame: her parents.

 

To be honest, I am glad sometimes to have two boys.

:confused: I'm so confused. What was there to be indignant about?